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Stats: 2,527,347 members, 5,787,435 topics. Date: Thursday, 13 August 2020 at 12:50 PM
Atheist Could You Tell What Your Understanding Of God Is / What Is Your Understanding Of Animal Witchcraft / Logical Understanding Of Trinity (elohim) - Establishing The Doctrine Of Godhead (2) (3) (4)
|Re: What Is Your Understanding Of Sabbath? by Kobojunkie: 5:24pm On Jul 27|
ictplotter:can you maybe list a couple of ideas forwarded by Paul you believe contradict Jesus Christs own teaching please?
|Re: What Is Your Understanding Of Sabbath? by DeOTR: 7:52pm On Jul 27|
Kobojunkie:The above are purely your personal opinions, not biblical.
Colossians 2:14 "blotting out the handwriting of ordinance....NAILING IT TO THE CROSS".
We all know that the ten commandments is the law of God. If you disagree, support your argument with a Bible verse, not your words.
Yes, Jesus didn't observe the Sabbath the Pharisee way, but the most important thing is that he did observe it the way he wants us to be observing it.
Should we starve or ignore accident victims on a Sabbath? No! That's the message Christ is passing here, not that we should stop observing the Sabbath. So don't get it twisted.
The tablet may have been then, but what we have today is the book of the law of Moses and the 10 commandments which were given as part of the Old covenant which came to the people through Moses.Again, an opinion rid of Scriptural evidence. It's written that the 10 commandments was written on two tablets of stones by God's finger and here you are telling me otherwise. It was and will never be a part of any other law. Are you sure you're even a Christian? Even little Children knows this fact.
James is not Jesus Christ and certainly not the definition of the New Covenant that is the Jesus Christ. God sent His own word to tell us what to obey, it is His word that should matter more to you, since He, Jesus Christ is your only teacher.And you are what? That I should believe your unbiblical claims against that of James, someone that has a direct contact with Jesus Christ?
Read James 2:8-11 and tell me the law he mentioned is not the ten commandments. Do well to explain why he's quote from the commandments.
The book of revelation is not the word of Jesus Christ but the recordings of John, the apostles, dream sequences. I suggest you do not take literally that which is sourced from a dream.Well, I advise you to read Revelation 1:1-2 for your enlightenment.
|Re: What Is Your Understanding Of Sabbath? by ictplotter(m): 10:11pm On Jul 27|
Kobojunkie:THIS IS JESUS TEACHING ABOUT THE LAW OF MOSES.
Mathew 5 vs 17Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. 18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.…
PAUL TEACHING ABOUT THE LAW.
Romans 3vs19, Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
JESUS TEACHING REGARD THE POSITION OF WOMEN IN CHRISTIANITY
LUKE 10vs38 As Jesus and his disciples were on their way, he came to a village where a woman named Martha opened her home to him. 39 She had a sister called Mary, who sat at the Lord’s feet listening to what he said. 40 But Martha was distracted by all the preparations that had to be made. She came to him and asked, “Lord, don’t you care that my sister has left me to do the work by myself? Tell her to help me!”41 “Martha, Martha,” the Lord answered, “you are worried and upset about many things, 42 but few things are needed—or indeed only one.[f] Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her.”
PAUL TEACHING REGARD THE POSITION OF WOMEN IN CHRISTIANITY.
1cor 14vs34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
In short the majority of Paul's teaching, contradict Jesus teaching.
|Re: What Is Your Understanding Of Sabbath? by Raymondfayowole(m): 2:03am On Jul 28|
See as u just shot yourself in the foot. u r saying 2 different thing entirely. Jesus Christ preached about the fulfillment of the law in mk 1:14-15 and it was foretold before time in Jer. 31:31-34. If you then read the book of Heb. 8:6-13 you can how the new covenant is confirmed there. The bible referred the old law as a shadow of the good things to come, meaning it was nt the real thing and saying "fulfilling something does not means it's stopped" is like saying I promised you something and I fulfilled my promise but you are still saying there's still agreement btw us. i think u need a better understanding of that passage very well nd d word fulfillment.
I see you need a better understanding of the items of worship and the word church. in Acts 2:42, the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch and the last verse in that chapter used the word church meaning the church was never the physical building but ppl with likeminds. It was stated clearly in the bible that the came together on the first day of week to break bread (lord supper), give, and admonish one another. Those are the core items of worship. (Teaching, lords supper, giving, praying and singing). pls read, acts 20:7, 1cor 16:1-2.
The Sabath day is no longer binding on Christians. Jesus Christ fulfilled the old law wen he died on the cross. pls read your bible very well for better understanding. its so much that i cant type evrythin.
|Re: What Is Your Understanding Of Sabbath? by Kobojunkie: 5:07am On Jul 28|
DeOTR:I think I have already given you enough of 'scriptural evidence' for what I have said so far. If you really want to know what Jesus Christ said, you would settle down and read the gospels for your own self rather than spewing what you have gotten from so-called pastors and MOGs out there.
|Re: What Is Your Understanding Of Sabbath? by Kobojunkie: 5:17am On Jul 28|
ictplotter:I think you misconstrue what he, Paul, said here.
ictplotter:This is one of the many places where I assume that Paul may not have in fact said what is written there. But that is me cause I find it hard to believe that Jesus Christ would send out a man to deceive billions in His name.
|Re: What Is Your Understanding Of Sabbath? by ictplotter(m): 6:51am On Jul 28|
Kobojunkie:I don't explanation, my question is can you be truthful enough that, there is big different between Jesus and Paul teaching. In the above biblical verse mentioned. Or do you need more biblical verse as evident.
|Re: What Is Your Understanding Of Sabbath? by Kobojunkie: 6:57am On Jul 28|
ictplotter:There are several differences quite alright, but are you confident that Paul was indeed a fraud? Where does this confidence of yours come from?
|Re: What Is Your Understanding Of Sabbath? by ictplotter(m): 7:21am On Jul 28|
Kobojunkie:Thanks for being truthful about the differences between Jesus and Paul teaching.
Paul is a scam, go check his biography. He was so desperate to be famous, that why at his early stage, he first declared himself as the 13th disciple of Jesus. This is same man who never see or meet Jesus physically or any of Jesus disciples while on earth. When it was clear to himself, that the gullible people will not believe the 13th disciple scam. He now tagged himself "Apostle ".
John the Baptist, prophesied the coming and the great work of Jesus Christ. How come Jesus didn't prophesized or mention anything about the coming of Paul, who will play such a vital role in Christianity, neither any of his disciples did. Paul's epistles were base on his shallow opinion and not from God. Remember this is same paul , who studied law in the higher institute and have have a teacher and mentor called Gamael.
|Re: What Is Your Understanding Of Sabbath? by Kobojunkie: 7:29am On Jul 28|
ictplotter:Where did you get this biography from?
ictplotter:But Paul was technically an "apostle", as he was one of many in the first century.
ictplotter:Wait a second... Paul was not a prophet, nor was he any different from the disciples or even followers of Jesus Christ of our time. All Followers of Jesus Christ are equal as we are all servants of God.
That said, the so-called vital role that Paul is assumed to have played was cooked up in the minds of men for most all of the apostles were sent out to preach the gospel to the gentiles as well (I assume that is what you meant by vital role). Paul, however, is the only one whose letters to the believers he served, we supposedly have copies of, and that is what makes his case more significant.
|Re: What Is Your Understanding Of Sabbath? by ictplotter(m): 7:41am On Jul 28|
Kobojunkie:Paul was educated by Gamaliel, one of the premier teachers of the jewish Law in the first century. Gamaliel taught between A.D. 22-55.
Pls go research about criminal called Paul, who have scammed more than a billion Christians with his selfish epistles, hiding under the pillar of Jesus Christ, who he contradict his teaching.
|Re: What Is Your Understanding Of Sabbath? by Kobojunkie: 8:36am On Jul 28|
ictplotter:I will research him in a bit here, using Gamaliel's story as my reference to see if I can find anything contrary to what is documented in the Bible. So you believe in Jesus Christ? Do you have a church or group you fellowship with?
|Re: What Is Your Understanding Of Sabbath? by DeOTR: 9:22am On Jul 28|
Jesus fulfilled the ten commandments so now it's stopped existing and it's ok to kill, steal, worship idols, etc?
That's the implication.
Mark 1:14-15: Jesus was talking about the fulfillment of a prophecy, not the law.
Jer. 31:31: I'd advise you to read the verse 33. God was promising to write the law in people's heart, the same law you wished never existed.
Please, explain how the ten commandments is the shadow of anything? We all know the passover feast, for example, points to the sacrifice of Jesus.
Acts 20:7: This was after the days of unleavened bread (verse 6). Paul was preaching at a farewell meeting, not on sunday morning, but on saturday night (to the Jews, a day starts at sunset, so this was saturday night).
Acts 20:11... "When they had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of the day(sunday morning) , Paul departed".
I wonder how having meal and discussing with your brethen over night now a church service.
|Re: What Is Your Understanding Of Sabbath? by DeOTR: 9:44am On Jul 28|
You're the one echoing the popular opinion about the ten commandments, and the fourth commandment in particular. And the last time I checked, Bible don't go with popular opinions.
In an attempt to sound convincing, you even called the Revelation of Jesus, which He gave to His servant John, a sequence of dreams, and not from Jesus. Is that what your Bible told you?
You even discredited the book of James which clearly encourage us to keep the whole law and went on to quote the ten commandments to clear your doubt about which law he was referring to.
|Re: What Is Your Understanding Of Sabbath? by Kobojunkie: 9:56am On Jul 28|
DeOTR:I don't know of any popular opinion about the 10 commandments, and the fourth command. What I know is what Jesus Christ said of the Old Covenant and the New Covenant which He brought to us, a new Yoke(about 46 statutes vs 613 statutes of the old Covenant) and a burden that is easy.
DeOTR:The entirety of the book of revelation is in fact a recording of a dream/vision that John had while imprisoned on the Island of pathmos. John never called on believers to apply a literal interpretation to his dream. So do not now assume you are the sane one for suggesting it ought to be read so.
DeOTR:You supplied the reference to the book of James. I simply explained to you that James in fact spoke there of the law as in the New Covenant laws given by Jesus Christ, the perfect law, and not the Old Covenant law. James called on all followers of Christ to obey the commandments(about 46 of them) given by Jesus Christ, the New Covenant that His followers live by.
|Re: What Is Your Understanding Of Sabbath? by ictplotter(m): 10:19am On Jul 28|
Kobojunkie:Sure I believe in Jesus Christ, outside of the rubbish and fallacy Paul wrote about him.
|Re: What Is Your Understanding Of Sabbath? by Raymondfayowole(m): 11:21am On Jul 28|
That is worship. Preaching, breaking of bread (Lords supper), giving, singing and prayer are the items of worship. acts 20:7, 1cor 16:1-2
If we go deep into the law of sabbath, u will knw nobody is practising half of it...we all see it as a day of rest nd it's just more than that.
|Re: What Is Your Understanding Of Sabbath? by Raymondfayowole(m): 12:45pm On Jul 28|
pls read matt 22: 36-40, I'll advise u read it carefully for better understanding. if you love your God wit all your heart, soul nd mind, u wont do all you just listed above. That is the greatest commandment. Love your God and love your neighbor as yourself.
You just shot yourself in the foot again. I agree he was preaching about the fulfillment of a prophecy and what was that prophecy. Read Jer 31:31-33 again. The keywords I will bring out from that bible passage are:
1. A new convenant
2. Not according to the convenant that I made with their fathers.....
3. But this is the convenant that I will make with you.....( Nd which convenant is that? go back to no 1)
there are 300+ prophecies about concerning the Christ found in the Law and the Prophets and his purpose was to fulfill them. Few examples are deut. 18:15, 18-19
The new law will be different in the sense that it will be written in their heart not like the old law that was written on stone tablets. So please read your bible carefully with understanding.
Don't get it wrong, the passover feast was to celebrate how the Israelites were freed from slavery in Egypt. Remember the story nw..angel of destruction wherever he sees the blood, he'll passover that house. Jesus Christ instituted the Lord's supper from the passover feast. They are two different things. Read matt 26:17-30
The Passover was a Jewish feast, observed annually - Deut 16:1-8
The Lord's supper is for Christians, observed every first day of the week. Acts 20:7. Mind you breaking of bread is same as Lord's supper. 1cor 10:16
Pls refer to my previous post for items of worship, you'll get a better understanding of my point. It's important you read all the bible passage with understanding.
|Re: What Is Your Understanding Of Sabbath? by CHIDOHSKI: 2:06pm On Jul 28|
Kobojunkie:Both old and new testament centered on Jesus Christ. It is impossible to separate both when it comes salvation of men . Jesus has been from the beginning John 1:1 He is the Lord of the Sabbath not of Sunday. Mark 2:28 Read your Bible stop preaching commandments giving by men
|Re: What Is Your Understanding Of Sabbath? by Kobojunkie: 3:44pm On Jul 28|
CHIDOHSKI:Jesus Christ may have 'been from the beginning' but it is a lie to claim that the Old and New Testament center around the character of Jesus Christ... I call that the doctrine of bullsheet and was probably tossed out of someone who pretends scripture is 'specially interpretated"' or something as inane as that.
The commandments I posted have nothing to do with men but are the words of Jesus Christ Himself. If you do not even know to Obey the commandments of Jesus Christ...if you were not even aware of His bringing to you a new covenant all this while, pray tell, what makes you think you have indeed been serving Him all this while?
These commandments(about 46 of them too - the yoke Jesus spoke of) have been with men for 2000 years now. Why have you not know of this before now?
|Re: What Is Your Understanding Of Sabbath? by DeOTR: 7:25pm On Jul 29|
The first and second commandments mentioned by Jesus in Matt. 22:37-38 are actually not part of any law in the Bible, they are simply the summary of the 10 commandments, which is centered on loving God and your fellow man (Matt. 22:40)
*How do you show you love God?
1. By serving no other gods (Ex. 20:3)
2. By not making, serving or worshipping any graven image. (Ex. 20:4-5).
3. By not taking the name of the Lord God in vain. (Ex. 20:7).
4. By remembering the sabbath to keep it holy (Ex. 20:.
*How do you show you love your fellow man?
1. By honoring your parents. (Ex. 20:12).
2. By not committing murder (Ex. 20:13).
3. By not stealing (Ex. 20:15).
4. By not committing adultery (Ex. 20:14).
5. By not bearing false witness (Ex. 20:16).
6. By not coveting (Ex. 20:17).
If you break any of the 10 commandments, you're either committing sin against God or your fellow human.
That's why Jesus said in the verse 40 that all the law hangs on loving God and your fellow man.
|Re: What Is Your Understanding Of Sabbath? by DeOTR: 8:05pm On Jul 29|
RaymondfayowoleTake note of the wordings of Jer. 31:31..."But this shall be the new covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says the Lord, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS..."
The new covenant is not talking about a new set of law, it's the same law written on stone tablets that would be written in our hearts, not on stone.
The verse says "MY LAW", not "my new law".
It's different covenants, same law, different form by which it's written.
The Passover was a jewish feast observed annuallyYes, it's also a pointer to Christ as our passover Lamb.
The feast signifies salvation by substitution. It involves killing an unblemished male lamb.
It's not a coincidence that Jesus was killed on the passover day?
The passover and the likes are shadows of the sacrifice of Christ.
|Re: What Is Your Understanding Of Sabbath? by DeOTR: 8:42pm On Jul 29|
RaymondfaywoleWhy associating breaking of bread with communion? In biblical times, breaking bread was done at every meal and was an expression used for any meal. Matt. 15:36 is an example of Jesus giving thanks and breaking bread to feed the multitude.
Acts 27:34-36 is another example that shows that at every meal, they "give thanks" and "broke the bread". In this instance, it was clear that this was just a normal meal to gain strength for survival (Ship was going to sink).
Moreover, days end at sunset and the new day begins afterward (Gen. 1:5, Deut. 23:32). So what call saturday evening would actually be the start of the first day. That's why it's possible for Paul to continue his speech until midnight (Acts 20:7).
Every single scripture in the New Testament showing whatsoever in the Church are all on the Sabbath (Acts 13:14, 13:42-44, 17:1-2, 18:1). These are facts from the Bible and no interpretations needed. Make sure you go through each.
|Re: What Is Your Understanding Of Sabbath? by Raymondfayowole(m): 12:53pm On Jul 30|
This is simple english, don't twist the bible to fit your point. Reading and understanding is very important here.
Firstly, what do you understand by the word "new" and "convenant". I'll advise you check the meaning. It's very important in understanding the point here.
Secondly, you argue "it's different covenants,
So you're twisting it to fit your point, everything else is different apart from the law. Open your mind and understand what you're reading. Matt 5:18
Please understand that the Mosaic law is also God's law that is why Jesus Christ preached that he did not come to destroy it but to fulfill it. The new convenant was confirmed in Heb 8:6-13. V13 says the first convenant is obsolete. What do you understand by the word "obsolete"?.
Let me give you 1 example to comprehend the point. Do you know that in His sacrificial death, Jesus fulfilled the ceremonial laws? If you don't know, ask me and I'll explain.
So you agree the passover and the like are shadows. So I will ask you a simple question. Why do you follow the shadow when you have the real thing with you?
|Re: What Is Your Understanding Of Sabbath? by Raymondfayowole(m): 1:18pm On Jul 30|
We are getting somewhere. We both agree that these two commands summed up what the Old Law required of the Israelites and on these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." Mt 22:40
The simple answer is this: "Love is the fulfilling of the Law." - Ro 13:9
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
|Re: What Is Your Understanding Of Sabbath? by DeOTR: 2:07pm On Jul 31|
RaymondfayowoleThat's exactly what Jesus was saying in Matt. 22:37-40. Please read Ex. 20:3-17. The ten commandments only deals with moral concepts, that is, love and relationship with God and man. You can't be breaking the 1st-4th laws and claim to love God, neither can you claim to love your neighbor is you're not keeping the 5th-10th laws. This is because, these laws are meant to guide our actions.
While the ten commandments defines what's wrong and right, ceremonial laws prescribes offerings for sin (according to 1 John 3:4, sin is breaking any of the ten commandments).
Yes, Jesus fulfilled the ceremonial laws -that has been my stand-, but not the moral laws.
They are different in the sense that, the ten commandments are written by God's on stone -a sign of immutability- (Ex. 31:18) and placed inside the Ark of covenant (Deut. 10:5), while the ceremonial laws are written in a book (Ex. 24:3) and kept outside the Ark (Deut. 31:26).
|Re: What Is Your Understanding Of Sabbath? by DeOTR: 2:53pm On Jul 31|
RaymondfayowoleJer. 31:31-33 is indeed, clear enough and should not be misunderstood.
Jer. 31:31 features God promising a new covenant.
You can't take this verse in isolation and interprete to mean a new set of laws. Our God is not a God of confusion. He will never leave us in the dark. He actually mentioned the new covenant.
Jer. 31:33 "...but this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says the Lord,...(wait for it)... I will put MY LAW in their inward parts and write it in their hearts;..."
Take note of the words in all block letters. Those who originally received this prophecy know the law God is taking about here.
There was a mention of a new covenant, but never a new law.
Verse 34 explains the essence of the new covenant (writing the law in our hearts)
|Re: What Is Your Understanding Of Sabbath? by Raymondfayowole(m): 9:10am On Aug 01|
I see the problem now. Let's go back to the basics. Law and convenant.
Did you know that the law of moses was given for a particular purpose, to shape and mold the people of Israel into a Holy nation. Exodus.19:1-9.
The law was also not to change the promises made to Abraham. The Law which came 430 years later, cannot annul the covenant confirmed by God. Gal 3:15-17
The law was also added because of transgression. Gal 3:19
Till the Seed (Christ) should come to whom the promise was made, not against the promise, but it could not provide life.
The law was a tutor to lead them to Christ, Now that faith (Christ) has come, they are no longer under it. Gal 3:24-25. I'll advise you read the whole of Gal 3
It came to an end when nailed to the cross. Col 2:14-17;
V15. Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
Jews converted to Christ have died to the law. Ro 7:1-6. This is one of the best bible passage explaining we are no longer under the law of old testament.
As a result, it was replaced with a new covenant. He 7:18; 8:13; 9:9-10; 10:9
I've listed out vital points for you to ponder upon. It is very important you go through the bible passages above. I will definitely knw if you don't.
|Re: What Is Your Understanding Of Sabbath? by DeOTR: 10:18pm On Aug 01|
RaymondfayowoleIt's unfortunate you're seeing a set of law written by God's own fingers as law of Moses. Even after I showed you the clear difference?
I'll show you that even the verses you quoted are not talking about the ten commandments.
1 John 3:4b "...sin is the transgression of the law (the ten commandments)"
I've mentioned it here that the ceremonial law was added as a remedy for sin (breaking the moral laws). If the law in Gal. 3:19 includes the moral laws, it couldn't have been added because of sin, because there's no sin in the first place if there's no moral guide. Notice the word "added"? That means there's an existing law in place.
I'm disagreeing with you only only the basis that the ten commandments should be thrown away with the ceremonial law.
I'll keep the commandments of God (the 10 commandments) and the faith of Jesus (Rev. 14:12)...
|Re: What Is Your Understanding Of Sabbath? by DeOTR: 11:26pm On Aug 01|
RaymondfayowolePlease, take note of the word in all cap., "ORDINANCES".
Col. 2:20-21 "...why, as though living in the world, are you subject to ORDINANCES, (Touch not; taste not; handle not;...)It should be clear to you now that the law (ordinances) observance Paul mentioned here are those customs that identify one as a Jew (circumcision, dietery restriction (don't eat this, don't drink that) and ceremonial regulations (sacrifices, offerings, feasts, etc)).
The ten commandments has nothing to do with meat or drink or holidays like passover or penticost (which is the sabbaths being referred to in verse 16).
|Re: What Is Your Understanding Of Sabbath? by Raymondfayowole(m): 1:17am On Aug 02|
You see how you just keep going in circles without a valid point and I will keep giving you the same bible passages to beat your point. Stop being myopic and understand what you read.
You quoted col 2:16 but failed to quote v17. I bring it up here for you.
So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,
which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
Do you think there's distinction when it comes to obeying the word of God. All the laws are equal as part of Israel's covenant with God. Read Deut. 28. I will bring out the first verse for you.
“Now it shall come to pass, if you diligently obey the voice of the Lord your God, to observe carefully all His commandments which I command you today, that the Lord your God will set you high above all nations of the earth.
For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Look at v.18...one jot or one title...just imagine what that bible passage is saying...all the law will be fulfilled down to the smallest alphabet.
Argue with bible passage and stop twisting the bible.
|Re: What Is Your Understanding Of Sabbath? by Raymondfayowole(m): 1:48am On Aug 02|
I will try my best to explain it better to you.
The Law of Moses or the Law that was communicated through Moses contained “Statutes”, “Judgements” and “Commandments.
The Ten Commandments served as God’s Constitution for Israel, while the “Common Law” or the Law of the Land that governs Israel. The “Common Law”(Law of Moses) explained how the Children of Israel should live, worship and obey God, so that they would not be breaking the “Constitution”(Ten Commandments) on which it was built.
Read my previous post explaining how all the law gas been fulfilled.
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