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Stats: 2,483,164 members, 5,622,972 topics. Date: Thursday, 28 May 2020 at 08:50 AM
Do People Who Speak In Tongues Fake It Or Understand It? / 7 Reasons Why Every Believer Should Speak In Tongues - Kenneth E Hagin / Daddy Freeze: "Speaking In Tongues In Nigerian Churches Is Fake” (2) (3) (4)
|Re: I Should Speak In Tongues, Right? by ublight: 9:27pm On May 16|
another cheap point jw folks trying to score.
www.livingwordmedia.org should end this argument.
Visit the website and thank me later
|Re: I Should Speak In Tongues, Right? by Maximus69: 9:41pm On May 16|
Only the Jehovah's Witness made the strongest point that touched you in the whole thread.
Well you need not bring in any link Sir, all you need now is present the BENEFITS of this your speaking in tongues amongst you people!
Jehovah's Witnesses have spoken in over 1020 languages and all those who embraced the pure language have dropped all harmful weapons throughout the earth, they're now a global family! Zephaniah 3:9
|Re: I Should Speak In Tongues, Right? by hupernikao: 12:04am On May 17|
It seems you actually arent ready to discuss your OP. You seem to be trying to move away from examining your OP and scriptures you used. You will need to follow properly our discussion and make me know exactly where i faulted.
My current concern is to investigate tongues as qualified by the writers of bible firstly because that is where many normally, including your OP waved away in discussing tongues. Whether tongue is for Jews or Gentile is a secondary thing for now, what is primarily is usage of the word. The writers were deliberate in using those words and these are the same words you arent ready to investigate.
You said the below
Whatever your next exposition is, remember that signs were for the Jews rather than for Gentiles. “For the Jews require a sign . . . ” (1 Corinthians 1:22). Whenever the gift of tongues was exercised Jews were present, tongues-speaking being used either to communicate the Gospel (as the OP states) or else to confirm to the Jews that the Gentiles were worthy of salvation and should therefore have the Gospel also.
As i told you, you cant be using any scriptures that come to mind to explain facts. You must present scriptures in context of their explanation. 1 Cor 1:22 is absolutely a different terrain that has no bearing on issue of tongues neither did Paul said the "sign" there is tongue. You are the one who want to draft that in here. And we wont start referring to tongue anywhere we see the word "sign".
Secondly, the church in Corinth can be referred to as a gentile church, with Christian Jews (taught by Paul not Peter o) sir and Paul explained well in 1 Cor 14 what tongue is about. You are the one reading your meaning as above into the scriptures.
You also said
Finally, you said: “It is not a tongue of a tribe or a human nation but the people of God”. This statement is your invention. However, the scriptures says: “You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires;...to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.” (Ephesians 4:17,22-24). Your insertion of “tongue of a tribe or human nation” is a dubious and manipulative. It doesn’t agree with Ephesians 4, Leviticus 18 and 19, 1 Peter 4 and every scripture that speaks of how believers must be different from the world.
You quoted me wrongly, Bro, but i will manage it. But the facts is you havent shown me how it is my invention. Is tongue new as in new language not human? If no, give me scriptures and tell me why Jesus referred to tongue as kainos.
I am wondering where Ephe 4 contradicts that. Ephe 4 used new man, that is a new creation, Paul called it a man after God, created in holiness and righteousness. That isnt Adamic sir. That is man in Christ, a truly new (kainos) man. That same creature has to past, no record or usage before. This isnt refering to difference from point of man but of God. You are firstly a NEW man CREATED IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, that is why you can live righteously.
This is the same language of new creation and same as that of Jesus as i pointed to you. Pleasssssssssse read all verses i gave you and dont move fast across the response.
In all, it still remain that you are giving a distracting response and you arent approaching my submission. Why was tongue called NEW (kainos). Have you checked the usage of that word? Why did Jesus chose such word to explain tongues. This is the focus of this part.
If tongue is called new (kainos) tongue, then it cant be human language. Check by part 2 well i have given you enough scriptures for that else present the reason it is refer to as new (kainos) by Jesus and not strange or foreign tongues.
Jesus called it new, the same way he called his testament new, covenant new etc. This tongue is NEW.[/b] and that new is relative to the fact that it is not human language.
|Re: I Should Speak In Tongues, Right? by Maximus69: 3:52am On May 17|
SPEAK ability to communicate and the import of that is the cordiality between those SPEAKING the same language!
They should speak with one voice! Zephaniah 3:9
There shouldn't be division amongst them! 1Corinthians 1:10
Everywhere you find them, they have the same line of thought both home and abroad! 2Corinthians 13:11
So if your FAITH makes you speak "abrakadabra" but it's not fulfilling all the purposes mentioned above, then it's worthless! James 2:18-26
God bless you!
|Re: I Should Speak In Tongues, Right? by Goshen360(m): 4:08am On May 17|
Again, I pitch my tent and keenly following, learning and enjoying the conversation
|Re: I Should Speak In Tongues, Right? by MuttleyLaff: 7:33am On May 17|
Maximus69:"Abosi akan, omi ni, o otu" lmao,
fyi, "mi o jọra mi loju, bi ti ẹ" loosely translated means "I don't climb on top a high horse, like you do"
Maximus69:You have no attention to detail and don't understand the meaning of drinking wine, sharing and breaking bread together in a philadelphia manner
Maximus69:I typed Teacher and not teachers, please next time pay attention
|Re: I Should Speak In Tongues, Right? by MuttleyLaff: 7:33am On May 17|
The word "abracadabra" is a phrase that crossed into English use, popularised by magicians, who had witnessed rabbis, in cause of doing their healing sessions, saying out loud the word "abracadabra", as in like, see them repeating the word "abracadabra", in the form of doing an incantation.
The word "abracadabra" incidentally, is a Hebrew word and contains the word which is the second word of the Torah "bara" that means, to create. The remaining letters of the phrase add up to 26 which could be recognized, as the numerical value for YHVH – The name of God
Now, the thing is, the word "abracadabra" really in Hebrew, means “I will create, as I speak” and the idea behind the rabbis, reciting "abracadabra", as in meaning, saying the "abracadabra" word over and over again or constantly, is because they have this belief and/or idea that they are copying God's style of speech when He was making creation, this being that it is believed that "abracadabra" (i.e. I will create as I speak) is the word that God spoke when He created the world, so in effect, it is believed that, God said, "abracadabra" and creation unfolded and happened.
"And Moses crieth unto Jehovah, saying,
'O God, I pray Thee, give, I pray Thee, healing to her.'"
- Numbers 12:13
So, in Numbers 12:13 above, we see Moses praying for healing, cry out to God about his sister Miriam, saying: "Please heal her, O God, I pray!" Ancient Jews believed that healing comes from invoking the name of God and it is noticed from Numbers 12:13 above that the first thing Moses did, was not say the name of God, but was invoke the name of God. He then, said over and over again, the Hebrew words "Na rapha, Na rapha" to God, as in, over and over, saying "Please heal, please heal" to God, concerning Miriam. Moses literally was chanting "I pray healing, I pray healing" and the rest is history.
Since the word "abracadabra" is not in the Bible, though found in mystical Jewish literature (i.e. screenshot above) where God is found to say "abracadabra" and thereafter the world was created, wisdom advises against trying to start or be thinking of specifying the word "abracadabra" in and/or during healing exercises. The reason is because, it is the principle here that counts, not the use of word "abracadabra" itself. Whats the principle lmao? Well, it's the style, tool and/or discipline behind it. It's what Moses did in Numbers 12:13, so like how he did, invoke God's name, then insert whatever it is that the prayer is about, backed up with supporting Bible verse(s). For example, you can pray like this: YAH, have mercy please, then repeat with "His mercy endures forever" quoted from 1 Chronicles 16:34, Psalm 106: 1, or Psalm 100:5 etcetera. This when praying, just helps towards aligning the body and soul with the spirit, in getting it focused and concentrated on God. Another example can be: YAH, healing please I pray, then repeat with a bible supporting verse like "By His stripes we are healed" (i.e. Isaiah 53:5) "abracadabra" is not in the Bible, but something like "His mercy endures forever" and "By His stripes we are healed" are in, so these are win, win, situations then.
|Re: I Should Speak In Tongues, Right? by MuttleyLaff: 7:43am On May 17|
Goshen360:I hardly take a learning opportunity away from another, lmao.
|Re: I Should Speak In Tongues, Right? by Maximus69: 7:43am On May 17|
Thanks for the write-up, but as i've told you earlier "I believe (trust) in only one source of divine guidance (JW)"
That's the one and only group where i look forward to for exchange of encouragement as iron sharpened iron.
So do well to present your own version or understanding as regards "speaking in tongues" i'm 100% certain that people will learn from whatever you post but definitely not my type!
|Re: I Should Speak In Tongues, Right? by ublight: 7:43am On May 17|
everyone now wants to be a Bible teacher. Smh
|Re: I Should Speak In Tongues, Right? by Maximus69: 7:49am On May 17|
Count me out!
I only make presentations for interested followers to pick something up and if any does i immediately direct him/her to my brothers and sisters in his neighbourhood who will teach him/her face to face just as Jesus commanded! Matthew 10:3-15, 28:19-20
We don't teach people without showing them how to practically apply it, that's why they must see the way it is done!
|Re: I Should Speak In Tongues, Right? by Acehart: 7:49am On May 17|
That’s what Moses prayed for (Numbers 11:29).
|Re: I Should Speak In Tongues, Right? by MuttleyLaff: 7:53am On May 17|
Maximus69:I reiterate, my primary source is my Teacher, now please tell Maximus69, who, where and what is the source of this divine guidance JW that you no doubt believe (i.e. trust) in, hmm?
Maximus69:Plonk "MuttleyLaff tongues" into Nairaland search field, to find no less than 8 pages of varied form of write-ups I have posted on the spiritual gift of speaking in tongues
|Re: I Should Speak In Tongues, Right? by Maximus69: 7:55am On May 17|
And Jesus also used an illustration to do the same!
He said "do not stop anyone from preaching or teaching in my name" Luke 9:49-50
But in another illustration he made it clear that a time will come when many will start acting as teachers of Christianity, instead of stopping them they should be allowed to continue, because as times go on their fruit will expose them if they're truly his own or not! Matthew 13:24-30
|Re: I Should Speak In Tongues, Right? by Goshen360(m): 7:56am On May 17|
|Re: I Should Speak In Tongues, Right? by Acehart: 7:57am On May 17|
Very true. None would have spoken better.
|Re: I Should Speak In Tongues, Right? by Maximus69: 8:01am On May 17|
(1)You need not worried about the source of my own so far you're confident of yours! Luke 20:2
(2) As i formally said, i'm not interested in your write-up Sir. Once you've made your points interested persons will notice it and pick one or two things from it but definitely not my type!
|Re: I Should Speak In Tongues, Right? by MuttleyLaff: 8:20am On May 17|
MuttleyLaff:"Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers,
because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly."
- James 3:1
Fyi, you all so called teachers, lmao, to whom much is given, much will be required (i.e. Luke 12:48)
|Re: I Should Speak In Tongues, Right? by MuttleyLaff: 8:45am On May 17|
Maximus69:You're worried your source is suspect unlike my MVP Teacher, so the reason why you have to sign post me to Luke 20:2, lmao
Maximus69:Pipul dey cook rice, where you hear say dem tok wan serve you plate chop. Dem neva grind beans finish, akara dey smell. Yahoo ni babalawo. Ole ni everybody. Ẹni ilẹ mọ ba, sa ni barawo - Naira Marley (2019)
|Re: I Should Speak In Tongues, Right? by Maximus69: 9:11am On May 17|
Once my message is clear to the OP, i'm satisfied!
|Re: I Should Speak In Tongues, Right? by MuttleyLaff: 9:15am On May 17|
|Re: I Should Speak In Tongues, Right? by Maximus69: 9:37am On May 17|
Jesus is still teaching his own group today as he did in the first century, the problem is how to IDENTIFY them in the midst of over 2,300,000,000 people scattered in 41,000 different religions all claiming Christians today!
I was a Muslim before i began studying the Bible with Jesus' group, that was 15 years ago. But today many people who know me thougth i've been like this all my life!
|Re: I Should Speak In Tongues, Right? by Acehart: 10:36am On May 17|
Where would you like me to start? Then, detail the order you would want me to respond.
|Re: I Should Speak In Tongues, Right? by hupernikao: 5:20pm On May 17|
You know what to do sir, it's obvious you aren't a starter. You have shown good zeal for bible already.
|Re: I Should Speak In Tongues, Right? by PharmaGirl(f): 8:48pm On May 17|
OP kindly explain Mark 16:17
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
|Re: I Should Speak In Tongues, Right? by Acehart: 11:51pm On May 17|
This verse and its parallels in the synoptic gospels are referred to as “The Great Commission”. Please permit me to infer from the Oxford dictionary meaning of the word “commission“ every now and then in my explanation.
1.order or authorize the production of (something). 2. bring (something newly produced) into working condition.
I would like to stick with the second meaning of as it would help me make sense.
One of principles used in interpreting the scriptures is the principle of questioning the situation; I mean one asks: who is speaking? Who is being spoken to? who said it? where was it spoken? etc. For instance: Eliphaz says to Job, “you shall decree a thing and it would come to pass. God then says, “Everything Eliphaz said is a lie”. If I then try to adopt Eliphaz’s word without knowing what God’s reply was, I’ll be in error. Another instance is Jesus’ letter to the seven churches in Asia Minor: if Jesus said anything to the church in Philadelphia, it is strictly for Philadelphia and it shouldn’t be applied to Ephesus.
The dictionary says: “bring something newly produced“. So what was newly produced? The Apostles were newly produced. (Please remember that Jesus sent his disciples in twos in Mark 6:6-7 to preach and cast out devils (without the instruction to speak in new tongues); and they were sent to preach to the Jews only). So the principle of questioning comes into focus: who was Jesus speaking to? The Apostles. (Please notice that this new instruction is to His eleven Apostles (Judas excluded); the previous instruction to the seventy and twelve men in Jesus’ fold referred to as His disciples (Judas included).)
It’s quite straightforward to see that casting out demons in the previous instruction still abides and the method to exorcise the demon-possessed remains. So this instruction concerning casting out of demons is “old”. What is “new” is the instruction concerning “tongues”. The commission began in Mark 16:15 with the instruction to preach to the world; in contrast to the instruction to preach only within the borders of Israel. Now the dilemma comes: they are Galileans or nationals of the Jewish nation who can only speak their native language. The task or working condition (as the dictionary puts it) to preach the gospel in their old (native) language to non-Jewish nationals would be an impossible or tedious one. So, something new has to replace what was old.
Going to the Thayer’s Biblical dictionary translation of the Greek word for “New” - Kainos, meaning:
1. With respect to form: Recently made, fresh, recent, unused, unworn.
2. With respect to substances: Novel, uncommon, unheard of
Since language is a form rather than a substance, let me dwell in the former definition. The first definition is the same description given to the donkey which no man has ridden on(Luke 19:30); and to Jesus when the guards replied: “No one ever spoke the way this man does” (John 7:46). That donkey was part of a group of animals referred to as “donkeys”; but what set it apart from other donkeys was its quality- purity and newness. Jesus was part of a group of creatures referred to as “man“; but what set Him apart was the mode of His language (speech). The writeup says: “tongue” means “language” or “dialect”. Combining the two definitions and inferring from the illustrations of the donkey and Jesus, we would see that the categorization of this new language belongs is something generic; that generic thing is human languages; but what will differ is the quality of what proceeds from the mouths of the Apostles which will be something unique and fresh while using human language.
Paul then defines this new tongue as: Tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe, but to the unbelieving' (1 Corinthians 14:22). Do the unbelieving understand what isn’t peculiar? - I ask regarding languages.
(Please remember the verse says: these “signs” will accompany those who have believed. The verse didn’t say, shall accompany those who will believe. Were these signs necessary at the beginning (commissioning) of Christianity? Sure, so that Christianity can take root in places beautiful feet haven’t stepped upon.)
I’d like to discontinue for now so that I may rest and perhaps I may get a response to what I have written so far when I awake in the morning.
Good night ma’am
|Re: I Should Speak In Tongues, Right? by Goshen360(m): 1:59am On May 18|
Let me read side - by - side and compare what was said by both.
|Re: I Should Speak In Tongues, Right? by Goshen360(m): 2:37am On May 18|
This thread is going somewhere and it was a nice comparison reading both commentaries on Mark 16vs17
Let me wait for both hupernikao and Acehart to engage themselves in debate, question and answer before I ask a question. Both of them saying two different things completely in respect to "new" tongues as in Mark 16vs17.
|Re: I Should Speak In Tongues, Right? by Acehart: 5:43am On May 18|
I have made a few corrections, sir. So you may have to edit my part.
|Re: I Should Speak In Tongues, Right? by Goshen360(m): 7:23am On May 18|
Seen and corrected.
|Re: I Should Speak In Tongues, Right? by MuttleyLaff: 8:25am On May 18|
Goshen360:''These are the miraculous signs that will accompany believers:
They will use the power and authority of my name to force demons out of people.
They will speak new languages (i.e. new tongues)"
- Mark 16:17
"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God:
for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries"
- 1 Corinthians 14:2 KJV
Here is an illustration of what 1 Corinthians 14:2 is saying:
If Acehart, hupernikao and Goshen360 speak and understand only Igbo, but I, MuttleyLaff, bilingual in Igbo and Hausa, start to begin speaking, preaching or praying in Hausa, then the Hausa tongue or language would be unknown to Acehart, hupernikao and Goshen360, none of the trio, Acehart, hupernikao and Goshen360 would understand what I said, preached or prayed in Hausa language/tongue. I in effect wouldnt be communicating with any other them, as it all be mysteries to them what I said, preached or prayed in the Hausa tongue. It is only God, the "Arinu lode, Olumọran ọkan", ( i.e. He who sees the inside and He who knows whats in the heart) who will understand what I said, preached or prayed in that Hausa tongue, not you, as God understands all languages or tongues.
Now cycling back to Mark 16:17, with special focus placed on "new tongues" or "new languages" and its very important, the plural designation. This Mark 16:17 prophetic verse, as declared by Yehushua Ha Mashsiach, aka, our Lord and Saviour of the whole wide world has already been fulfilled. Before furthering on, let's first recollect the above 1 Corinthians 14:2 illustration with Acehart, hupernikao and Goshen360 used as reference in it. Now, what if by some miraculous feat and/or means, Acehart, hupernikao and Goshen360 happen to one day, woke up and started speaking in a Hausa language/tongue, doesn't that mean that Acehart, hupernikao and Goshen360 were then speaking in a new language/tongue ni, hmm?
At the first recorded instance of fulfilling this Jesus' uttered prophecy (i.e. Act 2:4), the disciples began speaking in new tongues, such that the visiting pilgrims, Israelites that have travelled far from all parts of Israel to Jerusalem for the Passover festival began hearing the disciples preach and proclaim the message of the Gospel in the hearing, listening and understanding ears of each of these congregated Israelites (i.e. Acts 2:5-11), albeit the disciples never until that moment had the ability to communicate in those tongues before. It was all new to them, as much as it was shocking to all who heard them (i.e. Acts 2:12)
We need to remember that, Jesus, three verse before Mark 16:17, actually did, tongue lash the disciples for not first believing that He has resurrected, lmao (i.e. not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen) It was after the tongue lashing that He now prophesied about speaking in new tongues/languages and of course the purpose for that is to override unbelief. Whose unbelief, are we talking off us here then? Whose unbelief, do you think this primarily is? Why are miraculous signs required/needed?
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