Scatterscatter:


So you think the leprosy will return to the man if he didn't show himself to the priests? Someone Jesus Christ healed! You think God needs the approval or declaration of men to make a miracle permanent?

See, If you still can't decode why Jesus asked to leper to go to the priest, I'm afraid you need to read your books more, not just the Bible.

the guy is actually telling you the truth,in the book of Leviticus,Moses commanded that a leper can only the declared clean(healed) by the priest before he is allowed back into the community. Most Christians don't read their bible,they only rely on what their pastors tell them and if it doesn't have to do with prosperity,they ain't interested. Its a big shame.

thinkmoney:

I got to know when I started using the Bible as a metre to judge him
Most importantly, the bible has categorically stated that if any prophet prophecy and it doesn't come through, we should know that they aren't sent from God.
Two, through his teachings. His teaching like many other so-called men of God is cunningly different from the message of the Bible.
Third. Am I suprised then by his power? No. I actually expect such men in this age of ours. The bible has generally said false prophets will come. It also made us know in revelation, that it is the Devil that empowers these men to perform miracles and signs through the figurative two unclean toads.
The purpose is to present a counterfeit religion that leads away from God.
What's their end then? Jesus said also in the bible, that these sort of men will cry out at the judgement and say 'lord lord, in your names we perform miracles and cast out demons' but Jesus will reply them and say 'get away from me into damnation for I know you not. '

By what Authority or power are you explaining the mysteries in the word of God? By human intellect, indoctrination or what you were taught by humans? You need to ask the Holy spirit to give you understanding. And I advice you to listen to his message the more, and see his works. He's the most practical Christian leader I av seen in my entire Christian life.

I believe if you're a truly spiritual man, you'd have more spiritual insight than these mental ideas you profess

Scatterscatter:


Miracles happen to those who believe and you can't hope for what you don't believe in.

if I don't believe it, will I say I need it?

Bahddo:
it's the God-given Mosaic law, man. Lepers in Bible times aren't allowed to live among others and are usually stigmatized. They also had to call out while on the road so others don't come close to them.

Before a leper is accepted back into society, they have to be pronounced clean by the priest. That's why Jesus always asked healed lepers to go to the priest.

This isn't something anyone should even be arguing. You don't read your Bible.

No waste your time,the guy can never understand, na I receive kind of Christian. Tell them to read thier bible,they won't agree.

Scatterscatter:


Thanks for taking out time to type this.

Talking about prophecies not coming to pass, I don't think there is any man of God alive that has gotten all his prophecies right, 100% of the time. Does that mean there is no true man of God on earth?

Then about his sermons, all I've heard him preach about is: Righteousness, peace & love. Have you ever heard him speak evil of all the people that speak ill of him, including "so called men of God"
To the best of my knowledge, he is the most humble pastor of his caliber that I've seen "from afar"
Don't forget the Bible says "by their fruits, we Shall know them"

About miracles, I believe in miracles but i'm not a fan of miracles and I don't use it to judge a pastor's stand in Christ because even the devil can create miracle illusions.

Based on these stated above, I'm yet to see what makes him a fake man of God.

I have gotten three points from this, which I like to point out for you to ponder on.
1. The question of if there is no man of God alive Now, I will leave it for you to search. But I will help u. Have you heard the word of Solomon that said out of a thousand men, I scarcely see a righteous man? These men of God you know, put them together if they are up to a thousand. People worshipping God my brother are very few. And know that the true prophets of God in the bible have all their prophecies fulfilled (only Jonah, and it was because those people repented. God then, clarified everything. The prophecy to start with was conditional. The ninevites got smart and chose to repent. Eventually they backslided and the destruction came upon them.
NOOOOO prophecy of/from God can go without being fulfilled. So if you see prophets failing this criteria, no matter there credential, do away with sentiments and discard them. Thinking God can fail sometimes is degrading him to the level of humans. You might be insinuating he isn't all powerful enough to make every prophecies come through.
2. All religions preach a version of peace, 'righteousness '(which means right standing), and love. Does that make them all acceptable to God? Some pastor even think it's a message of love to abort a child so to spare the child and/or mother to of some challenges. But does that really make that 'love' God's kind of love?
3. About his humility. Let me show you what the Bible say again. It says the minister of darkness keep appearing like (note; not almost like oh, but like) the minister of light. The bible also mentioned wolves in sheep's clothing. Iike counterfeit money, it will take grace, expertise and real effort to recognize these fake christianities.
Please I just want you to start thinking and finding answers. There are answers.

stanat:
the guy is actually telling you the truth,in the book of Leviticus,Moses commanded that a leper can only the declared clean(healed) by the priest before he is allowed back into the community. Most Christians don't read their bible,they only rely on what their pastors tell them and if it doesn't have to do with prosperity,they ain't interested. Its a big shame.

So you think the leper is ignorant of the law?

Anyways, because you jumped into this without knowing the root, I'll spare you but it's a shame still that you didn't look before leaping.

stanat:

No waste your time,the guy can never understand, na I receive kind of Christian. Tell them to read thier bible,they won't agree.

yeah... Many don't bother reading the Bible, they don't even believe what it says unless their pastor tells them it's okay. Sad situation.

AdeniyiA:


By what Authority or power are you explaining the mysteries in the word of God? By human intellect, indoctrination or what you were taught by humans? You need to ask the Holy spirit to give you understanding. And I advice you to listen to his message the more, and see his works. He's the most practical Christian leader I av seen in my entire Christian life.

I believe if you're a truly spiritual man, you'd have more spiritual insight than these mental ideas you profess

Calm down friend. I havent proffesed any mental ideas, but ONLY Bible ideas. Point out any of those my about three points which isn't Bible based.
Now my dear, I interpret all spirit by the word of God not interpreting the word of God by any spirit. This is what the apostles enjoined. They told us to subject all utterances /spirits to the word of God. If you think this assertion is also mental idea, ask and I will drop the Bible passage.

Scatterscatter:


So you think the leper is ignorant of the law?

Anyways, because you jumped into this without knowing the root, I'll spare you but it's a shame still that you didn't look before leaping.

poor ignorant soul. You think every Jew kept a copy of the Mosaic law in their homes the way we have copies of the Bible today?

Many only got to read/listen from the Torah (first 5 books of the old testament) in the Synagogue on the sabbath day. Would a leper be allowed anywhere near such a gathering?

Go look up the term 'Amhaarets' and what it means. The men educated in the law (Scribes, Pharisees etc) used that derogatory term to describe the common man in their day for not being knowledgeable about the law.

It's not out of place for Jesus to tell these neglected people he had just healed what to do next so they can fit back into society. Jesus was wise, try to be like him.

419!

thinkmoney:

I have gotten three points from this, which I like to point out for you to ponder on.
1. The question of if there is no man of God alive Now, I will leave it for you to search. But I will help u. Have you heard the word of Solomon that said out of a thousand men, I scarcely see a righteous man? These men of God you know, put them together if they are up to a thousand. People worshipping God my brother are very few. And know that the true prophets of God in the bible have all their prophecies fulfilled (only Jonah, and it was because those people repented. God then, clarified everything. The prophecy to start with was conditional. The ninevites got smart and chose to repent. Eventually they backslided and the destruction came upon them.
NOOOOO prophecy of/from God can go without being fulfilled. So if you see prophets failing this criteria, no matter there credential, do away with sentiments and discard them. Thinking God can fail sometimes is degrading him to the level of humans. You might be insinuating he isn't all powerful enough to make every prophecies come through.
2. All religions preach a version of peace, 'righteousness '(which means right standing), and love. Does that make them all acceptable to God? Some pastor even think it's a message of love to abort a child so to spare the child and/or mother to of some challenges. But does that really make that 'love' God's kind of love?
3. About his humility. Let me show you what the Bible say again. It says the minister of darkness keep appearing like (note; not almost like oh, but like) the minister of light. The bible also mentioned wolves in sheep's clothing. Iike counterfeit money, it will take grace, expertise and real effort to recognize these fake christianities.
Please I just want you to start thinking and finding answers. There are answers.

Good!

Going by this, I feel it is safe to say no pastor can pass the humility test because no human can see the heart of man.

Then about his messages, take out time to listen to some of his sermons before you conclude. Listen bro, "Goodnews is Goodnews, even to bad people"
One question you should ask yourself is, does his message of love, faith, Holyness & peace contradict the Bible's standard?

Back to prophecy and in as much as I don't want to mention names, but going by your explanation, is it safe to say the likes of Pastor Adeboye & Bishop Oyedepo are fake men of God?

Scatterscatter:


Good!

Going by this, I feel it is safe to say no pastor can pass the humility test because no human can see the heart of man.

Then about his messages, take out time to listen to some of his sermons before you conclude. Listen bro, "Goodnews is Goodnews, even to bad people"
One question you should ask yourself is, does his message of love, faith, Holyness & peace contradict the Bible's standard?

Back to prophecy and in as much as I don't want to mention names, but going by your explanation, is it safe to say the likes of Pastor Adeboye & Bishop Oyedepo are fake men of God?

My brother, I can't over emphasize the need to go back and reanalyse every thing with the Bible, to the extend you start sounding to even mainstream Christians as mad. That's how the first century Christians sounded. They challenge deeply sitted ideas and believes.
Now study John 17:3, where it says 'this is life, there taking in knowledge of you God and of Jesus you sent.' I told you I have studied TB Joshua (we have exchanged words. He has touched me). Now you have to think, has TB joshua really introduced Gods personality and Jesus message to you? If you think he has, briefly introduce God as you would introduce your father if I ask you to?
Good news isn't good news. Like mainstream Christians today, the Pharisees and sadducees religion that Judaism came from was the popular religion in Christ time, but Jesus rejected it entirely.
About Pastor Adeboye and others, I will vehemently encourage you to 'obey God rather than men', and 'let all men be found a lier and God true'. If they have failed the Bibles criteria, discard them. Simple.
Look how many of our so-called men of God world over, was shamed as to predicting coronavirus, despite their end of the year packaged prophecies. They all failed to see the most important event of the year. This is not God's failure, this is mens failure, the shame is to them. God blinded all of them as he promised in the bible.
See this event and realise its God's work. Be courageous and respond appropriately. Few message and warning of God can be clearer than the one coronavirus revealed!!!

Bahddo:
poor ignorant soul. You think every Jew kept a copy of the Mosaic law in their homes the way we have copies of the Bible today?

Many only got to read/listen from the Torah (first 5 books of the old testament) in the Synagogue on the sabbath day. Would a leper be allowed anywhere near such a gathering?

Go look up the term 'Amhaarets' and what it means. The men educated in the law (Scribes, Pharisees etc) used that derogatory term to describe the common man in their day for not being knowledgeable about the law.

It's not out of place for Jesus to tell these neglected people he had just healed what to do next so they can fit back into society. Jesus was wise, try to be like him.

#Don't leave me wise man!!!

Anyways, like I said earlier, I don't blame you. But so you know, the discussion got the point you jumped in because someone said televising miracle program is show off.

The Bible from OT to NT describes and documents how powerful God is. If he wanted His works to be coded, he wouldn't have permitted the Bible.

Jesus asking the leper to go to the priests is to show them the mighty work of God because they would definitely ask him how he got healed.

Mind you, the law was in place for over 2000years before Jesus came and you can't tell me a leper won't know what he's supposed to do to be reintegrated back to the society.

Scatterscatter:


#Don't leave me wise man!!!

Anyways, like I said earlier, I don't blame you. But so you know, the discussion got the point you jumped in because someone said televising miracle program is show off.

The Bible from OT to NT describes and documents how powerful God is. If he wanted His works to be coded, he wouldn't have permitted the Bible.

Jesus asking the leper to go to the priests is to show them the mighty work of God because they would definitely ask him how he got healed.

Mind you, the law was in place for over 2000years before Jesus came and you can't tell me a leper won't know what he's supposed to do to be reintegrated back to the society.

I don't care about your other arguments. I just wanted to correct the wrong opinion that Jesus asked the leper to go to the priest so Jesus can be advertised. That's a very ignorant opinion. It's sad that you'd still stick to it despite evidence to the contrary from the same Bible you claim to believe and respect.

Jesus healed many sick persons, don't you wonder why it was only lepers that were asked to go to the priest?

The only healed person Jesus told to speak about his works was the demon-possessed of the Gerasenes, and that was because the people asked Jesus to leave their territory because they were afraid and so he couldn't preach there. Many were ordered not to tell anyone about his miracles, although they hardly ever obeyed.

Stop trying to make Jesus seem like an spotlight-loving attention seeker just so you can defend your pastors. They are nothing like Jesus.

thinkmoney:

My brother, I can't over emphasize the need to go back and reanalyse every thing with the Bible, to the extend you start sounding to even mainstream Christians as mad. That's how the first century Christians sounded. They challenge deeply sitted ideas and believes.
Now study John 17:3, where it says 'this is life, there taking in knowledge of you God and of Jesus you sent.' I told you I have studied TB Joshua (we have exchanged words. He has touched me). Now you have to think, has TB joshua really introduced Gods personality and Jesus message to you? If you think he has, briefly introduce God as you would introduce your father if I ask you to?
Good news isn't good news. Like mainstream Christians today, the Pharisees and sadducees religion that Judaism came from was the popular religion in Christ time, but Jesus rejected it entirely.
About Pastor Adeboye and others, I will vehemently encourage you to 'obey God rather than men', and 'let all men be found a lier and God true'. If they have failed the Bibles criteria, discard them. Simple.
Look how many of our so-called men of God world over, was shamed as to predicting coronavirus, despite their end of the year packaged prophecies. They all failed to see the most important event of the year. This is not God's failure, this is mens failure, the shame is to them. God blinded all of them as he promised in the bible.
See this event and realise its God's work. Be courageous and respond appropriately. Few message and warning of God can be clearer than the one coronavirus revealed!!!

I'm glad you mentioned you know TB well, maybe you were once his member, I don't know, but it shows you once had a relationship with him which I've never.

Just to be clear, I can never vouch for any "man of God" I only know Jesus and Him alone.

I took this route to be sure of the angle that you are attacking him from & like I said earlier, I am a logical thinker.

Now that we can establish that we can't tell who a true man of God is by simply watching them live, preach, prophesy & perform miracles, do you think it is fair criticism for the body of Christ to elevate (real) some pastors and relegate (fake) some simply because of their approach & understanding of their ministry?
For example, calling Pst Biodun of COZA fake simply because of his flamboyant lifestyle? (just for the sake of this discussion)

Scatterscatter:


I'm glad you mentioned you know TB well, maybe you were once his member, I don't know, but it shows you once had a relationship with him which I've never.

Just to be clear, I can never vouch for any "man of God" I only know Jesus and Him alone.

I took this route to be sure of the angle that you are attacking him from & like I said earlier, I am a logical thinker.

Now that we can establish that we can't tell who a true man of God is by simply watching them live, preach, prophesy & perform miracles, do you think it is fair criticism for the body of Christ to elevate (real) some pastors and relegate (fake) some simply because of their approach & understanding of their ministry?
For example, calling Pst Biodun of COZA fake simply because of his flamboyant lifestyle? (just for the sake of this discussion)

I don't know pst Biodun. But there are too many 'cloud of witnesses,' accusing him of gross immorality. Note, those my quoted words are from the bible. We leave him to God.
But my friend, I tell you you can identify a true man of God. You can achieve this not by Comparing pastors with pastor, necessarily analysing them by their attire or evaluating them by their deeds but you can recognise them by the qualities(fruits) the bible said they will show. Example of this qualities are:
-Do they really show God's personality and attributes (Now, I may start offending you. But I want to believe you are not the only one seeing this my responses. And I rather make God happy) Keeping inline with this point, if you see any pastor or congregation preach Trinity or as much equate Jesus with God, cancel them. God is the first and most important revelation in the bible. If you get that wrong, then your premise that you build all other believes on is already wrong.
-i have disregarded pastor like Oyankhilome for his take on abortion.
- God's movement or church must be universal in that, somehow, you will see it having people of different races in it.
- the pastors that is acceptable to God won't like glory from men, or accord to themselves lofty titles. Jesus said no spiritual leader should be called father. He even cautioned the person that called him 'good' and said its only God that is good. (note, that here like in many places, he differentiated himself from God, contrary to what trinitarians would have us believe.
-their words will be consistent with their lifestyles. You won't see them preach chastity and go on having children out of wedlock or divorcing about. When they do this terribly things, you might remain a Christian, but should cease leading the flock of God. The bible said he that desire an office of bishopric must be a husband of one wife and must be one that has a model family (note, that the word bishop isn't to be carried as a title. No apostles where called bishop. The word actually means 'minister', one that precedes over and help manage the congregation of God.
-You must see an acceptable congregation of God have active love amongst themselves.

Scatterscatter:
For those calling TB Joshua fake, please tell me how much he paid Angel Gomez to act this

Take it or leave it, "there is natural and there is supernatural"

TB Joshua is fake as fvck. He doesn't need to pay him. Just a little manipulation will do. Especially if the victim respects him. He is fake.

thinkmoney:

I don't know pst Biodun. But there are too many 'cloud of witnesses,' accusing him of gross immorality. Note, those my quoted words are from the bible. We leave him to God.
But my friend, I tell you you can identify a true man of God. You can achieve this not by Comparing pastors with pastor, necessarily analysing them by their attire or evaluating them by their deeds but you can recognise them by the qualities(fruits) the bible said they will show. Example of this qualities are:
-Do they really show God's personality and attributes (Now, I may start offending you. But I want to believe you are not the only one seeing this my responses. And I rather make God happy) Keeping inline with this point, if you see any pastor or congregation preach Trinity or as much equate Jesus with God, cancel them. God is the first and most important revelation in the bible. If you get that wrong, then your premise that you build all other believes on is already wrong.
-i have disregarded pastor like Oyankhilome for his take on abortion.
- God's movement or church must be universal in that, somehow, you will see it having people of different races in it.
- the pastors that is acceptable to God won't like glory from men, or accord to themselves lofty titles. Jesus said no spiritual leader should be called father. He even cautioned the person that called him 'good' and said its only God that is good. (note, that here like in many places, he differentiated himself from God, contrary to what trinitarians would have us believe.
-their words will be consistent with their lifestyles. You won't see them preach chastity and go on having children out of wedlock or divorcing about. When they do this terribly things, you might remain a Christian, but should cease leading the flock of God. The bible said he that desire an office of bishopric must be a husband of one wife and must be one that has a model family (note, that the word bishop isn't to be carried as a title. No apostles where called bishop. The word actually means 'minister', one that precedes over and help manage the congregation of God.
-You must see an acceptable congregation of God have active love amongst themselves.

Nah brother, I can't be offended because we are simply having a discussion, not arguing.

You mentioned something that struck me though, are you saying the part of the Bible where Jesus said "He and the Father are One and the part where he said Whoever has seen Him has seen the Father " is a lie?

Recall the Bible also said "in the beginning was the Word (Jesus) and the Word was with God and the Word was God. The Word (Jesus) became Flesh and he dwell amongst men... Are you also saying it's not true.

What about the fact that Jesus is the creator of all things as stated in the Bible "God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him" what's your take on this too?

As regards titles, I frown against it with the whole of my being.

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YorubaKinging:
The most respected FALSE PROPHET of this generation

Even Jesus always tells those who he healed NOT to tell it to anybody


But this man always broadcast himself to the world
Even when he went to the mountains, he did a live broadcast

Your time is near

BUT WHY ARE YOU SAYING THESE ABOUT A MAN OF GOD, JUST because YOU GUYS CANNOT EXPLAIN HOW GOD IS USING HIM?

thinkmoney:

See no doubt he has powers. I have studied him e'en from close. He has supernatural power. But, from my study of him and the Bible, I have also come to know 99.99% that the source of his power is not God. He sadly might not know this himself

Really?
Can you please share with us the litmust test you used in ascertaining this 'fact'?

Scatterscatter:


Nah brother, I can't be offended because we are simply having a discussion, not arguing.

You mentioned something that struck me though, are you saying the part of the Bible where Jesus said "He and the Father are One and the part where he said Whoever has seen Him has seen the Father " is a lie?

Recall the Bible also said "in the beginning was the Word (Jesus) and the Word was with God and the Word was God. The Word (Jesus) became Flesh and he dwell amongst men... Are you also saying it's not true.

What about the fact that Jesus is the creator of all things as stated in the Bible "God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him" what's your take on this too?


As regards titles, I frown against it with the whole of my being.

Thank you my friend for your mindset.
You have raised three points here and interestingly, you have unwittingly dealt with one of them.
-the first. We can understand what Jesus meant when he said, 'I and the father are one,' in John 10:30, by looking at another place in that same book of John where he said something very similar. It was in his prayer to God when his death was close( note, Jesus consistently and reverentially beseech God in prayer) in John 17:11-27 thereabout.Now let's go to the context of that prayer. He ask God to make his disciples one just as he and God are one. Is that not telling you that he was praying that they be united just as he his united with God? If you continue reading, you will come to another place where he ask that he doesn't only pray that the desciples should be one but that also all those listening to them and having faith in their words (us included) be one, just as him and God are one. Was he here suggesting they become one entity-the disciples and all believers-like trinitarian doctrine says Jesus and God is? Of course not. Now lets go back to that very John 10 where the word was spoken; if you continue reading till I think verse 22, you will come across a part that says "... even though you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may come to know and may continue knowing that the Father is in union with me and I am in union with the Father.” I believe this point is clear now.
-the second point. About the word (Jesus) being God. If you read Bible translations that really tries to interpret the bible the way it is, you will see that they write that portion in ways like this; 'and the word was with the God and the word was a god,' 'and the word was with God and the word was divine', or 'and the word was with God and the word was godlike', this translation are more consistent with the original Greek sentence (please make your research). The point here is that, the bible has made us understand there are many Gods. The meaning of God-elohim in Hebrew, Alaha in Armariac and Theos in Greece-is powerful ones or divine ones, it denotes people that have influence spiritually, hence, Pharisees and Jewish religious leaders were called gods in the bible, demons and Satan were also called gods, angels were called gods and Jesus was called god. Isaiah in his prophecy refer to Jesus as 'the mighty god,' but there is one God 'ALMIGHTY,' which is Yahweh.
With this knowledge, now read again the bible passage of John 1:1. You will see that Jesus was just being describe as having a divine substance like God. This should not confuse us as he is the son of God.
-now to the third, which I said you have unwittingly dealt with. Yes, everything was created by Jesus, but like you noted when you said 'everything was created THROUGH him', God, use him to create everything. This is attested to in proverbs 8. There we see Jesus, who was poetically represented as Wisdom, (in a New Testament passage, Jesus is rightly describe as 'the power and wisdom of God' 1 Corinthians 1:24), said that he was by God in the beginning a 'master worker.' God created him and gave him the power to create all other things. He was God's chief construction officer. This fact is alluded to in many books of the Bible. Here is one example, in 1 Corinthians 15:27,28. 27For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone."
*Do you know that Jesus himself said things like 'the Father is greater than me' and that 'it's the Father that sent him?' there is the one sent and the sender. At a place he even said he doesn't know the exact time of the conclusion of this system of things, but that only God knows. That means there are knowledge that is the exclusive of God the Father! Can this be, if they are same, equal beings like the trinitarians would have us believe?
He even, rebuked the devil at his temptation when devil ask him to worship him(can you imagine devil asking Yahweh to worship him?!), Jesus told him that he is not allowed to worship anybody but God! GBAAM!!!.
my dear, God is loving. Understanding his word doesn't take any esoteric skills or possession of some spirit, it just takes a willing, humble and courageous mind. A mind that is courageous enough to ask questions and dispel age long held myths and misconceptions when it finds answers. A mind that is courageous enough to go against the mainstream. God blesses such a mind, because he sees all of us and he is all powerful, almighty.

Pelecius:

Really?
Can you please share with us the litmust test you used in ascertaining this 'fact'?

Thank you, I have been doing that all day. I am not versed on nairaland, but if there is any way you can see my several posts in reaction to that my post, you will see that I have been showing people how I arrived at that conclusion. Please if you find them and they make sense, help me repost them.

Scatterscatter:


Your argument is pointless as your claim is baseless and a mare hearsay. Come back when you have a proof.

PS: I'm a logical thinker and not a religious folk.

It appears pointless because you are uninformed.
Go online and educate yourself on TB Joshua's antics and join the conversation with some knowledge behind you.
Dont be a lazy indomie youth

YorubaKinging:
The most respected FALSE PROPHET of this generation

Even Jesus always tells those who he healed NOT to tell it to anybody


But this man always broadcast himself to the world
Even when he went to the mountains, he did a live broadcast

Your time is near

as an agent of Satan u are, even if he didn't broadcast it, u won't still believe him. I've seen ur type on several occasions

YorubaKinging:
The most respected FALSE PROPHET of this generation

Even Jesus always tells those who he healed NOT to tell it to anybody


But this man always broadcast himself to the world
Even when he went to the mountains, he did a live broadcast

Your time is near

Do not lie against Jesus.

thinkmoney:

Thank you my friend for your mindset.
You have raised three points here and interestingly, you have unwittingly dealt with one of them.
-the first. We can understand what Jesus meant when he said, 'I and the father are one,' in John 10:30, by looking at another place in that same book of John where he said something very similar. It was in his prayer to God when his death was close( note, Jesus consistently and reverentially beseech God in prayer) in John 17:11-27 thereabout.Now let's go to the context of that prayer. He ask God to make his disciples one just as he and God are one. Is that not telling you that he was praying that they be united just as he his united with God? If you continue reading, you will come to another place where he ask that he doesn't only pray that the desciples should be one but that also all those listening to them and having faith in their words (us included) be one, just as him and God are one. Was he here suggesting they become one entity-the disciples and all believers-like trinitarian doctrine says Jesus and God is? Of course not. Now lets go back to that very John 10 where the word was spoken; if you continue reading till I think verse 22, you will come across a part that says "... even though you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may come to know and may continue knowing that the Father is in union with me and I am in union with the Father.” I believe this point is clear now.
-the second point. About the word (Jesus) being God. If you read Bible translations that really tries to interpret the bible the way it is, you will see that they write that portion in ways like this; 'and the word was with the God and the word was a god,' 'and the word was with God and the word was divine', or 'and the word was with God and the word was godlike', this translation are more consistent with the original Greek sentence (please make your research). The point here is that, the bible has made us understand there are many Gods. The meaning of God-elohim in Hebrew, Alaha in Armariac and Theos in Greece-is powerful ones or divine ones, it denotes people that have influence spiritually, hence, Pharisees and Jewish religious leaders were called gods in the bible, demons and Satan were also called gods, angels were called gods and Jesus was called god. Isaiah in his prophecy refer to Jesus as 'the mighty god,' but there is one God 'ALMIGHTY,' which is Yahweh.
With this knowledge, now read again the bible passage of John 1:1. You will see that Jesus was just being describe as having a divine substance like God. This should not confuse us as he is the son of God.
-now to the third, which I said you have unwittingly dealt with. Yes, everything was created by Jesus, but like you noted when you said 'everything was created THROUGH him', God, use him to create everything. This is attested to in proverbs 8. There we see Jesus, who was poetically represented as Wisdom, (in a New Testament passage, Jesus is rightly describe as 'the power and wisdom of God' 1 Corinthians 1:24), said that he was by God in the beginning a 'master worker.' God created him and gave him the power to create all other things. He was God's chief construction officer. This fact is alluded to in many books of the Bible. Here is one example, in 1 Corinthians 15:27,28. 27For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone."
*Do you know that Jesus himself said things like 'the Father is greater than me' and that 'it's the Father that sent him?' there is the one sent and the sender. At a place he even said he doesn't know the exact time of the conclusion of this system of things, but that only God knows. That means there are knowledge that is the exclusive of God the Father! Can this be, if they are same, equal beings like the trinitarians would have us believe?
He even, rebuked the devil at his temptation when devil ask him to worship him(can you imagine devil asking Yahweh to worship him?!), Jesus told him that he is not allowed to worship anybody but God! GBAAM!!!.
my dear, God is loving. Understanding his word doesn't take any esoteric skills or possession of some spirit, it just takes a willing, humble and courageous mind. A mind that is courageous enough to ask questions and dispel age long held myths and misconceptions when it finds answers. A mind that is courageous enough to go against the mainstream. God blesses such a mind, because he sees all of us and he is all powerful, almighty.

I like your analogy and well detailed explanation

But does it then make it a sin to equate Jesus with God? Will God hold answers to our prayers if we do? Will it stop "trintarians" from going to heaven? (these are honest & sincere questions)

My own understanding of the trinity can be explained thus:

We have God almighty operating in 3 different dimensions
God Head - YAHWEY
God in flesh (Son) - Jesus
God in Spirit - (Holy Spirit)

These 3 personalities operate as one indivisible entity even though they manifest in certain ways to achieve the same goal.

God Head can't relate physically to man because he operates as a Spirit. Even Moses couldn't see HIS face because the glory would have killed him. Whenever we see a physical representation of GOD in the Bible it is always Jesus. Jesus is the WORD of GOD and the same way your voice represents you is the same way Jesus is to God. The same way your voice recording can be used to either incriminate or justify you even without you being physically present is the same way Jesus (the Word) is to the God Head. The WORD (Jesus) became flesh is saying God Head made his Word tangible, something humans can feel & touch, so it won't always be a booming voice or thunder or fire. All these is to redeem man back to Himself and maintain a father to son relationship with man, he wanted man to know it is possible.

When Jesus said He & the Father are one should explain it all. The same way you can't deny your voice on tape is the same way God can't be separated from Jesus. Jesus was simply God in flesh.

God in Spirit - (Holy Spirit) is God giving man direct access to Him without any barrier. It's like a Sim card in a phone, it gives us the ability to establish a communion with God whereby we can hear him in our Spirit. The Holy Spirit is like the network provider, if the reception is bad, it will be difficult or impossible to have any form of communication with each other. God has released His spirit upon everyone that is willing to accept His Word (Jesus) which is Him (God Almighty)

The dispensation of God's manifestation :

In the Old Testament, we saw more of the manifestation of God Head (YAHWEY)

In the New Testament, we saw God Head (YAHWEY) manifest in flesh (JESUS)

Now we are in the dispensation of the God Head (YAHWEY) manifest in the Spirit (HOLY SPIRIT) Remember God promised to pour His Spirit on man in the end of days.

Don't forget God said He honors His Word more than His name.

With this, I don't think giving God's Word the same preference as God Himself is wrong.

Scatterscatter:


I like your analogy and well detailed explanation

But does it then make it a sin to equate Jesus with God? Will God hold answers to our prayers if we do? Will it stop "trintarians" from going to heaven? (these are honest & sincere questions)

My own understanding of the trinity can be explained thus:

We have God almighty operating in 3 different dimensions
God Head - YAHWEY
God in flesh (Son) - Jesus
God in Spirit - (Holy Spirit)

These 3 personalities operate as one indivisible entity even though they manifest in certain ways to achieve the same goal.

God Head can't relate physically to man because he operates as a Spirit. Even Moses couldn't see HIS face because the glory would have killed him. Whenever we see a physical representation of GOD in the Bible it is always Jesus. Jesus is the WORD of GOD and the same way your voice represents you is the same way Jesus is to God. The same way your voice recording can be used to either incriminate or justify you even without you being physically present is the same way Jesus (the Word) is to the God Head. The WORD (Jesus) became flesh is saying God Head made his Word tangible, something humans can feel & touch, so it won't always be a booming voice or thunder or fire. All these is to redeem man back to Himself and maintain a father to son relationship with man, he wanted man to know it is possible.

When Jesus said He & the Father are one should explain it all. The same way you can't deny your voice on tape is the same way God can't be separated from Jesus. Jesus was simply God in flesh.

God in Spirit - (Holy Spirit) is God giving man direct access to Him without any barrier. It's like a Sim card in a phone, it gives us the ability to establish a communion with God whereby we can hear him in our Spirit. The Holy Spirit is like the network provider, if the reception is bad, it will be difficult or impossible to have any form of communication with each other. God has released His spirit upon everyone that is willing to accept His Word (Jesus) which is Him (God Almighty)

The dispensation of God's manifestation :

In the Old Testament, we saw more of the manifestation of God Head (YAHWEY)

In the New Testament, we saw God Head (YAHWEY) manifest in flesh (JESUS)

Now we are in the dispensation of the God Head (YAHWEY) manifest in the Spirit (HOLY SPIRIT) Remember God promised to pour His Spirit on man in the end of days.

Don't forget God said He honors His Word more than His name.

With this, I don't think giving God's Word the same preference as God Himself is wrong.

Thank you my dear for your exhaustive response.
To answer the three questions in your first para; it's a terrible sin to equate Jesus with God. It's the sin of blasphemy and its similar to what we have in our law court today as treason. Ancient Israelite do not take kindly to that type of offence. It's what Absalom tried to do against David his father. It's what Satan too tried to do against God. It's what the Jewish leader in Jesus time accused Jesus of doing, and they showed their aversion for it by ripping their garments in public.
What does Yahweh himself have to say; he said 'I am Yahweh, thou shalt not have any other God beside me', he said in another place that 'he is a jealous God,' and in another place he said 'he will not share is glory with anyone.
What was Jesus attitude to equating himself to God? Jesus was said to have submitted himself to God even to the point of death. At another place, it was said he didn't consider usurping the authority of God but became like a man.
People believing in a Trinity doctrine - a word or idea that wasn't mentioned in the bible- can't expect to be accepted by God and they can't also expect God to look favourably on their prayers. Remember where it's said in the bible 'that they pray but don't get answer because they pray amiss. '
Many believing this doctrine are like Paul before he became a Christian. He so much had knowledge and zeal for God. He thought the Pharisee religion was acceptable to God. Unknown to him, it is an adulterated religion that God had rejected. The bible said of those kind of people as 'having zeal for God but not according to an accurate knowledge. '
You still referred to when Jesus said that him and his father are one. But the context around that statement never support the supposition that Jesus was an inseparable entity from God, it only talks about unity. Remember he also in that same statement ask that God make his disciples and every believer that kind of 'one's. Does it mean he is saying they should mysteriously become an inseparable entity? Let's discard long held sentimental misconception so room can be created for truth.
Now, in all of mankind ages and different dispensations, it has always been made clear that God is different from his son Jesus. At Genesis in the very beginning, God talked to another person that they should make man in their image. David talked about God and his son. David also talked about his lord sitting at the right handside of Yahweh. Proverb 8, spoke allegorically of Jesus and it said Jesus was created by God in the beginning and was at the beginning a 'master worker beside God.' Jesus when here on earth prayed to God and made it clear that he was from God and he will return to God. Shortly after Christ departure, Steven at the point of death saw a vision of Jesus sitted at the righthanside of God in heaven (different entity), the apostles too on different occasions attested to this fact. The book of Corinthians made us know that Jesus was the first of all creation, this is consistent with the pervasive truth in the bible that Jesus was created by God. At revelation, we saw him figuratively presenting the value of his ransom sacrifice to God at his throne as a slain lamp.
I have gone from Genesis to Revelation. Jesus has always be shown to be different from God, in his preearth, earthly and postearth(heaven) existence. When he was leaving the earth, he told his followers that he was 'going to his father, their father and his God their God.'
Jesus is said to be God's word because he had God's message for the world. He was to God like Aaron was to Moses, a spokesman. It's true that God from time immemorial at different places do send him as a representative. But anybody sent his to all intent and purpose of different entity and different authority to the sender.
Let's be careful of what the Bible has termed 'artfully crafted doctrine'. 'Doctrine of men.' 'Doctrine of Demons '.
The purpose of this very doctrine is to muddle up the identity of God and not make people understand God. If you can't understand somebody, you can't really have a close relationship with that person.

thinkmoney:

Thank you, I have been doing that all day. I am not versed on nairaland, but if there is any way you can see my several posts in reaction to that my post, you will see that I have been showing people how I arrived at that conclusion. Please if you find them and they make sense, help me repost them.

Yeah! Sorry, I didn't read all the post before but I've done that now.

I just have little problem with how you used 100% accuracy of prophecy as one of such litmus test. I want you to know that even Biblical prophecies have to be extracted from a whole group of words to make sense sometimes. Psalms 22 is a good example. Attributing the whole chapter to Jesus won't make sense but he fulfilled a good part of it.
The time of the coming of the Messiah was misunderstood because number of years was read as number of weeks in the book of Daniel. Chapter 9 vs 22; even KJV also translated it as weeks and it was fulfilled in years.
There are many prophecies we believe are yet to be fulfilled because we do not see 100% of the contents before our eyes, but I'm afraid
That our understanding of those texts may be wrong and won't make us get the prophetic texts correctly just as how the timing of the Messiah was missed.

What's my point? Getting revelation from God is one thing and receiving/interpreting it flawlessly is another thing. Those that have dreams as source of revelation can relate. I believe it can be traced to the fact that we are still impaired by the effect of the fall. If you look at most of those 'failed' prophecies, they have details that are still 100% fulfilled but critics emphasizes on other parts (which I want to believe may be due to bad interpretation) that don't come to pass.

Then I came across your view/attack on Trinity. The problem is that the Bible cannot be successfully invoked to support you. The very first chapter of the Bible used some interesting words. Elohim itself is a plural form of Eloha and God was not described as the latter. Again, it says "...Let US create man in OUR image..." The next verse said "and Elohim created man... in His image He created him; male and female he created Them" (emphasis are mine).
Note that the bible used plural for plural Elohim and then used singular pronoun for plural Elohim. It then used same thing for man he created, using him and them for man.
Move further to Chapter 19 vs 24 where it says Yahweh reigned fire from Yahweh out of heaven. It sounds absurd like saying Nigerian president ordered the military from the Nigerian president, but that is what we have.
The Jewish creed - Shema says that Yahweh is one but the one is not a single unity, it is a composite unity. The type used for union of man and woman.
As someone pointed above that Jesus is the Word (Creator) which implies that he wasn't created which is a definition of who the word 'God' is. I don't want to go on to explain how God is not a single person but one being of three persons cos of time but I hope you'll study the Bible again and see how it explains it

Peace

thinkmoney:

Thank you my dear for your exhaustive response.
To answer the three questions in your first para; it's a terrible sin to equate Jesus with God. It's the sin of blasphemy and its similar to what we have in our law court today as treason. Ancient Israelite do not take kindly to that type of offence. It's what Absalom tried to do against David his father. It's what Satan too tried to do against God. It's what the Jewish leader in Jesus time accused Jesus of doing, and they showed their aversion for it by ripping their garments in public.
What does Yahweh himself have to say; he said 'I am Yahweh, thou shalt not have any other God beside me', he said in another place that 'he is a jealous God,' and in another place he said 'he will not share is glory with anyone.
What was Jesus attitude to equating himself to God? Jesus was said to have submitted himself to God even to the point of death. At another place, it was said he didn't consider usurping the authority of God but became like a man.
People believing in a Trinity doctrine - a word or idea that wasn't mentioned in the bible- can't expect to be accepted by God and they can't also expect God to look favourably on their prayers. Remember where it's said in the bible 'that they pray but don't get answer because they pray amiss. '
Many believing this doctrine are like Paul before he became a Christian. He so much had knowledge and zeal for God. He thought the Pharisee religion was acceptable to God. Unknown to him, it is an adulterated religion that God had rejected. The bible said of those kind of people as 'having zeal for God but not according to an accurate knowledge. '
You still referred to when Jesus said that him and his father are one. But the context around that statement never support the supposition that Jesus was an inseparable entity from God, it only talks about unity. Remember he also in that same statement ask that God make his disciples and every believer that kind of 'one's. Does it mean he is saying they should mysteriously become an inseparable entity? Let's discard long held sentimental misconception so room can be created for truth.
Now, in all of mankind ages and different dispensations, it has always been made clear that God is different from his son Jesus. At Genesis in the very beginning, God talked to another person that they should make man in their image. David talked about God and his son. David also talked about his lord sitting at the right handside of Yahweh. Proverb 8, spoke allegorically of Jesus and it said Jesus was created by God in the beginning and was at the beginning a 'master worker beside God.' Jesus when here on earth prayed to God and made it clear that he was from God and he will return to God. Shortly after Christ departure, Steven at the point of death saw a vision of Jesus sitted at the righthanside of God in heaven (different entity), the apostles too on different occasions attested to this fact. The book of Corinthians made us know that Jesus was the first of all creation, this is consistent with the pervasive truth in the bible that Jesus was created by God. At revelation, we saw him figuratively presenting the value of his ransom sacrifice to God at his throne as a slain lamp.
I have gone from Genesis to Revelation. Jesus has always be shown to be different from God, in his preearth, earthly and postearth(heaven) existence. When he was leaving the earth, he told his followers that he was 'going to his father, their father and his God their God.'
Jesus is said to be God's word because he had God's message for the world. He was to God like Aaron was to Moses, a spokesman. It's true that God from time immemorial at different places do send him as a representative. But anybody sent his to all intent and purpose of different entity and different authority to the sender.
Let's be careful of what the Bible has termed 'artfully crafted doctrine'. 'Doctrine of men.' 'Doctrine of Demons '.
The purpose of this very doctrine is to muddle up the identity of God and not make people understand God. If you can't understand somebody, you can't really have a close relationship with that person.

I understand your point

But do you think it is wrong to respect the word of someone in authority?
Also, does honoring the person's word show any sign of disrespect to the person?

I'm of the opinion that God Almighty isn't bothered that Trinitarians have such concept because if it were so, he wouldn't have given Jesus power over everything in Heaven & on earth, also, He wouldn't have made Jesus so great that you need the name of Jesus to even request anything from Him (GOD).

The Bible even says at the mention of the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow, both in Heaven & on Earth. God would have maintained His superiority by retaining "His own name"

God Almighty isn't in a power tussle with Jesus or Holy Spirit neither are Trinitarians elevating Jesus above God (Yahweh) because eventually, they direct all their prayers to God (Yahweh) and only go through the name of Jesus as directed in the Bible.

I think saying the concept of trinity is wrong is more like the overzealous actions of the Pharisees & Saducees that wanted to kill Jesus simply because they felt He was trying to equate Himself to God. Do you honestly think they would have been able to comprehend if Jesus had told them "He is God". They wouldn't have understood because you need the Holy Spirit to understand the deeper concept of the things of God and His operations. The Holy Spirit is the only only that can make us to truly know God and understand His intent for our lives. Remember the disciples didn't even know who Jesus really was while He was with them on earth until He ascended and the Holy Spirit came upon them. Only then did the true revelation of Jesus hit them.

In the beginning, when the spirit of God moved on the face of the deep, who do you think moved, Yahweh? No, it was the Holy Spirit! The Word(Jesus) made everything and without Him was noting made but who spoke the Word? Yahweh! Now you see why Jesus didn't bow when when Satan tempted Him by saying he'll give him all the kingdoms of the earth. How do you expect the creator of all things to bow to get what He created with His own hands!

When God said "let us make man in our own image, who do you think he was having a discussion with? Yahweh was in a discussion with His entirety! How do I know this, Man is the only creation of God that is a Spirit, has a Soul and lives in a body. Humans were never created to be Spirits only, that's why we'll all ascend to Heaven the same way Jesus ascended, in bodily (spirit, soul & body) form but this time, the saints will rise in an incorruptible body like Jesus and we'll all be like that forever.

I think what we should be bothered about is the fact the name of God (Yahweh) is being gradually removed from the Bible and it is a serious cause for concern because most people don't even know the name of God.

Scatterscatter:


I understand your point

But do you think it is wrong to respect the word of someone in authority?
Also, does honoring the person's word show any sign of disrespect to the person?

I'm of the opinion that God Almighty isn't bothered that Trinitarians have such concept because if it were so, he wouldn't have given Jesus power over everything in Heaven & on earth, also, He wouldn't have made Jesus so great that you need the name of Jesus to even request anything from Him (GOD).

The Bible even says at the mention of the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow, both in Heaven & on Earth. God would have maintained His superiority by retaining "His own name"

God Almighty isn't in a power tussle with Jesus or Holy Spirit neither are Trinitarians elevating Jesus above God (Yahweh) because eventually, they direct all their prayers to God (Yahweh) and only go through the name of Jesus as directed in the Bible.

I think saying the concept of trinity is wrong is more like the overzealous actions of the Pharisees & Saducees that wanted to kill Jesus simply because they felt He was trying to equate Himself to God. Do you honestly think they would have been able to comprehend if Jesus had told them "He is God". They wouldn't have understood because you need the Holy Spirit to understand the deeper concept of the things of God and His operations. The Holy Spirit is the only only that can make us to truly know God and understand His intent for our lives. Remember the disciples didn't even know who Jesus really was while He was with them on earth until He ascended and the Holy Spirit came upon them. Only then did the true revelation of Jesus hit them.

In the beginning, when the spirit of God moved on the face of the deep, who do you think moved, Yahweh? No, it was the Holy Spirit! The Word(Jesus) made everything and without Him was noting made but who spoke the Word? Yahweh! Now you see why Jesus didn't bow when when Satan tempted Him by saying he'll give him all the kingdoms of the earth. How do you expect the creator of all things to bow to get what He created with His own hands!

When God said "let us make man in our own image, who do you think he was having a discussion with? Yahweh was in a discussion with His entirety! How do I know this, Man is the only creation of God that is a Spirit, has a Soul and lives in a body. Humans were never created to be Spirits only, that's why we'll all ascend to Heaven the same way Jesus ascended, in bodily (spirit, soul & body) form but this time, the saints will rise in an incorruptible body like Jesus and we'll all be like that forever.

I think what we should be bothered about is the fact the name of God (Yahweh) is being gradually removed from the Bible and it is a serious cause for concern because most people don't even know the name of God.

I am glad I can quickly reply you on this; there is another friend here that I haven't had the time to reply yet.
See my friend, the best way to take the bible is to take just what it has shown us. There was no idea of Trinity in the bible. Contrary to what you infer, the apostles got to know who Christ was very well at about the time he was leaving this earth, that is why Jesus asked them who they really think he is because people in general taught he was just some prophets; then the disciples answered SIMPLY 'you are the Messiah, the SON of God.' Jesus really commended them for this their answer.
I cant overemphasize it to you that it is gravely dangerous to add or deduct even a dot from the bible.
God glorified Jesus for doing well with his assignment here on earth, that is why the bible said he was elevated in position and given 'a name that is above any other name.' This elevation may mean he was given some office and work that he didnt have before(we can imagine one of this privilege is that its through him that we now get salvation. It wasn't that way before). So, the same Bible that said he was given everything, has also told us that he is definitely under the person that gave him everything. In effect Gods name is still more honourable than his, however true to only doing what the Bible ask us to do, we should only pray through his NAME to GOD.
The bible shows us God doesn't like us equating him with anything on earth or in even-anything includes Jesus. Don't lets go beyond the bible, we will unwittingly mess up with everything.
One sad thing many people are getting wrong from going outside the bible, is one thing you have MENTIONED-SOUL. Soul in the bible is not something in us that survives us. Soul is us. Living things, animals and man were referred to as souls in the bible. Example is in Ezekiel that says, every soul that sinneth shall die. In another place of the Bible we were told that 8souls went into the ark. Animals were called souls.