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The Name Benin Was Not Gotten From Ife But Itsekiri - Culture (7) - Nairaland

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Re: The Name Benin Was Not Gotten From Ife But Itsekiri by TerraCotta(m): 5:31pm On Apr 26, 2020
Hi TAO—yes, I’m assuming that’s what Bondarenko’s references to the pre-obaship period is meant to suggest (although I’m not sure how familiar he is with these languages).

Also wanted to point out that I don’t endorse the glorification of ‘kingdoms’ and the like, as some northeastern Yoruba (Okun/Kabba areas for example) basically had these smaller polities (“dukedoms”?) as well despite many of them using the “Oba” and “Olu-“ or “Ele-“ style title systems (Obaro and Obadofin in Kabba, for example).

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Re: The Name Benin Was Not Gotten From Ife But Itsekiri by TAO11(f): 5:51pm On Apr 26, 2020
TerraCotta:
Hi TAO—yes, I’m assuming that’s what Bondarenko’s references to the pre-obaship period is meant to suggest (although I’m not sure how familiar he is with these languages).

Also wanted to point out that I don’t endorse the glorification of ‘kingdoms’ and the like, as some northeastern Yoruba (Okun/Kabba areas for example) basically had these smaller polities (“dukedoms”?) as well despite many of them using the “Oba” and “Olu-“ or “Ele-“ style title systems (Obaro and Obadofin in Kabba, for example).

Got you!

But I think the link Bondarenko sees between a society's socio-political complexity (on one hand), and what I would call the Oba-dom (on another hand) is particularly in reference to societies outside of Yorubaland.

It is very understandable why some Yoruba speaking peoples (even with a relatively less complex socio-political setting) --- such as those you mentioned --- would have used the term "Oba", "Olu", "Ele".

For the Yoruba peoples, the supreme ruler rises beyond the "Baale"/"Oloye" level as soon as he can establish his legitimacy with a direct link to Ife/Oodua (or some of his "sons" ) --- regardless of whether the society is not as complex as Ife, Oyo, etc.

Also, for the Yorubas, the words "Oba", "Olu", etc. is simply a natural part of their language. So, the most supreme ruler amongst some clans in a region naturally becomes an "Oba" --- since it is generally agreed that "Oba lo ba lori oun gbo-gbo" --- regardless of whether the society is not as complex as Ife, Oyo, etc.

But the story naturally becomes different amongst a group of people who are not originally Yoruboid.

I believe this corroborates and expatiates on his postition.

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Re: The Name Benin Was Not Gotten From Ife But Itsekiri by TerraCotta(m): 10:34pm On Apr 26, 2020
TAO11:


But I think the link Bondarenko sees between a society's socio-political complexity (on one hand), and what I would call the Oba-dom (on another hand) is particularly in reference to societies outside of Yorubaland.

I see what you mean. I wouldn’t credit this idea to Bondarenko (or me, obviously) though—it’s a central idea of Professor Obayemi’s mini-state and mega-state taxonomy mentioned a while ago. It’s explained in his essay “The Yoruba and Edo-Speaking Peoples and Their Neighbors before 1600 a.d.,” in History of West Africa, vol. 1 (second edition) from 1971. It’s not easy to find a copy unfortunately but his essay “Ancient Ife: Antother Cultural-Historical Interpretation” makes many of the same points and is available online.

Professor Obayemi died some time ago but there have been efforts to preserve his unpublished research: https://eap.bl.uk/project/EAP050

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Re: The Name Benin Was Not Gotten From Ife But Itsekiri by macof(m): 10:42pm On Apr 26, 2020
TerraCotta:


I stay away from these types of discussions but wanted to point out that “ogie” probably does not strictly mean “king” in Edo. It more closely matches up with a title of nobility like “duke” or “baron” in English, which tallies up with cognate terms like “oye/oloye” in Yoruba and related languages. The “gh” (as in “oghene”) is called a voiced velar fricative in linguistics and is regularly pronounced as “-y” or “-w” or elided altogether in modern standard (Oyo) Yoruba, although it’s retained and still prominent in both northeast and southeast variants of Yoruba and in Igala. This suggests it’s an older inherited sound that changes in the Oyo-speaking region.

Might be interesting insights for anyone interested in this.


Legit point here. Gives more clarity to the etymologically nature of "Enogie" as well


Although I think you might find that the "ogie/ovie" form has evolved to mean king in the edoid languages if this theory of yours ultimately proves to be true

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Re: The Name Benin Was Not Gotten From Ife But Itsekiri by TAO11(f): 11:42pm On Apr 26, 2020
TerraCotta:


I see what you mean. I wouldn’t credit this idea to Bondarenko (or me, obviously) though—it’s a central idea of Professor Obayemi’s mini-state and mega-state taxonomy mentioned a while ago. It’s explained in his essay “The Yoruba and Edo-Speaking Peoples and Their Neighbors before 1600 a.d.,” in History of West Africa, vol. 1 (second edition) from 1971. It’s not easy to find a copy unfortunately but his essay “Ancient Ife: Antother Cultural-Historical Interpretation” makes many of the same points and is available online.

Professor Obayemi died some time ago but there have been efforts to preserve his unpublished research: https://eap.bl.uk/project/EAP050

You're right. He actually cited Obayemi right there.

Thanks for your profound insights. Thanks for the link too.

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Re: The Name Benin Was Not Gotten From Ife But Itsekiri by AjaanaOka(m): 11:45am On Sep 20, 2020
TerraCotta:


I stay away from these types of discussions but wanted to point out that “ogie” probably does not strictly mean “king” in Edo. It more closely matches up with a title of nobility like “duke” or “baron” in English, which tallies up with cognate terms like “oye/oloye” in Yoruba and related languages. The “gh” (as in “oghene”) is called a voiced velar fricative in linguistics and is regularly pronounced as “-y” or “-w” or elided altogether in modern standard (Oyo) Yoruba, although it’s retained and still prominent in both northeast and southeast variants of Yoruba and in Igala. This suggests it’s an older inherited sound that changes in the Oyo-speaking region.

Might be interesting insights for anyone interested in this.


Interesting. I've suspected for sometime now that Oye (Yoruba), Ogie (Benin), Ovie (Urhobo) and Eze (Igbo) are cognates, despite Eze looking nothing like the rest.

This suspicion was strengthened when I read Dr Blench's reconstruction of proto-Igboid, where he postulated that in the proto-Igboid stage of Igbo linguistic evolution, Eze was Eje. The interchangeability of Z and J is well-known. Examples: Izon/Ijọ, Oja/Oza (market in Yoruba and Olukumi), Nzele/Njele (titled men in different parts of Anioma, Ezomo/Ojomo (war title in Benin and Eastern Yoruba); and, taking an example from Indo-European, Zeus-Pater/Jupiter (the head of the Indo-European pantheon in Greek and Latin).

With this knowlege, the relationship is easier to see:

Oche (Idoma) - Oye (Yoruba) - Ovie (Urhobo/Isoko) - Ogie (Benin) - Oje (Esan) - Eje (Blench's Proto-Igboid) - Eze (modern Igbo)

It is highly unlikely that the proto-YEAI ancestor of these words meant 'king'. The neolithic small-scale society of the proto-YEAI period of our history probably didn't have kings, and thus no words for it.

It is more likely that the word was used for distinguished men that commanded respect. Much, much, later after proto-YEAI had diverged into its daughter language groups(Yoruboid, Edoid, Akokoid, Igboid) and some of those groups had gone on to develop mini-states and kingdoms, new words were either coined for 'king' (e.g., oba, obi, etc), or the old word underwent semantic change to accommodate the novel institution.

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Re: The Name Benin Was Not Gotten From Ife But Itsekiri by Donarozzi: 6:01pm On Sep 25, 2020
AjaanaOka:


Interesting. I've suspected for sometime now that Oye (Yoruba), Ogie (Benin), Ovie (Urhobo) and Eze (Igbo) are cognates, despite Eze looking nothing like the rest.

This suspicion was strengthened when I read Dr Blench's reconstruction of proto-Igboid, where he postulated that in the proto-Igboid stage of Igbo linguistic evolution, Eze was Eje. The interchangeability of Z and J is well-known. Examples: Izon/Ijọ, Oja/Oza (market in Yoruba and Olukumi), Nzele/Njele (titled men in different parts of Anioma, Ezomo/Ojomo (war title in Benin and Eastern Yoruba); and, taking an example from Indo-European, Zeus-Pater/Jupiter (the head of the Indo-European pantheon in Greek and Latin).

With this knowlege, the relationship is easier to see:

Oche (Idoma) - Oye (Yoruba) - Ovie (Urhobo/Isoko) - Ogie (Benin) - Oje (Esan) - Eje (Blench's Proto-Igboid) - Eze (modern Igbo)

It is highly unlikely that the proto-YEAI ancestor of these words meant 'king'. The neolithic small-scale society of the proto-YEAI period of our history probably didn't have kings, and thus no words for it.

It is more likely that the word was used for distinguished men that commanded respect. Much, much, later after proto-YEAI had diverged into its daughter language groups(Yoruboid, Edoid, Akokoid, Igboid) and some of those groups had gone on to develop mini-states and kingdoms, new words were either coined for 'king' (e.g., oba, obi, etc), or the old word underwent semantic change to accommodate the novel institution.

AjaanaOka, it is a great postulation that the proto-Igbo word for Eze was Eje, but the postulation is wrong. Secondly, while Oye (Yoruba), Ogie (Benin), Ovie (Urhobo), Oje (Esan) could probably be cognates derived from the same root word in the proto-lingual stage, they are not cognates with Eze (Igbo). In my future writings, I will teach and explain the most likely proto-Igbo word from which Eze is derived. And this will also relate to the most likely section of Igboland from where all Igbo people spread out many millennia ago.
Re: The Name Benin Was Not Gotten From Ife But Itsekiri by AjaanaOka(m): 8:53am On Sep 26, 2020
Donarozzi:


AjaanaOka, it is a great postulation that the proto-Igbo word for Eze was Eje, but the postulation is wrong. Secondly, while Oye (Yoruba), Ogie (Benin), Ovie (Urhobo), Oje (Esan) could probably be cognates derived from the same root word in the proto-lingual stage, they are not cognates with Eze (Igbo). In my future writings, I will teach and explain the most likely proto-Igbo word from which Eze is derived. And this will also relate to the most likely section of Igboland from where all Igbo people spread out many millennia ago.

I think I know what your likely explanation of Eze is going to be.

Eze does sound like it could have been derived from the root '- zee' which means "avoid" . Ezes (whether they be priests or titled men) usually have a long list of taboos they're expected to keep. An Eze could then be one who 'avoids' certain things that could desecrate him.

This is an explanation I personally came to many years ago before I delved into historical linguistics, and this is also the explanation offered by Professor Ifemesia in one his old books on Igbo history.

One of the things I have learnt from historical linguistics is the concept of false cognates and etymologies. A very obvious connection could be incorrect, especially if one doesn't try to take into account how languages have evolved and changed over years.

The Oche-Oje-Eje-Eze connection could very well be wrong. But I'm convinced it is a hypothesis very worthy of consideration.

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Re: The Name Benin Was Not Gotten From Ife But Itsekiri by TerraCotta(m): 4:05pm On Sep 28, 2020
AjaanaOka:


Interesting. I've suspected for sometime now that Oye (Yoruba), Ogie (Benin), Ovie (Urhobo) and Eze (Igbo) are cognates, despite Eze looking nothing like the rest.

This suspicion was strengthened when I read Dr Blench's reconstruction of proto-Igboid, where he postulated that in the proto-Igboid stage of Igbo linguistic evolution, Eze was Eje. The interchangeability of Z and J is well-known. Examples: Izon/Ijọ, Oja/Oza (market in Yoruba and Olukumi), Nzele/Njele (titled men in different parts of Anioma, Ezomo/Ojomo (war title in Benin and Eastern Yoruba); and, taking an example from Indo-European, Zeus-Pater/Jupiter (the head of the Indo-European pantheon in Greek and Latin).

With this knowlege, the relationship is easier to see:

Oche (Idoma) - Oye (Yoruba) - Ovie (Urhobo/Isoko) - Ogie (Benin) - Oje (Esan) - Eje (Blench's Proto-Igboid) - Eze (modern Igbo)

It is highly unlikely that the proto-YEAI ancestor of these words meant 'king'. The neolithic small-scale society of the proto-YEAI period of our history probably didn't have kings, and thus no words for it.

It is more likely that the word was used for distinguished men that commanded respect. Much, much, later after proto-YEAI had diverged into its daughter language groups(Yoruboid, Edoid, Akokoid, Igboid) and some of those groups had gone on to develop mini-states and kingdoms, new words were either coined for 'king' (e.g., oba, obi, etc), or the old word underwent semantic change to accommodate the novel institution.

Fascinating and thanks for pointing this out. It seems so obvious when you put in perspective but I’d completely missed ‘eze’ as a cognate when looking at various Nigerian languages. “Ozo” had occurred to me as a possible cognate but I hadn’t done much research beyond noting the similar sound. I appreciate your caveats but I have very little doubt that you’re right about this one.

It’s even more interesting on a comparative basis that some of these cognate terms are closer in sound than their modern variants might suggest, i.e. the little-used Yoruba term “Iye/Eye”, meaning something befitting or conferring of status, as in the Ekiti state slogan ‘Ilu Iyi, Ilu Eye’. Forgive the accent of tonal marks, which would help to make the case even clearer.

It would be fantastic to know if “Ze” or Proto-Igbo “-Je” had a similar connotation (“suitable; conferring status” etc) and also if there are semantic references to particular birds, feathers or feathered headdresses with any of these terms. I realize that’s much more of a stretch but it’s a recurring theme historically that I think is possibly central to understanding how these terms came to be and what they reference.

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