advocatejare:
Let me show you how the Quran led me to Christ:

It is stated in the Quran that Jesus didn't die, that he was raised to heaven in his body and spirit.

"Allah raised him (Jesus) up (with body and soul) to Himself (in the heavens). Allah is All-Powerful, All-Wise." (An-Nisaa 4:158)

As a Muslim we were made to believe that Moses prophesied about Mohammad in Deuteronomy 18:15 and in verse 20 of the same chapter Moses said any fabricator or false prophet that tried to impersonate the Prophet he talked about shall die.

Deuteronomy 18:20
But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’

Only Mohammed tried to deceive people that he was the Prophet Moses talked about and Mohammed eventually died,

Jesus that also said he was the Prophet Moses talked about did not die according to the Quran, and that confirms his authenticity, that among others led me to Christ.

As for Christians, we believe that Christ died for just 3 days and resurrected again and since death could not hold him down, he resurrected with his body and soul intact and then ascended to heaven and remains alive till forever, whereas Mohammed is dead.

from frypan to fire. .
If you are rational being, you will soon tell us how bible lead you to unbeliever

Xmuslim:
from frypan to fire. .
If you are rational being, you will soon tell us how bible lead you to unbeliever

If you're a rational being you will know that there's a Supreme being who rules over the whole universe

advocatejare:

If you're a rational being you will know that there's a Supreme being who rules over the whole universe

You immediately concluded that I don't believe in the power that cause the existence of the universe.

While I don't know for sure the initiator of everything we see today, my mind at the moment can't conceive a notion that the universe came from nothing. Thus, currently I have a space in my mind that belief there is probably a supreme being that created everything we see today.

However, I have not seen a logical proof that would convince me that such being would require human to worship him or belief certain thing (such as trinity or tawheed) before he would grant them eternal blessing.

Also, I haven't seen a reasonable explanation that such being would create hell fire and promise to burn people eternally in it. This is not a justice system.

In addition, if I knew my child would grow up to be a dweller of eternal hell, I would rather refused to give birth to him because of my empathy. If God have the knowledge that some people would misbehave and end up in hell for eternity , why did he create them? Does it mean that I'm more merciful than God

Conclusion, not believing in religion does not mean one does not believe in the existence of certain force/power that is behind the formation of everything we see today. I believe doing good to fellow human and animals to the best of one's ability is the wish of such supreme being. Both Bible and Qur'an fail in this aspect. They placed believe over goodness

Xmuslim:


You immediately concluded that I don't believe in the power that cause the existence of the universe.

While I don't know for sure the initiator of everything we see today, my mind at the moment can't conceive a notion that the universe came from nothing. Thus, currently I have a space in my mind that belief there is probably a supreme being that created everything we see today.

However, I have not seen a logical proof that would convince me that such being would require human to worship him or belief certain thing (such as trinity or tawheed) before he would grant them eternal blessing.

Also, I haven't seen a reasonable explanation that such being would create hell fire and promise to burn people eternally in it. This is not a justice system.

In addition, if I knew my child would grow up to be a dweller of eternal hell, I would rather refused to give birth to him because of my empathy. If God have the knowledge that some people would misbehave and end up in hell for eternity , why did he create them? Does it mean that I'm more merciful than God

Conclusion, not believing in religion does not mean one does not believe in the existence of certain force/power that is behind the formation of everything we see today. I believe doing good to fellow human and animals to the best of one's ability is the wish of such supreme being. Both Bible and Qur'an fail in this aspect. They placed believe over goodness

Christ's teachings balanced the two: believe and be good. Love your neighbor as yourself, pray for those who persecute you. And the life he lived reflected it, it's a life worthy of emulation

Same cant be said about Muhammad's teaching which was to believe unconditionally and to be brutal, heartless, being a wife beater, liar, fornicator, adulterer, murderer, thief, and any bad thing you can imagine.

The life Muhammad lived is not worthy of emulation.

I studied the two religious leaders: their messages and their way of life and I knew it's only sanity to want to be like Jesus and never like Mohammad.

Xmuslim:


You immediately concluded that I don't believe in the power that cause the existence of the universe.

While I don't know for sure the initiator of everything we see today, my mind at the moment can't conceive a notion that the universe came from nothing. Thus, currently I have a space in my mind that belief there is probably a supreme being that created everything we see today.

However, I have not seen a logical proof that would convince me that such being would require human to worship him or belief certain thing (such as trinity or tawheed) before he would grant them eternal blessing.

Also, I haven't seen a reasonable explanation that such being would create hell fire and promise to burn people eternally in it. This is not a justice system.

In addition, if I knew my child would grow up to be a dweller of eternal hell, I would rather refused to give birth to him because of my empathy. If God have the knowledge that some people would misbehave and end up in hell for eternity , why did he create them? Does it mean that I'm more merciful than God

That's where you got it wrong
Humans are created with freewill, you've been given opportunity to choose which path to follow and the punishment/reward attached to your choice.

God wouldn't force you to serve him, the choice is yours. It's either you serve God or you follow the devil.

Hell wasn't made for man, it was made for Satan and Satan has been looking for as many human that will join him in hell as possible.

Same way prison wasn't made for law abiding citizens, but only for criminals so if you choose to be criminal and you're thrown into the prison, don't blame your government for being wicked, blame yourself for being a law breaker

advocatejare:


That's where you got it wrong
Humans are created with freewill, you've been given opportunity to choose which path to follow and the punishment/reward attached to your choice.

God wouldn't force you to serve him, the choice is yours. It's either you serve God or you follow the devil.

Hell wasn't made for man, it was made for Satan and Satan has been looking for as many human that will join him in hell as possible.

Same way prison wasn't made for law abiding citizens, but only for criminals so if you choose to be criminal and you're thrown into the prison, don't blame your government for being wicked, blame yourself for being a law breaker

The comparison of the prison with what we're discussing is flawed.

I'm not religious and I'm not evil. I have conscience and empathy. Same with many non religious individuals. So not believing in something that lack evidence does not make one criminal

Eternal Hell is not for those that do evil. It is for those that don't believe in your doctrine and didn't worship God in your way.


Other sins including murder are forgivable once you give your life to christ. Tell me you don't believe in this

What would God benefit from our service/worship. Can you answer this please. If I were a God, I would not need anyone to worship me let alone use it as a criteria for the judgment.

If God created us simply so that we would worship him, it means he is not self sufficient. It means without us worshiping him he will have deficiency.

advocatejare:

Christ's teachings balanced the two: believe and be good. Love your neighbor as yourself, pray for those who persecute you. And the life he lived reflected it, it's a life worthy of emulation

Same cant be said about Muhammad's teaching which was to believe unconditionally and to be brutal, heartless, being a wife beater, liar, fornicator, adulterer, murderer, thief, and any bad thing you can imagine.

The life Muhammad lived is not worthy of emulation.

I studied the two religious leaders: their messages and their way of life and I knew it's only sanity to want to be like Jesus and never like Mohammad.

What would you do if you see a verse of the Bible that contradict established scientific fact?

What would you do if you see unresolvable contradictions in the bible?

Of course any Muslim that attempt to emulate Muhammad 100% in this era will be seen as a very bad person. So, I will leave the part of Muhammad and Islam for Muslims to answer. I'm not one of them.

Xmuslim:


What would you do if you see a verse of the Bible that contradict established scientific fact?

What would you do if you see unresolvable contradictions in the bible?

Of course any Muslim that attempt to emulate Muhammad 100% in this era will be seen as a very bad person. So, I will leave the part of Muhammad and Islam for Muslims to answer. I'm not one of them.

Unlike the Quran, Christians didn't say that the Bible was written by God, Christians know that the Bible was written by men like you and I. Some part of the Bible are historical accounts of the Jews, some were written by eye witnesses (and the fact that the two of us were present at the same scene of an event doesn't mean that we will write the same thing verbatim and with the same degree of accuracy), some were opinions of the religious leaders at that time and so on.

But the fundamental teachings of the Bible from the Old Testament to the New, remain the same which are: Satan revolted against God and wanted to elevate himself above God, he was then punished for his crime by being banished from heaven and sentenced to eternity in Hellfire , and in order to revenge Satan decided to corrupt humanity by making us turn against God's law and choose idols as objects of worship(another revolution) but God decided to give humanity another chance (because unlike Satan that knew the consequences of his actions before he committed his crime, the first man and woman didn't know, they were deceived by the same Satan)

And that other chance for humanity was blood atonement for their sins, and that's why initially God said anyone that commit sins should have an animal killed and blood of the animal will be used to cleanse his sin(the practice Islam retains till date by making animal sacrifice every year during eid al-Adha, during aqiqah, during house warming, during special prayers etc even though God had provided another alternative and ended the era of animal sacrifice even before the birth of Muhammad)

God decided to send Jesus whom he called his son, (which was wrongly translated as begotten son, Jesus was simply the only gene, only kind of God.

This is the word that was translated as "only begotten" μονογενῆ it's a Greek word pronounced as mounogenḗs which is pronounced as /mo.no.ɡe.nɛ̌ːs/ which means "only of a kind "
μόνος (mónos, “only”) +‎ -γενής (-genḗs, “of a kind”)
https://biblehub.com/text/john/3-16.htm)

It was the teachings of Christ that further informed us about how we had sinned against God, what we should stop doing and what we should be doing that God wanted. Christ preached purity, love, compassion and empathy.

He then decided to pay for the sin humanity committed through Adam and Eve by giving his life and blood so that we all could start our lives on a clean sheet and not starting from the sin of our ancestors.

So now that our ancestral sin has been forgiven, following Christ's teachings is the only way we can avoid committing sins that will make up to revolt against God's command again to follow the path of Satan and then end up in hellfire that was made for Satan.

Xmuslim:


The comparison of the prison with what we're discussing is flawed.

I'm not religious and I'm not evil. I have conscience and empathy. Same with many non religious individuals. So not believing in something that lack evidence does not make one criminal

Since all humanity descended from Abraham and Eve and they both committed sin, humanity by default became sinners. It was that sin that Christ paid for and you can't benefit from that payment if you don't believe that Christ actually made the payment.

Eternal Hell is not for those that do evil. It is for those that don't believe in your doctrine and didn't worship God in your way.

If that's what the Quran teaches, that's not what the Bible teaches

Other sins including murder are forgivable once you give your life to christ. Tell me you don't believe in this

of course I do, and that's to tell you that God is not interested in burning any human in Hellfire for eternity, all he wants is genuine repentance from your sins and stop committing further sins

What would God benefit from our service/worship. Can you answer this please. If I were a God, I would not need anyone to worship me let alone use it as a criteria for the judgment. If God created us simply so that we would worship him, it means he is not self sufficient. It means without us worshiping him he will have deficiency.

You're yet to free yourself from Quranic teachings. God didn't say in the Bible that you were created for the sole purpose of worshipping him, that's the Quranic account.

Yahweh created humans in order for us to occupy the Earth and take charge here while living by his rule, God has numerous angels worshipping day and night already.

But if at all you must worship anyone, it should be your creator and not Satan

advocatejare:
Since all humanity descended from Abraham and Eve and they both committed sin, humanity by default became sinners. It was that sin that Christ paid for and you can't benefit from that payment if you don't believe that Christ actually made the payment.


If that's what the Quran teaches, that's not what the Bible teaches


of course I do, and that's to tell you that God is not interested in burning any human in Hellfire for eternity, all he wants is genuine repentance from your sins and stop committing further sins



You're yet to free yourself from Quranic teachings. God didn't say in the Bible that you were created for the sole purpose of worshipping him, that's the Quranic account.

Yahweh created humans in order for us to occupy the Earth and take charge here while living by his rule, God has numerous angels worshipping day and night already.

But if at all you must worship anyone, it should be your creator and not Satan

The bolded part negate all your points and that's one of the major problems of religion.

Anyone that doesn't believe in your doctrine can't benefit from the eternal blessing. If I don't believe jesus die for my sin because of lack of evidence, I'm condemn to hell for eternity, even if I'm a very good person. This is extremely ridiculous

Even the concept of original sin is against common sense. But I don't want to argue that now

advocatejare:

Unlike the Quran, Christians didn't say that the Bible was written by God, Christians know that the Bible was written by men like you and I. Some part of the Bible are historical accounts of the Jews, some were written by eye witnesses (and the fact that the two of us were present at the same scene of an event doesn't mean that we will write the same thing verbatim and with the same degree of accuracy), some were opinions of the religious leaders at that time and so on.

But the fundamental teachings of the Bible from the Old Testament to the New, remain the same which are: Satan revolted against God and wanted to elevate himself above God, he was then punished for his crime by being banished from heaven and sentenced to eternity in Hellfire , and in order to revenge Satan decided to corrupt humanity by making us turn against God's law and choose idols as objects of worship(another revolution) but God decided to give humanity another chance (because unlike Satan that knew the consequences of his actions before he committed his crime, the first man and woman didn't know, they were deceived by the same Satan)

And that other chance for humanity was blood atonement for their sins, and that's why initially God said anyone that commit sins should have an animal killed and blood of the animal will be used to cleanse his sin(the practice Islam retains till date by making animal sacrifice every year during eid al-Adha, during aqiqah, during house warming, during special prayers etc even though God had provided another alternative and ended the era of animal sacrifice even before the birth of Muhammad)

God decided to send Jesus whom he called his son, (which was wrongly translated as begotten son, Jesus was simply the only gene, only kind of God.

This is the word that was translated as "only begotten" μονογενῆ it's a Greek word pronounced as mounogenḗs which is pronounced as /mo.no.ɡe.nɛ̌ːs/ which means "only of a kind "
μόνος (mónos, “only”) +‎ -γενής (-genḗs, “of a kind”)
https://biblehub.com/text/john/3-16.htm)

It was the teachings of Christ that further informed us about how we had sinned against God, what we should stop doing and what we should be doing that God wanted. Christ preached purity, love, compassion and empathy.

He then decided to pay for the sin humanity committed through Adam and Eve by giving his life and blood so that we all could start our lives on a clean sheet and not starting from the sin of our ancestors.

So now that our ancestral sin has been forgiven, following Christ's teachings is the only way we can avoid committing sins that will make up to revolt against God's command again to follow the path of Satan and then end up in hellfire that was made for Satan.

1. The concept of original sin is flawed only if you can view it from a non-Christian percpective. Why would God punish me for the sin committed before I was born. That is not justice

2. Even if you are unable to accept the injustice in the original sin concept. The atonement of the sin via the killing of anyone let alone the only begotten son of God is laughable. God is omnipotent and omniscient. Why would he need a blood before forgiving a sin? This is unbelievable

Xmuslim:


1. The concept of original sin is flawed only if you can view it from a non-Christian percpective. Why would God punish me for the sin committed before I was born. That is not justice

But it's not injustice if you inherit your parents' intelligence, physical characteristics, wealth, and properties right? Wont you call it injustice for someone else to inherit your parents properties? The same way you're entitled to their gains is the same way you're entitled to their pains, the original sin of the first parents.

2. Even if you are unable to accept the injustice in the original sin concept. The atonement of the sin via the killing of anyone let alone the only begotten son of God is laughable. God is omnipotent and omniscient. Why would he need a blood before forgiving a sin? This is unbelievable

It's a spiritual law, the reason God made it so, no one knows but God didn't want to break his own law that's why a more potent and final blood has to be shared.

The religion like Islam that didn't believe Christ's blood paid the price are still shedding animals blood till date to atone for their sins

Xmuslim:


The bolded part negate all your points and that's one of the major problems of religion.

Anyone that doesn't believe in your doctrine can't benefit from the eternal blessing. If I don't believe jesus die for my sin because of lack of evidence, I'm condemn to hell for eternity, even if I'm a very good person. This is extremely ridiculous

You sound funny. You don't believe in the original sin, you don't believe Christ died for your sins and yet you want to have the sin you never believed our ancestors committed, to be forgiven.

It's like eating your cake and still having it.

That's why I said earlier that you have a free will, a choice. God is not forcing you to believe in anything but he has spelt out consequences for your actions or inactions, the choice you make is strictly yours but each choice comes with its consequences. That's fair enough

advocatejare:

Show the proof from the Quran that the gospel is lost, and at what point did the gospel get lost?

Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And in their footsteps, We sent ‘Isa, son of Maryam, confirming the Tawrat that had come before him, and We gave him the Injil, in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Tawrat that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for Al-Muttaqoon (the pious).” [5:46]

This means the Injil was given to 'Isa and not written by Mathew, Mark, Luke, John or Paul.

advocatejare:

The Christian Gospel is not a book, gospel means good news, the good news that Jesus preached and was recorded by his followers.

Your own form of Gospel of cos.

advocatejare:
You claim the gospel is lost but the authors of the Quran plagiarized the same gospel:

Plagiarism refers to using some other person's ideas and information without acknowledging that specific person as the source.

The same Allaah that sent Abraham, Moses and others is the same that sent Muhammad. This is the confirmation of other scriptures that came before it. The former scriptures were revealed by Allaah too!

The line has been drawn as the Injil we believe in was revealed by Allaah to 'Isa while your own Gospel was written by humans!

advocatejare:
The books that were not lost and were preserved more than 500 years after Christ died and resurrected for Muhammad was was born around 570 A.D. to have seen the Jews and Christians is Mecca reading is the book you're now claiming is lost.
At what point did it get lost?

Even Sahih Bukhari Vol 1 Book 1 Hadith 3 narrated how Waraqa, Khadijah's cousin used to write from the Gospel in Hebrew language.
That's to tell you that the Gospel was very much available during the time of Muhammad and it was the same Waraqa that helped Muhammad to erroneously confirm that it was Gabriel that was revealing things to Muhammad

Where is the evidence that the Injil Waraqa was reading was the Gospel according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, John or letters of Paul written to some Churches somewhere?
The Gospels in NT is a biography of Jesus not a revelation from Allaah.

You are using Waraqah to confirm that the Injil was not lost but on the other hand rejecting Waraqah's opinion that Muhammad was a messenger of Allaah inspired by the Angel Gabriel!

advocatejare:
As for the Quran, Muhammad didn't write it either, the first complete Quran was compiled 20years after Muhammad had died, and the other manuscripts were burnt. The current Quran is the handiwork of Ibn Mujahid

I have disproved the above liars of yours before why bring it again?

Rashduct4luv:


Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And in their footsteps, We sent ‘Isa, son of Maryam, confirming the Tawrat that had come before him, and We gave him the Injil, in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Tawrat that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for Al-Muttaqoon (the pious).” [5:46]

This means the Injil was given to 'Isa and not written by Mathew, Mark, Luke, John or Paul.

The line has been drawn as the Injil we believe in was revealed by Allaah to 'Isa while your own Gospel was written by humans!

So where is the Quran given to Muhammad, written and published by Muhammad?

Where is the evidence that the Injil Waraqa was reading was the Gospel according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, John or letters of Paul written to some Churches somewhere?
The Gospels in NT is a biography of Jesus not a revelation from Allaah.

If the injeel waraqa read is different from the gospel of today, that means the "original" gospel was available at the time of Muhammad and Waraqa. So at what point did the "original" injeel get lost? I'm waiting for your answer.

You are using Waraqah to confirm that the Injil was not lost but on the other hand rejecting Waraqah's opinion that Muhammad was a messenger of Allaah inspired by the Angel Gabriel!

Can you show me from the authentic Hadiths where Waraqa was quoted saying that the jinn that tormented Muhammad in the cave of Hira was Angel Gabriel.

Show me the proof and I'll take you seriously, I will accept that you're knowledgeable in Islam

I have disproved the above liars of yours before why bring it again?

You disproved what? When I showed u from Sahih Bukhari 6:61:510 how Zaid compiled and standardized the Quran after Muhammad's death and burnt the other manuscripts , an act which was never commanded by Allah or by Muhammad before he died.

advocatejare:
You sound funny. You don't believe in the original sin, you don't believe Christ died for your sins and yet you want to have the sin you never believed our ancestors committed, to be forgiven.

It's like eating your cake and still having it.

That's why I said earlier that you have a free will, a choice. God is not forcing you to believe in anything but he has spelt out consequences for your actions or inactions, the choice you make is strictly yours but each choice comes with its consequences. That's fair enough

While we may have diffences of opinion. I think we all agree that it is not fair for God to bass our salvation on a concept that is debatable and questionable such as original sin.

Let me give a scenario. I establish a school and the first child that enrolled committed an offence. However, I promise to punish all subsequent pupils for the crime they knew nothing about. Is this fair?

After many generations, I brought my child to the school and ask the pupils to kill him because I can only forgive them if they spil my son's blood. They killed him and I forgive them but again promise that the future generations must belief that my child died for their sin, otherwise they will be punished.

I believe the scenario is similar to the doctrine Christianity preach. Kindly note that we are only sharing knowledge here, if being a Christian is what makes you happy, then no one should deny you the privilege. However that doesn't mean that Christianity is correct. Islam is flawed too

Xmuslim:


While we may have diffences of opinion. I think we all agree that it is not fair for God to bass our salvation on a concept that is debatable and questionable such as original sin.

Let me give a scenario. I establish a school and the first child that enrolled committed an offence. However, I promise to punish all subsequent pupils for the crime they knew nothing about. Is this fair?

After many generations, I brought my child to the school and ask the pupils to kill him because I can only forgive them if they spil my son's blood. They killed him and I forgive them but again promise that the future generations must belief that my child died for their sin, otherwise they will be punished.

The first child that sinned in your school is not your parent so the two scenarios are not similar

If you can still lay claim to your ancestral land or other valuable inheritance, if a prince can still lay claim to a throne only because his great grandfathers were once kings, if you can lay for things just because your ancestors once owned such things, then you should understand the concept of original sin. You can't embrace the good things your ancestors left behind and at the same time say the bad things they left behind can't be yours.

Kindly note that we are only sharing knowledge here, if being a Christian is what makes you happy, then no one should deny you the privilege. However that doesn't mean that Christianity is correct. Islam is flawed too

As it is today, only two group of religion claim to be serving the Supreme God of the universe, Christianity(christianity found its root in Judaism) and Islam.

The practice and the teaching of the two religions and the two religious leaders are direct opposite. Islam is the direct opposite of the teaching of Christ and Christianity, one of these religion is the truth, and the other one is the counterfeit.

Both Christianity and Islam claim their roots from Judaism and the God of Judaism talked about holiness, talked against adultery, covetousness, idolatry, and all forms of sins. Which is also what Christianity preaches but Islam doesn't.

It's saner to choose Christianity when left with the two options, if they actually claim to originate from Judaism and claim to worship the same God in Judaism.

advocatejare:

So where is the Quran given to Muhammad, written and published by Muhammad?

Muhammad is proven to be unlettered so he never wrote the Qur'an but he recites it. His companions wrote for him.

Narrated Abu-Huraira:
Gabriel used to repeat the recitation of the Qur'an with the Prophet (ﷺ) once a year, but he repeated it twice with him in the year he died. The Prophet (ﷺ) used to stay in I`tikaf for ten days every year (in the month of Ramadan), but in the year of his death, he stayed in I`tikaf for twenty days.
Bukahr 4998, Book 66, Hadith 20

advocatejare:

If the injeel waraqa read is different from the gospel of today, that means the "original" gospel was available at the time of Muhammad and Waraqa. So at what point did the "original" injeel get lost? I'm waiting for your answer.

You should prove that the injil Waraqa read was the same as the biography of Jesus you have today. The onus is on you not on me!
I have given you a verse that the Injil was revealed and not written by Matthew and co. And no Christian scholar will ever claim the Bible was revealed from God. Paul wrote letters in it too. Was Paul letters too among what Waraqah had?

advocatejare:

Can you show me from the authentic Hadiths where Waraqa was quoted saying that the jinn that tormented Muhammad in the cave of Hira was Angel Gabriel.
Show me the proof and I'll take you seriously, I will accept that you're knowledgeable in Islam

No Jinn tormented Muhammad in the cave of Hira.

advocatejare:
You disproved what? When I showed u from Sahih Bukhari 6:61:510 how Zaid compiled and standardized the Quran after Muhammad's death and burnt the other manuscripts , an act which was never commanded by Allah or by Muhammad before he died.

You said the Qur'an was compiled 20 years after the death of Muhammad. This is a big lie!

The Qur’aan continued to be preserved in the hearts of the Sahaabah who had memorized it, and on the skins and other materials until the time of the caliph Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq (may Allaah be pleased with him). During the Riddah wars many of the Sahaabah who had memorized the Qur’aan were killed, and Abu Bakr (may Allaah be pleased with him) was afraid that the Qur’aan would be lost. So he consulted the senior Sahaabah about compiling the Qur’aan in a single book so that it would remain preserved and would not be lost. He entrusted this mission to the chief of memorizers Zayd ibn Thaabit (may Allaah be pleased with him). Al-Bukhaari narrated in his Saheeh (4986) that Zayd ibn Thaabit (may Allaah be pleased with him) said:

Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq sent for me when the people of al-Yamaamah had been killed [i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against the false prophet Musaylimah]. (I went to him) and found ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), “ ‘Umar has come to me and said: ‘Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the Qur'aan (i.e. those who knew the Qur’aan by heart) on the day of the battle of al-Yamaamah, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur’aan may be lost. Therefore I suggest that you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur’aan be collected.” I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not do?" 'Umar said, "By Allah, this is something good." 'Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allaah opened my heart to it and I began to realize the good in the idea which 'Umar had realized." Then Abu Bakr said (to me). “You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). So search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Qur’aan and compile it in one book." By Allah If they had ordered me to move one of the mountains, it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to compile the Qur’aan. Then I said (to Abu Bakr), "How can you do something that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not do?" Abu Bakr replied, "By Allaah, it is a good thing." Abu Bakr kept on urging me to accept his idea until Allaah opened my heart to that to which He had opened the hearts of Abu Bakr and 'Umar. So I started looking for the Qur’aan and collecting it from (what it was written on) palm stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, until I found the last Verse of Soorat al-Tawbah with Abu Khuzaymah al-Ansaari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. The verse is (interpretation of the meaning):

"Verily, there has come unto you a Messenger (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty...” [al-Tawbah 9:128] until the end of Soorat Baraa’ah (i.e., al-Tawbah).

Then the complete manuscript (copy) of the Qur’aan remained with Abu Bakr until he died, then with 'Umar until the end of his life, and then with Hafsah, the daughter of 'Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him).

The Sahaabi Zayd ibn Thaabit (may Allaah be pleased with him) knew the Qur’aan by heart but he was methodical in his confirmation; he would not agree to write down any verse until two of the Sahaabah testified that they had heard it from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

This Mus-haf (written copy of the Qur’aan) remained in the hands of the caliphs until the time of the Rightly-Guided Caliph ‘Uthmaan ibn ‘Affaan (may Allaah be pleased with him). The Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them) had dispersed to different lands, and they used to recite the Qur’aan according to what they had heard of the seven recitations from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and each of their students used to recite according to what he had heard from his shaykh. If a student heard someone reciting in a manner different from what he knew, he would denounce him and accuse him of making a mistake, and this went on until the Sahaabah feared that there would be fitnah (trouble) between the Taabi’een and successive generations. So they thought that they should unite the people in following one recitation, which was in the dialect of Quraysh in which the Qur’aan had first been revealed, so as to dispel any disputes and resolve the matter. ‘Uthmaan (may Allaah be pleased with him) was consulted, and he agreed with this opinion.

Al-Bukhaari narrated in his Saheeh (4988) from Anas ibn Maalik that Hudhayfah ibn al-Yamaan came to ‘Uthmaan at the time when the people of Shaam (Syria) and the people of Iraq were waging war to conquer Armenia and Azerbaijan. Hudhayfah was alarmed by their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur’aan, so he said to 'Uthmaan, "O Ameer al-Mu’mineen! Save this nation before they dispute about the Book (Qur’aan) as the Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthmaan sent a message to Hafsah saying, "Send us the manuscript of the Qur’aan so that we may make copies of the Mus-haf and we will return the manuscript to you."

Hafsah sent it to 'Uthmaan. Then 'Uthmaan ordered Zayd ibn Thaabit, 'Abdullah ibn al-Zubayr, Sa’eed ibn al-‘Aas and ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn Haarith ibn Hishaam to copy out the manuscripts. 'Uthmaan said to the three men who were from Quraysh (the tribe of which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was a member), “In case you disagree with Zayd ibn Thaabit on any point in the Qur’aan, then write it in the dialect of Quraysh, for the Qur’aan was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthmaan returned the original manuscripts to Hafsah.

'Uthmaan sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'aanic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt.

Rashduct4luv:


Muhammad is proven to be unlettered so he never wrote the Qur'an but he recites it. His companions wrote for him.

So you have agreed that Muhammad never wrote the Quran!

And Muhammad was dead after the final compilation of the Quran was done and Muhammad was not alive to verify what was compiled but those Muhammad said he trusted their memories disagreed with the Quran that was compiled which further confirm that what was compiled was not what Muhammad claimed to have received.

Proof that the Quran is not complete, Ubai's recitation was not included

Narrated Ibn `Abbas:
`Umar said, Ubai was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur'an) yet we leave some of what he recites.' Ubai says, 'I have taken it from the mouth of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and will not leave for anything whatever." But Allah said "None of Our Revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or similar." 2.106
Vol. 6, Book 61, Hadith 527

Apart from Ubai, they didn't compile the recitation of other people with good knowledge

Narrated Masruq:
`Abdullah bin Masud was mentioned before `Abdullah bin `Amr who said, "That is a man I still love, as I heard the Prophet (ﷺ) saying 'Learn the recitation of Qur'an from four from `Abdullah bin Mas`ud -- he started with him--Salim, the freed slave of Abu Hudaifa, Mu`adh bin Jabal and Ubai bin Ka`b."
Vol. 5, Book 58, Hadith 153

Masud's recitation was not included and to tell you that the Quran compiled was not the original, Masud protested.

...."Mas'ud disliked Zaid bin Thabit copying the Musahif, and he said: 'O you Muslims people! Avoid copying the Mushaf and the recitation of this man. By Allah! When I accepted Islam he was but in the loins of a disbelieving man' - meaning Zaid bin Thabit - and it was regarding this that 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud said: 'O people of Al-'Iraq! Keep the Musahif that are with you, and conceal them. For indeed Allah said: And whoever conceals something, he shall come with what he concealed on the Day of Judgement (3:161). So meet Allah with the Musahif.' Az-Zuhri said: It was conveyed to me that some men amongst the most virtuous of the Companions of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) disliked that view of Ibn Mas'ud.
JAMI AT TIRMIDHI HADITH NO. 3104


Also, when the Quran was written about 652 AD, there was no diacritical marks in Arabic language, it only came into existence in 8th century and the 9th century, long after Muhammad had died.

The arabic skeletal script is without the diacritical marks and vowelization:
Fathah = ah
Dhammah = oo
Kasrah = ii

None of the above dialect marks existed in the time of the prophet or Uthman in 652 AD and the present day Quran has them.

That means nobody in the world has the original Quran with the original language without diacritical marks and vowelizations and that means the Quran compiled is not the same as the one Muhammad received

Narrated Abu-Huraira:
Gabriel used to repeat the recitation of the Qur'an with the Prophet (ﷺ) once a year, but he repeated it twice with him in the year he died. The Prophet (ﷺ) used to stay in I`tikaf for ten days every year (in the month of Ramadan), but in the year of his death, he stayed in I`tikaf for twenty days.
Bukahr 4998, Book 66, Hadith 20

I asked you to show me where Waraqa told Muhammad that the jinn that tormented him was jibreel or Gabriel, not what Abu Huraira said, Abu was only re echoing what Muhammad claimed.

You should prove that the injil Waraqa read was the same as the biography of Jesus you have today. The onus is on you not on me!
I have given you a verse that the Injil was revealed and not written by Matthew and co. And no Christian scholar will ever claim the Bible was revealed from God. Paul wrote letters in it too. Was Paul letters too among what Waraqah had?

Now I see that you're ignorant, not all the books of the New Testament of the Bible is the Gospel as preached by Jesus but only the first 4 books.

Paul lived more than 500 years before Muhammad was born. Paul never wrote any Gospel as peached by Jesus Christ directly.

Now where is the Injeel Waraqa copied from, if it could be preserved till the time of waraqa and Muhammad, at what point did it get lost? If your Allah said Christians should judge themselves from the Gospel and you're now claiming that the gospel is lost, are you saying Allah is not capable of preserving his words and revelation?


"And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient."
(QS. Al-Maaida 5: Verse 47)

No Jinn tormented Muhammad in the cave of Hira.

Why then did he want to commit suicide after the encounter with the jinn?

No Prophet of the true God as ever attempted suicide because they saw an angel

Rashduct4luv:



The Qur’aan continued to be preserved in the hearts of the Sahaabah who had memorized it, and on the skins and other materials until the time of the caliph Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq (may Allaah be pleased with him). During the Riddah wars many of the Sahaabah who had memorized the Qur’aan were killed, and Abu Bakr (may Allaah be pleased with him) was afraid that the Qur’aan would be lost. So he consulted the senior Sahaabah about compiling the Qur’aan in a single book so that it would remain preserved and would not be lost. He entrusted this mission to the chief of memorizers Zayd ibn Thaabit (may Allaah be pleased with him). Al-Bukhaari narrated in his Saheeh (4986) that Zayd ibn Thaabit (may Allaah be pleased with him) said:

Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq sent for me when the people of al-Yamaamah had been killed [i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against the false prophet Musaylimah]. (I went to him) and found ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), “ ‘Umar has come to me and said: ‘Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the Qur'aan (i.e. those who knew the Qur’aan by heart) on the day of the battle of al-Yamaamah, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur’aan may be lost. Therefore I suggest that you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur’aan be collected.” I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not do?" 'Umar said, "By Allah, this is something good." 'Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allaah opened my heart to it and I began to realize the good in the idea which 'Umar had realized." Then Abu Bakr said (to me). “You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). So search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Qur’aan and compile it in one book." By Allah If they had ordered me to move one of the mountains, it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to compile the Qur’aan. Then I said (to Abu Bakr), "How can you do something that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not do?" Abu Bakr replied, "By Allaah, it is a good thing." Abu Bakr kept on urging me to accept his idea until Allaah opened my heart to that to which He had opened the hearts of Abu Bakr and 'Umar. So I started looking for the Qur’aan and collecting it from (what it was written on) palm stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, until I found the last Verse of Soorat al-Tawbah with Abu Khuzaymah al-Ansaari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. The verse is (interpretation of the meaning):

"Verily, there has come unto you a Messenger (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty...” [al-Tawbah 9:128] until the end of Soorat Baraa’ah (i.e., al-Tawbah).

Then the complete manuscript (copy) of the Qur’aan remained with Abu Bakr until he died, then with 'Umar until the end of his life, and then with Hafsah, the daughter of 'Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him).

The Sahaabi Zayd ibn Thaabit (may Allaah be pleased with him) knew the Qur’aan by heart but he was methodical in his confirmation; he would not agree to write down any verse until two of the Sahaabah testified that they had heard it from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

This Mus-haf (written copy of the Qur’aan) remained in the hands of the caliphs until the time of the Rightly-Guided Caliph ‘Uthmaan ibn ‘Affaan (may Allaah be pleased with him). The Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them) had dispersed to different lands, and they used to recite the Qur’aan according to what they had heard of the seven recitations from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and each of their students used to recite according to what he had heard from his shaykh. If a student heard someone reciting in a manner different from what he knew, he would denounce him and accuse him of making a mistake, and this went on until the Sahaabah feared that there would be fitnah (trouble) between the Taabi’een and successive generations. So they thought that they should unite the people in following one recitation, which was in the dialect of Quraysh in which the Qur’aan had first been revealed, so as to dispel any disputes and resolve the matter. ‘Uthmaan (may Allaah be pleased with him) was consulted, and he agreed with this opinion.

Al-Bukhaari narrated in his Saheeh (4988) from Anas ibn Maalik that Hudhayfah ibn al-Yamaan came to ‘Uthmaan at the time when the people of Shaam (Syria) and the people of Iraq were waging war to conquer Armenia and Azerbaijan. Hudhayfah was alarmed by their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur’aan, so he said to 'Uthmaan, "O Ameer al-Mu’mineen! Save this nation before they dispute about the Book (Qur’aan) as the Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthmaan sent a message to Hafsah saying, "Send us the manuscript of the Qur’aan so that we may make copies of the Mus-haf and we will return the manuscript to you."

Hafsah sent it to 'Uthmaan. Then 'Uthmaan ordered Zayd ibn Thaabit, 'Abdullah ibn al-Zubayr, Sa’eed ibn al-‘Aas and ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn Haarith ibn Hishaam to copy out the manuscripts. 'Uthmaan said to the three men who were from Quraysh (the tribe of which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was a member), “In case you disagree with Zayd ibn Thaabit on any point in the Qur’aan, then write it in the dialect of Quraysh, for the Qur’aan was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthmaan returned the original manuscripts to Hafsah.

'Uthmaan sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'aanic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt.

I've bolden my points from your own write up.

advocatejare:

The first child that sinned in your school is not your parent so the two scenarios are not similar

If you can still lay claim to your ancestral land or other valuable inheritance, if a prince can still lay claim to a throne only because his great grandfathers were once kings, if you can lay for things just because your ancestors once owned such things, then you should understand the concept of original sin. You can't embrace the good things your ancestors left behind and at the same time say the bad things they left behind can't be yours.

Again your comparison is flawed. Inheriting property make sense, but do you inherit parent crime? Let's say a parent is to serve 10yrs jail term but died before the completion. Would it be proper to put the child in his stead? If human could be this just, I expect more from God

Sin or crime is a result of the person's preference at a point in time. It is only logical that he should be the only person to suffer the consequences.

Property is a different story entirely.

I understand it's natural to defend your faith, but sometimes try to look beyond the sphere of your religion and think independently without bias.

As it is today, only two group of religion claim to be serving the Supreme God of the universe, Christianity(christianity found its root in Judaism) and Islam.

The practice and the teaching of the two religions and the two religious leaders are direct opposite. Islam is the direct opposite of the teaching of Christ and Christianity, one of these religion is the truth, and the other one is the counterfeit.

Both Christianity and Islam claim their roots from Judaism and the God of Judaism talked about holiness, talked against adultery, covetousness, idolatry, and all forms of sins. Which is also what Christianity preaches but Islam doesn't.

It's saner to choose Christianity when left with the two options, if they actually claim to originate from Judaism and claim to worship the same God in Judaism.

Well both religion lack merit. They go against common sense.

If God's priority is what you believe rather than your action, then I can't accept such theory. It will remain man made theory to me.

Let's say two people meet God and one have committed 50 offences but believe in the doctrine of Christianity. The second person commit 20 offences but believe in Islamic or Buddhism doctrine.

According to Christianity, the second man will dwell in hell forever but the first man will be saved because of his belief. Same applies to Islamic belief.

If this is how the God of the Bible and Qur'an judge, then I am not afraid to burn in their hell.

While I admire the fact that religion preach moral value sometimes, I think the concept of hell is a method invented by those that brought religion in order to put fear in the mind of the people.

advocatejare:
I've bolden my points from your own write up.

Your points is just half-truths and falsehood.

Xmuslim:


Again your comparison is flawed. Inheriting property make sense, but do you inherit parent crime? Let's say a parent is to serve 10yrs jail term but died before the completion. Would it be proper to put the child in his stead? If human could be this just, I expect more from God

Sin or crime is a result of the person's preference at a point in time. It is only logical that he should be the only person to suffer the consequences.

Property is a different story entirely.

I understand it's natural to defend your faith, but sometimes try to look beyond the sphere of your religion and think independently without bias.




Well both religion lack merit. They go against common sense.

If God's priority is what you believe rather than your action, then I can't accept such theory. It will remain man made theory to me.

Let's say two people meet God and one have committed 50 offences but believe in the doctrine of Christianity. The second person commit 20 offences but believe in Islamic or Buddhism doctrine.

According to Christianity, the second man will dwell in hell forever but the first man will be saved because of his belief. Same applies to Islamic belief.

If this is how the God of the Bible and Qur'an judge, then I am not afraid to burn in their hell.

While I admire the fact that religion preach moral value sometimes, I think the concept of hell is a method invented by those that brought religion in order to put fear in the mind of the people.

All the best my brother. We're two parallel lines that can't meet for now.
I wish you happiness and fulfilment. Cheers

Rashduct4luv:


Your points is just half-truths and falsehood.

That means you have agreed that you posted half-truths and falsehood because I didn't add anything to what you posted, I only bolden some points in what you wrote.

advocatejare:

All the best my brother. We're two parallel lines that can't meet for now.
I wish you happiness and fulfilment. Cheers

I agree with you. Like I said earlier, we can always agree to our disagreement and live together in peace. I wish you all the best. Let's always be good to our fellow human regardless of their beliefs. Tolerance is a virtue. Some Muslims are lacking in this tolerance aspect, especially those that belief too much in the hadiths. I hope they become more tolerant too.

advocatejare:
That means you have agreed that you posted half-truths and falsehood because I didn't add anything to what you posted, I only bolden some points in what you wrote.

I posted the whole episode.

You lied that the Qur'an was compiled 20 years after the Prophet's death. It was only about 2 years!

Rashduct4luv:


I posted the whole episode.

You lied that the Qur'an was compiled 20 years after the Prophet's death. It was only about 2 years!

First and foremost, whether it was compiled after 2 or 20 years, it doesn't matter.

The point is that it was compiled after the death of Muhammad and Muhammad was not alive to verify what they compiled.

But the fact is that, the standardized, unified Quran was compiled 20years after Muhammad had died.


Muhammad died in 632 AD

Abu Bakr the first Caliph ruled for 2 years during which he started the first compilation and he completed it before he died and kept it.

The second caliph Umar ruled for 10 years from 634-644AD and he was in custody of manuscripts until he died after which Hafsa his daughter kept custody of it.

During the rule of Uthman (who ruled 12years after Muhammad had died) that is more than 12 years after the first Quran was compiled. Uthman ruled for 12years so in between those 12 years while he was ruling, people called his attention to the different ways people were reciting the Quran (which has been the norm even when Muhammad was alive and he didn't think of unifying the Quran into one dialect because Muhammad himself said the Quran was revealed to him in 7 different dialects)


But Uthman decided to unify the Quran into one standardized version when neither Allah nor Muhammad gave him such Instruction when he was alive.

So Uthman sent for the manuscript with Hafsa
"...So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies."... Sahih Bukhari 6:61:510


So Uthman then ordered his scribes to write the new Quran in the dialect of the Quraysh and when they were done with their editing and standardization they buried the evidence of their alterations by burning the evidence.


"...'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt..." Sahih Bukhari 6:61:510

Hence the Quran sent to all provinces were compiled during the reign of Uthman who started ruling 12 years after Muhammad died and ruled for another 12 Years and the compilation and editing was done within his 12 Years of rule, which was 652 A.D.20years after Muhammad had died

Also, as at that 652 A.D. there was no diacritical marks in Arabic language, it only came into existence in 8th century and the 9th century, long after Muhammad had died and long after Uthman had given out his own standardized version of the Quran

The arabic skeletal script is without the diacritical marks and vowelization:
Fathah = ah
Dhammah = oo
Kasrah = ii

None of the above dialect marks existed in the time of the prophet or Uthman in 652 AD and the present day Quran has them

That means nobody in the world has the original Quran with the original language without diacritical marks and vowelizations and that means the Quran compiled is not the same as the one Muhammad received

WHERE IS THE QURAN GIVEN TO MUHAMMAD?

advocatejare:



First and foremost, whether it was compiled after 2 or 20 years, it doesn't matter.

The point is that it was compiled after the death of Muhammad and Muhammad was not alive to verify what they compiled.

But the fact is that, the standardized, unified Quran was compiled 20years after Muhammad had died.


Muhammad died in 632 AD

Abu Bakr the first Caliph ruled for 2 years during which he started the first compilation and he completed it before he died and kept it.

The second caliph Umar ruled for 10 years from 634-644AD and he was in custody of manuscripts until he died after which Hafsa his daughter kept custody of it.

During the rule of Uthman (who ruled 12years after Muhammad had died) that is more than 12 years after the first Quran was compiled. Uthman ruled for 12years so in between those 12 years while he was ruling, people called his attention to the different ways people were reciting the Quran (which has been the norm even when Muhammad was alive and he didn't think of unifying the Quran into one dialect because Muhammad himself said the Quran was revealed to him in 7 different dialects)


But Uthman decided to unify the Quran into one standardized version when neither Allah nor Muhammad gave him such Instruction when he was alive.

So Uthman sent for the manuscript with Hafsa
"...So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies."... Sahih Bukhari 6:61:510


So Uthman then ordered his scribes to write the new Quran in the dialect of the Quraysh and when they were done with their editing and standardization they buried the evidence of their alterations by burning the evidence.


"...'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt..." Sahih Bukhari 6:61:510

Hence the Quran sent to all provinces were compiled during the reign of Uthman who started ruling 12 years after Muhammad died and ruled for another 12 Years and the compilation and editing was done within his 2 Years of rule, which was 652 A.D.20years after Muhammad had died

Also, as at that 652 A.D. there was no diacritical marks in Arabic language, it only came into existence in 8th century and the 9th century, long after Muhammad had died and long after Uthman had given out his own standardized version of the Quran

The arabic skeletal script is without the diacritical marks and vowelization:
Fathah = ah
Dhammah = oo
Kasrah = ii

None of the above dialect marks existed in the time of the prophet or Uthman in 652 AD and the present day Quran has them

That means nobody in the world has the original Quran with the original language without diacritical marks and vowelizations and that means the Quran compiled is not the same as the one Muhammad received

WHERE IS THE QURAN GIVEN TO MUHAMMAD?

I think it matters to me that you are liar! No need to change anything. It is established that you are far from the truth and you don't even want the truth. So Keep up the lies!

Rashduct4luv:


I think it matters to me that you are liar! No need to change anything. It is established that you are far from the truth and you don't even want the truth. So Keep up the lies!

Go and argue with Sahih Bukhari 6:61:510

WHERE IS THE QURAN GIVEN TO MUHAMMAD?

advocatejare:

Go and argue with Sahih Bukhari 6:61:510

WHERE IS THE QURAN GIVEN TO MUHAMMAD?

OBVIOUSLY THEY CANT PROVIDE THIS ANSWER.

osuofia2:

OBVIOUSLY THEY CANT PROVIDE THIS ANSWER.

Uthman and Zaid have burnt it, according to Sahih Bukhari 6:61:510

This guy was led to Christ and na argument follow? Congratulations to you jare bros, you are happy with your religion, let's us live happily with ours. Ko fa ija na