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Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife - Culture (36) - Nairaland

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Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by gregyboy(m): 3:24am On Apr 15, 2020
TAO11:


You're asking about when Benin stopped using Ogiso??

Is that what you're asking??


Am brought the word oba to benin....?


Dont give me d crap of oromiyan or ife

Benin conquests into yorubas areas started 15c

Assuming yorubas owned the world then tell me who brought it
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by TAO11(f): 3:34am On Apr 15, 2020
gregyboy:



Am brought the word oba to benin....?


Dont give me d crap of oromiyan or ife

Benin conquests into yorubas areas started 15c

Assuming yorubas owned the world then tell me who brought it

Oranmiyan of course, why are you afraid??

See attachment below. Make sure you digest it, because I will ask you questions about it. grin

1 Share

Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by samuk: 7:56am On Apr 15, 2020
TAO11:


Oranmiyan of course, why are you afraid??

See attachment below. Make sure you digest it, because I will ask you questions about it. grin

So Oranmiyan brought a word that no ruler in Yoruba land at that time was using. A word that wasn't indigenous to Ife at that time, because you haven't shown that it was in Ife lexicon almost 1000 years ago.

All you have shown us is that it was used in Oyo 300 years ago.

We all know that Oyo and Ife weren't the same 1000 years ago

How could Oranmiyan had brought it to Benin If the word belongs to Oyo dialect and Oyo is a younger kingdom to Benin in terms of age.

If Oranmiyan brought it to Benin, why was it not used for over 700 years as title of Yoruba kings.

If you argue it was used, which Yoruba king used the title Oba until the 1900s

We know Yoruba have dozens of different dialects which are mutually unintelligible and it's implausible that ba or Oba would have meant the same thing in all these different dialects as you have claimed.

Oba is a word Oyo borrowed from Benin and it went into the wider Yoruba Lexicon due to the adoption of Oyo dialect as the standard Yoruba language less than 200 years.

This also account for the lack of the use of the word for centuries in any of the various Yoruba tribes.

The used of Oba amongst Yoruba Obas begin to gain ground in modern day Yoruba land as the Oyo dialect gained grounds and became the dominant language of the Yorubas.

These captured tribes into the wider Yoruba tribes only started using Oba as title for their kings after 1900s.
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by gregyboy(m): 9:15am On Apr 15, 2020
TAO11:


Oranmiyan of course, why are you afraid??

See attachment below. Make sure you digest it, because I will ask you questions about it. grin


No i dont get do you expect to buy this rubbish


Did you forget that archeologists found out oyo is older than benin and benin is older than ife


Egharevba works you and your kinsmen keep citing were one of his old works which he later corrected
But TAO11 keep citing him

But if he sees ryder work he will call old against adam knobler works which was made in 2016


TAO11, if were are to look blindly in assumption
The story says oromiyan didnt get to benin he stayed at ughoton were he got angry and left after impregnating the chiefs daughter,
Lets assume he left some of of his entourage that later crowned him oba What was thier names....

Of you cant tell me then quit circulating that fucking made up history
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by MelesZenawi: 12:19pm On Apr 15, 2020
I think at this point, you guys should call it a quit but few points has been established..

1. The history of Bini is not complete without the mention of Yorubas

2. The history of Yorubas aren't complete without the mention of of Binis.

3. Both without further argument has both ancestry more reason the argument draws longer and also points to one thing always

4. Both without bias are just brothers , same people just with different names.

5. Both are just one people , one blood and that's why it is hard to argue the matter.

Finally....Yoruba and binis are just blood brothers with different names due to age long movement.


Let the argument end as these facts has been established.

cc


gregyboy
TAO11
Samuk
geosegun
Hbrid99
davidnazee
AreaFada2
SilverSniper
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by samuk: 12:32pm On Apr 15, 2020
SilverSniper:


The historian Elizabeth Isichei is one scholar that did suggest (in A history of Nigeria), when discussing the Beni Nupe confederacy, that Ryder drifted away from his 1965 suggestion in his 1969 book:

"If there was a real dynastic link with Nupe this seems doubtful. It seems more probable that statements about a common heritage rest on the accidental verbal similarity between Benin and Beni. It is noteworthy that Ryder, who questioned the Ife connection and argued the case for linkages with a northern kingdom, abandoned the line of argument in his later book, Benin and the Europeans" - Elizabeth Isichei, A history of Nigeria, Volume 2, p. 137

However after re-reading his 1969 book I found that he does not actually do so at all. On page 7 of the 1969 book, Ryder cites his 1965 article, where his position was that the reference to east should perhaps be interpreted as the correct, and literal direction (although allowing for other possibilities about its meaning) that the Benin informants intended to indicate to the Portuguese about where the "Oghene" lived, (Oghene is a word meaning "great lord" in Edo (Bini), but which is used to refer to God in some other Edoid languages in modern times; of course God in Edo (Bini) is Osa, Osanobua, Osanobua Noghodua (God almighty), etc.) without changing his position.

In his 1969 book when discussing the origins of the dynasty of the Obas of Benin, Ryder cites his 1965 article on p. 7 and he does not indicate that his position had changed:

"1. cf. A.F.C. Ryder, 'A reconsideration of the Ife-Benin relationship'. Journal of African History, vol. VI, i (1965). This article examines the evidence for and against the tradition which identifies the Oghene with the Yoruba Oni of Ife, and suggests that many conflicts could be resolved by ascribing a more northerly origin to the dynasty. It is further argued that the origin of the name Benin might be sought in this direction."

I believe Isichei simply misread or did not accurately recall what Ryder's position was in his 1969 book. John Thornton's 1988 article about the Ife-Benin issue, where he cites Ryder's work repeatedly, does not make any note of Ryder changing his position at any point. I think Isichei was simply mistaken about this point.

I found out later on that the idea that the "Oghene" was indeed literally to the east of Benin, as stated twice in two different primary sources - first by Duarte Pacheco Pereira (in Esmeraldo de Situ Orbis) and later by João de Barros (in Décadas da Ásia, First Decade, Book III), was not exclusive to Ryder or Thornton. Decades before either Ryder or Thornton put forward their theories, Charles K. Meek had suggested (in his 1931 book A Sudanese Kingdom: An Ethnographical Study of the Jukun-speaking Peoples of Nigeria) that the "Ogane"/"Hooguanee" mentioned by Pereira and then by de Barros was possibly the ruler of the ancient Kwararafa state, based on the fact that the distance given in the original account (two hundred and fifty leagues east of Benin in de Barros' account) and the direction (east) line up with the location of the ancient Kwararafa state relative to Benin.

Of further interest is that the ancient Kwararafa state was a brass/bronze casting center (exquisite ancient brass or bronze artifacts have been found from there, Leo Frobenius's assistant made some drawings of some of these during one of Frobenius's expeditions to Nigeria in the early 20th century). The Kwararafa "empire" or "confederacy" was supposedly also ruled by a divine "priest king" in the past, according to what both P.A. Talbot and Meek found during their research in the early 20th century, and it had numerous surrounding groups under its authority or influence. Of course there is also supposed to be some sort of significant historical connection between Kwararafa and Igala, or at least Jukun and Igala, according to the thinking of most researchers on precolonial Nigerian history. Also, in his 1965 article, on p. 35, Ryder also proposes a possible Kwararafa connection to Benin as Meek did decades earlier.

Meek also made one surprising comment in his book on the Jukun. He mentions (on p. 50) a certain name and states that "among the Jukun at the present time it is the title of the official who supervises the burial rites of the kings of Wukari". What was surprising - or rather, peculiar - to me is that Meek claims that that name was also found at Benin. I would include the full quote but I do not have the book on me right now.

An interesting article along this line of thought, with regard to the ancient Kwararafa state, before its defeat and destruction by the Bornu empire, is R. Gray - "Christian Traces and a Franciscan Mission in the Central Sudan, 1700–1711" Journal of African History 7 (1967): 383-393. That article might be relevant, if some of the details stated there about crosses are more than just coincidental.

Edit: Upon re-reading Ryder's 1965 article I made a correction above to my original post about his stance on the direction indicated in the sources.

Interesting read.
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by samuk: 12:38pm On Apr 15, 2020
MelesZenawi:
I think at this point, you guys should call it a quit but few points has been established..

1. The history of Bini is not complete without the mention of Yorubas

2. The history of Yorubas aren't complete without the mention of of Binis.

3. Both without further argument has both ancestry more reason the argument draws longer and also points to one thing always

4. Both without bias are just brothers , same people just with different names.

5. Both are just one people , one blood and that's why it is hard to argue the matter.

Finally....Yoruba and binis are just blood brothers with different names due to age long movement.



Let the argument end as these facts has been established.

cc


gregyboy
TAO11
Samuk
geosegun
Hbrid99
davidnazee
AreaFada2
SilverSniper

If you are looking at it from the age long movement point of view, then Benin are brothers to various tribes that cut across southern Nigeria.
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by MelesZenawi: 12:46pm On Apr 15, 2020
samuk:


If you are looking at it from the age long movement point of view, then Benin are brothers to various tribes that cut across southern Nigeria.

Yes and I agree with people like Urhobo, Itshekiri and Isoko..

All these arguments captures it in one way or the other and the argument draws in trying to establish what all stands for...

Yorubas also has their trace with Itshekiri and you can see how inter women this circle is...

A quit is necessary.... Movement here Simply means the back and forth Bini/Oyo/Ife movement, delegates and the rest.
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by TerraCotta(m): 12:55pm On Apr 15, 2020
SilverSniper:


Hello TerraCotta! Long time no see. Yeah, that's me. I forgot the login details for my old account(s) since it's been years since I signed on and posted here, and I couldn't remember where I had those details saved, so I just made a new account. I would be interested in anything you have to share regarding references to the use of such polishing in traditional/ancient Nigerian architecture.

I know what you mean. It’s been about five years for me as well but Covid-19 is giving everyone more spare leisure time than we know what to do with! That old post where you referenced the Benin wall-polishing technique stood out to me for two major reasons:

A) I like to keep track of descriptions of architecture, engineering and construction methods etc and while I’d taken note of lots of murals, paintings , carved columns and the like, I hadn’t noticed those references in the first-hand literature, and
B) I had seen many more references to the ritual importance of reflective or glittering surfaces (now generally assumed to be mica or quartz-rich soil), which were used in the design of Ife terra cotta sculpture and pottery, potsherd pavements etc.

At any event, in re-reading some material over the years (mostly 19th-century missionary descriptions of western and northern Nigeria but also noted in contemporary descriptions of Asante buildings and I believe Dahomean palace architecture), I kept an eye out for similar material and found the following (by no means exhaustive, as I’m still trying to remember the various other places I’ve noted these):

“Meroke's house, like others in Oshielle, has a high wall next to the street, on each side ; it is built in a square. A gate, carved with the head of an idol, opens into the street; there is a court-yard in the centre, and the rooms are built all round the inte rior of the square ; the sloping roof pro jecting beyond them forms a verandah. This verandah is the reception-place for friends: "the Tortoise," says the Yoruba proverb of an inhospitable man, "builds his house, and makes the verandah behind it;"* it is also, especially in hot weather, the bed-room. Meroke takes up the mat on which she has been lying, and begins to sweep out her house. She has a short brush with which she sets to work. The polished walls and floor, shine, as it is said in Yoruba, "like the rain clouds, beautifully black," and the floor the same...”

From page 11 of “Oshielle, Or, Village Life in the Yoruba Country: From the Journals and Letters of a Catechist There, Describing the Rise of a Christian Church in an African Village” by Mary Ann Barber, 1857

Reverend Samuel Johnson described a similar process in “History of the Yorubas” (page 99): “the houses are without any decorations; the walls are plastered and polished with black and sometimes red earth by the women whose work it generally is. The houses of Kings and Princes are embellished with a sort of wash which is a decoction made from the skin of the locust fruit.”

I can remember reading similar descriptions in Reverend RH Stone’s “In Afric’s Forest and Jungle”, “Travels and Explorations in Yorubaland 1854-1858” by William Clarke (which also contain excellent recording of indigenous landscaping and agriculture alongside architecture and sports etc) along with others like TJ Bowen but I’ll have to look closer at those works to find them. There are alternative descriptions of whitewashed walls, which were accomplished by used lime and shell mixtures and I believe this is still practiced in some traditional shrines etc.

Your example of the similar traditional Japanese practice in that old thread helped me visualize this effect and made it stick out in my mind when I re-read some of these works, as I like to do every few years.

1 Like 1 Share

Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by gregyboy(m): 1:00pm On Apr 15, 2020
MelesZenawi:
I think at this point, you guys should call it a quit but few points has been established..

1. The history of Bini is not complete without the mention of Yorubas

2. The history of Yorubas aren't complete without the mention of of Binis.

3. Both without further argument has both ancestry more reason the argument draws longer and also points to one thing always

4. Both without bias are just brothers , same people just with different names.

5. Both are just one people , one blood and that's why it is hard to argue the matter.

Finally....Yoruba and binis are just blood brothers with different names due to age long movement.


Let the argument end as these facts has been established.

cc


gregyboy
TAO11
Samuk
geosegun
Hbrid99
davidnazee
AreaFada2
SilverSniper


We were never brothers to this weakling who hide behind false history to attach benin grestness to itself


If you have been following the thread you will know Oduduwa never existed it was a political stage myth


Because britsh conquered nigeria and nigeria inturn practice british culture does that equate nigeria and Britain as brothers


Why would you be supporting nonsense, if you want to mediate then go back to the beginning of thread and readto the last dont just come and say rubbish because you want to make peace


You as an igbo you will be the first to insult benins if we say onistcha people come from benin
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by gregyboy(m): 1:52pm On Apr 15, 2020
SilverSniper:


The historian Elizabeth Isichei is one scholar that did suggest (in A history of Nigeria), when discussing the Beni Nupe confederacy, that Ryder drifted away from his 1965 suggestion in his 1969 book:

"If there was a real dynastic link with Nupe this seems doubtful. It seems more probable that statements about a common heritage rest on the accidental verbal similarity between Benin and Beni. It is noteworthy that Ryder, who questioned the Ife connection and argued the case for linkages with a northern kingdom, abandoned the line of argument in his later book, Benin and the Europeans" - Elizabeth Isichei, A history of Nigeria, Volume 2, p. 137

However after re-reading his 1969 book I found that he does not actually do so at all. On page 7 of the 1969 book, Ryder cites his 1965 article, where his position was that the reference to east should perhaps be interpreted as the correct, and literal direction (although allowing for other possibilities about its meaning) that the Benin informants intended to indicate to the Portuguese about where the "Oghene" lived, (Oghene is a word meaning "great lord" in Edo (Bini), but which is used to refer to God in some other Edoid languages in modern times; of course God in Edo (Bini) is Osa, Osanobua, Osanobua Noghodua (God almighty), etc.) without changing his position.

In his 1969 book when discussing the origins of the dynasty of the Obas of Benin, Ryder cites his 1965 article on p. 7 and he does not indicate that his position had changed:

"1. cf. A.F.C. Ryder, 'A reconsideration of the Ife-Benin relationship'. Journal of African History, vol. VI, i (1965). This article examines the evidence for and against the tradition which identifies the Oghene with the Yoruba Oni of Ife, and suggests that many conflicts could be resolved by ascribing a more northerly origin to the dynasty. It is further argued that the origin of the name Benin might be sought in this direction."

I believe Isichei simply misread or did not accurately recall what Ryder's position was in his 1969 book. John Thornton's 1988 article about the Ife-Benin issue, where he cites Ryder's work repeatedly, does not make any note of Ryder changing his position at any point. I think Isichei was simply mistaken about this point.

I found out later on that the idea that the "Oghene" was indeed literally to the east of Benin, as stated twice in two different primary sources - first by Duarte Pacheco Pereira (in Esmeraldo de Situ Orbis) and later by João de Barros (in Décadas da Ásia, First Decade, Book III), was not exclusive to Ryder or Thornton. Decades before either Ryder or Thornton put forward their theories, Charles K. Meek had suggested (in his 1931 book A Sudanese Kingdom: An Ethnographical Study of the Jukun-speaking Peoples of Nigeria) that the "Ogane"/"Hooguanee" mentioned by Pereira and then by de Barros was possibly the ruler of the ancient Kwararafa state, based on the fact that the distance given in the original account (two hundred and fifty leagues east of Benin in de Barros' account) and the direction (east) line up with the location of the ancient Kwararafa state relative to Benin.

Of further interest is that the ancient Kwararafa state was a brass/bronze casting center (exquisite ancient brass or bronze artifacts have been found from there, Leo Frobenius's assistant made some drawings of some of these during one of Frobenius's expeditions to Nigeria in the early 20th century). The Kwararafa "empire" or "confederacy" was supposedly also ruled by a divine "priest king" in the past, according to what both P.A. Talbot and Meek found during their research in the early 20th century, and it had numerous surrounding groups under its authority or influence. Of course there is also supposed to be some sort of significant historical connection between Kwararafa and Igala, or at least Jukun and Igala, according to the thinking of most researchers on precolonial Nigerian history. Also, in his 1965 article, on p. 35, Ryder also proposes a possible Kwararafa connection to Benin as Meek did decades earlier.

Meek also made one surprising comment in his book on the Jukun. He mentions (on p. 50) a certain name and states that "among the Jukun at the present time it is the title of the official who supervises the burial rites of the kings of Wukari". What was surprising - or rather, peculiar - to me is that Meek claims that that name was also found at Benin. I would include the full quote but I do not have the book on me right now.

An interesting article along this line of thought, with regard to the ancient Kwararafa state, before its defeat and destruction by the Bornu empire, is R. Gray - "Christian Traces and a Franciscan Mission in the Central Sudan, 1700–1711" Journal of African History 7 (1967): 383-393. That article might be relevant, if some of the details stated there about crosses are more than just coincidental.

Edit: Upon re-reading Ryder's 1965 article I made a correction above to my original post about his stance on the direction indicated in the sources.


Please we need more of this article


Do you mean the crosses were still found in that area


Again were did the dwarfs in benin the Portuguese recorded go to, did they go into extinction because of ritual use.....


Please we need full article on this, so much info on one single writeup....

After so many years of tagging our history with yorubas the truth is finally coming out
Thanks to TAO11 and ghostwon i owe so much to you guys for bringing our real history into lime light

If only our oba will sponsor the research on those areas to ascertain the real existence of our history and stop dwelling around fairytale

In present times were the north has been stereotype to thier religion, this may hinder further research, most people forget islam just came to the north less than 300yrs ago and even the fulanis who brought it, were once pagan too


Pls help if you can give a full detail writeup on this details
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by geosegun(m): 1:57pm On Apr 15, 2020
MelesZenawi:
I think at this point, you guys should call it a quit but few points has been established..

1. The history of Bini is not complete without the mention of Yorubas

2. The history of Yorubas aren't complete without the mention of of Binis.

3. Both without further argument has both ancestry more reason the argument draws longer and also points to one thing always

4. Both without bias are just brothers , same people just with different names.

5. Both are just one people , one blood and that's why it is hard to argue the matter.

Finally....Yoruba and binis are just blood brothers with different names due to age long movement.


Let the argument end as these facts has been established.

cc


gregyboy
TAO11
Samuk
geosegun
Hbrid99
davidnazee
AreaFada2
SilverSniper

Well, I appreciate your summary. The Yorubas generally see Benin as ther younger brother by blood. Hence our grandparents will always say, 'okan naa ni wa' meaning we are the same. Hence, some of the reasons the generality of Yorubas will never fig8or engage the Benins in a duel.
Eko in Lagos state is an example. How can the Father fights the son? Hence the continuous growth of Benin Kingdom and was never violently controlled in some of the western axis.
We know they, especially the Benin rulers house, are our long but not lost brothers. The Oyo empire, despite all her powers never engaged Benin as we see it as a taboo.

But you know what, pride has not allow those of recent generations to accept this. They know it's the truth but pride and inferiority complex will not allow them to accept realities and move on. One of the reasons they destroyed the only legacy the had left in 1898. Stubbornness and arrogance are worst than some diseases.

FACT is Benin Kingdom is an extension of Yoruba civilisation and of course they are our brothers. This has been proven over and over again.

@MelesZenawi; thank you for an independent summary.

I rest my case.

1 Like

Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by MelesZenawi: 2:00pm On Apr 15, 2020
geosegun:


Well, I appreciate your summary. The Yorubas generally see Benin as ther younger brother by blood. Hence our grandparents will always say, 'okan naa ni wa' meaning we are the same. Hence, some of the reasons the generality of Yorubas will never fig8or engage the Benins in a duel.
Eko in Lagos state is an example. How can the Father fight the son? Hence the continuous growth of Benin Kingsom unchecked in some of the western axis.
We know they, especially the Benin rulers house, are our long but not lost brothers. The Oyo empire, despite all her powers never engaged Benin as we see it as a taboo.

But you know what, pride has not allow those of recent generations to accept this. They know it's the truth but pride and inferiority complex will not allow them to accept realities and move on. One of the reasons they destroyed the only legacy the had left in 1898. Stubbornness and arrogance are worst than some diseases.

FACT is Benin Kingdom is an extension of Yoruba civilisation and of course they are our brothers. This has been proven over and over again.

@MelesZenawi; thank you for an independent summary.

I rest my case.


You're most welcome.
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by TAO11(f): 2:00pm On Apr 15, 2020
gregyboy:



No i dont get do you expect to buy this rubbish


Did you forget that archeologists found out oyo is older than benin and benin is older than ife

No archaeologist (not even one) ever said Benin is older than Ife. grin

samuk once told this lie and he apologised for it. grin

Paul Ozanne's report of an archaeological survey of Ife establishes that many settlements have been established in Ife by at least the 4th century BC.

There is nothing even remotely close to that from Benin. grin

Thank you for lying thereby giving me the opportunity to whip you and make the truth popular.

Moreover the page I attached --- which states that the use of the word "Oba" by the Binis is from the Yorubas --- is not from Egharevba's work (I think you see Egharevba in your dreams grin).

It's from D. M. Bondarenko who is perhaps the leading authority on Benin Kingdom today.

Another liar just got killed in public. grin

1 Like 1 Share

Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by TAO11(f): 2:02pm On Apr 15, 2020
gregyboy:



Please we need more of this article


Do you mean the crosses were still found in that area


Again were did the dwarfs in benin the Portuguese recorded go to, did they go into extinction because of ritual use.....


Please we need full article on this, so much info on one single writeup....

After so many years of tagging our history with yorubas the truth is finally coming out
Thanks to TAO11 and ghostwon i owe so much to you guys for bringing our real history into lime light

If only our oba will sponsor the research on those areas to ascertain the real existence of our history and stop dwelling around fairytale

In present times were the north has been stereotype to thier religion, this may hinder further research, most people forget islam just came to the north less than 300yrs ago and even the fulanis who brought it, were once pagan too


Pls help if you can give a full detail writeup on this details

Lol. Those are suggestions of old. The debate have been settled in present times. grin
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by gregyboy(m): 3:27pm On Apr 15, 2020
TAO11:


No archaeologist (not even one) ever said Benin is older than Ife. grin

samuk once told this lie and he apologised for it. grin

Paul Ozanne's report of an archaeological survey of Ife establishes that many settlements have been established in Ife by at least the 4th century BC.

There is nothing even remotely close to that from Benin. grin

Thank you for lying thereby giving me the opportunity to whip you and make the truth popular.

Moreover the page I attached --- which states that the use of the word "Oba" by the Binis is from the Yorubas --- is not from Egharevba's work (I think you see Egharevba in your dreams grin).

It's from D. M. Bondarenko who is perhaps the leading authority on Benin Kingdom today.

Another liar just got killed in public. grin


Ok can we get the evidence....

Yea the link youre going to share must ascertain why they believe ife is as old as 4th century if it's just mere claims you know i will push it aside
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by gregyboy(m): 3:39pm On Apr 15, 2020
TAO11:


Lol. Those are suggestions of old. The debate have been settled in present times. grin


Lol, and you keep citing egharevba old works


Am still waiting for the scholars who settled it,
And how did they come to thier conclusions


Mumuboy...
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by gregyboy(m): 3:44pm On Apr 15, 2020
TAO11:


No archaeologist (not even one) ever said Benin is older than Ife. grin

samuk once told this lie and he apologised for it. grin

Paul Ozanne's report of an archaeological survey of Ife establishes that many settlements have been established in Ife by at least the 4th century BC.

There is nothing even remotely close to that from Benin. grin

Thank you for lying thereby giving me the opportunity to whip you and make the truth popular.

Moreover the page I attached --- which states that the use of the word "Oba" by the Binis is from the Yorubas --- is not from Egharevba's work (I think you see Egharevba in your dreams grin).

It's from D. M. Bondarenko who is perhaps the leading authority on Benin Kingdom today.

Another liar just got killed in public. grin

Samuk
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by gregyboy(m): 3:55pm On Apr 15, 2020
geosegun:


Well, I appreciate your summary. The Yorubas generally see Benin as ther younger brother by blood. Hence our grandparents will always say, 'okan naa ni wa' meaning we are the same. Hence, some of the reasons the generality of Yorubas will never fig8or engage the Benins in a duel.
Eko in Lagos state is an example. How can the Father fights the son? Hence the continuous growth of Benin Kingdom and was never violently controlled in some of the western axis.
We know they, especially the Benin rulers house, are our long but not lost brothers. The Oyo empire, despite all her powers never engaged Benin as we see it as a taboo.

But you know what, pride has not allow those of recent generations to accept this. They know it's the truth but pride and inferiority complex will not allow them to accept realities and move on. One of the reasons they destroyed the only legacy the had left in 1898. Stubbornness and arrogance are worst than some diseases.

FACT is Benin Kingdom is an extension of Yoruba civilisation and of course they are our brothers. This has been proven over and over again.

@MelesZenawi; thank you for an independent summary.

I rest my case.


I keep telling you stop saying what you can prove

We can prove we bleeped your women and killed your men and install our men to rule you

The ife story is cook and bull story told for political gain

What is it with the yorubas always attaching themselves to greatness or power, see the present yorubas today in nigeria they would lick the ass of the northerners to stick to power and
They will twist thier history and attach edo to it

They cant tell thier stories without including benin


Benin history they sweet sha, unlike the yoruba history that makes one sleep whie reading

Who said benin never engaged oyo are you sleeping in this thread? when davidnazee and samuk posted a documented history by the Portuguese, of benin engaging oyo against ekiti invasion
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by TerraCotta(m): 3:56pm On Apr 15, 2020
SilverSniper:


The historian Elizabeth Isichei is one scholar that did suggest (in A history of Nigeria), when discussing the Beni Nupe confederacy, that Ryder drifted away from his 1965 suggestion in his 1969 book:

"If there was a real dynastic link with Nupe this seems doubtful. It seems more probable that statements about a common heritage rest on the accidental verbal similarity between Benin and Beni. It is noteworthy that Ryder, who questioned the Ife connection and argued the case for linkages with a northern kingdom, abandoned the line of argument in his later book, Benin and the Europeans" - Elizabeth Isichei, A history of Nigeria, Volume 2, p. 137

However after re-reading his 1969 book I found that he does not actually do so at all. On page 7 of the 1969 book, Ryder cites his 1965 article, where his position was that the reference to east should perhaps be interpreted as the correct, and literal direction (although allowing for other possibilities about its meaning) that the Benin informants intended to indicate to the Portuguese about where the "Oghene" lived, (Oghene is a word meaning "great lord" in Edo (Bini), but which is used to refer to God in some other Edoid languages in modern times; of course God in Edo (Bini) is Osa, Osanobua, Osanobua Noghodua (God almighty), etc.) without changing his position.

In his 1969 book when discussing the origins of the dynasty of the Obas of Benin, Ryder cites his 1965 article on p. 7 and he does not indicate that his position had changed:

"1. cf. A.F.C. Ryder, 'A reconsideration of the Ife-Benin relationship'. Journal of African History, vol. VI, i (1965). This article examines the evidence for and against the tradition which identifies the Oghene with the Yoruba Oni of Ife, and suggests that many conflicts could be resolved by ascribing a more northerly origin to the dynasty. It is further argued that the origin of the name Benin might be sought in this direction."

I believe Isichei simply misread or did not accurately recall what Ryder's position was in his 1969 book. John Thornton's 1988 article about the Ife-Benin issue, where he cites Ryder's work repeatedly, does not make any note of Ryder changing his position at any point. I think Isichei was simply mistaken about this point.

I found out later on that the idea that the "Oghene" was indeed literally to the east of Benin, as stated twice in two different primary sources - first by Duarte Pacheco Pereira (in Esmeraldo de Situ Orbis) and later by João de Barros (in Décadas da Ásia, First Decade, Book III), was not exclusive to Ryder or Thornton. Decades before either Ryder or Thornton put forward their theories, Charles K. Meek had suggested (in his 1931 book A Sudanese Kingdom: An Ethnographical Study of the Jukun-speaking Peoples of Nigeria) that the "Ogane"/"Hooguanee" mentioned by Pereira and then by de Barros was possibly the ruler of the ancient Kwararafa state, based on the fact that the distance given in the original account (two hundred and fifty leagues east of Benin in de Barros' account) and the direction (east) line up with the location of the ancient Kwararafa state relative to Benin.

My views on this issue haven’t changed dramatically over the years and I’ve expressed them in the many fruitful discussions we’ve had about the issue in past years. I’m at home and close enough to my library to be able to reference both older and more recent scholarship that can help illuminate this issue of the identity of the Ogane/Oghene, and the idea of a common origin of the current Ife-Benin monarchic traditions and their connection to the area of central Nigeria where the Niger and Benue rivers meet.

While Ryder should get some credit for his hypothesis on this issue, the idea that the Niger-Benue confluence area is key to southern Nigerian cultural history has been widely-accepted since at least the 1970s, more due to the work of historical linguistics isolating that area as the source of Kwa-languages, i.e. “The implications of modern linguistic research both fit in with and supplement those of archaeological research. They suggest that Yoruba, Edo, Igala, Idoma, Igbo, Nupe, Emirates and Gabri form a cluster of languages within the larger Kwa group, centered roughly on the area of the Niger-Benue Confluence,” (Ade Obayemi in “The Yoruba and Edo-speaking peoples and their neighbors before 1600”, History of West Africa, Vol. 1, Longman Publishers, 1971).

What is important to note for this discussion is that neither Pacheco Pierrera or Joao de Avieros (de Barros in some transcriptions) introduced the concept of the Ogane/Houganee as a pre-eminent governmental or religious power in our area. That idea dates back to the 1375 map of global kingdoms called the Atlas, made by Europe’s leading cartographer of that period, Abraham Cresques: https://www.earthlymission.com/catalan-atlas-medieval-world-map/.

That 1375 map identifies a mysterious figure called the Rey de Organa (i.e. “King of Organa”), which appears to reference the Ogane/Oghene title under discussion. The Rey de Organa is portrayed as leading the most important trade point/monarchic area east of Mansa Musa’s Mali, and this is notable because Mansa Musa’s unimaginable wealth from gold mining had recently been unveiled to the world in spectacular fashion following his pilgrimage to Mecca, where his entourage caused a global devolution in gold prices with the amount of gold they spent during the trip.

It’s also good to note that the Catalan Atlas was so accurate because its maker (Cresques) was a member of a Jewish trading family in Spain with extensive contacts throughout northern (and presumably western) Africa, and as these families traded in the exotic luxury goods produced in these areas (likely including glass jewelry but almost certainly ivory and rare birds and feathers, which is an important point as we shall see later), they had strong motivations to understand the politics and polities in this region.

At any rate, the Catalan Atlas became a central inspiration for the Portuguese court’s sponsorship of exploration into West Africa and establishes this Organa (Ogane/Oghene) as a leading political/religious figure about 100 years before Joao de Aveiros refers to the leader with a similar title who is responsible for consecrating the leader of Benin’s royal symbols etc. This is detailed further on page 6 of Suzanne Preston Blier’s “Art and Risk in Ancient Yoruba: Ife History, Power and Identity c. 1300,” Cambridge University Press, 2015.

The similarity between the titles of Organa/Ogane/Oghene and Ooni are plain enough to readers, but there are other historical, linguistic and glottochronological reasons that satisfactorily suggest a connection. First is the unpublished Ikedu oral history tradition in Ife collected by Professor IA Akinjogbin and cited by Professor Blier in her book. This citation (similar to the oriki poetic traditions that most Yoruba families will be familiar with) provides a list of rulers and details of reigns before the arrival of “Oduduwa” and establishment of his dynasty. The title of the ancient Ife line of kings is rendered as “Ogane” in this oral history, according to Akinjogbin and Blier. Unfortunately, Akinjogbin’s records on the poems (which Blier has read and cites in her book) has not been published and remain in his field notes.

Blier does provide the name of the first Ogane of Ife as “Awire”, and dates his reign to around 700 CE (or AD if you prefer) based on an average reign length of 13 years (the accepted method used by African oral historians). She notes that this makes Ife one of the three earliest-founded surviving dynasties in the world (Japan and Rajasthan in northern India date from roughly that period of 660-750 CE as well).

The other linguistic evidence is a little bit of supposition by me but makes perfect sense for those familiar with linguistic shifts etc. Yoruba is a language that is particularly rich in ellision and contraction. You will see “Oduduwa” frequently rendered as “Odua” or “Oodua”, just as certain proper names are the result of ellision (“Adekunle” being “Ade kun ninu ile” etc. I think it’s a good bet that the modern form “Ooni” is a contraction of an older term similar to “Ogane/Oghene/Organa”, and this is indicated by the “double-O” in the written form, which almost always signifies that the term is the contracted form of a word featuring two vowels (as in “Oduduwa” becoming “Oodua”).

Even more interesting is the central linchpin that I think even Professor Blier may have missed, although I’d have to look through the book again to be sure. The terms “Ogane/Organa/Oghene” are themselves close European renderings of a very familiar Yoruba term denoting the central political organization in the Yoruba-speaking area (including Igala) one that still exists to this day and means quite clearly an aged and respected political and religious leader. What is the term?

Ogboni.”

In precolonial times, this was often described as the regional version of a senator, someone who sat as part of a judicial and governmental association (with strong ties to trade and economic development, as Blier notes). An “Ogboni”, denoting a member but also the association as a whole,” was “the real power in the country”, according to the many references we read in Richard Burton’s works, in Leo Frobenius’ “Voice of Africa” and many, many more. A variant of the word is “Ogbeni” in modern Yoruba, which denotes a gentleman or someone of upright social standing. The older variant of the term and its explicit ties to government and religious observance fits the record quite neatly for me, however. In earlier posts on this topic, I had proposed that I found the simple references to precolonial Nigerian polities as “kingdoms” and “empires” too simplistic to capture the variation of political and economic organization, and I think this confusion of titles, terms and kingdom names typified by the “Ogane/Oghene/Organa” etc debate is a particularly poignant example. In the future, scholars will have to expand their analysis beyond European models of political organization, art, architecture, economic systems etc. to get a clearer picture of the African past. Historical linguistics/glottochronology and archaeology will probably be the most useful tools, but it takes a certain amount of imagination to interprete what the facts and clues allude to.

Note: I am not interested in the modern Nigerian connection with cults and the bloodsucking fairy tales often peddled by pastors etc so I will be ignoring the inevitable references to that in future replies.

There is also the fascinating issue of Ile-Ife’s direct connection to the Niger-Benue confluence region, which as I’ve mentioned in past posts is the key to the commonwealth of cultural history shared by Nigerian groups connected to the area. I believe I’ve posted this before, but in the very first references we have to Ife’s role as the place of creation, it’s foundation is clearly linked to a “great river” and the idea of crossing that river and establishing new settlements along its banks and tributaries.

Reverend Ajayi Crowther says in his “Vocabulary of the Yoruba Language” (1852 edition, which expands on his earlier 1843 work) that “It is said by the Yorubans that fifteen persons were sent from a certain region, and that a sixteenth, whose name was Okambi (an only child), and who was afterwards made King of Yoruba, volunteered to accompany them ... on opening the gate of this unknown region, they observed a large expanse of water...” The passage is long but available to read in full here (in the “Introductory Remarks”: https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_Grammar_of_the_Yoruba_Language/9yBKAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Samuel%20Crowther&pg=PR2&printsec=frontcover&bsq=Samuel%20Crowther

The long and the short of it is that this earliest written description of the founding of Ife describes it as an island of sorts on the shore of a great river. TJ Bowen records a similar tradition in the 1850s and concludes that Ife was likely founded further north and that the current town may not be the original location. What is relatively certain is that the confluence region of Jebba Island, where Ife-style naturalistic bronze and brass works like the Tada figure have been found, was as recently as the 19th-century a Yoruba-speaking border region with Nupe people. In fact, the Gbede/Gbedegi sub-group of the Nupe found in that region today are known to be originally Yoruba-speakers who “became” Nupe through contact with the legendary Tsoede (who is dated to post-15th century wars of expansion and therefore later than the 13th-14th century dates we are discussing for the Ogane/Oghene/Organa (and I would add) Ogboni.

One last point of interest here that we are again indebted to Professor Blier for—she discusses the importance of the pure-copper and Ife-style “Tada figure” found in this area, the nearly life-size sculpture of a seated man that is considered one of the most technically-accomplished artworks of its kind in the world: https://www.chron.com/entertainment/article/MFAH-exhibit-shows-a-side-of-African-art-few-know-1706619.php

This figure is importantly linked to Ife by art historians because of the similarities in proportion, naturalism and material usage (pure copper being also used for the naturalistic Obalufon mask in Ife) but Blier points out that the missing limbs, which have broken off over the years, suggest another important clue—they appear to have been arranged with the left thumb encircled by the right fist, which was and is a disctinctive ritual greeting gesture of none other than ... the Ogboni association.

Much more than I meant to type but hope it was interesting reading! I had more thoughts to add about Ibn-Battuta’s reference to the kingdom of Yufi and why contemporary scholars like Obayemi and Blier believe it to be another early reference to Ife (or as the locals would insist on it being called in eastern Yoruba dialects, “Ufe”) but I know that TAO has capably discussed that in one of her earlier posts so I’ll leave it there.

Good to be back to add what I can while I have some free time. There is also some interesting material on Kwararafa and the Apa polity (unclear if it was organized as a “kingdom”, “empire” etc) and its connection to geomancy (Ifa/Afa/ominigbon etc) but I’ll save that for some future post as well.

I’ve edited to add a few useful links to some material that’s’ available online, although most of the citations are from books that are only available In print unfortunately. I can add more information for those interested.

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Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by gregyboy(m): 4:20pm On Apr 15, 2020
TerraCotta:


My views on this issue haven’t changed dramatically over the years and I’ve expressed them in the many fruitful discussions we’ve had about the issue in past years. I’m at home and close enough to my library to be able to reference both older and more recent scholarship that can help illuminate this issue of the identity of the Ogane/Oghene, and the idea of a common origin of the current Ife-Benin monarchic traditions and their connection to the area of central Nigeria where the Niger and Benue rivers meet.

While Ryder should get some credit for his hypothesis on this issue, the idea that the Niger-Benue confluence area is key to southern Nigerian cultural history has been widely-accepted since at least the 1970s, more due to the work of historical linguistics isolating that area as the source of Kwa-languages, i.e. “The implications of modern linguistic research both fit in with and supplement those of archaeological research. They suggest that Yoruba, Edo, Igala, Idoma, Igbo, Nupe, Emirates and Gabri form a cluster of languages within the larger Kwa group, centered roughly on the area of the Niger-Benue Confluence,” (Ade Obayemi in “The Yoruba and Edo-speaking peoples and their neighbors before 1600”, History of West Africa, Vol. 1, Longman Publishers, 1971).

What is important to note for this discussion is that neither Pacheco Pierrera or Joao de Avieros (de Barros in some transcriptions) introduced the concept of the Ogane/Houganee as a pre-eminent governmental or religious power in our area. That idea dates back to the 1375 map of global kingdoms called the Atlas, made by Europe’s leading cartographer of that period, Abraham Cresques: https://www.earthlymission.com/catalan-atlas-medieval-world-map/.

That 1375 map identifies a mysterious figure called the Rey de Organa (i.e. “King of Organa”), which appears to reference the Ogane/Oghene title under discussion. The Rey de Organa is portrayed as leading the most important trade point/monarchic area east of Mansa Musa’s Mali, and this is notable because Mansa Musa’s unimaginable wealth from gold mining had recently been unveiled to the world in spectacular fashion following his pilgrimage to Mecca, where his entourage caused a global devolution in gold prices with the amount of gold they spent during the trip.

It’s also good to note that the Catalan Atlas was so accurate because its maker (Cresques) was a member of a Jewish trading family in Spain with extensive contacts throughout northern (and presumably western) Africa, and as these families traded in the exotic luxury goods produced in these areas (likely including glass jewelry but almost certainly ivory and rare birds and feathers, which is an important point as we shall see later), they had strong motivations to understand the politics and polities in this region.

At any rate, the Catalan Atlas became a central inspiration for the Portuguese court’s sponsorship of exploration into West Africa and establishes this Organa (Ogane/Oghene) as a leading political/religious figure about 100 years before Joao de Aveiros refers to the leader with a similar title who is responsible for consecrating the leader of Benin’s royal symbols etc. This is detailed further on page 6 of Suzanne Preston Blier’s “Art and Risk in Ancient Yoruba: Ife History, Power and Identity c. 1300,” Cambridge University Press, 2015.

The similarity between the titles of Organa/Ogane/Oghene and Ooni are plain enough to readers, but there are other historical, linguistic and glottochronological reasons that satisfactorily suggest a connection. First is the unpublished Ikedu oral history tradition in Ife collected by Professor IA Akinjogbin and cited by Professor Blier in her book. This citation (similar to the oriki poetic traditions that most Yoruba families will be familiar with) provides a list of rulers and details of reigns before the arrival of “Oduduwa” and establishment of his dynasty. The title of the ancient Ife line of kings is rendered as “Ogane” in this oral history, according to Akinjogbin and Blier. Unfortunately, Akinjogbin’s records on the poems (which Blier has read and cites in her book) has not been published and remain in his field notes.

Blier does provide the name of the first Ogane of Ife as “Awire”, and dates his reign to around 700 CE (or AD if you prefer) based on an average reign length of 13 years (the accepted method used by African oral historians). She notes that this makes Ife one of the three earliest-founded surviving dynasties in the world (Japan and Rajasthan in northern India date from roughly that period of 660-750 CE as well).

The other linguistic evidence is a little bit of supposition by me but makes perfect sense for those familiar with linguistic shifts etc. Yoruba is a language that is particularly rich in ellision and contraction. You will see “Oduduwa” frequently rendered as “Odua” or “Oodua”, just as certain proper names are the result of ellision (“Adekunle” being “Ade kun ninu ile” etc. I think it’s a good bet that the modern form “Ooni” is a contraction of an older term similar to “Ogane/Oghene/Organa”, and this is indicated by the “double-O” in the written form, which almost always signifies that the term is the contracted form of a word featuring two vowels (as in “Oduduwa” becoming “Oodua”).

Even more interesting is the central linchpin that I think even Professor Blier may have missed, although I’d have to look through the book again to be sure. The terms “Ogane/Organa/Oghene” are themselves close European renderings of a very familiar Yoruba term denoting the central political organization in the Yoruba-speaking area, one that still exists to this day and means quite clearly an aged and respected political and religious leader. What is the term?

“Ogboni”.

In precolonial times, this was the regional version of a senator, someone who sat as part of a judicial and governmental association (with strong ties to trade and economic development, as Blier notes). A variant of the word is “Ogbeni” in modern Yoruba, which denotes a gentleman or someone of upright social standing. The older variant of the term and its explicit ties to government and religious observance fits the record quite neatly for me, however.

There is also the fascinating issue of Ile-Ife’s direct connection to the Niger-Benue confluence region, which as I’ve mentioned in past posts is the key to the commonwealth of cultural history shared by Nigerian groups connected to the area. I believe I’ve posted this before, but in the very first references we have to Ife’s role as the place of creation, it’s foundation is clearly linked to a “great river” and the idea of crossing that river and establishing new settlements along its banks and tributaries.

Reverend Ajayi Crowther says in his “Vocabulary of the Yoruba Language” (1852 edition, which expands on his earlier 1843 work) that “It is said by the Yorubans that fifteen persons were sent from a certain region, and that a sixteenth, whose name was Okambi (an only child), and who was afterwards made King of Yoruba, volunteered to accompany them ... on opening the gate of this unknown region, they observed a large expanse of water...” The passage is long but available to read in full here (in the “Introductory Remarks”: https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_Grammar_of_the_Yoruba_Language/9yBKAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Samuel%20Crowther&pg=PR2&printsec=frontcover&bsq=Samuel%20Crowther

The long and the short of it is that this earliest written description of the founding of Ife describes it as an island of sorts on the shore of a great river. TJ Bowen records a similar tradition in the 1850s and concludes that Ife was likely founded further north and that the current town may not be the original location. What is relatively certain is that the confluence region of Jebba Island, where Ife-style naturalistic bronze and brass works like the Tada figure have been found, was as recently as the 19th-century a Yoruba-speaking border region with Nupe people. In fact, the Gbede/Gbedegi sub-group of the Nupe found in that region today are known to be originally Yoruba-speakers who “became” Nupe through contact with the legendary Tsoede (who is dated to post-15th century wars of expansion and therefore later than the 13th-14th century dates we are discussing for the Ogane/Oghene/Organa (and I would add) Ogboni.

One last point of interest here that we are again indebted to Professor Blier for—she discusses the importance of the pure-copper and Ife-style “Tada figure” found in this area, the nearly life-size sculpture of a seated man that is considered one of the most technically-accomplished artworks of its kind in the world: https://www.chron.com/entertainment/article/MFAH-exhibit-shows-a-side-of-African-art-few-know-1706619.php

This figure is importantly linked to Ife by art historians because of the similarities in proportion, naturalism and material usage (pure copper being also used for the naturalistic Obalufon mask in Ife) but Blier points out that the missing limbs, which have broken off over the years, suggest another important clue—they appear to have been arranged with the left thumb encircled by the right fist, which was and is a disctinctive ritual greeting gesture of none other than ... the Ogboni association.

Much more than I meant to type but hope it was interesting reading! I had more thoughts to add about Ibn-Battuta’s reference to the kingdom of Yufi and why contemporary scholars like Obayemi and Blier believe it to be another early reference to Ife (or as the locals would insist on it being called in eastern Yoruba dialects, “Ufe”) but I know that TAO has capably discussed that in one of her earlier posts so I’ll leave it there.

Good to be back to add what I can while I have some free time. There is also some interesting material on Kwararafa and the Apa polity (unclear if it was organized as a “kingdom”, “empire” etc) and its connection to geomancy (Ifa/Afa/ominigbon etc) but I’ll save that for some future post as well.

I’ve edited to add a few useful links to some material that’s’ available online, although most of the citations are from books that are only available In print unfortunately. I can add more information for those interested
.


They were all out off point


You falsely tried to connect yoruba and nupe which you failed

Tried to connect ogane to ife which you failed too

You failed in all round...

Try to use this your energy to connect it to the benins instead of a much more wider yorubas that you know little on.......
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by TerraCotta(m): 4:30pm On Apr 15, 2020
gregyboy:



They were all out off point


You falsely tried to connect yoruba and nupe which you failed

Tried to connect ogane to ife which you failed too

You failed in all round...

Try to use this your energy to connect it to the benins instead of a much more wider yorubas that you know little on.......

Thanks for your insightful contribution. I see that you joined this site in 2016 so you probably have not read the other lengthy discussions Physics/Silver Sniper and I have had on these topics in past years. Please go and read those and the works mentioned in them if you’re interested in the topic; otherwise, I’ll be ignoring your future posts as it’s clear you and I have very little in common when it comes to this material.

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Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by gregyboy(m): 4:36pm On Apr 15, 2020
TerraCotta:


Thanks for your insightful contribution. I see that you joined this site in 2016 so you probably have not read the other lengthy discussions Physics/Silver Sniper and I have had on these topics in past years. Please go and read those and the works mentioned in them if you’re interested in the topic; otherwise, I’ll be ignoring your future posts as it’s clear you and I have very little in common when it comes to this material.


Share me the link


So people had even doubted the benin and ife connection before now Interesting

Please share the link
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by TAO11(f): 4:46pm On Apr 15, 2020
gregyboy:


(1) Lol, and you keep citing egharevba old works

(2) Am still waiting for the scholars who settled it,

(3) And how did they come to thier conclusions

Mumuboy...

(1) Yes, his old works as they continue to be regarded as classics, even by world-renowned scholars such as Dr. R. E. Bradbury.

(2) Search the following: "Contemporary Scholarship on the Ife-Benin relationship", you should see their list. Don't make me think you're too daft to do this simple search.

(3) Like I have come to same conclusion on this thread. You can also start reading contemporary academic works on the subject to find out.

(4) Why do you keep signing your nickname (i.e. "Mumuboy") as a complementary close for your dvmbest comments ?? grin grin
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by TAO11(f): 4:49pm On Apr 15, 2020
TerraCotta:


My views on this issue haven’t changed dramatically over the years and I’ve expressed them in the many fruitful discussions we’ve had about the issue in past years. I’m at home and close enough to my library to be able to reference both older and more recent scholarship that can help illuminate this issue of the identity of the Ogane/Oghene, and the idea of a common origin of the current Ife-Benin monarchic traditions and their connection to the area of central Nigeria where the Niger and Benue rivers meet.

While Ryder should get some credit for his hypothesis on this issue, the idea that the Niger-Benue confluence area is key to southern Nigerian cultural history has been widely-accepted since at least the 1970s, more due to the work of historical linguistics isolating that area as the source of Kwa-languages, i.e. “The implications of modern linguistic research both fit in with and supplement those of archaeological research. They suggest that Yoruba, Edo, Igala, Idoma, Igbo, Nupe, Emirates and Gabri form a cluster of languages within the larger Kwa group, centered roughly on the area of the Niger-Benue Confluence,” (Ade Obayemi in “The Yoruba and Edo-speaking peoples and their neighbors before 1600”, History of West Africa, Vol. 1, Longman Publishers, 1971).

What is important to note for this discussion is that neither Pacheco Pierrera or Joao de Avieros (de Barros in some transcriptions) introduced the concept of the Ogane/Houganee as a pre-eminent governmental or religious power in our area. That idea dates back to the 1375 map of global kingdoms called the Atlas, made by Europe’s leading cartographer of that period, Abraham Cresques: https://www.earthlymission.com/catalan-atlas-medieval-world-map/.

That 1375 map identifies a mysterious figure called the Rey de Organa (i.e. “King of Organa”), which appears to reference the Ogane/Oghene title under discussion. The Rey de Organa is portrayed as leading the most important trade point/monarchic area east of Mansa Musa’s Mali, and this is notable because Mansa Musa’s unimaginable wealth from gold mining had recently been unveiled to the world in spectacular fashion following his pilgrimage to Mecca, where his entourage caused a global devolution in gold prices with the amount of gold they spent during the trip.

It’s also good to note that the Catalan Atlas was so accurate because its maker (Cresques) was a member of a Jewish trading family in Spain with extensive contacts throughout northern (and presumably western) Africa, and as these families traded in the exotic luxury goods produced in these areas (likely including glass jewelry but almost certainly ivory and rare birds and feathers, which is an important point as we shall see later), they had strong motivations to understand the politics and polities in this region.

At any rate, the Catalan Atlas became a central inspiration for the Portuguese court’s sponsorship of exploration into West Africa and establishes this Organa (Ogane/Oghene) as a leading political/religious figure about 100 years before Joao de Aveiros refers to the leader with a similar title who is responsible for consecrating the leader of Benin’s royal symbols etc. This is detailed further on page 6 of Suzanne Preston Blier’s “Art and Risk in Ancient Yoruba: Ife History, Power and Identity c. 1300,” Cambridge University Press, 2015.

The similarity between the titles of Organa/Ogane/Oghene and Ooni are plain enough to readers, but there are other historical, linguistic and glottochronological reasons that satisfactorily suggest a connection. First is the unpublished Ikedu oral history tradition in Ife collected by Professor IA Akinjogbin and cited by Professor Blier in her book. This citation (similar to the oriki poetic traditions that most Yoruba families will be familiar with) provides a list of rulers and details of reigns before the arrival of “Oduduwa” and establishment of his dynasty. The title of the ancient Ife line of kings is rendered as “Ogane” in this oral history, according to Akinjogbin and Blier. Unfortunately, Akinjogbin’s records on the poems (which Blier has read and cites in her book) has not been published and remain in his field notes.

Blier does provide the name of the first Ogane of Ife as “Awire”, and dates his reign to around 700 CE (or AD if you prefer) based on an average reign length of 13 years (the accepted method used by African oral historians). She notes that this makes Ife one of the three earliest-founded surviving dynasties in the world (Japan and Rajasthan in northern India date from roughly that period of 660-750 CE as well).

The other linguistic evidence is a little bit of supposition by me but makes perfect sense for those familiar with linguistic shifts etc. Yoruba is a language that is particularly rich in ellision and contraction. You will see “Oduduwa” frequently rendered as “Odua” or “Oodua”, just as certain proper names are the result of ellision (“Adekunle” being “Ade kun ninu ile” etc. I think it’s a good bet that the modern form “Ooni” is a contraction of an older term similar to “Ogane/Oghene/Organa”, and this is indicated by the “double-O” in the written form, which almost always signifies that the term is the contracted form of a word featuring two vowels (as in “Oduduwa” becoming “Oodua”).

Even more interesting is the central linchpin that I think even Professor Blier may have missed, although I’d have to look through the book again to be sure. The terms “Ogane/Organa/Oghene” are themselves close European renderings of a very familiar Yoruba term denoting the central political organization in the Yoruba-speaking area (including Igala) one that still exists to this day and means quite clearly an aged and respected political and religious leader. What is the term?

Ogboni.”

In precolonial times, this was often described as the regional version of a senator, someone who sat as part of a judicial and governmental association (with strong ties to trade and economic development, as Blier notes). An “Ogboni”, denoting a member but also the association as a whole,” was “the real power in the country”, according to the many references we read in Richard Burton’s works, in Leo Frobenius’ “Voice of Africa” and many, many more. A variant of the word is “Ogbeni” in modern Yoruba, which denotes a gentleman or someone of upright social standing. The older variant of the term and its explicit ties to government and religious observance fits the record quite neatly for me, however. In earlier posts on this topic, I had proposed that I found the simple references to precolonial Nigerian polities as “kingdoms” and “empires” too simplistic to capture the variation of political and economic organization, and I think this confusion of titles, terms and kingdom names typified by the “Ogane/Oghene/Organa” etc debate is a particularly poignant example. In the future, scholars will have to expand their analysis beyond European models of political organization, art, architecture, economic systems etc. to get a clearer picture of the African past. Historical linguistics/glottochronology and archaeology will probably be the most useful tools, but it takes a certain amount of imagination to interprete what the facts and clues allude to.

Note: I am not interested in the modern Nigerian connection with cults and the bloodsucking fairy tales often peddled by pastors etc so I will be ignoring the inevitable references to that in future replies.

There is also the fascinating issue of Ile-Ife’s direct connection to the Niger-Benue confluence region, which as I’ve mentioned in past posts is the key to the commonwealth of cultural history shared by Nigerian groups connected to the area. I believe I’ve posted this before, but in the very first references we have to Ife’s role as the place of creation, it’s foundation is clearly linked to a “great river” and the idea of crossing that river and establishing new settlements along its banks and tributaries.

Reverend Ajayi Crowther says in his “Vocabulary of the Yoruba Language” (1852 edition, which expands on his earlier 1843 work) that “It is said by the Yorubans that fifteen persons were sent from a certain region, and that a sixteenth, whose name was Okambi (an only child), and who was afterwards made King of Yoruba, volunteered to accompany them ... on opening the gate of this unknown region, they observed a large expanse of water...” The passage is long but available to read in full here (in the “Introductory Remarks”: https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_Grammar_of_the_Yoruba_Language/9yBKAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Samuel%20Crowther&pg=PR2&printsec=frontcover&bsq=Samuel%20Crowther

The long and the short of it is that this earliest written description of the founding of Ife describes it as an island of sorts on the shore of a great river. TJ Bowen records a similar tradition in the 1850s and concludes that Ife was likely founded further north and that the current town may not be the original location. What is relatively certain is that the confluence region of Jebba Island, where Ife-style naturalistic bronze and brass works like the Tada figure have been found, was as recently as the 19th-century a Yoruba-speaking border region with Nupe people. In fact, the Gbede/Gbedegi sub-group of the Nupe found in that region today are known to be originally Yoruba-speakers who “became” Nupe through contact with the legendary Tsoede (who is dated to post-15th century wars of expansion and therefore later than the 13th-14th century dates we are discussing for the Ogane/Oghene/Organa (and I would add) Ogboni.

One last point of interest here that we are again indebted to Professor Blier for—she discusses the importance of the pure-copper and Ife-style “Tada figure” found in this area, the nearly life-size sculpture of a seated man that is considered one of the most technically-accomplished artworks of its kind in the world: https://www.chron.com/entertainment/article/MFAH-exhibit-shows-a-side-of-African-art-few-know-1706619.php

This figure is importantly linked to Ife by art historians because of the similarities in proportion, naturalism and material usage (pure copper being also used for the naturalistic Obalufon mask in Ife) but Blier points out that the missing limbs, which have broken off over the years, suggest another important clue—they appear to have been arranged with the left thumb encircled by the right fist, which was and is a disctinctive ritual greeting gesture of none other than ... the Ogboni association.

Much more than I meant to type but hope it was interesting reading! I had more thoughts to add about Ibn-Battuta’s reference to the kingdom of Yufi and why contemporary scholars like Obayemi and Blier believe it to be another early reference to Ife (or as the locals would insist on it being called in eastern Yoruba dialects, “Ufe”) but I know that TAO has capably discussed that in one of her earlier posts so I’ll leave it there.

Good to be back to add what I can while I have some free time. There is also some interesting material on Kwararafa and the Apa polity (unclear if it was organized as a “kingdom”, “empire” etc) and its connection to geomancy (Ifa/Afa/ominigbon etc) but I’ll save that for some future post as well.

I’ve edited to add a few useful links to some material that’s’ available online, although most of the citations are from books that are only available In print unfortunately. I can add more information for those interested.

See scholarship! shocked smiley wink
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by TAO11(f): 4:50pm On Apr 15, 2020
gregyboy:


Samuk

Samuk, gregyboy is calling you to come and cover his lie with your own lie.

grin grin
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by TAO11(f): 4:57pm On Apr 15, 2020
gregyboy:

Ok can we get the evidence....

Yea the link youre going to share must ascertain why they believe ife is as old as 4th century if it's just mere claims you know i will push it aside

Yes, I have provided the detailed reference. If you're too afraid or too incompetent to follow it through by yourself, then you don't deserve to use the internet in the first place.

When sane people are given references they follow through with it.

If you have an atom of integrity in you, then you should be ashamed of yourself, at this time, for lying blatantly that Benin dates earlier than Ife without a jot of evidence, except of course your personal emptiness. grin

When scholars speak, gregyboy you hold your lips tight and roll in dog sh!t.

Or are you just saving face?? ?? grin grin grin cheesy cheesy
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 5:06pm On Apr 15, 2020
TerraCotta:


I know what you mean. It’s been about five years for me as well but Covid-19 is giving everyone more spare leisure time than we know what to do with! That old post where you referenced the Benin wall-polishing technique stood out to me for two major reasons:

A) I like to keep track of descriptions of architecture, engineering and construction methods etc and while I’d taken note of lots of murals, paintings , carved columns and the like, I hadn’t noticed those references in the first-hand literature, and
B) I had seen many more references to the ritual importance of reflective or glittering surfaces (now generally assumed to be mica or quartz-rich soil), which were used in the design of Ife terra cotta sculpture and pottery, potsherd pavements etc.

At any event, in re-reading some material over the years (mostly 19th-century missionary descriptions of western and northern Nigeria but also noted in contemporary descriptions of Asante buildings and I believe Dahomean palace architecture), I kept an eye out for similar material and found the following (by no means exhaustive, as I’m still trying to remember the various other places I’ve noted these):

“Meroke's house, like others in Oshielle, has a high wall next to the street, on each side ; it is built in a square. A gate, carved with the head of an idol, opens into the street; there is a court-yard in the centre, and the rooms are built all round the inte rior of the square ; the sloping roof pro jecting beyond them forms a verandah. This verandah is the reception-place for friends: "the Tortoise," says the Yoruba proverb of an inhospitable man, "builds his house, and makes the verandah behind it;"* it is also, especially in hot weather, the bed-room. Meroke takes up the mat on which she has been lying, and begins to sweep out her house. She has a short brush with which she sets to work. The polished walls and floor, shine, as it is said in Yoruba, "like the rain clouds, beautifully black," and the floor the same...”

From page 11 of “Oshielle, Or, Village Life in the Yoruba Country: From the Journals and Letters of a Catechist There, Describing the Rise of a Christian Church in an African Village” by Mary Ann Barber, 1857

Reverend Samuel Johnson described a similar process in “History of the Yorubas” (page 99): “the houses are without any decorations; the walls are plastered and polished with black and sometimes red earth by the women whose work it generally is. The houses of Kings and Princes are embellished with a sort of wash which is a decoction made from the skin of the locust fruit.”

I can remember reading similar descriptions in Reverend RH Stone’s “In Afric’s Forest and Jungle”, “Travels and Explorations in Yorubaland 1854-1858” by William Clarke (which also contain excellent recording of indigenous landscaping and agriculture alongside architecture and sports etc) along with others like TJ Bowen but I’ll have to look closer at those works to find them. There are alternative descriptions of whitewashed walls, which were accomplished by used lime and shell mixtures and I believe this is still practiced in some traditional shrines etc.

Your example of the similar traditional Japanese practice in that old thread helped me visualize this effect and made it stick out in my mind when I re-read some of these works, as I like to do every few years.

Thanks for the examples and references. I read William Clarke's book years ago and yes it does have some interesting details about architecture in there, among other things. I don't recall any details about architecture that Bowen might have mentioned for some reason, even though I read his book, so if you do eventually find what he stated about architecture or walls specifically do please post it.

It was actually another poster in that thread I started that gave the example of the Japanese practice - I did post quotes that mentioned the polished/shining walls from Benin in the thread but it was another poster that supplied that example of those highly polished shining earthen balls that the Japanese made.
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by samuk: 5:32pm On Apr 15, 2020
geosegun:


Well, I appreciate your summary. The Yorubas generally see Benin as ther younger brother by blood. Hence our grandparents will always say, 'okan naa ni wa' meaning we are the same. Hence, some of the reasons the generality of Yorubas will never fig8or engage the Benins in a duel.
Eko in Lagos state is an example. How can the Father fights the son? Hence the continuous growth of Benin Kingdom and was never violently controlled in some of the western axis.
We know they, especially the Benin rulers house, are our long but not lost brothers. The Oyo empire, despite all her powers never engaged Benin as we see it as a taboo.

But you know what, pride has not allow those of recent generations to accept this. They know it's the truth but pride and inferiority complex will not allow them to accept realities and move on. One of the reasons they destroyed the only legacy the had left in 1898. Stubbornness and arrogance are worst than some diseases.

FACT is Benin Kingdom is an extension of Yoruba civilisation and of course they are our brothers. This has been proven over and over again.

@MelesZenawi; thank you for an independent summary.

I rest my case.

When your late Ooni made this same mistake you just made out of excitement, late Oba Erediawa quickly reminded him of his place.

Yoruba as it's currently constituted is less than 200 years old and Benin that is over 1000 years is Yoruba's junior.

Please provide us the evidence when the word Yoruba was first recorded.

Please don't give me some myths of some mythical tribe.

Ooni will not have the gut to say that your crap before the Oba of Lagos let alone Oba of Benin.
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by TAO11(f): 6:00pm On Apr 15, 2020
samuk:


When your late Ooni made this same mistake you just made out of excitement, late Oba Erediawa quickly reminded him of his place.

Yoruba as it's currently constituted is less than 200 years old and Benin that is over 1000 years is Yoruba's junior.

Please provide us the evidence when the word Yoruba was first recorded.

Please don't give me some myths of some mythical tribe.

Ooni will not have the gut to say that your crap before the Oba of Lagos let alone Oba of Benin.

You all keep refuting your own latest revisions on our behalf! grin

Erediauwa "corrected" actually got timid and defensive, and then alluded to the fictional "Izoduwa" episode. grin grin

So, your bringing up Erediauwa's response is the poorest face-saving attempt because it demolishes your latest unrelenting dvmb revision of "no connection".

It also establishes the then Ooni's position as correct as historians have actually regarded the "Izoduwa" episode as an apocryphal, pseudohistorical, deliberately unauthentic, over-ambitious joke. grin grin

Ife (as comprising many settlements) is dated to at least the 4th century BC from the report of the archaeological survey of Ife by Paul Ozanne (1969).

I ask again, what archaeological dating result for settlements do you have from Benin kingdom ?? ?? Remember that your personal guess will not be accepted. grin

The word "Benin" dates to c1480 (only about 500 years old); hence the people and the settlement are only about 500 years old ?? ?? ?? ?? shocked grin

That's another dvmb boomeranging angle from you boy, you should do better than that. cheesy

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Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 7:31pm On Apr 15, 2020
TerraCotta:


My views on this issue haven’t changed dramatically over the years and I’ve expressed them in the many fruitful discussions we’ve had about the issue in past years. I’m at home and close enough to my library to be able to reference both older and more recent scholarship that can help illuminate this issue of the identity of the Ogane/Oghene, and the idea of a common origin of the current Ife-Benin monarchic traditions and their connection to the area of central Nigeria where the Niger and Benue rivers meet.

While Ryder should get some credit for his hypothesis on this issue, the idea that the Niger-Benue confluence area is key to southern Nigerian cultural history has been widely-accepted since at least the 1970s, more due to the work of historical linguistics isolating that area as the source of Kwa-languages, i.e. “The implications of modern linguistic research both fit in with and supplement those of archaeological research. They suggest that Yoruba, Edo, Igala, Idoma, Igbo, Nupe, Emirates and Gabri form a cluster of languages within the larger Kwa group, centered roughly on the area of the Niger-Benue Confluence,” (Ade Obayemi in “The Yoruba and Edo-speaking peoples and their neighbors before 1600”, History of West Africa, Vol. 1, Longman Publishers, 1971).

First of all, great post! My situation is precisely the opposite - I'm not near many of the books I have at all, nor do I have access to some of the things I would like to cite (as I alluded to above with regard to Meek's book) but I'll try to make good with the few I have with me if we have another very lengthy discussion as we've had previously. Also, I'll be responding in parts just because I have some other things to get done even in this quarantine/shelter-in-place situation and I can't spare as much time to make super lengthy posts just right now.

Yes I am aware of this idea of the Niger-Benue confluence as some kind of origin or dispersal point for the larger linguistic group that several of the southern and Middle Belt groups in Nigeria belong to and I have read that article by Obayemi in the past. Ryder's focus in the article is more related to the issue of this thread so I didn't want to get into that broader issue of what the origin point of the so called "Kwa" group is right here (as that seems to be another topic in and of itself).

What is important to note for this discussion is that neither Pacheco Pierrera or Joao de Avieros (de Barros in some transcriptions) introduced the concept of the Ogane/Houganee as a pre-eminent governmental or religious power in our area. That idea dates back to the 1375 map of global kingdoms called the Atlas, made by Europe’s leading cartographer of that period, Abraham Cresques: https://www.earthlymission.com/catalan-atlas-medieval-world-map/.

That 1375 map identifies a mysterious figure called the Rey de Organa (i.e. “King of Organa”), which appears to reference the Ogane/Oghene title under discussion. The Rey de Organa is portrayed as leading the most important trade point/monarchic area east of Mansa Musa’s Mali, and this is notable because Mansa Musa’s unimaginable wealth from gold mining had recently been unveiled to the world in spectacular fashion following his pilgrimage to Mecca, where his entourage caused a global devolution in gold prices with the amount of gold they spent during the trip.

It’s also good to note that the Catalan Atlas was so accurate because its maker (Cresques) was a member of a Jewish trading family in Spain with extensive contacts throughout northern (and presumably western) Africa, and as these families traded in the exotic luxury goods produced in these areas (likely including glass jewelry but almost certainly ivory and rare birds and feathers, which is an important point as we shall see later), they had strong motivations to understand the politics and polities in this region.

At any rate, the Catalan Atlas became a central inspiration for the Portuguese court’s sponsorship of exploration into West Africa and establishes this Organa (Ogane/Oghene) as a leading political/religious figure about 100 years before Joao de Aveiros refers to the leader with a similar title who is responsible for consecrating the leader of Benin’s royal symbols etc. This is detailed further on page 6 of Suzanne Preston Blier’s “Art and Risk in Ancient Yoruba: Ife History, Power and Identity c. 1300,” Cambridge University Press, 2015.

I did read professor Blier's book on ancient art in Ife years ago so yes, I am aware of this mention of the map from her book. The issue of the depiction of the "king of Organa" and similarly named places/rulers on 14th, 15th and 16th century European maps was actually brought up by Thornton, in his 1988 article on the Ife-Benin relationship, so I was aware of it even earlier (and Blier is well aware of Thornton's article, which she cites at one point in that book). He actually uses that map and others to make his own argument about who he thinks the ruler really is and of course his identification is quite different. (I still disagree with his ultimate conclusion, so my position about the validity of his identification has not changed - I still think that identification is mistaken, just as I did in that other thread where we had a lengthy discussion although some of my reasons have changed slightly.)

So the possible connection between the Ogane/Hooguanee of the Portuguese reports, and the Organa king/kingdom on the late medieval European maps has been more widely known at least since Thornton's article was published, although other scholars (Richmond Palmer may have been one of them, if I recall correctly) had suggested this connection even earlier, prior to Thornton's article. I am also familiar with the Catalan Atlas and what it depicts (I even discussed that map on a thread on that other forum - that one where you made an account but didn't post smiley. By the way, were you too annoyed by some of the ignorance, bias, etc. that exists on there and considered it a waste of time to even bother engaging with it, or was it just too boring and nothing on there caught your interest? I'm still somewhat surprised that you didn't make a single post.)

I would however point out that Cresques' knowledge here must be described as shaky or inadequate if he really did mean to refer to what we might presume that he meant to refer to with that king of Organa figure and kingdom on the map. The Catalan Atlas actually describes the king of Organa in this manner: "a Saracen who waged constant war against the Saracens of the coast and with the other Arabs". The coast he is referring to here seems to be the North African coast. In fact, the way the map is (and where the "Organa" king is positioned) there couldn't be any other coast that he is referring to.

Blier does state in her book that the "Rey de Organa" is "repositioned toward the central Sahara" on the Catalan Atlas (instead of being further south where we would presume he should be if the figure is meant to depict a ruler closer to the part of west Africa we are discussing). It seems that in fact the positioning was not a "repositioning" and the real reason for the position was that Cresques did not really see the "Organa" kingdom as being what we are referring to in this discussion (so I am not sure that he had a real understanding of the polities of the region we are talking about if the Rey de Organa is meant to depict a west African ruler from somewhere in or near Nigeria), hence Cresques' map presenting the idea that the king of Organa was an Arab that fought other Arabs, and hence the ruler's depiction on the map as an Arab/Saracen.

Thornton did of course argue (on p. 356 of his 1988 article) that the positioning of Organa on the "best" maps from the Catalan school of cartographers should be interpreted as implying that the Rey de Organa was really south of the desert and closer to the Niger river (the "Nile" on that part of the map). But he also made an interesting comment, or admission, in note 20 (on pp. 360-361) at the end of the article. He mentioned in that note that the historian Tadeusz Lewicki, in his article "Le Royaume d'Organa des cartes européennes du XIV e au XVIe siècle" (1976) actually "summarizes the existing arguments and provides a strong argument for identifying Organa with the oasis state of Ouargla".

Ouargla is in the Sahara, and given the cultural background that Ouargla would have had at the time the map was made it would be quite understandable why the king of Organa would be depicted and described as a Saracen, if Cresques was indeed referring to Ouargla. Considering that the sounds "l" and "n" often end up being interchanged in words in various languages (this is a very common linguistic phenomenon; I don't recall the word for it), the name Ouargla is actually close to Organa even in sound and appearance.

There's also something else notable about Ouargla besides the fact that the cultural background of a medieval sultan of Ouargla would be a better fit for the depiction and description of the king of Organa given in the Catalan Atlas. It was apparently one of the oldest towns in the Sahara (or at least it is described as such in multiple sources) and it was also a major player in the trans-Saharan trade:

"By 911, the Shi'ite Fatimids ovethrew the kingdom of Tahert as well as established their control over Sijilmasa [southern Morocco] and Ouargla or Wargla. It was the Fatimids who founded the city of Mahdiya as their capital around 915. It was however in 947 under the ruler Fatimid al-Mansur that they established Mansuria, slightly southwest of Kairouan, as a new capital to replace Mahdiya. Associated with these changes, Ouargla emerged as the dominant northern terminus of the major gold-bearing trans-Saharan route that led from Gao. " - Stefan Goodwin, Africa's Legacies Of Urbanization: Unfolding Saga of a Continent, p. 88

This major role in international trade would probably make this city a noteworthy place for a map-maper and that is probably one reason why the the ruler (sultan) of Ouargla might be depicted on a later medieval map.

You also mentioned Cresques' background as part of a Jewish trading family. Interestingly, Ouargla did actually have a significant population of Jews in the Middle Ages:

"M'zab Jewry are apparently the descendants of Jews from Tahert, an ancient metropolis destroyed in 902 C.E., but also from Sedrata and Ouargla in the important region of Ifriqiyya – which in ancient and medieval times contained the territories of present-day Libya and Tunisia. Ouargla was a center of Karaite Jews. Until 1300 the Jewish community of the M'zab was reinforced demographically by Jews from the island of *Djerba (southern Tunisia) and Jebel Nafusa (the region of Tripolitania in modern Libya). Overwhelmingly residing in Ghardaia, the Jews were mainly employed as goldsmiths as well as being suppliers of ostrich feathers whose exports to Europe were monopolized by their coreligionists in parts of the Mediterranean."

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/m-x0027-zab

I am familiar with the background of the Portuguese search for "Prester John" (incidentally "Prester John" is actually indicated in the Catalan Atlas, on panel IV), however I think that this depiction of the "Rey de Organa" on the Catalan Atlas is not likely to have been a motivating factor in their search for Prester John in west Africa. Considering that Cresques depicts him as war waging "Saracen" and taking into account the attitudes that probably existed in 15th century Christian Iberia with respect to "Moors", "Saracens", etc. that seems unlikely. Thornton suggests, more plausibly, on p. 356 of his 1988 article, that the maps they used which led them to later identify "Organa" with Prester John were certain later maps, rather than the Catalan Atlas.

I'll try to respond to rest of your post as I get time.


Edit: Upon re-reading your last paragraph above, I realized you were actually alluding to the fact that the Portuguese were later to explore the west coast of Africa in search of the source of the gold that was flowing in the trans-Saharan trade (in addition to seeking Prester John in Africa as a Christian ally against the Muslims; they were carrying out the two objectives simultaneously). So I think I did misinterpret that last paragraph of yours in my initial response and actually I agree that the Catalan Atlas, with its depiction and description of Mansa Musa and his abundant gold and wealth, would have been an impetus for their desire to explore west Africa in the 15th century. Since that is what you seem to be alluding to (their search for the source of the gold in west Africa that was going north in the trans-Saharan trade) then there's no disagreement that the map would have been a major inspiration for them.
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by samuk: 8:04pm On Apr 15, 2020
SilverSniper:


First of all, great post! My situation is precisely the opposite - I'm not near many of the books I have at all, nor do I have access to some of the things I would like to cite (as I alluded to above with regard to Meek's book) but I'll try to make good with the few I have with me if we have another very lengthy discussion as we've had previously. Also, I'll be responding in parts just because I have some other things to get done even in this quarantine/shelter-in-place situation and I can't spare as much time to make super lengthy posts just right now.

Yes I am aware of this idea of the Niger-Benue confluence as some kind of origin or dispersal point for the larger linguistic group that several of the southern and Middle Belt groups in Nigeria belong to and I have read that article by Obayemi in the past. Ryder's focus in the article is more related to the issue of this thread so I didn't want to get into that broader issue of what the origin point of the so called "Kwa" group is right here (as that seems to be another topic in and of itself).



I did read professor Blier's book on ancient art in Ife years ago so yes, I am aware of this mention of the map from her book. The issue of the depiction of the "king of Organa" and similarly named places/rulers on 14th, 15th and 16th century European maps was actually brought up by Thornton, in his 1988 article on the Ife-Benin relationship, so I was aware of it even earlier (and Blier is well aware of Thornton's article, which she cites at one point in that book). He actually uses that map and others to make his own argument about who he thinks the ruler really is and of course his identification is quite different. (I still disagree with his ultimate conclusion, so my position about the validity of his identification has not changed - I still think that identification is mistaken, just as I did in that other thread where we had a lengthy discussion although some of my reasons have changed slightly.)

So the possible connection between the Ogane/Hooguanee of the Portuguese reports, and the Organa king/kingdom on the late medieval European maps has been more widely known at least since Thornton's article was published, although other scholars (Richmond Palmer may have been one of them, if I recall correctly) had suggested this connection even earlier, prior to Thornton's article. I am also familiar with the Catalan Atlas and what it depicts (I even discussed that map on a thread on that other forum - that one where you made an account but didn't post smiley. By the way, were you too annoyed by some of the ignorance, bias, etc. that exists on there and considered it a waste of time to even bother engaging with it, or was it just too boring and nothing on there caught your interest? I'm still somewhat surprised that you didn't make a single post.)

I would however point out that Cresques' knowledge here must be described as shaky or inadequate if he really did mean to refer to what we might presume that he meant to refer to with that king of Organa figure and kingdom on the map. The Catalan Atlas actually describes the king of Organa in this manner: "a Saracen who waged constant war against the Saracens of the coast and with the other Arabs". The coast he is referring to here seems to be the North African coast. In fact, the way the map is (and where the "Organa" king is positioned) there couldn't be any other coast that he is referring to.

Blier does state in her book that the "Rey de Organa" is "repositioned toward the central Sahara" on the Catalan Atlas (instead of being further south where we would presume he should be if the figure is meant to depict a ruler closer to the part of west Africa we are discussing). It seems that in fact the positioning was not a "repositioning" and the real reason for the position was that Cresques did not really see the "Organa" kingdom as being what we are referring to in this discussion (so I am not sure that he had a real understanding of the polities of the region we are talking about if the Rey de Organa is meant to depict a west African ruler from somewhere in or near Nigeria), hence Cresques' map presenting the idea that the king of Organa was an Arab that fought other Arabs, and hence the ruler's depiction on the map as an Arab/Saracen.

Thornton did of course argue (on p. 356 of his 1988 article) that the positioning of Organa on the "best" maps from the Catalan school of cartographers should be interpreted as implying that the Rey de Organa was really south of the desert and closer to the Niger river (the "Nile" on that part of the map). But he also made an interesting comment, or admission, in note 20 (on pp. 360-361) at the end of the article. He mentioned in that note that the historian Tadeusz Lewicki, in his article "Le Royaume d'Organa des cartes européennes du XIV e au XVIe siècle" (1976) actually "summarizes the existing arguments and provides a strong argument for identifying Organa with the oasis state of Ouargla".

Ouargla is in the Sahara, and given the cultural background that Ouargla would have had at the time the map was made it would be quite understandable why the king of Organa would be depicted and described as a Saracen, if Cresques was indeed referring to Ouargla. Considering that the sounds "l" and "n" often end up being interchanged in words in various languages (this is a very common linguistic phenomenon; I don't recall the word for it), the name Ouargla is actually close to Organa even in sound and appearance.

There's also something else notable about Ouargla besides the fact that the cultural background of a medieval sultan of Ouargla would be a better fit for the depiction and description of the king of Organa given in the Catalan Atlas. It was apparently one of the oldest towns in the Sahara (or at least it is described as such in multiple sources) and it was also a major player in the trans-Saharan trade:

"By 911, the Shi'ite Fatimids ovethrew the kingdom of Tahert as well as established their control over Sijilmasa [southern Morocco] and Ouargla or Wargla. It was the Fatimids who founded the city of Mahdiya as their capital around 915. It was however in 947 under the ruler Fatimid al-Mansur that they established Mansuria, slightly southwest of Kairouan, as a new capital to replace Mahdiya. Associated with these changes, Ouargla emerged as the dominant northern terminus of the major gold-bearing trans-Saharan route that led from Gao. " - Stefan Goodwin, Africa's Legacies Of Urbanization: Unfolding Saga of a Continent, p. 88

This major role in international trade would probably make this city a noteworthy place for a map-maper and that is probably one reason why the the ruler (sultan) of Ouargla might be depicted on a later medieval map.

You also mentioned Cresques' background as part of a Jewish trading family. Interestingly, Ouargla did actually have a significant population of Jews in the Middle Ages:

"M'zab Jewry are apparently the descendants of Jews from Tahert, an ancient metropolis destroyed in 902 C.E., but also from Sedrata and Ouargla in the important region of Ifriqiyya – which in ancient and medieval times contained the territories of present-day Libya and Tunisia. Ouargla was a center of Karaite Jews. Until 1300 the Jewish community of the M'zab was reinforced demographically by Jews from the island of *Djerba (southern Tunisia) and Jebel Nafusa (the region of Tripolitania in modern Libya). Overwhelmingly residing in Ghardaia, the Jews were mainly employed as goldsmiths as well as being suppliers of ostrich feathers whose exports to Europe were monopolized by their coreligionists in parts of the Mediterranean."

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/m-x0027-zab

I am familiar with the background of the Portuguese search for "Prester John" (incidentally "Prester John" is actually indicated in the Catalan Atlas, on panel IV), however I think that this depiction of the "Rey de Organa" on the Catalan Atlas is not likely to have been a motivating factor in their search for Prester John in west Africa. Considering that Cresques depicts him as war waging "Saracen" and taking into account the attitudes that probably existed in 15th century Christian Iberia with respect to "Moors", "Saracens", etc. that seems unlikely. Thornton suggests, more plausibly, on p. 356 of his 1988 article, that the maps they used which led them to later identify "Organa" with Prester John were certain later maps, rather than the Catalan Atlas.

I'll try to respond to rest of your post as I get time.


Edit: Upon re-reading your last paragraph above, I realized you were actually alluding to the fact that the Portuguese were later to explore the west coast of Africa in search of the source of the gold that was flowing in the trans-Saharan trade (in addition to seeking Prester John in Africa as a Christian ally against the Muslims; they were carrying out the two objectives simultaneously). So I think I did misinterpret that last paragraph of yours in my initial response and actually I agree that the Catalan Atlas, with its depiction and description of Mansa Musa and his abundant gold and wealth, would have been an impetus for their desire to explore west Africa in the 15th century. Since that is what you seem to be alluding to (their search for the source of the gold in west Africa that was going north in the trans-Saharan trade) then there's no disagreement that the map would have been a major inspiration for them.

All these will burst TAO11 brain. TAO11 no distractions, your elders are now talking, you have had your time, you can now go out and play with the kids and allow serious minded people to learn. I know you will come out now and turn everything upside down with your bigotry.

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