Welcome, Guest: Join Nairaland / LOGIN! / Trending / Recent / New
Stats: 2,744,875 members, 6,512,292 topics. Date: Tuesday, 28 September 2021 at 08:20 PM

Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife - Culture (14) - Nairaland

Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Culture / Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife (24768 Views)

Abiriba Kingdom In Abia Holds 600-Year-Old ‘Itu Eye’ Ceremony In Grand Style / Nigerian Man Visits British Museum, Spots Stolen Benin Kingdom Artifacts. Photos / Ezelekhae Ewuare: The Crown Prince Of Benin Kingdom Unveiled In Edo (Photos) (2) (3) (4)

(1) (2) (3) ... (11) (12) (13) (14) (15) (16) (17) ... (52) (Reply) (Go Down)

Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 6:27am On Apr 10, 2020
TAO11:



Yes[/], he provided a suggestion for why the [b]Benin Obas' skulls were not found.


But, he never introduced a shred of doubt as to whether the site was not for burial, or whether it was not for Benin's Obas, despite the early date of some of the materials he found

This is going in circles.
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 6:29am On Apr 10, 2020
MetaPhysical:


Does that negate or make the descent statement inadmissible?


It's not inadmissible. I never said it was, it's just not clear what the source is for that information, whereas the other information is attributed to an Alaafin.
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 6:36am On Apr 10, 2020
MetaPhysical:
I believe if bias and partiality were put under review no kingdom in Nigeria enjoyed partiality and bias of the early explorers and colonial prejudice than Benin.

Writers who could not point to it on map or had a clue what color of people lived there or whether it was a valley or a mountain painted all sorts of Alice in Wonderland tales and packaged these as authorities on Benin.

Oyo did not receive an European visit till 1842.

Ife was never visited by an explorer till 1942.

grin

In all practicality Benin turned out to be a village compared with Ife and Oyo.

Substance vs form!

1842? No, slightly earlier though I get your point. But anyway, the situation is, if anything, the contrary. Lots of European written sources on Oyo are very much second or third hand and a few are even clearly just rumor and hearsay. Some of these sources, despite being not being based on direct European visits to Oyo are often plausible, informative or useful to historians despite that.

There were lots of biased accounts against Benin in the decades leading up to, and immediately following the 1897 conquest by the British so I don't know what you mean by "enjoying partiality". Multiple colonial sources are explicit in their condemnation of and criticisms of Benin, so I don't see that angle at all.
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by MetaPhysical: 6:38am On Apr 10, 2020
SilverSniper:


It's not inadmissible. I never said it was, it's just not clear what the source is for that information, whereas the other information is attributed to an Alaafin.

Credibility test is given to witnesses in court cases.

You are applying credibility test to his testimony on descent.

What that does is it calls into question his claim about what he claims Alaafin said to him.

You are conflicting your points.

Now we have an hearsay
"Alaafin said..."


Is there a corroboration from an independent source, perharps Alaafin himself?

1 Like

Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by TAO11(f): 6:40am On Apr 10, 2020
SilverSniper:


The reference to "legend or myth" was strictly in reference to the whole story of Oranmiyan leaving Eweka in Benin then becoming the first Alafin (rather than Ajaka, and not returning to Ife) that you referenced in your first post that I initially quoted, and the inferences you were drawing from that about how ranking might have worked. You misinterpreted what I said there but I could have been clearer.

As for Crowther or Johnson, I simply said there was a possible issue of bias resulting in incorporation of partial accounts or political angles, that's all. I wasn't saying they were mere myth-makers.

Oh, is this the same samuk with a different account? Lol

Anyways, I'm not clear how you suddenly flipped from your using of the "myth and legend" card as a supposed counter to Crowther's and Johnson's accounts; and now to using it in relation to some comment in the afternoon/yesterday isn't clear ar all.

What is clear, however, is that you you wouldn't accept Johnson and Crowther independent accounts because you imagined that they must have been based on legend and myth.

But I have demonstrated how this weak contention was in fact rendered void considering the historical fact that Oya reigned supreme over Benin during some course of history.

Now, this is also clear.

Your digression to "rather than Ajaka" is counterintuitive. The reason for leaving Eweka according to the account is that only a son with some Edo heritage will be the best fit.
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by MetaPhysical: 6:40am On Apr 10, 2020
SilverSniper:


1842? No, slightly earlier though I get your point. But anyway, the situation is, if anything, the contrary. Lots of European written sources on Oyo are very much second or third hand and a few are even clearly just rumor and hearsay. Some of these sources, despite being not being based on direct European visits to Oyo are often plausible, informative or useful to historians despite that.

There were lots of biased accounts against Benin in the decades leading up to, and immediately following the 1897 conquest by the British so I don't know what you mean by "enjoying partiality". Multiple colonial sources are explicit in their condemnation of and criticisms of Benin, so I don't see that angle at all.

1824.
1842 is wrong!

The question of censureship is broad.

Relatively....Benin had a headstart with explorers. Much of what Benin is today are perceptions and falsehoods that survived those contacts.

The "Great" in Great Benin is a borrowing from foreing explorers. Benin itself has never demonstrated indigeneously sourced greatness.

Cannon fire gave Benin advantage over neighbouring groups.

If left to fight on horseback with swords and spears it could not by any imagination have been Great.

Oyo raised a cavalry after its conflict with Nupe. Ibadan remained indefeatable inspite of being at war with multiple opponents simulateneously, most of them more powerfully armed and with stealth.

Ijebu had guns, fulani came on horseback.

What Ibadan did is what greatness should be.


Great

3 Likes 1 Share

Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 6:43am On Apr 10, 2020
MetaPhysical:


Credibility test is given to witnesses in court cases.

You are applying credibility test to his testimony on descent.

What that does is it calls into question his claim about what he claims Alaafin said to him.

You are conflicting your points.

Now we have an hearsay
"Alaafin said..."


Is there a corroboration from an independent source, perharps Alaafin himself?



Actually, I just said that it wasn't relevant to the initial point I made and in the later post I said that he doesn't say where he got that account from. That's all. I didn't he say he was not credible about being told that account about descent. I'm sure somebody told him; it's just not clear who.
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 6:44am On Apr 10, 2020
MetaPhysical:


1824.
1842 is wrong!

Oh okay, just a typo.
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by TAO11(f): 6:45am On Apr 10, 2020
SilverSniper:

This is going in circles.

Nothing is going in circle.

Your contention was about some early date of some items.

You sought to use that (i.e. the date) to dissociate the site from Benin kings.

And I have shown how that is a fallacy.

I also showed how Willett himself never attempted dissociating Benin kings from the site, despite knowing all dating results.
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 6:53am On Apr 10, 2020
TAO11:

is that you you wouldn't accept Johnson and Crowther independent accounts because you imagined that they must have been based on legend and myth.

My statement was about possible political bias in their accounts. Once again, I don't think they were just repeating myth and legend in their accounts.

But I have demonstrated how this weak contention was in fact rendered void considering the historical fact that Oya reigned supreme over Benin during some course of history.

It just eclipsed Benin in power at one point, but "reigned supreme over" is quite unlikely.

Our digression to "rather than Ajaka" is counterintuitive. The reason for leaving Eweka according to the account is that only a son with some Edo heritage will be the best fit --- or something along that line.

The point was about the account that makes Oranmiyan the first Alafin (rather than Ajaka). I had read accounts in the past which portrayed Oranmiyan leaving Oyo and Ajaka becoming the first Alaafin, but I guess those accounts are less accepted.
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 6:54am On Apr 10, 2020
TAO11:


Nothing is going in circle.

Your contention was about some early date of some items.

You sought to use that (i.e. the date) to dissociate the site from Benin kings.

And I have shown how that is a fallacy.

I also showed how Willett himself never attempted dissociating Benin kings from the site, despite knowing all dating results.

I'm just going to move on, because this isn't going anywhere.
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 7:07am On Apr 10, 2020
MetaPhysical:


1824.
1842 is wrong!

The question of censureship is broad.

Relatively....Benin had a headstart with explorers. Much of what Benin is today are perceptions and falsehoods that survived those contacts.

The "Great" in Great Benin is a borrowing from foreing explorers. Benin itself has never demonstrated indigeneously sourced greatness.

Cannon fire gave Benin advantage over neighbouring groups.

If left to fight on horseback with swords and spears it could not by any imagination have been Great.

Oyo raised a cavalry after its conflict with Nupe. Ibadan remained indefeatable inspite of being at war with multiple opponents simulateneously, most of them more powerfully armed and with stealth.

Ijebu had guns, fulani came on horseback.

What Ibadan did is what greatness should be.


Great

1. This is wrong and pretty much the exact opposite of the truth. Actually Benin was portrayed as a powerful state with a huge capital even in the early accounts. Benin really became powerful under Oba Ewuare, decades before any contact with Europeans.

A letter from the king of Portugal to the king of Benin in 1492 is addressed to the "powerful and noble king of Benin".

2. The Portuguese refused to sell firearms or cannon to Benin (in the late 15th century and 16th century) in any significant quantity because Benin was pagan and not Christian; it wasn't until the mid to late 17th century that firearms would have been very relevant, and Benin had a powerful state long before that. Actually even a mid-17th century European account noted that the Bini were not fond of firearms at all, and their soldiers didn't make that much use of them. By the 18th century however, Benin was even manufacturing some of its own guns.

3. Horses don't survive as long in the area Benin is in, and are just not as useful in that sort of environment, so the argument that Benin was a mainly infantry army rather than using cavalry like some states further north so this means it was weak is silly. In fact, Olfert Dapper records a victory by Benin over a kingdom "Isago" (probably a Nupe state, according to some historians) that had thousands of cavalry.

4. Benin exported guns to Yorubaland at one point, and exported mercenaries to parts of Yorubaland. This is a book by a Yoruba historian about the 19th century Yoruba wars. If I can recall it again, I'll post the source.
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by MetaPhysical: 7:08am On Apr 10, 2020
SilverSniper:


Actually, I just said that it wasn't relevant to the initial point I made and in the later post I said that he doesn't say where he got that account from. That's all. I didn't he say he was not credible about being told that account about descent. I'm sure somebody told him; it's just not clear who.

The point of descendancy, as far this thread and all the contributions pertain, is the most relevant of anything else. Far moreso than what is claimed to have been said by Alaafin.

The bottom line is AUTHORITY.

Who commanded authority, Ife or Benin....

That two line entry said a REFORMER.

Something was wrong in Benin. Someone needed to go there and set them straight. Reformer was sent.

The reformer did not go on his own authority ....he acted on a superior authority, to dispatch and reform Benin.

He left a child there.

He left with the child the authority (Yoruba call this Ashe) for reformation.

The Kings of Benin ever since have invoked and activated this Ashe to keep Benin reformed.

The Ashe with Oba Benin came from the authority in Ife who dispatched his ancestor, Oranmiyan, with the task to reform Benin.

This is the core of the whole argument. How can it not be relevant?

2 Likes

Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by MetaPhysical: 7:13am On Apr 10, 2020
SilverSniper:


1. This is wrong and pretty much the exact opposite of the truth. Actually Benin was portrayed as a powerful state with a huge capital even in the early accounts. Benin really became powerful under Oba Ewuare, decades before any contact with Europeans.

A letter from the king of Portugal to the king of Benin in 1492 is even addressed to the "noble and powerful king of Benin".

2. The Portuguese refused to sell firearms to Benin (in the late 15th century and 16th century)in any significant quantity, it wasn't until the mid to late 17th century that firearms would have been very relevant, and Benin had a powerful state long before that. Actually even a mid-17th century European account noted that the Bini were not fond of firearms at all, and their soldiers didn't make that much use of them. By the 18th century however, Benin was even manufacturing some of its own guns.

3. Horses don't survive as long in the area Benin is in, and are just not as useful in that sort of environment, so the argument that Benin was a mainly infantry army rather than using cavalry means it was weak is silly. In fact, Olfert Dapper records a victory by Benin over a kingdom "Isago" (probably a Nupe state, according to some historians) that had thousands of cavalry.

4. Benin exported guns to Yorubaland at one point, and exported mercenaries to parts of Yorubaland. This is a book by a Yoruba historian about the 19th century Yoruba wars. If I can recall it again, I'll post the source.

Ijebu was the source of guns in Yorubaland.

Read Ijebu history and their knowledge of commerce. Their impact and influence in shaping the hinterland wars.

Anyone King of Portugal writes would be addressed as noble. That was just court manners.

King of Portugal wrote Oshodi Tapa, a freed slave, and addressed him like he would address Eshilokun, the King.

Thats not out of place to address friends as noble, or your mightiness...

3 Likes

Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by MetaPhysical: 7:19am On Apr 10, 2020
SilverSniper:


1. This is wrong and pretty much the exact opposite of the truth. Actually Benin was portrayed as a powerful state with a huge capital even in the early accounts. Benin really became powerful under Oba Ewuare, decades before any contact with Europeans.

A letter from the king of Portugal to the king of Benin in 1492 is addressed to the "powerful and noble king of Benin".

2. The Portuguese refused to sell firearms or cannon to Benin (in the late 15th century and 16th century) in any significant quantity because Benin was pagan and not Christian; it wasn't until the mid to late 17th century that firearms would have been very relevant, and Benin had a powerful state long before that. Actually even a mid-17th century European account noted that the Bini were not fond of firearms at all, and their soldiers didn't make that much use of them. By the 18th century however, Benin was even manufacturing some of its own guns.

3. Horses don't survive as long in the area Benin is in, and are just not as useful in that sort of environment, so the argument that Benin was a mainly infantry army rather than using cavalry like some states further north so this means it was weak is silly. In fact, Olfert Dapper records a victory by Benin over a kingdom "Isago" (probably a Nupe state, according to some historians) that had thousands of cavalry.

4. Benin exported guns to Yorubaland at one point, and exported mercenaries to parts of Yorubaland. This is a book by a Yoruba historian about the 19th century Yoruba wars. If I can recall it again, I'll post the source.

Please stop mentioning Olfert. Please.

If it was possible everything he ever wrote should be dumped in the ocean.

2 Likes

Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 7:27am On Apr 10, 2020
MetaPhysical:


Ijebu was the source of guns in Yorubaland.

Read Ijebu history and their knowledge of commerce. Their impact and influence in shaping the hinterland wars.


I haven't denied that the Ijebu had a big role in commerce in Yorubaland or denied that they probably played a big role in supplying other parts of Yorubaland with some guns and ammunition.


Since I can't find the book with the statement about mercenaries (I don't remember the title or author since it was so many years ago), I'll at least post these statements:

"Next the Ogbagis obtained help from Rabbah and Ilorin. Sinabu King Masaba's son and Hinakonu the Fulani Balogun of Ilorin came against him ; thrice was Ayorinde routed, and many of his fighting men speared, but he rallied again and maintained his ground. Ogbagi was at length taken. Ayorinde became lord of the Akokos and Ido Ani. He opened a caravan way to Owo through which he obtained ammunition from Benin." - Samuel Johnson, The History of the Yorubas

"The confederates now aimed at wresting from the Ibadans all their subject towns including Oyo towns under their protection from Ikirun to Iwo, and limit the Ibadan territories to the river Oba, that is the natural limits of their farms in that direction. It soon became evident that the Ifes had joined them, because their only safe route to Benin for ammunition via Oke Igbo became unsafe from kidnappers ; but the people of Modakeke being Oyos and not Ifes refused to join the coalition knowing that the destruction of Ibadan would be their own ruin, as the Ifes were ever hostile to them, but remained quiet for fear of the Ibadans." - Samuel Johnson, The History of the Yorubas

"The allies had also the great advantage over the Ibadans, in that they had free access to Benin for ammunition whilst nearly all the roads were closed to the Ibadans. Long flintlock guns with large muzzles were imported from Benin ; these, when fully loaded and fired, gave a report which reverberating from hill to hill all around sounded like Ki-ri-ji-i, from which this war was named the Kiriji Campaign." - Samuel Johnson, The History of the Yorubas


I meant 1514 above, about the letter from the king of Portugal, not 1492, I was going off memory and mixed up the dates.
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by TAO11(f): 7:28am On Apr 10, 2020
SilverSniper:

My statement was about possible political bias in their accounts. Once again, I don't think they were just repeating myth and legend in their accounts.
And my point is that your unestablished personal doubt of political bias was severely undermined by a historical fact --- which is that Oyo gained military and political ascendancy over other kingdoms --- including Benin kingdom.

This historical fact is therefore a corroboration of the independent accounts of Johnson and Crowther that Benin paid tribute to Oyo at some point --- they clearly weren't merely independently biased as history came to vindicate them (at least in this instance)

It just eclipsed Benin in power at one point, but "reigned supreme over" is quite unlikely.

Lol. Euphemism and semantics. I hear! Whichever you choose eventually made no difference to the point I made. grin wink cheesy


The point was about the account that makes Oranmiyan the first Alafin (rather than Ajaka). I had read accounts in the past which portrayed Oranmiyan leaving Oyo and Ajaka becoming the first Alaafin, but I guess those accounts are less accepted.

How does leaving Oyo for Ife at some point get to be interpreted by you as meaning one and the same thing as never becoming king at Oyo?? undecided undecided
Oranmiyan founded Oyo as its first king.

How then does Ajaka become Oyo's first king when Oranmiyan left (after his reign in Oyo) to become king in Ife?? Please don't start! grin grin

It is clearly you who are to blame and not the account you read, because based on what you wrote here, Oranmiyan later left Oyo and installed Ajaka.

Leaving Oyo for Ajaka does not by any stretch of the imagination mean the same thing as never ruling at Oyo.

In fact, it clerly means that Ajaka will take over whatever Oranmiyan was doing before. So that if Ajaka turns out ro be ruling, then that was precisely what Oranmiyan was doing while he was around.

Yoruba tradition is in fact most clear about Oranmiyan being the first king at Oyo. grin grin

In contrast to Benin: He was invited. He wasn't the founder. He didn't begin to rule as king, because those who had invited him themselves were still divided over the matter.

Benin account also say the same until in the year 2016.

In other words, regardless of how you look at the ranking, Alaafin is superior to the Oba of Benin. And the Ooni is superior to both.
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by TAO11(f): 7:31am On Apr 10, 2020
SilverSniper:


I'm just going to move on, because this isn't going anywhere.

Yes, it's NOT going your revisionist way. grin grin

And I'd rather stick to what extant historical information is available on the subject --- information which has come years later to be corroborated by archaeological finds.

Cheers!
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 7:34am On Apr 10, 2020
MetaPhysical:


Please stop mentioning Olfert. Please.

If it was possible everything he ever wrote should be dumped in the ocean.

Historians don't need to cite Dapper to make the case that Benin was considered one of the most powerful states in the region, since multiple other accounts give a similar idea of the king of Benin's power. This kind of power existed before Europeans arrived and Benin's rise wasn't based on guns from Europeans - Benin didn't even have many guns until much later.

The quote is actually "the powerful and noble king of Benin", my initial post didn't have the order of the adjectives right.
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by MetaPhysical: 7:44am On Apr 10, 2020
SilverSniper:


Historians don't need to cite Dapper to make the case that Benin was considered one of the most powerful states in the region, since multiple other accounts give a similar idea of the king of Benin's power. This kind of power existed before Europeans arrived and Benin's rise wasn't based on guns from Europeans - Benin didn't even have many guns until much later.

The quote is actually "the powerful and noble king of Benin", my initial post didn't have the order of the adjectives right.

Are you aware that Dapper was held as the authority on Benin history for a very long time?

Any writer on Benin who did not reference Dapper was not considered credible.

Does Dapper, the authority on Benin know where Benin is?

If Benin, the land of chaos and disorder, so bad that it needed a reformer....could soon after become REFORMED, prosperous. That credit is due to the intervention years ...centuries....earlier by Ife.

Would you disagree?

2 Likes 1 Share

Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 7:46am On Apr 10, 2020
TAO11:

And my point is that your unestablished personal doubt of political bias was severely undermined by a historical fact --- which is that Oyo gained military and political ascendancy over other kingdoms --- including Benin kingdom.

This historical fact is therefore a corroboration of the independent accounts of Johnson and Crowther that Benin paid tribute to Oyo at some point --- they clearly weren't merely independently biased as history came to vindicate them (at least in this instance)



Lol. Euphemism and semantics. I hear!! grin



How does leaving Oyo for Ife at some point get to be interpreted by you as meaning one and the same thing as never becoming king at Oyo?? undecided undecided
Oranmiyan founded Oyo as its first king.

How then does Ajaka become Oyo's first king when Oranmiyan left (after his reign in Oyo) to become king in Ife?? Please don't start! grin grin

It is clearly you who are to blame and not the account you read, becahse based on what you wrote here, Oranmiyan later left Oyo and installed Ajaka.

How then is the account to blame when it was you who had interpreted that Ajaka (who wasn't installed until Oronmiyan was vacating the throne) was the fist king?? grin grin grin

In contrast to Benin: He was invited. He wasn't the founder. He didn't begin to rule as king, because those who had invited him themselves were still divided over the matter.

Benin account also say the same until in the year 2016.

In other words, regardless of how you look at the ranking, Alaafin is superior to thw Oba of Benin. And the Ooni js superior to both.

The account was pretty clear in its meaning, and I don't think I misread it, but there are doubtless going to be different versions from different sources. As for Crowther or Johnson, honestly, I don't think their statements were in fact validated historically (it's not impossible I just don't see the explicit evidence for it.)
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by TAO11(f): 8:00am On Apr 10, 2020
SilverSniper:


The account was pretty clear in its meaning, and I don't think I misread it, but there are doubtless going to be different versions from different sources. As for Crowther or Johnson, honestly, I don't think their statements were in fact validated historically (it's not impossible I just don't see the explicit evidence for it.)

If what it says is what you have repeated earlier on --- i.e. that "Oranmiyan later left" --- then I am schocked that you still insist on the equation below:

Oranmiyan later left Oyo = Oranmiyan never ruled at Oyo.

Wow shocked

Alaafin is superior to the Oba of Benin, any how you want to look at it because no Oyo account says Ajaka is the first Alaafin. I challenge you to submit such account here.


Wait! Do you really insist that the fact that Oyo at its height once gained military and political ascendancy over a Benin kingdom which has been grounded and turned apart by civil war is no corroboration for the independent accounts of Crowther and Johnson that Oyo forced tributes from Benin kingdom?? ?? ?? shocked

I understand!! grin
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by gregyboy(m): 8:02am On Apr 10, 2020
davidnazee:


Your fish brain only knows and celebrate myths and unfounded claims.. you have been using myths to challenge real and documented history.

Ife was just a village that had a great oracle from whom people from different places came to seek divination and when people got tired of the oracle Ife faded away. That was why all the early writers you referenced never saw Ife, only heard rumours of a certain place whose name they weren’t sure of and whose ruler was insignificant that they didn’t bother to go visit.

Yet all those historians visited Benin and recorded it as a great and mighty Kingdom which ruled over vast majority of Yorubaland. From the time the first Portuguese set foot on these parts till the British took over was a timeline of over 400yrs and Benin was recorded as the greatest Kingdom all that time and Ife was non existent.



It seems you have agreed oghene is ife
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 8:12am On Apr 10, 2020
TAO11:


If what it says is what you have repeated earlier on --- i.e. that "Oranmiyan later left" --- then I am schocked that you still insist on the equation below:

Oranmiyan later left Oyo = Oranmiyan never ruled at Oyo.

Wow shocked

The account stated that he sent his son to rule there as its first king, in contrast to the standard Oyo account given by Johnson and some others which makes Oranmiyan its first king, but this was many years ago, so I admit I might not be recalling the account exactly right. I also came across the accounts which claim some sort of Nupe or Borgu origin around the same time (Robert Smith summarizes the basic outline of those ideas on p. 30 of his book Kingdoms of the Yoruba) when I was reading all this stuff back then.
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by samuk: 8:19am On Apr 10, 2020
SilverSniper:


I think you misread the post. Asibong Okon was merely citing a British article, from the United Empire book, and he repeated what was stated in that sentence almost word for word. So he couldn't have lied about that. Maybe you think the British governor lied about what he was told, but that would be a different issue entirely (how reliable are colonial authorities, or Europeans generally, in their accounts of what they were told by African rulers).

My point about Johnson is that his pro-Oyo bias is significant enough that multiple historians have commented on it - significant enough that he promotes the idea in his book The History of the Yorubas that the Ooni of Ife was a descendant of a mere shrine keeper, rather than real royalty (a myth which had actually been prevalent in other parts of Yorubaland even before Johnson wrote his book; the historian Robin Law cites other instances of this myth about the Ooni of Ife being some kind of shrine keeper or non-royalty existing in other parts of Yorubaland dating from before and after Johnson's book was published). So Johnson was someone who could - and apparently did - incorporate myths or legends that had a sort of political angle to them into his historical account.

As for Crowther I was merely speculating or alluding to how he may not have been an impartial source since he may have simply been repeating a pro-Oyo account which was prevalent in his time.

Very interesting, I remember the Awujale of Ijebu saying that the Ooni was not of royal descent.

These different Yoruba tribes once killed themselves with help of guns and mercenaries supplied by Benin.

The guys are just here spinning Benin history to unite themselves.

I now understand their pain and anger against Benin.

You are a breath of fresh air.

Cc Gregyboy
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by TAO11(f): 8:22am On Apr 10, 2020
SilverSniper:


The account stated that he sent his son to rule there as its first king, in contrast to the standard Oyo account given by Johnson and some others which makes Oranmiyan its first king, but this was many years ago, so I admit I might not be recalling the account exactly right. I also came across the accounts which claim some sort of Nupe or Borgu origin around the same time (Robert Smith summarizes the basic outline of those ideas on p. 30 of his book Kingdoms of the Yoruba) when I was reading all this stuff back then.

Send his son, from where? grin grin grin

Which audio account is that Mr??

Stop the diatraction! What I asked from you simply is the Oyo account which claims Ajaka as first Alaafin. grin grin Cite it here.


Moreover, the variant Borgu or Nupe origin account you alluded to makes your case even worse because they assert an earlier beginning for the Alaafin's throne --- thus still coming back to my point that Alaafin is superior to Oba Ubinu.




I am waiting for you though to cite your reference for the Oyo account which claims Ajaka as the firat Alaafin.

I don catch am! grin grin grin
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by TAO11(f): 8:25am On Apr 10, 2020
samuk:


Very interesting, I remember the Awujale of Ijebu saying that the Ooni was not of royal descent.
These different Yoruba tribes once killed themselves with help of guns and mercenaries supplied by Benin.
The guys are just here spinning Benin history to unite themselves.
I now understand their pain and anger against Benin.You are a breath of fresh air.

Cc Gregyboy

R.C.C. Law and your alter ego (if not you yourself) called such account about the Ooni as myths, fabrications, etc.
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by samuk: 8:29am On Apr 10, 2020
gregyboy:



It seems you have agreed oghene is ife

Ife was not the only place people went for Oracle in the past.

Oghene could have been any of those other numerous places.
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 8:33am On Apr 10, 2020
TAO11:


Send his son, from where? grin grin grin

From Ife.

Which audio account is that Mr??

Stop the diatraction! What I asked from you simply is the Oyo account which claims Ajaka as first Alaafin. grin grin Cite it here.

It was from an article in a journal, and I don't think it was an "Oyo account" but more likely an Ife account. I'll look for it and try to find it again. This was nearly a decade ago that I read this and I don't keep notes on everything I read, otherwise I would have just quoted it directly.
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by samuk: 8:36am On Apr 10, 2020
TAO11:


R.C.C. Law and your alter ego (if not you yourself) called such account about the Ooni as myths, fabrications, etc.

You can't nitpick the sources that suits you. The historical sources that said the Ooni was a descendant of mere shrine keeper is one of the biggest Yoruba historian if not the biggest source of Yoruba history.

You are happy to quote Egharevba to support your Benin history but would want to refute Yoruba biggest historian, Johnson, on Yoruba history.

You can't pick and choose.

Yoruba Kiriji war was named after the sounds of the almighty Benin guns.
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by TAO11(f): 8:45am On Apr 10, 2020
SilverSniper:


From Ife.

(1)Left Benin, went back to Ife, then sends Ajaka to go and rule over a kingdom which is not yet founded.?? ?? .... Isn't God wonderful??

(2) Or was it before going to Benin at all?? ??Which means that Alaafin is still superior.

(3) However, you had stated earlier that this account you're talking of says he was with Ajaka in Oyo but later left Ajaka to be king at Oyo.

Did Oranmiyan leave Ajaka at Oyo or dis Oranmiyan send Ajaka to Oyo.

Which one of these two contradictioms does this your audio account say?? ??

It was from an article in a journal, and I don't think it was an "Oyo account" but more likely an Ife account. I'll look for it and try to find it again. This was nearly a decade ago that I read this and I don't keep notes on everything I read, otherwise I would have just quoted it directly.

I pardon you laughable contradiction (a clear indication of your lie). I'm sure you never saw it coming.

I therefore ask you to decide on which one of these 2 contradictions you are searching your evidence for. grin grin cheesy

But until then, your account remains an audio account.

The account of Oranmiyan being the first Alaafin therefore remains unchallenged by anything.

Thus, Alaafin remains superior to Oba Ubinu. grin grin
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 8:52am On Apr 10, 2020
TAO11:


(1)Left Benin, went back to Ife, then sends Ajaka to go and rule over a kingdom which is not yet founded. .... Isn't God wonderful??

(2) Or was it before going to Benin at all? Which means that Alaafin is superior.

(3) However, you had stated earlier that this account you're talking of says he was with Ajaka in Oyo but later left Ajaka to be king at Oyo.



It becomes clear from the contradiction of (1)/(2) vs. (3) --- that is, sent him there Or left him there?? ?? ?? cheesy grin grin


I pardon you laughable contradiction (an indication of your lie) and I therefore ask you to decide on which one of the 2 contradictions are you searching evidence for. grin grin cheesy


Until then, your account remains an audio account.


The account of Oranmiyan being first Alaafin remains unchallenged by anything.

Thus, Alaafin remains superior to thw Oba Ubinu. grin grin

It's not a lie - I remember it distinctly being different from the standard or most popular account from Johnson and involving this detail about Ajaka - and I did mean "sent' initially not "left"; I didn't mean to indicate that he was with Ajaka at Oyo and left him there so that was just poor phrasing on my part I should have just said he left the Oyo monarchy to his son Ajaka rather than saying "left Ajaka to rule in Oyo" as if he had taken Ajaka with him to Oyo and then left him there (which isn't what I meant).

Edit: Actually after looking back at my earlier posts, I was in fact just saying that the other account stated that he established his son Ajaka as the first Alafin, and I don't think my phrasing even implies that he had taken Ajaka with him, though I see how someone could be read it that way.

(1) (2) (3) ... (11) (12) (13) (14) (15) (16) (17) ... (52) (Reply)

Today In Ondo Town, Ladies Are Not Allowed To Go Out / Nigerian Christmas Carols In Yoruba / Salihu Tanko, Emir Of Kagara Is Dead

(Go Up)

Sections: politics (1) business autos (1) jobs (1) career education (1) romance computers phones travel sports fashion health
religion celebs tv-movies music-radio literature webmasters programming techmarket

Links: (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10)

Nairaland - Copyright © 2005 - 2021 Oluwaseun Osewa. All rights reserved. See How To Advertise. 324
Disclaimer: Every Nairaland member is solely responsible for anything that he/she posts or uploads on Nairaland.