I'm not sure I agree. First of all,  the terms are not "Lagos State must pay us $X over the next 30 years, regardless of how much less than that we take in from tolls." It is instead, "if Lagos State defaults on the terms of our agreement, then they must pay us $X."

If we agree on this, then it is not quite a riskless investment, is it? It is just to protect themselves and ensure a penalty of their partner (Lagos State) violates the agreement.
Or am I misunderstanding?

In my opinion it does. Doesn't adding a 3rd lane have a similar effect? And surfacing and maintaining the road? Why must an above-ground toll be the only way to create value, when adding additional lanes does the same thing?

So what if it turns out that the improvements they made will have the same overall effect in improving traffic as adding say an above-ground toll? Then will you still have this same impression?

I dunno, I'm dissatisfied with your argument to some extent, because it means that if a road has to be improved and expanded, and the state gov't doesn't have the funds to do it but they can find a private partner who is interested, then that private partner has very limited means to recover their investment. Fine, so maybe LCC should have built an above-ground toll. But what if that is an inferior overall solution to simply improving the existing road?

Sorta see what I'm saying?

PS: Sorry for taking so long to respond. . . 

netotse:

@babapupa
that's a thoughtless thing to say(or even think). you sef know that if BRF were rumoured to have said that in public his chances of winning a fair election will drop by at least 20%.

Mingler:

Election is is coming, ACN recently lost an house of Assembly election in Ikorodu part of lagos to the PDP just few days back, it is feared that if the toll gate is imposed,the people of Lekki-Epe-Etiosa axis may give protest votes to PDP in this year's Election and this will be inimical to ACN sice the people of that axis are part of the most important indigeneous settlements in Lagos, I can bet it with you, It is coming, However, I think the project is a good idea but the price they are charging is rather much, i think 50 naira is ok, cos a lot of vehicles ply that route, enough to make the investor quickly recoop its investment.
Visit www.professionalsinnigeria.com to search and meet professionals from all over Ngeria.

babapupa:

Are you people even aware that government is equipped with the right and sole authority to sell that or any public road to any private entity without providing all the stuff you people are crying about, talk less tolling?


This is obviously a concerned government. I do appreciate the fact that they are listening to the folks in the area and  trying to settle the issue.  I know shared sacrifice is new to many, but the government can't keep dancing to your selfish needs and complaints.

The government does not have enough money to satisfy the state's infrastructural needs and if what you desire is up to date infrastructure, we all pay to pay for it some way, some how.

jacobs123:

I must commend the civility of the discussants on this thread so far but one has to wonder how babapupa reasons.

You keep talking of foreign investors, the LASG has put N5 bn in this project and you keep telling us they are tolling because they have no money. I have not seen any evidence that more than N5 bn has been spent on this project yet yet money has been collected from banks.  How come the Bordillon guys don't have to pay for their road, how about the guys on Western avenue, how about the Okota link bridge?

I can't even begin to state how I feel that someone will type what you have up there in a Democracy but I guess that's the way people like you and TINUBU reason and he's taking over the whole state for himself afterall he's the GODFATHER but sorry to let you know, we are not his Godsons!!!

We are demanding a full investigation of the whole project 'cos it's just too shady.

We can't be threatened by Fashola, we've not benefitted from him and LAgos state is worse off as a result of lack of will to stand up to his evil Godfather. the N50 bn we are talking here for resurfacing of 23Km road is the budget of states like OSUN, ABIA, JIGAWA, ZAMFARA, KWARA yet they still construct a few new roads and the Governors and commissioners will steal money also.

I'm not sure you understand what N50 bn is but I guess you are just one of the ACN propaganda machines. This time you guys are sure gonna lose!!!

Eko O ni Baje!!!

Bobajo:

I can say more, but i just tire for the matter, Somehow, we always manage to ruin good concepts after applying it the Nigerian way. My good friend Efe has told me not to complain so much again. He says afterall, Nigeria is Turn by Turn PLC, and i should await my turn. Very sad theory. Very true theory.

jacobs123:

I must commend the civility of the discussants on this thread so far but one has to wonder how babapupa reasons.

You keep talking of foreign investors, the LASG has put N5 bn in this project and you keep telling us they are tolling because they have no money. I have not seen any evidence that more than N5 bn has been spent on this project yet yet money has been collected from banks.  How come the Bordillon guys don't have to pay for their road, how about the guys on Western avenue, how about the Okota link bridge?

I can't even begin to state how I feel that someone will type what you have up there in a Democracy but I guess that's the way people like you and TINUBU reason and he's taking over the whole state for himself afterall he's the GODFATHER but sorry to let you know, we are not his Godsons!!!

We are demanding a full investigation of the whole project 'cos it's just too shady.

We can't be threatened by Fashola, we've not benefitted from him and LAgos state is worse off as a result of lack of will to stand up to his evil Godfather. the N50 bn we are talking here for resurfacing of 23Km road is the budget of states like OSUN, ABIA, JIGAWA, ZAMFARA, KWARA yet they still construct a few new roads and the Governors and commissioners will steal money also.

I'm not sure you understand what N50 bn is but I guess you are just one of the ACN propaganda machines. This time you guys are sure gonna lose!!!

Eko O ni Baje!!!

Detroit converts neighborhoods into farmland

Detroit, the very symbol of American industrial might for most of the 20th century, is drawing up a radical renewal plan that calls for turning large swaths of this now-blighted, rusted-out city back into the fields and farmland that existed before the automobile.

Operating on a scale never before attempted in this country, the city would demolish houses in some of the most desolate sections of Detroit and move residents into stronger neighborhoods. Roughly a quarter of the 139-square-mile city could go from urban to semi-rural.

Near downtown, fruit trees and vegetable farms would replace neighborhoods that are an eerie landscape of empty buildings and vacant lots. Suburban commuters heading into the city center might pass through what looks like the countryside to get there. Surviving neighborhoods in the birthplace of the auto industry would become pockets in expanses of green.

Detroit officials first raised the idea in the 1990s, when blight was spreading. Now, with the recession plunging the city deeper into ruin, a decision on how to move forward is approaching. Mayor Dave Bing, who took office last year, is expected to unveil some details in his state-of-the-city address this month.

Several other declining industrial cities, such as Youngstown, Ohio, have also accepted downsizing. Since 2005, Youngstown has been tearing down a few hundred houses a year. But Detroit's plans dwarf that effort. The approximately 40 square miles of vacant property in Detroit is larger than the entire city of Youngstown.

Faced with a $300 million budget deficit and a dwindling tax base, Mr. Bing says the city can't continue to pay for police patrols, fire protection and other services for all areas.




http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/mar/09/detroit-looks-at-downsizing-to-save-city/

The current plan would demolish about 10,000 houses and empty buildings in three years and pump new investment into stronger neighborhoods. In the neighborhoods that would be cleared, the city would offer to relocate residents or buy them out. The city could use tax foreclosure to claim abandoned property and invoke eminent domain for those who refuse to leave, much as cities now do for freeway projects.

At the outset of the current spate of development in the early 90's, the corridor was regarded with great optimism by investors, real estate analysts and the various stakeholders.
This accounted for the flurry of investments that were quickly attracted to the axis during this period. Overnight, many residential housing estates sprang up like mushrooms on the landscape.

There was massive movement of people to Lekki from the Mainland Lagos and also from Victoria, Ikoyi and Lagos Island (Central Lagos) as well as from abroad.



http://allafrica.com/stories/200904010232.html

Lekki also offered hope as a destination point for those who had become perennial victims of the area boys' menace that had gripped Central Lagos. Those who came from Ikoyi had laments of the extremely high and unaffordable property rents and prices, in addition to the increasing wave of commercialisation of some districts particularly the South West Ikoyi.

The territory had been held down by a web of negative notions. It was as if the government programmes were mapped out to dispel the fears in the real estate circle that Lekki would "cave in". Many contended that the territory was doomed while some likened it to a cul-de-sac. The worst was expected for the residents of a fully occupied Lekki.

Undocumented statistics were reeled out to back up [size=14pt]the claim that only a fraction of the expansive territory had been occupied and yet the traffic situation was already so bad.[/size]




Fueling these fears was the state of grossly inadequate infrastructure in Lekki. [size=14pt]The Lekki-Epe Expressway was the only point of entry in and out of the territory, accounting for nerve-breaking traffic bottlenecks that sometimes last for several hours.[/size]


Matters were made worse during the rainy season when the expressway becomes flooded and movement of traffic is seriously impeded.


Many decried the situation where[size=14pt] housing development was of geometric (exponential) progression, but infrastructural development stagnant[/size]. It did not make sense at all.

 

and most people are forgetting that its 120/150 naira per toll per journey. Who makes one trip, won't you return? at 150 naira per toll per journey you're looking at 900 naira a day. And Lekki isn't made up of Bigmen. What of staff, what of the people who have to commute in. Even if I stole money why should I spend almost a grand a day for an uncompleted road where I can spend up to 3 hours just getting into V/I?

Under the new system, cars and commercial buses will pay N120 and N80 respectively, while commercial motorcycles (also known as ‘Okada’) will part with N50 as toll to ply the road.


all motorcycles passing through the Toll Plaza would also pay a standard toll tariff of N50 while the commercial minibuses popularly called ‘Danfo’ would pay N80.

He added that saloon cars and tricycles would pay N120, while Sports Utility Vehicles (SUVs), minibuses and pickup vans would pay N150. Light trucks and 2-axle buses, including and heavy trucks with two or more heavy axles would be paying N250 and N350 respectively for just one trip in each case.

He however disclosed that road users have a choice of paying the standard tariff, in which they have to make their payments by cash or the electronic system known as ePayment.

According to him, it is more profitable to embrace the ePayment which has two variants - eTag and SwiftPass. Each of these variants, he said, offers price reduction benefits. While SwiftPass offers five percent off the standard tolls, eTag comes with 10 percent.

He continued: “Road users who subscribe to SwiftPass with motorcycles pay N48, while those with eTag pay N45. Those who use cars and tricycles and have subscribed to SwiftPass will pay N114, even as those with eTag will pay 108. Road users with SUVs or pick-up-trucks and are on SwiftPass will pay N143, just as those with eTag will pay N135. Danfo drivers on SwiftPass will pay N76 while those on eTag will pay N72.

“Light truck drivers on SwiftPass will pay N238, while those on eTag will pay N226, and heavy trucks drivers with SwiftPass will pay N333, even as those with eTag will pay N315.” To accommodate the interest of low-income earners and ensure that commercial bus drivers do not increase fares on the route, the managing director informed that a special ‘Public Transpart Discount’ has been packaged for this class of vehicles.

“This discount applies only to commercial ‘danfo’ mini-buses. They will enjoy a 47 percent reduction off the standard toll for vehicles in their class only if their vehicles are registered to pay for their tolls using eTag,” he said. Noting that tolling is a fundamental aspect of Toll Road Concession, Oforriokuma highlighted some of the benefits motorists stand to enjoy for making use of the road: “Based on market and other research conducted in and around the Eti-Osa Lekki-Epe axis, LCC forecasts that road users should enjoy estimated savings of N25 or more per kilometer each time they use the Toll Road.”

@tpia- is detroit a dead city or not? if the city was thriving and full of people not on some kind of welfare thanks to the fall of the auto industry, would they be doing that? what does that have to do with lagos.

tpia1:

they will applaud when they hear things like this overseas, but shout foul if govt tries anything like it in nigeria:

Stealthy:

I tire for folks like tpia & babapupa. U guys keep bringing up USA. But in reality how many roads within cities are tolled in USA? I was in LA recently. I did not drive on a single tolled road. I know some intercity roads are tolled abroad. But that's like putting tolls on Lagos-Ibadan - no one would complain about that.

It is unfair to put tolls on a road that people use on their daily commute to work/school/shop. Worse still that it's 3 toll gates on such a short stretch (compare to 3 tolls previously on the ~120km Lagos-Ibadan expressway). Even worse still, the road construction has significantly reduced traffic on that road and only about 25% of the work is complete. This can only happen in Naija!

tpia1:

google is your friend.

http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2010/04/toll_exemption_for_grand_isle.html

babapupa:

Saying you have not benefited from Fashola betrayed you and your comments. It strips you of whatever credibility. You don't have to remain in Lagos just to deal with ACN or Fashola, move to Ogun or Oyo state and go feel at home with your PDP folks, they'll treat you nice.  

Unfortunately for you, I don't operate on emotions and ignorance like many of you.


#1. Only an ignorant and non Lagosian compares and sites other state's budget to make a point per Lagos state and it's finances.

The states you mention are glorified towns and  villages called states

Lagos state's population is 18 million and the states you mentioned have less than half of Lagos state's population.

The societal and  infrastructural demand in Lagos state outweighs the states you mentioned combined x 10.

The states you mention are not welcoming thousands of Nigerians from every corner of Nigeria every single day and stretching the state's resources and infrastructure to the bones.

Lastly, stop feeling so important about Lagos state's money or budget, the state is extremely poor @ 2 billion dollars/18 million people and crumbling with non existing infrastructure.

#2. Talking about democracy, democracy also empowers the government to make decisions on behalf of the people to better the state and the people.

Many states in the United states/The main fountain of the same democracy you're touting are not only tolling roads with or without alternatives, they are directly selling public properties like roads, bridges, water works, parking meters and other state services to generate money for whatever.

One clown cited Chicago as a good and well governed city just to trash Lagos state and it's tolling policies, well, chicago is not only tolling, they are  leasing and selling public properties to private entities to generate money to take care of deficits and shortfalls, not even on other capital projects.

Fire Sale Chicago: After Selling Roads, Parking Meters, Mayor Mulls Leasing Water System

http://www.puppetgov.com/2009/10/26/firesale-chicago-after-selling-roads-parking-meters-mayor-mulls-leasing-water-system/


Chicago Scores $1.16B With Meter Lease Deal - Bond Buyer Article

http://www.bondbuyer.com/issues/117_230/-297115-1.html


Foreign Investors Lease US Toll Roads


http://lighthousepatriotjournal./2006/07/15/foreign-investors-lease-us-toll-roads/

Chicago is used as an example: “Last year, the city sold a 99-year lease on the eight-mile Chicago Skyway for $1.83 billion. The buyer was the same consortium that leased the Indiana Toll Road – Macquarie Infrastructure Group of Sydney, Australia, and Cinta Conseioners de Infreastructuras de Transporte of Madrid, Spain. Chicago used the money to pay off debt and fund road projects. Skyway tolls rose 50 cents to $2.50; by 2017, they will reach $5.”

And in South Africa, nearly all the government roads are tolled and many don't even have alternate routes.

You people really need to get off the emotions and start smelling the coffee.




 

netotse:

you failed to answer an important question he asked. . .why does the road cost more to build in lagos? all the reasons you pasted above can be seen as reasons why it should NOT cost more than it would cost to build same road in said rural areas.

Stealthy:

I tire for folks like tpia & babapupa. U guys keep bringing up USA. But in reality how many roads within cities are tolled in USA? I was in LA recently. I did not drive on a single tolled road. I know some intercity roads are tolled abroad. But that's like putting tolls on Lagos-Ibadan - no one would complain about that.

It is unfair to put tolls on a road that people use on their daily commute to work/school/shop. Worse still that it's 3 toll gates on such a short stretch (compare to 3 tolls previously on the ~120km Lagos-Ibadan expressway). Even worse still, the road construction has significantly increased traffic on that road and only about 25% of the work is complete. This can only happen in Naija!

babapupa:


I'm not sure what your problem is, but I'm thinking lack of ability to read and understand or Dyslexia, either way, I can not help you.