First, where's everyone from the good old days? Jack Nozzle(LB), amanfrommars, plaetton, deep sight, etc? How're you all doing? It's literally been years.



To the topic then:
One common question from sceptics; if there is a God, why is there so much evil in this world. But what is good? And what is evil? We cannot define these terms without an objective transcendent moral standard. Thus recognition of evil serves to confirm your reasoning of the morality behind the events of the world around us.

Without God, there is no real good and evil, only evolutionary figments of the imagination, and whatever suits anyone. Therefore the question of evil in the world affirms the existence of a creator who has made moral beings.

Joshthefirst:
First, where's everyone from the good old days? Jack Nozzle(LB), amanfrommars, plaetton, deep sight, etc? How're you all doing? It's literally been years.



To the topic then:
One common question from sceptics; if there is a God, why is there so much evil in this world. But what is good? And what is evil? We cannot define these terms without an objective transcendent moral standard. Thus recognition of evil serves to confirm you reasoning of the morality behind the events of the world around us.

Without God, there is no real good and evil, only evolutionary figments of the imagination, and whatever suits anyone. Therefore the question of evil in the world affirms the existence of a creator who has made moral beings.

The bible says nothing about smoking weed. There is no scripture you can use to justify or criminalize it.

This goes to show that morality exists outside God and the bible.

God does not even make sense morally. God is a superpoweful alien that cannot understand human morality. We are supposedly like ants to God. Now imagine you see an ant in your food, you would kill it without and throw it away without losing any sleep. An ant's life is insignificant compared to yours. It is not as intelligent as a human being. Now imagine God looking at us humans as ants. We are insignificant to hos power and omnipotence. God can wipe us out without even blinking an eye. How can a God of so much power ever truly have empathy for humans? It is of no surprise that God smited humans like ants in the old testament. Drowned millions, bombed cities like Gomorrah and sent plagues to Egypt. An alien cannot have human empathy...human empathy is alien to it.

JeromeBlack:




The bible says nothing about smoking weed. There is no scripture you can use to justify or criminalize it.

This goes to show that morality exists outside God and the bible.

You don't understand my point. What is good and bad outside of the existence of an objective lawgiving God? It is mere pointless opinion. Nature, and evolution, is amoral. So if we stick to the materialistic godless pov, we are also truly amoral. Any sense of right and wrong is subjective social delusion, dependent on anyones whims. Abi?

God does not even make sense morally. God is a superpoweful alien that cannot understand human morality. We are supposedly like ants to God. Now imagine you see an ant in your food, you would kill it without and throw it away without losing any sleep. An ant's life is insignificant compared to yours. It is not as intelligent as a human being. Now imagine God looking at us humans as ants. We are insignificant to hos power and omnipotence. God can wipe us out without even blinking an eye. How can a God of so much power ever truly have empathy for humans? It is of no surprise that God smited humans like ants in the old testament. Drowned millions, bombed cities like Gomorrah and sent plagues to Egypt. An alien cannot have human empathy...human empathy is alien to it.

No. No. That's not who God is. God, is the self existent all powerful, Yes. But he is Love, and forgiving. He made us in His image, and He Loves with an everlasting Love. He is also a perfect Judge, and any evil doer like you and me, who does not trust in His mercy will experience the full brunt of His judgement. He is a consuming fire, and in a sense, He is your greatest and most unfathomable enemy, because of sin. He reduced the world's population to 8 people in a previous judgement. He is to be feared.

But the good news is that His Love has made a way for sinful men like us to escape Judgement through repentance and trusting in Jesus. That is the simple gospel.
No one is good. We all deserve death. But God is rich in mercy because while we were sinners, Christ died for us. A sacrifice for our sins. God is unfathomably greater than us, but His Love is also unfathomably great towards us. This is God.

First, op, is your false proposition of an "objective God". The fact that all subjects have their own subjective opinion about God and no objective definition of God exists, lays the lie to an "objective God". You say God is loving and a perfect judge while the first responder claims God "Drowned millions, bombed cities like Gomorrah and sent plagues to Egypt", and that's God from the same one book, which should make one wonder what readers of other God books make of God.

Second is the fact that morals are subjective to the moral individual or society. An example is homosexuality. Some nations imprison gays while some nations imprison you for discriminating against gays.

What is good or evil has no more to do with God than being a tool we use to educate humans about good and evil. Its an archaic tool at that and better tools have always existed to teach you the knowledge of good and evil if you would just pluck of the fruit of the tree and eat so your eyes may open.

budaatum:
First, op, is your false proposition of an "objective God". The fact that all subjects have their own subjective opinion about God and no objective definition of God exists, lays the lie to an "objective God". You say God is loving and a perfect judge while the first responder claims God "Drowned millions, bombed cities like Gomorrah and sent plagues to Egypt", and that's God from the same one book, which should make one wonder what readers of other God books make of God.

Second is the fact that morals are subjective to the moral individual or society. An example is homosexuality. Some nations imprison gays while some nations imprison you for discriminating against gays.

What is good or evil has no more to do with God than being a tool we use to educate humans about good and evil. Its an archaic tool at that and better tools have always existed to teach you the knowledge of good and evil if you would just pluck of the fruit of the tree and eat so your eyes may open.

If the definition of good depends on individual or society then there is no intrinsic good or evil.

First, Do you agree?


Second: Is rape wrong?

Joshthefirst:
If the definition of good depends on individual or society then there is no intrinsic good or evil.

First, Do you agree?


Second: Is rape wrong?

The definition of good does depend on individuals and society, and you'd know this if you know your history. There was a time when society deemed it ok to burn witches and stone gay people, but some societies have decided against both today, while some societies deem it ok to at least persecute gay people.

And I would not like anyone to rape me under any circumstance whatsoever, so it is wrong as far as I am concerned.

Good and evil are only but a man's perspective, nature knows no such...

I see both good and evil as siblings of the same parents.. As they can't exist independent of each other.. What is the purpose of good without evil..?
Who is the judge of what is right or what is wrong?.. They both serve as check and balance to each other..
Well if it will interest you :, God is the creator of both and responsible for both..

budaatum:

The definition of good does depend on individuals and society, and you'd know this if you know your history. There was a time when society deemed it ok to burn witches and stone gay people, but some societies have decided against both today, while some societies deem it ok to at least persecute gay people.

If the definition of good and bad does depend on individuals and society, it goes to say that there is no intrinsic good or evil, just individual and societal whims, i.e, nothing is intrinsically good or evil irrespective of anyone’s perspective, everything is relative, abi? This means that what a society may consider good can simply be considered bad by me. Good and bad is relative to us alone. Not any higher power. Why do we then try to question the existence of a higher power based on our relative notions of good and evil? Why do we judge God with our own moral compasses when our morality is relative also? Why do we exclude God from the right to determine His own morality?

budaatum:
And I would not like anyone to rape me under any circumstance whatsoever, so it is wrong as far as I am concerned.

Well, I could say i’d like to rape you under all circumstances, I could say raping you is okay to me and is right as far as I’m concerned. What makes your morality better than mine? And what right do you have to tell anyone that what they are doing is wrong if their morality is based on their opinion? Does it depend on who has more power?

See the problem?

sonmvayina:
I see both good and evil as siblings of the same parents.. As they can't exist independent of each other.. What is the purpose of good without evil..?
Who is the judge of what is right or what is wrong?.. They both serve as check and balance to each other..
Well if it will interest you :, God is the creator of both and responsible for both..

hmmm. In your previous post you said good and evil are mans perspective, now you go on to say God is the creator of both. That’s contradictory. Choose one perspective and we can go on from there. Is good and evil solely man’s perspective of events, or is God the transcendent and ultimate moral arbiter?

Joshthefirst:
hmmm. In your previous post you said good and evil are mans perspective, now you go on to say God is the creator of both. That’s contradictory. Choose one perspective and we can go on from there. Is good and evil solely man’s perspective of events, or is God the transcendent and ultimate moral arbiter?

It is only man that judges action as good or evil.. They both mean the same thing to God..

He creates both.. "I form the light and create Darkness, I make peace and evil, I the Lord do all these things" Isaiah 45 :7

"from where does good and evil comes, if not from the mouth of the Lord ".. Lamentations 3 :38

In my opinion, a society that intends to develop shouldn’t base its opinion of what is good or evil on a ‘God’; that has served its purpose.

Slavery was either condoned or highly encouraged in most of the world’s major religions. I doubt if anyone would want to be a slave in this day and age.

sonmvayina:


It is only man that judges action as good or evil.. They both mean the same thing to God..

He creates both.. "I form the light and create Darkness, I make peace and evil, I the Lord do all these things" Isaiah 45 :7

"from where does good and evil comes, if not from the mouth of the Lord ".. Lamentations 3 :38

Can you clarify this? Good and evil mean the same thing to God?

Ola17:
In my opinion, a society that intends to develop shouldn’t base its opinion of what is good or evil on a ‘God’; that has served its purpose.

Slavery was either condoned or highly encouraged in most of the world’s major religions. I doubt if anyone would want to be a slave in this day and age.

What then should a society base its opinion of what is good and evil then?

The Nazi German society determine that their race was the purest on earth, and killing Jews was good, and the rest of us were second class. If they had won world war 2, their morality would be mainstream and enforced. Would this be good?

Joshthefirst:
Can you clarify this? Good and evil mean the same thing to God?

Yes.. He creates, he also destroys.. I will look for the exact quote for you.. Both light and darkness means the same thing to him.. He created both..

God is not a man or human being.. It is because of our senses that we can perceive both and make distinction.. But God is not one of us... To him everything is the same..

sonmvayina:


Yes.. He creates, he also destroys.. I will look for the exact quote for you..

He creates and He destroys, I agree, but this doesn’t mean that good and evil mean the same thing to God. Good and evil is the same thing means good is evil and evil is good.

Joshthefirst:
He creates and He destroys, I agree, but this doesn’t mean that good and evil mean the same thing to God. Good and evil is the same thing means good is evil and evil is good.

You are learning very fast... Singularity rather than duality..

sonmvayina:


You are learning very fast... Singularity rather than duality..

If good is evil and evil is good, then the very concept of good or evil is meaningless. That’s not God, that’s madness.

Joshthefirst:
What then should a society base its opinion of what is good and evil then?

The Nazi German society determine that their race was the purest on earth, and killing Jews was good, and the rest of us were second class. If they had won world war 2, their morality would be mainstream and enforced. Would this be good?

The Jews somehow believe they are the chosen race and every other race is second class.

You don’t need God to tell you that murder is wrong do you?

Joshthefirst:
If good is evil and evil is good, then the very concept of good or evil is meaningless. That’s not God, that’s madness.

It is you who is making the judgement... Not God.. Who drowned the whole world during the time of Noah?. Who killed the Egyptian first born?.. Or you want to tell me those are good?

Joshthefirst:
He creates and He destroys, I agree, but this doesn’t mean that good and evil mean the same thing to God. Good and evil is the same thing means good is evil and evil is good.

Isaiah 45:7

King James Bible
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things

sonmvayina:


It is you who is making the judgement... Not God.. Who drowned the whole world during the time of Noah?. Who killed the Egyptian first born?.. Or you want to tell me those are good?

It is also 'you', who wrote that a God "drowned the whole world during the time of Noah" and a God "killed the Egyptian first born". For all we know, those things just happened (if they did happen at all that is), and you just wrote "God done it", when it might have as little to do with God as corona virus or the current locust invasion or the fires in Australia.

Ola17:


The Jews somehow believe they are the chosen race and every other race is second class.

You don’t need God to tell you that murder is wrong do you?

Interesting. You seem to imply I should somehow intuitively know murder is wrong. If this is true, you’re appealing to something other than ourselves, you are no longer a moral relativist.

sonmvayina:


It is you who is making the judgement... Not God.. Who drowned the whole world during the time of Noah?. Who killed the Egyptian first born?.. Or you want to tell me those are good?

You seem to confuse intrinsic evil with justice. Let’s say I sentenced a man to the electric chair for raping and murdering three women, in a sense I’m bring “evil” to that man, but actually, I’m bringing him justice. This is what the Bible means when it says God brings evil and calamity as well as good.

As for the bolded, you also seem to imply I should know by intuition what is good and what is bad. If true, this means that morality is not determined simply by man’s whims, there is an intuition placed in every man by a higher power, a conscience is placed in man to know right from wrong. Morality is not relative in the end.

hahn:


Isaiah 45:7

King James Bible
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things

Yes. God can bring calamity and evil upon people. He brought a flood that reduced human population to 8 people, as someone pointed out. This doesn’t mean that good is evil and evil is good. That doesn’t make sense. This very verse you posted gives a clear distinction between good and evil, light and darkness.

Joshthefirst:
You seem to confuse intrinsic evil with justice. Let’s say I sentenced a man to the electric chair for raping and murdering three women, in a sense I’m bring “evil” to that man, but actually, I’m bringing him justice. This is what the Bible means when it says God brings evil and calamity as well as good.

As for the bolded, you also seem to imply I should know by intuition what is good and what is bad. If true, this means that morality is not determined simply by man’s whims, there is an intuition placed in every man by a higher power, a conscience is placed in man to know right from wrong. Morality is not relative in the end.

Define evil..

sonmvayina:


Define evil..

Evil is defined as profoundly immoral and wicked

budaatum:

It is also 'you', who wrote that a God "drowned the whole world during the time of Noah" and a God "killed the Egyptian first born". For all we know, those things just happened (if they did happen at all that is), and you just wrote "God done it", when it might have as little to do with God as corona virus or the current locust invasion or the fires in Australia.

What or who is God?

Joshthefirst:
Evil is defined as profoundly immoral and wicked

Like?

sonmvayina:


What or who is God?

A figment of the imagination that we read about in books.

What or who is God to you?

sonmvayina:


Like?

Rape, murder, adultery, lies, greed, blasphemy, idolatry, etc

Joshthefirst:
Interesting. You seem to imply I should somehow intuitively know murder is wrong. If this is true, you’re appealing to something other than ourselves, you are no longer a moral relativist.

Even in lesser evolved animals, like say a pack of wolves, you hardly see them kill each other. It is natural that every member of a society be it humans or wild animals behave in such a way that will guarantee the survival and prosperity of such a society, else the individual will be treated as a societal misfit/criminal.

How does intuitively knowing Right and wrong = appealing to something other than ourselves? That is counterintuitive.