budaatum:

There you go! The myths I created and religiously indoctrinated you with.

I'm talking about social myths.

tintingz:
The early humans had a belief not necessary an organized religion, maybe the word religion can now be used for it.

And secondly, there must be a time in history humans doesn't have beliefs.

There was never a time when humans did not have belief. They had beliefs precisely because they had no knowledge.

And religion is simply the process by which people were taught beliefs. Its like telling you Phytagoras Theorem without teaching you how it came about. You believe it because you are ignorant, but once you understand it you stop believing because you now know it.

tintingz:
I'm talking about social myths.

Stop splitting hairs. All myths are social or they are just crap you independently create in your own head and chose to believe. And trust me when I say I need you far more than to let you think up your own myths in your head by yourself, least you become uncontrollable like us!

budaatum:

If religion hadn't begun educating, there just might not have been anything to advance don't you think? Besides, shouldn't we agree on what has been instead of considering what might have been but wasn't?

Education came out of the insidous (note) need to indoctrinate. If I had no need to control your thinking, I just might have left you to educate yourself however you felt. But then, how would I enslave you for my own use if I hadn't indoctrinated you with religion?

I think credit should be given where due, myself, since one can't actually give it to what might have been, but wasn't. You must forgive me. Religion was the best I had at the time, and now, I use school instead. And note how I've figured out a way to make you pay more than tithes for it too.

Think carefully now please, then respond, because I value how well I indoctrinated you and would not like to be shown I have failed to make you understand the universe and the environment exactly how it profits me that you should. I did not build massive temples out of the benevolence of my heart!

Lmao, you should go for stand up comedy.

Religion introduced reading and written, skepticism advanced it. Without skepticism we would still believe the earth is flat.

Example are the Greek scholars.

budaatum:

Stop splitting hairs. All myths are social or they are just crap you independently create in your own head and chose to believe. And trust me when I say I need you far more than to let you think up your own myths in your head by yourself, least you become uncontrollable like us!

What do I choose to believe?

budaatum:

There was never a time when humans did not have belief. They had beliefs precisely because they had no knowledge.

And religion is simply the process by which people were taught beliefs. Its like telling you Phytagoras Theorem without teaching you how it came about. You believe it because you are ignorant, but once you understand it you stop believing because you now know it.

Do animals have beliefs?

tintingz:


What do I choose to believe?

Choose? You? In a world where I get to invest in temples and write books to indoctrinate you into my own myths with religion?

Nothing, of course! That would be like you using your own brain to think up things for yourself, and I just can't let you do that least you become like us!

budaatum:

Choose? You? In a world where I get to invest in temples and write books to indoctrinate you into my own myths with religion?

Nothing, of course! That would be like you using your own brain to think up things for yourself, and I just can't let you do that least you become like us!

You said I chose some believe in some things, and i ask you what are they?

tintingz:
Lmao, you should go for stand up comedy.

Religion introduced reading and written, skepticism advanced it. Without skepticism we would still believe the earth is flat.

Example are the Greek scholars.

Don't mind those silly Greeks, daring to doubt what I tell them! You, tingz are Nigerian I hope, stuck in the dark and ready to believe what I tell you to, though, I must admit that I'm losing control of you! See you here daring to think for yourself! Don't you know that will lead you to the mythical hell I created to scare you so you do not think for yourself?

You must believe, least you too become like us, knowing the Knowledge of the Good and the Evil and reaching out for the Fruits of the Tree of Life that will make you be free and live!

tintingz:


You said I chose some believe in some things, and i ask you what are they?

No, I never said you choose. You don't choose. I tell you what to believe! Its why I created religion and built temples and went up to heaven to bring you a book from God so that you may believe what I tell you.

You only get to choose when you realise you have a brain in your head and learn how to use it, and God forbid that happens least you become a living being like us!

tintingz:


Do animals have beliefs?

They must have. They must believe where their food is for instance, or else they would actually know where it is or starve to death.

tintingz:
The early humans had a belief not necessary an organized religion, maybe the word religion can now be used for it.

Those were the days! And then you increased in number and began teaching those beliefs to each other and then we organised and it became a religion.

We needed it see, religion. Or everyone might just have begun choosing to believe whatever they wanted, and that would have been rather messy because we would have found it difficult to control you if you all believed whatever you wanted. Its why we hide the knowledge of the Greeks from you see. Imagine the chaos that would have been created if you'd all learnt to become like those uncontrollable skeptical independently thinking Greeks! Yuk!

budaatum:

They must have. They must believe where their food is for instance, or else they would actually know where it is or starve to death.

For there to be a belief there must be a concept like the knowledge you said, animals don't have that.

Humans were once like that.

budaatum:

No, I never said you choose. You don't choose. I tell you what to believe! Its why I created religion and built temples and went up to heaven to bring you a book from God so that you may believe what I tell you.

You only get to choose when you realise you have a brain in your head and learn how to use it, and God forbid that happens least you become a living being like us!

Lmao!

Prophet Buda (salad macaroni salad)

budaatum:

Those were the days! And then you increased in number and began teaching those beliefs to each other and then we organised and it became a religion.

We needed it see, religion. Or everyone might just have begun choosing to believe whatever they wanted, and that would have been rather messy because we would have found it difficult to control you if you all believed whatever you wanted. Its why we hide the knowledge of the Greeks from you see. Imagine the chaos that would have been created if you'd all learnt to become like those uncontrollable skeptical independently thinking Greeks! Yuk!

Lol.

tintingz:
For there to be a belief there must be a concept like the knowledge you said, animals don't have that.

Humans were once like that.

I never said there has to be a "concept of knowledge" for there to be a belief, though one might call it that so long as you mean the 'existence of an awareness', which animals clearly must have.

An example would be a goat in the wild hearing the roar of a lion and believing it might make them disappear if they do not run. It might have gained this "concept of awareness" through the religion of its co-goats who also run if it had not been religionised into the "lion roar, run!" belief.

You just need imagine what a goat who never heard a lion roar would do. It might just stand there and be eaten by the lion, though the roar is likely to make it jump.

tintingz:
Lmao!

Prophet Buda (salad macaroni salad)

See! Just a few posts and you are already turning me into a prophet who is telling you what to believe.

I bet when I build a temple and claim I went up a mountain and brought these my own words down from a god you would say Ṣallā Allāhu ʿalayhi Wa-ʿala Āli-hi Wa-sallam buda!

tintingz:
The human society in general is built on social myth, religions are part of it.

It's been a while man.

We seem to be in agreement here.

No, religion gave a wrong answers or let me say a delusional answer to what humans seek for. Religion tell us Thor is responsible for Thunder and lightning, the planet Earth is rest on a tortoise back, sickness are caused by the gods, natural disasters are caused by the gods, a woman was created from a man's rib, a god vomited the world, the world was created in six days and so on. Are these truly the answers?

What's the purpose of life, where do we come from, where do we go, religions have no answer to these things, we only read some conflicting delusional answers.

I wasn't really arguing that the answers were correct or factual. Just that it gave an explanation to phenomena beyond their/our comprehension (at that time) even if incorrect.
It gave majority a peace of mind, a way to imagine it.

Humans has been proven to be moral without religion e.g the abolishment of slavery was a human change in morality which religion never did.

On the note of the abolishment of slavery. English Protestants played a role. A realisation of the idea that all men are created equal even if that's not factually true.
"The Committee for the Abolition of the Slave Trade was formed in 1787 by a group of Evangelical English Protestants allied with Quakers, to unite in their shared opposition to slavery and the slave trade. The Quakers had long viewed slavery as immoral, a blight upon humanity."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_Trade_Act_1807
Now I'm not saying that morality is exclusive to religion, an amoral person will always be amoral with or without a religion and vice versa.
my point is that some religions have some set of stories and instructions that if you acted it out as if they were true (a metatruth) has more benefits than down sides e.g. "love to your neighbor what you love for yourself"
"Everything happens for a reason"(this stops people from beating themselves when something bad happens to them speaking from personal experience).
"You will be rewarded or punished for all your good and bad deeds"

Religion tell us they have morality but in reality many of their practices are immoral.

Not fully disagreeing here
Some practices though, but not all. E.g. human sacrifices that existed in some ancient south American and African religions were without a doubt barbaric.
And the actions of self proclaimed jihadists.
That's why being an ideologue is problematic.

The early wars were carried out by religious people in the name of power.

Really depends on how early we are talking about here.
I would think our primitive tribalistic nature would had gave birth to the first tribe wars and wars for resources and religious wars would come up as an extension of that.

If not that most countries now adopt secular laws we will still be in dark ages fighting religious wars.

Religions doesn't unify all beliefs, it creates conflicts. Kindly read history.

The secular governments that formed in Europe and later in the Americas (I don't know about asia) came about through the interpretation of Matthew 22:21 Jesus said "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's."
A separation of church and state
(Although wars for national interest came to replace religious wars.)
Unfortunately Islam doesn't have such a thing as far as anyone is concerned at the moment.

Wasn't making the point that it unified all beliefs, I was making the point that it unified some (inherently different) people under a shared belief, but group identity is always going to create conflicts.

There are NO prove to this. It's normal to have emotional sensation when you listen to emotional things, I listen to music and feel emotional.

Near death experience is pseudoscience and has been debunked.

Ok.

The Soviet Union were wrong trying to eradicate religion, eradicating social myths is almost impossible because the society itself was founded on social myths. Religion in history also try to eradicate non-believers which they call apostasy, till date some religion like Islam sharia law still believe non-believers should be eradicate in the society.

Majority groups are not innocent in this, we just evolve from this mentality while some are still stuck to it.

So we can agree that no good comes from forcing one's ideals onto another.

If this is sarcasm I'm ok with it but if this is from your ass why do you think it's wise or reasonable to share it?

Actually yes it was and the fact that I wrote everything off the top of my head so you should take it with a teaspoon of salt and the things I said maybe wrong.

budaatum:

I never said there has to be a "concept of knowledge" for there to be a belief, though one might call it that so long as you mean the 'existence of an awareness', which animals clearly must have.

An example would be a goat in the wild hearing the roar of a lion and believing it might make them disappear if they do not run. It might have gained this "concept of awareness" through the religion of its co-goats who also run if it had not been religionised into the "lion roar, run!" belief.

You just need imagine what a goat who never heard a lion roar would do. It might just stand there and be eaten by the lion, though the roar is likely to make it jump.

Animals behave as they are naturally engineered like a code, they don't have concept of beliefs, they have no skill of knowledge.

tintingz:


Animals act as they are naturally engineered, they don't have concept of beliefs, they have no skill of knowledge.

Only a God can naturally engineer! A goat that has no knowledge of a lion might not fear being eaten!

I insist that it was religionised into running by its co-goats!

budaatum:

See! Just a few posts and you are already turning me into a prophet who is telling you what to believe.

I bet when I build a temple and claim I went up a mountain and brought these my own words down from a god you would say Ṣallā Allāhu ʿalayhi Wa-ʿala Āli-hi Wa-sallam buda!

Prophet Buda(Salad macaroni salad) what should I believe in?

tintingz:


Prophet Buda(Salad macaroni salad) what should I believe in?

Whatever I tell you to of course, unless you are Greek and are capable of considering available evidence, and looking for your own, which I hope you aren't or else you might become like us!


Have you ever wondered why animals avoid dangers by sensing some "signs" possibly related to the danger? A simple form of this phenomenon is called "fear conditioning", which is a type of learning commonly seen in every animal on the earth. By manipulating activity of specific neurons of the zebrafish brain, scientists at the National Institute of Genetics (NIG) in Japan have elucidated a neuronal population essential for fear conditioning in zebrafish. The study, published in the April 25 issue of BMC Biology, suggests that such a neural circuit essential for fear conditioning exists and is conserved during vertebrate evolution.

How can animals avoid dangers to survive? If animals experienced dangerous events together with some "signs", animals memorize the sign, became in fear of it, and perform fear responses, for instance an escape behavior. This is a type of learning, which is called "fear conditioning". In mammals including humans, the amygdala, one of the structures of the brain, plays an important role in fear conditioning.

https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2018-04/rooi-hca042318.php

tintingz:
But there must be a time they never had, that time brought out beliefs.

Then that would mean it was a time when humans lacked imagination and abstraction then.
Organized religion would had came about at around the beginning of something resembling civilization when rule and order would become useful.

tintingz:


Prophet Buda(Salad macaroni salad) what should I believe in?

I guess I have to settle for "Salad macaroni salad" or work harder for my Ṣallā Allāhu ʿalayhi Wa-ʿala Āli-hi Wa-sallam. But we made progess tingz. Thanks for understanding buda so far.

IMAliyu:

It's been a while man.

We seem to be in agreement here.

Yeah it's been a while.

I wasn't really arguing that the answers were correct or factual. Just that it gave an explanation to phenomena beyond their/our comprehension (at that time) even if incorrect.
It gave majority a peace of mind, a way to imagine it.

If it is fantasize or imaginary answers I will agree with you.

On the note of the abolishment of slavery. English Protestants played a role. A realisation of the idea that all men are created equal even if that's not factually true.
"The Committee for the Abolition of the Slave Trade was formed in 1787 by a group of Evangelical English Protestants allied with Quakers, to unite in their shared opposition to slavery and the slave trade. The Quakers had long viewed slavery as immoral, a blight upon humanity."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_Trade_Act_1807
Now I'm not saying that morality is exclusive to religion, an amoral person will always be amoral with or without a religion and vice versa.
my point is that some religions have some set of stories and instructions that if you acted it out as if they were true (a metatruth) has more benefits than down sides e.g. "love to your neighbor what you love for yourself"
"Everything happens for a reason"(this stops people from beating themselves when something bad happens to them speaking from personal experience).
"You will be rewarded or punished for all your good and bad deeds"

The point I'm making is religions like Islam, Judaism and Christianity dogmatism didn't abolish slavery, slavery was seen as normal and even divine order in the past.

Not fully disagreeing here
Some practices though, but not all. E.g. human sacrifices that existed in some ancient south American and African religions were without a doubt barbaric.
And the actions of self proclaimed jihadists.
That's why being an ideologue is problematic.

Good.

Really depends on how early we are talking about here.
I would think our primitive tribalistic nature would had gave birth to the first tribe wars and wars for resources and religious wars would come up as an extension of that.

Correct.

The secular governments that formed in Europe and later in the Americas (I don't know about asia) came about through the interpretation of Matthew 22:21 Jesus said "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's."
A separation of church and state
(Although wars for national interest came to replace religious wars.)
Unfortunately Islam doesn't have such a thing as far as anyone is concerned at the moment.

Care to provide this source?

Wasn't making the point that it unified all beliefs, I was making the point that it unified some (inherently different) people under a shared belief, but group identity is always going to create conflicts.

Ok

So we can agree that no good comes from forcing one's ideals onto another.

Touché

Actually yes it was and the fact that I wrote everything off the top of my head so you should take it with a teaspoon of salt and the things I said maybe wrong.

Ok.

budaatum:

I guess I have to settle for "Salad macaroni salad" or work harder for my Ṣallā Allāhu ʿalayhi Wa-ʿala Āli-hi Wa-sallam. But we made progess tingz. Thanks for understanding buda so far.

Lol.

IMAliyu:

Then that would mean it was a time when humans lacked imagination and abstraction then.
Organized religion would had came about at around the beginning of something resembling civilization when rule and order would become useful.

Exactly.

Touché.

tintingz:


There was no time a single man lived on earth.

Where is the evidence for that?

Rashduct4luv:


Where is the evidence for that?

There are various members of homo(genus) in human evolution, there's nothing like single couples or first man.

It's ridiculous to think some single couples were responsible for the population of this world and human race.

budaatum:

Only a God can naturally engineer! A goat that has no knowledge of a lion might not fear being eaten!

I insist that it was religionised into running by its co-goats!

Hahahahahaha.

budaatum:

Whatever I tell you to of course, unless you are Greek and are capable of considering available evidence, and looking for your own, which I hope you aren't or else you might become like us!


Have you ever wondered why animals avoid dangers by sensing some "signs" possibly related to the danger? A simple form of this phenomenon is called "fear conditioning", which is a type of learning commonly seen in every animal on the earth. By manipulating activity of specific neurons of the zebrafish brain, scientists at the National Institute of Genetics (NIG) in Japan have elucidated a neuronal population essential for fear conditioning in zebrafish. The study, published in the April 25 issue of BMC Biology, suggests that such a neural circuit essential for fear conditioning exists and is conserved during vertebrate evolution.

How can animals avoid dangers to survive? If animals experienced dangerous events together with some "signs", animals memorize the sign, became in fear of it, and perform fear responses, for instance an escape behavior. This is a type of learning, which is called "fear conditioning". In mammals including humans, the amygdala, one of the structures of the brain, plays an important role in fear conditioning.

https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2018-04/rooi-hca042318.php

Animals can recognize signs, fear etc these are natural instinct, but they don't have concept of knowledge that can develop some imaginary thoughts like myths and beliefs.

Animals don't have beliefs.

tintingz:


Animals can recognize signs, fear etc these are natural instinct, but they don't have concept of knowledge that can develop some imaginary thoughts like myths and beliefs.

Animals don't have beliefs.

I bet you've never had a dog or a cat or a chicken. If you ever did, I bet they never had the knowledge to recognise you as their owner, so they instinctively bit you and scratched you and pecked at you and never believed nor knew their food came from you.