Tanzimat reform was under the Ottoman Empire in the 19th century. It decriminalised homosexuality amidst a bunch of other reforms. How do you view this as a Muslim?

The discrimination! must have been a mercy to them.

aadoiza:
The discrimination! must have been a mercy to them.

Huh?

LordReed:


Huh?

What?

aadoiza:

What?

What discrimination are you talking about?

LordReed:


What discrimination are you talking about?

Yeeh! Pardon my mistake. I read the heading wrong.

LordReed:
Tanzimat reform was under the Ottoman Empire in the 19th century. It decriminalised homosexuality amidst a bunch of other reforms. How do you view this as a Muslim?

As long as the Qur'an isn't changing,the law is the law, Empires come and go.There are claims most of the Empire Leaders were Homos and Hypocritical.Just like today's Tayyip Erdogan.

LordReed:
Tanzimat reform was under the Ottoman Empire in the 19th century. It decriminalised homosexuality amidst a bunch of other reforms. How do you view this as a Muslim?

I'm not actually familiar with this event, but as far as Islam goes guidance is only from Allah and his Messenger SAW. Islam does not dance to the tunes of individuals, or civilisations. If Allah says it's lawful then it's lawful, and if He says it's forbidden then it's forbidden, no questions asked, no Yoruba Yoruba. As a matter of fact, Saudi can go ahead and declare homo lawful it still won't change a thing to true Muslims. Geddit?

I haven't found much in depth information on this.

But I remember someone on r/izlam explaining it as they decriminalised homosexuality being that having a same-sex sexual attraction was not a crime and not punished, but sodomy was still a crime and punished according to Islamic law.
I'm not sure if this is correct though.

Islam and most Muslim societies are openly anti-homosexual and that's no secret
Now my personal though on is, I'm rather neutral on the subject. The ottomans did what they did for their own reasons.

My commentary on homosexuality.
The libertarian leaning side of myself holds the opinion that no government or authority should interfere in an individual's private life as long as they don't interfere with someone else's life or cause harm to another. From this position is where I view homosexuality, if their activities are proven to affect the community, society and everyone negatively, then criminalisation and punishment makes sense (even though attraction isn't something that's under your voluntary control), but if not, why should you care & why do you want to control someone else?

We don't really know the cause of homosexuality and neither can we cure it, attempts have been made, but they weren't humane and weren't successful. And every society to exist has had gay people openly or secretly, and killing or imprisoning all of them is not the solution. This is the reality of the matter. I'm not a fan of acceptance culture that comes from the west, but this is something we have to confront.

aadoiza:

I'm not actually familiar with this event, but as far as Islam goes guidance is only from Allah and his Messenger SAW. Islam does not dance to the tunes of individuals, or civilisations. If Allah says it's lawful then it's lawful, and if He says it's forbidden then it's forbidden, no questions asked, no Yoruba Yoruba. As a matter of fact, Saudi can go ahead and declare homo lawful it still won't change a thing to true Muslims. Geddit?

So you won't complain if the same thing happened here in Nigeria?

sulasa07:

As long as the Qur'an isn't changing,the law is the law, Empires come and go.There are claims most of the Empire Leaders were Homos and Hypocritical.Just like today's Tayyip Erdogan.

So you won't complain if the same thing happened here in Nigeria?

IMAliyu:
I haven't found much in depth information on this.

But I remember someone on r/izlam explaining it as they decriminalised homosexuality being that having a same-sex sexual attraction was not a crime and not punished, but sodomy was still a crime and punished according to Islamic law.
I'm not sure if this is correct though.

Islam and most Muslim societies are openly anti-homosexual and that's no secret
Now my personal though on is, I'm rather neutral on the subject. The ottomans did what they did for their own reasons.

My commentary on homosexuality.
The libertarian leaning side of myself holds the opinion that no government or authority should interfere in an individual's private life as long as they don't interfere with someone else's life or cause harm to another. From this position is where I view homosexuality, if their activities are proven to affect the community, society and everyone negatively, then criminalisation and punishment makes sense (even though attraction isn't something that's under your voluntary control), but if not, why should you care & why do you want to control someone else?

We don't really know the cause of homosexuality and neither can we cure it, attempts have been made, but they weren't humane and weren't successful. And every society to exist has had gay people openly or secretly, and killing or imprisoning all of them is not the solution. This is the reality of the matter. I'm not a fan of acceptance culture that comes from the west, but this is something we have to confront.

As an side what do think is a solution to homosexuals in the society at large if you don't want acceptance?

LordReed:


As an side what do think is a solution to homosexuals in the society at large if you don't want acceptance?

I don't mind decriminalisation, but I don't think a traditionalist society like ours is going to accept it or the societal normalisation of it.

So live and let live?

I said I'm not a fan of the "acceptance culture" and not accepting things on a case by case basis. When we let acceptance to run loose we end up in weird places.
E.g. in some parts of the west, the idea of gender being separate from biological sex and we have people coming up with their own pronounce, the infinite number of genders. Some calling for the acceptance of pedos and incest...

IMAliyu:

I don't mind decriminalisation, but I don't think a traditionalist society like ours is going to accept it or the societal normalisation of it.

So live and let live?

I said I'm not a fan of the "acceptance culture" not accepting things on a case by case basis. When we let acceptance to run loose we end up in weird places.
E.g. in some parts of the west, the idea of gender being separate from biological sex and we have people coming up with their own pronounce, the infinite number of genders. Some calling for the acceptance of pedos and incest...

Sounds reasonable.

LordReed:


So you won't complain if the same thing happened here in Nigeria?

This is Nigeria,it won't happen

sulasa07:

This is Nigeria,it won't happen

So you think. Social mores change all the time, just take a look at the baby mama thing.

sulasa07:

This is Nigeria,it won't happen

Why do you think so?

tintingz:


Why do you think so?

Just still believing so but we already have Bobrisky,Adenrele and others among us,I know they are crossdressers but most crossdressers are gay

LordReed:


So you won't complain if the same thing happened here in Nigeria?

I might not, provided it's not turned into some sorta agenda.
My biggest problem with homosexuality is not that some people do it (people do a lot of weird stuff) but that a supposedly civilised people are bent on normalising it. Some people are turd eaters, therefore coprophagy should be normalised right?

Whatever wierd crap you relish doing keep it under wraps. Simple!

aadoiza:

I might not, provided it's not turned into some sorta agenda.
My biggest problem with homosexuality is not that some people do it (people do a lot of weird stuff) but that a supposedly civilised people are bent on normalising it. Some people are turd eaters, therefore coprophagy should be normalised right?

Whatever wierd crap you relish doing keep it under wraps. Simple!

The reason for the need to normalize it is because people use it as an excuse to deny other peoples rights.

LordReed:


The reason for the need to normalize it is because people use it as an excuse to deny other peoples rights.

How's that even possible if you don't go around telling people about your deviant way of life?

aadoiza:

How's that even possible if you don't go around telling people about your deviant way of life?

Prejudicial criminalizing it is a denial of rights. Do you need to announce it before it is known? Does a man need to announce he is sleeping with a sex worker when he is seen with her in a hotel?

LordReed:


Prejudicial criminalizing it is a denial of rights. Do you need to announce it before it is known? Does a man need to announce he is sleeping with a sex worker when he is seen with her in a hotel?

Do you think we were really oblivious of such deviant inclination as homosexuality. We were well aware of it Ll right, and we detested and despiced it, but looked the other way.
The prejudicial criminalizing Is merely a ramification of homosexuality being weaponized and made a social engineering tool.

aadoiza:

Do you think we were really oblivious of such deviant inclination as homosexuality. We were well aware of it Ll right, and we detested and despiced it, but looked the other way.
The prejudicial criminalizing Is merely a ramification of homosexuality being weaponized and made a social engineering tool.

Weaponized in what way? How is it a being made into a social engineering tool?

LordReed:


Weaponized in what way? How is it a being made into a social engineering tool?

A few years ago, Desmond the amazing (whatever he's called), a drag kid, performed in a bar full of gay people but the world moved on without raising an eyebrow. Now, imagine a bar full of normal guys watching and drinking to a female minor twerking, I'm sure the headlines would be earth shattering.
That's weaponization, mate. They can do as they like, and normal people dare not slate them for fear of being tagged homophobic.

Social Engineering: Do not tell me you haven't come across suggestions to normal people to try out homosexuality. Or why are kids suddenly encouraged to choose their gender, after having been born a particular gender?

aadoiza:

A few years ago, Desmond the amazing (whatever he's called), a drag kid, performed in a bar full of gay people but the world moved on without raising an eyebrow. Now, imagine a bar full of normal guys watching and drinking to a female minor twerking, I'm sure the headlines would be earth shattering.
That's weaponization, mate. They can do as they like, and normal people dare not slate them for fear of being tagged homophobic.

You cannot compare a child actor who happens to be gay with a minor being used for sexual fetishes, not even in the same ball park.

Social Engineering: Do not tell me you haven't come across suggestions to normal people to try out homosexuality. Or why are kids suddenly encouraged to choose their gender, after having been born a particular gender?

No I have never seen any suggestion to heterosexuals to try homosexuality. Can you show me an example?

LordReed:


You cannot compare a child actor who happens to be gay with a minor being used for sexual fetishes, not even in the same ball park.

Is a minor supposed to be in a bar? Are there not old-enough gay men they could have hired fur their entertainment?

No I have never seen any suggestion to heterosexuals to try homosexuality. Can you show me an example?

Funny you haven't. If I come across such again I will post it here.
When I was a lad, I thought I was a computer . I still remember one of my big sis saying "no, you're not a computer". But these days if a child thinks their opposite gender, they're proded into taking hormones to ease them into becoming that. Shame!. All of a sudden, minors can act legally, only when they decide to switch genders. What happens to "wait till the age of 18"? I guess it's only relevant if the civilised people say so.