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Bible Questions-1; Did The Bible Endorse Slavery? by preselect(m): 3:06pm On Feb 10, 2011
Please bible scholars and experts I need some education here. How did the bible view slavery. I'm trying to do some study onthis but it seems I ain't making much progress.
Re: Bible Questions-1; Did The Bible Endorse Slavery? by JeSoul(f): 3:51pm On Feb 10, 2011
Is this Prez in the religion section?  shocked smiley

The bible does not exactly 'endorse' slavery, but it certainly did permit it and instituted standards by which slave owners should treat their slaves. Here's a quick summary quote from CARM (Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, a fantastic website (along with apologeticspress.org) by the way if you're looking for quality christian apologetics on practically any subject)

http://carm.org/slavery
Slavery was permitted in the Bible because of sin in the world.  It existed before the Jews were formed as a nation and it existed after Israel was conquered.  God allows many things to happen in the world such as storms, famine, murder, etc.  Slavery, like divorce, is not preferred by God.  Instead, it is allowed.  Where many nations treated their slaves very badly, the Bible gave many rights and privileges to slaves.  So, even though it isn't the best way to deal with people, because God has allowed man freedom, slavery then exists.  God instructed the Israelites to treat them properly.

The Bible acknowledged the slave's status as the property of the master (Ex. 21:23; Lev. 25:46).
The Bible restricted the master's power over the slave. Ex. 21:20).
The slave was a member of the master's household (Lev. 22:11).
The slave was required to rest on the Sabbath (Exodus 20:10; Deut. 5:14).
The slave was required to participate in religious observances (Gen. 17:13; Exodus 12:44; Lev. 22:11).
The Bible prohibited extradition of slaves and granted them asylum (Deut. 23:16-17).
The servitude of a Hebrew debt-slave was limited to six years (Ex. 21:2; Deut. 15:12).
When a slave was freed, he was to receive gifts that enabled him to survive economically (Deut. 15:14).
The reality of slavery cannot be denied.  "Slave labor played a minor economic role in the ancient Near East, for privately-owned slaves functioned more as domestic servants than as an agricultural or industrial labor force."1

and if you want to get much more detailed, here is ApologeticsPress.org with a long but solid article

http://www.apologeticspress.org/article/1587

Defending the Bible’s Position on Slavery
by  Kyle Butt, M.A.

Through the millennia, some of the worst atrocities perpetrated on humans have been linked to the institution of slavery. Historically, slavery has not designated one particular ethnic group as its singular victim. The Hebrews were slaves to the Egyptians during the days of Moses. During the reign of King David, the Moabites were subjected to slavery (2 Samuel 8:2). Alexander the Great forced almost the entire inhabited world to cower and serve him. Truth be told, practically every nationality of people that exists today could point to a time in its past history when it fell victim to slavery. Hitting closer to home, the pages of history dealing with the formative years of the United States are despoiled with gruesome stories of ships carrying slaves sold to the Americas by their fellow Africans (and others, e.g., Arabians). These slaves frequently were packed so densely in lower ship decks that many of them died of disease or malnutrition. Those who lived to see the States soon learned that their fate hinged upon those who purchased them. Some slaves were ushered into homes with kind masters, decent living facilities, good food, and freedom to worship. Other slaves were purchased by cruel, greedy people who overworked them, abused them, underfed them, and allowed them no freedom.

Friction soon arose between those who wanted to maintain slavery, and those who wanted to outlaw the practice as inhumane and unjust. It can be argued convincingly that the American Civil War was fought primarily over this very issue. Politicians raged on both sides of the matter. Interestingly, so did religious people. Abolitionists, as well as pro-slavery advocates, went to the Bible to marshal arguments for their particular view. Abolitionists armed themselves with verses such as: “Therefore whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them: for this is the Law and the Prophets” (Matthew 7:12); or “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you all are one man in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:28). Religious pro-slavery activists fired impressive scriptural guns by quoting passages such as: “Servants, be submissive to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the harsh” (1 Peter 2:18); and “Servants, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in sincerity of your heart, as to Christ” (Ephesians 6:5). Can we determine with accuracy what the Bible really says on the topic of slavery? Does the Bible condemn it as a social injustice? Does the Bible condone the practice? And how does the Bible’s position on slavery mesh with the idea of a loving God?

For years, skeptics have railed against the written Word, insisting that its pro-slavery tendencies should alert any reader who has a scrap of common sense to the idea that an all-loving God could not have inspired such atrocious material. Morton Smith and R. Joseph Hoffman, in a book titled What the Bible Really Says, commented:

[T]here is no reasonable doubt that the New Testament, like the Old, not only tolerated chattel slavery (the form prevalent in the Greco-Roman world of Paul’s time) but helped to perpetuate it by making the slaves’ obedience to their masters a religious duty. This biblical morality was one of the great handicaps that the emancipation movement in the United States had to overcome. The opponents of abolition had clear biblical evidence on their side when they argued (1989, pp. 145-146, parenthetical item in orig.).

Following a similar line of thinking, Ruth Green wrote that “it was the Old and New Testaments of the Bible that were the authority for keeping humanity in serfdom for centuries and for legitimizing slavery in America, making a bloody civil war necessary to give slaves human rights under our Constitution” (1979, p. 351).

Has the Bible been responsible for the oppression of slaves in the past? No, it has not. In fact, an in-depth look into the biblical account that reveals God’s attitude toward slavery shows just the opposite.

. . .

click this link for the entire article http://www.apologeticspress.org/article/1587
Re: Bible Questions-1; Did The Bible Endorse Slavery? by preselect(m): 4:53pm On Feb 10, 2011
Yes Dear Jesoul, it is me cool

I decided to quit politics section for a while, it was full of quarrelling and hate. I find myself fighting with people I don't even know, people who may, in real life, actually be nice people I'll love to be with. I decided to come to religion section where I may benefit spiritually at least, and improve my bible knowledge. Needless to say, I was also dissappointed. People here are just like politics section, perhaps worse. But I started this reasearch on the bible, sex, slavery, divorce. I'm shocked that slavery was not condemned neither by Moses, nor by Christ. I believe I'm wrong so I needed help. Or is slavery of the bible not the same as the 400 yrs slavery of the USA( for example) which ended in the 19th century.

I'll read your posts and do more research on this issue bc it's worrisome to me. If you have any information about the bible and divorce, sex, domestic violence and democracy pls let me know.

Cheers.
Re: Bible Questions-1; Did The Bible Endorse Slavery? by JeSoul(f): 6:44pm On Feb 10, 2011
pres-elect:

Yes Dear Jesoul, it is me cool

I decided to quit politics section for a while, it was full of quarrelling and hate. I find myself fighting with people I don't even know, people who may, in real life, actually be nice people I'll love to be with. I decided to come to religion section where I may benefit spiritually at least, and improve my bible knowledge. Needless to say, I was also dissappointed. People here are just like politics section, perhaps worse.
  My dear 'quarrelling' and 'fighting' is everywhere on NL lol. It just matters how you approach it and what you take away from it. I personally love sparring with you in the FA section . . . you're such an unrepentant Liberal grin. Don't worry. We'll soon be back. You hear say the constitutionality of Obamacare is going to be the hot topic in the coming months . . . but I digress, this is religion smiley

But I started this reasearch on the bible, sex, slavery, divorce. I'm shocked that slavery was not condemned neither by Moses, nor by Christ. I believe I'm wrong so I needed help. Or is slavery of the bible not the same as the 400 yrs slavery of the USA( for example) which ended in the 19th century.

I'll read your posts and do more research on this issue bc it's worrisome to me. If you have any information about the bible and divorce, sex, domestic violence and democracy pls let me know.

Cheers.
My dear you are not wrong on both counts. As a christian, there is still much in the bible that is 'worrisome' to me as well. On this issue of slavery, I believe the bottom line biblically is this: God permitted it, but it wasn't His ideal. It was part of human culture/tradition, and rather than outright condemn it (which many of us christians wish He did) He chose instead to institute very strict laws and commands on how the Jews (and Christians in the NT) should treat their slaves. One reason for God doing that may be this -

  Another angle to the issue (which you rightly pointed out) that bears considerable weight is that slavery over human history has had different variations. Not all slavery was involuntary or undeserved. For example some were enslaved as punishment for crimes, some because they owed a debt, others willingly sold/submitted themselves into slavery that they may be under the care of a master and then the bad one - those who were forcefully enslaved - like our ancestors.

So in other words, slavery as we understand it in modern times is measurably different from what was in the OT. Keeping this in mind will really help understand (to an extent at least) the context (very important) under which God chose to permit the practice of slavery.

If we look at the laws/commands God gave for the treatment of slaves, we see that the relationship He intended was one of mutual respect and benefit - this is very important. For example in the OT, a slave was part of the family, participating in family events and traditions. The master's power over him/her was limited, a master couldn't just do whatever he pleased with them. And the after a certain amount of years, the slave was to be freed and given/paid enough money/gifts to be able to survive on his own until he had gotten on his feet economically. etc etc 

Personally, and from my limited human understanding, I wish God just said "No" to slavery, but hey, what do I know? He is the one with infinite knowledge, so I can trust He certainly knows what he's doing. Hope all ^that helps. Cheers my dear friend!
Re: Bible Questions-1; Did The Bible Endorse Slavery? by mazaje(m): 8:11pm On Feb 10, 2011
If you want to know wether the bible endorses slavery, all you need to do is take the bible and READ it for yourself. . . .The bible was written back in the days when slavery was accepatable, in fact it was written by very primitive cultures that believe that a man has the right to sell his daughters into slavery. The bible VERY clearly endorses slavery in some parts of it. . . . .Here are some bible passages that very cleary endorse slavery. . . . .Forget all the lies and spin the apologist might add to what was written. . . .

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you.  You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land.  You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.  You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46)

Here we have the bible talking about where to buy slaves, what to do with them and how they are to be held or transfered as property, injunctions were also given that Fellow Jews were never to be treated that way. . . .

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.   But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.  And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter.  If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife.  If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.   (Exodus 21:7-11 )

Here is a verse that talks about how slaves are to be branded like animals. . . .

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years.  Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom.  If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year.  But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him.  If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master.  But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children.  I would rather not go free.'  If he does this, his master must present him before God.  Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl.  After that, the slave will belong to his master forever.  (Exodus 21:2-6)

Slavery is still approved of in the NT as well. . . . .

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5). . .

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 )


I don't think there is any part of the bible that very clearly states that slavery is bad and people should not induldge in it. . . .Thou shall not enslave each other is no where to be found in the ten commandments of Yahweh. . . . .
Re: Bible Questions-1; Did The Bible Endorse Slavery? by JeSoul(f): 8:23pm On Feb 10, 2011
Mazaje, how bodi now? Na Denmark you dey now? I think say Finland we dey always see for your location before. You be journey man?  cheesy

Anyways, thanks for posting that^. It brings to the table the foremost scripture verses antagonists use to argue the bible 'sanctioned' slavery. Lets balance the table shall we? smiley Here's an article that presents a different, contextual take on those same verses (from both sides btw). I already know you disagree smiley but I'm posting for the sake of others that may be interested in what the other side has to say:

  for those interested, I suggest clicking on the link for a better formatted, easier read. Cheers!
http://ryanreeder..com/2009/10/use-of-leviticus-2544-46-in-slavery.html

The Use of Leviticus 25:44-46 in the Slavery Dialogue of the Antebellum Period
by Ryan Reeder

Lev 25: 44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.



It is well known that slavery apologists appealed to the scriptures to justify their position on the legitimacy of slavery. If so, they must have used these verses. In what context(s) were these verses employed? And what was the response of those who were anti-slavery? These verses, which were described as "the strongest passage in the Old Testament in favor of the view" (1) were generally taken at face-value by pro-slavery writers and were usually refuted by their detractors through appeals to etymology and context.

Why were scriptures used to justify slavery? What reasoning did slave apologists use to defend their position? One writer expressed the argument with the following syllogism:

1. Whatever God sanctioned among the Hebrews he sanctioned for all men and at all times.

2. God sanctioned slavery among the Hebrews. Therefore,

3. God sanctioned slavery among all men and at all times. (2)


Following this reasoning, all the pro-slavery writers had to do was to prove that slavery existed in the Bible with divine approval. Many writers used these verses to support this position. William Smith stated "The Jewish Constitution. . .provided for. . .the enslavement. . .of the neighboring heathen in perpetuity." (3) Hopkins declared "the perpetual bondage of the heathen race is too plain for controversy." (4) Rabbi Morris J. Raphall showed that "over these heathen slaves the owner's property was absolute; he could put them to hard labor, to the utmost extent of their physical strength; he could inflict on them any degree of chastisement short of injury to life and limb." (5) And Thornton Stringfellow asked:

if the words of this institution could be more explicit? It is from God himself; it authorizes that people, to whom he had become king and law-giver, to purchase men and women as property; to hold them and their posterity in bondage; and to will them to their children as a possession forever; and more, it allows foreign slaveholders to settle and live among them; to breed slaves and sell them. (6)


However, slavery foes disagreed. Lundy, in a response to Hopkins, claims that an institution's existence does not guarantee its morality: The law also regulated polygamy and divorce; but no one will venture to assert, except a Mohammedan and a Mormon, that polygamy and divorce are Divine institutions. As God at first made only one wife for a man and no slaves, so it was His intention that he should have only one wife and no slaves. (7) In addition, Reuben Hatch claimed that these verses did not constitute a commandment or statute to possess slaves; it was merely a "grant of permission" to have servants. (8

Besides these arguments, an eighteenth century writer pointed out that applying Old Testament slavery to modern times would be like applying other scriptures to "juƒtify Great-Britain[sic] in exterminating the inhabitants of any country ƒhe could overcome." (9) Slavery was not "a new moral precept. . .but for the idolatrous inhabitants of Paleƒtine." (10)

Others pointed out the linguistic problems in the interpretation of the text. Weld showed that the word "forever" applies to the statute and not the term of bondage. He asserts that the word "buy" means that if the neighboring peoples were not willing to sell their people, they could not be purchased. He also shows that the word here translated "bondmen" was the word for servant, used "merely to designate them as the performers of such service." He then claims that if the Israelites actually held slaves, then they should have a word for slave. (11) Hatch confirms Weld's assertions, stating that "Any schoolboy that can read Hebrew, can see this, by examining the passage in the original," (12)

However, Smith disputes this claim, saying that "the attempts which are sometimes made to prove that , of the Septuagint, and servus of the Vulgate version, translated indifferently servant or slave, means only a hired servant, need only to be mentioned to be refuted. (13) He also states as an indisputable fact that slavery existed in Israel. To Weld's "no word for slave" argument he shows that servant is a "generic" form of the word-there are also "hired servants" and "bond servants"-this latter being the equivalent of a slave. (14)

Additionally, Josiah Priest in his work, Bible Defense of Slavery makes the point that the "heathen" and "stranger" mentioned in these verses refers exclusively to Negroes. Since the word "Gentile" is not used in the Torah, the Lord could not be referring to white people. Heathen, then "referred solely to the Canaanites and to their race, the blacks or negroes [sic] in general." (15) Finally, to those who would argue that Leviticus 25:44-46 was not an endorsement of slavery, but merely an inclusion of the practice in the record, Priest points out that the Israelites did not even enter Canaan for nearly forty years after this directive was received. What more evidence is needed that the Lord sanctioned slavery in Israel?

Thus is demonstrated the use of "the strongest passage of the Old Testament in favor of" slavery before slavery was officially abolished. (16) Many points were made in the debate. The American South held human beings in servitude-but so did the ancient children of Israel. It may not have been moral, but it did have divine sanction. However, it is fallacious to assume that the command applied to all people equally with the Israelites. While there may be some hair-splitting over the meaning of certain words in these verses of the Law, the fact remains that these verses showed a future condition of Israel. Of course, with the ratification of the thirteenth amendment to the Constitution in 1865 and the later extinguishing of slavery worldwide, the practicality of this dialogue became a moot issue. But it is informative to note how others in past times and places have used scripture to support their arguments
Re: Bible Questions-1; Did The Bible Endorse Slavery? by mazaje(m): 8:34pm On Feb 10, 2011
JeSoul:

Mazaje, how bodi now? Na Denmark you dey now? I think say Finland we dey always see for your location before. You be journey man?  cheesy

Anyways, thanks for posting that^. It brings to the table the foremost scripture verses antagonists use to argue the bible 'sanctioned' slavery. Lets balance the table shall we? smiley Here's an apologetic rebuttal that presents a different, contextual take on those same verses. I already know you disagree smiley but I'm posting for the sake of others that may be interested in what the other side has to say:

  for those interested, I suggest clicking on the link for a better formatted, easier read. Cheers!

I dey ohh my sister, two days? Wetin dey happen? How is the new year going? May the year be good to us all. . . . .I gas dey move around ohh, man no suppose dey stay for one place all the time, its risky cheesy cheesy. . . .Best wishes. . .Will read up your post when I get home. . .
Re: Bible Questions-1; Did The Bible Endorse Slavery? by JeSoul(f): 9:55pm On Feb 10, 2011
mazaje:

I dey ohh my sister, two days? Wetin dey happen? How is the new year going? May the year be good to us all. . . . .I gas dey move around ohh, man no suppose dey stay for one place all the time, its risky cheesy cheesy. . . .Best wishes. . .Will read up your post when I get home. . .
My brother the year is going jare smiley. Tank you for the wishes. You no fit stay for one place? risky how? do you owe somebody money there? lol. Journey man, may your feet always land on fertile soil, amen oh smiley.

And yes pls read that 'rebuttal' - its actually speaks the opinions of both sides so its a good read. Your input is always and ever fierce and takes no prisoners cheesy. Take care ehn.
Re: Bible Questions-1; Did The Bible Endorse Slavery? by Jenwitemi(m): 10:08pm On Feb 10, 2011
Is there going to be slavery in christian heaven? Are dark skinned people going to be enslaved in christian heaven, while the white skinned ones enjoy all the goodies? After all, the christian god is white while the christian devil is black. That might be taken out on the dark-skins.
Re: Bible Questions-1; Did The Bible Endorse Slavery? by JeSoul(f): 10:18pm On Feb 10, 2011
@Prez, here's an article that you can read to your hearts delight. Gets down and dirty into details on problematic OT verses. Very long and in-depth so brave it at your own risk or benefit smiley
, Does God condone slavery in the Bible? http://christianthinktank.com/qnoslave.html
Re: Bible Questions-1; Did The Bible Endorse Slavery? by InesQor(m): 6:21pm On Feb 11, 2011
Endorse? I haven't seen that.

Permit? Yeah
Re: Bible Questions-1; Did The Bible Endorse Slavery? by Image123(m): 6:35pm On Feb 11, 2011
mazaje, are the witches in finland hunting after you?
Re: Bible Questions-1; Did The Bible Endorse Slavery? by preselect(m): 12:29am On Feb 14, 2011
Dear Jesoul,
I decided to start by researching the history of the bible. I had to stop at a point bc the information I was getting was almost converting me into an atheist. However, I read somewhere, some sound advice urging me not to give up God's word bc of historical issues. Did you know that the Bible had 80 books? All of a sudden, 120 yrs ago, 14 books( know as the apocrypha)dissapeared from the Protestant Bible. No explanation, nobody knew who removed them.

Various translations have come. Majority of the translations were for political or for capitalistic purposes.
Did you know that the King James Version we have today is not exactly the KJV of 1611?
KJV of today was actually produced in the 1770s but they kept calling it 1611 bc that version is more marketable.
Then in the 1880s they removed 14 books from the bible?
Did you know that the catholic church did everything in it's power to suppress the production of the bible?
They also banned the translation of the bible outside Latin?so that they will have a monopoly of the scriptures and then control the entire Christendom.
There are rumors of a new translation that will be more politically correct. Only God knows what they will. Hange to make the bible more politically correct. Will they change the meaning of marriage? Or will they change the meaning of homosexuality? Haa! This research worry o.

Finally, did you know King James himself was Gay?

Well, we worship God, not the bible. The bible is a book but God's word is the living word.

The research continues
Re: Bible Questions-1; Did The Bible Endorse Slavery? by mazaje(m): 10:17pm On Feb 14, 2011
pres-elect:

The research continues

If you want to believe the bible go ahead and do so, researching into its true history will only lead you away from it. When you keep researching you will also discover that most of the books of the bible were written by unknown authors and not the names of the people who bear the authorship we are made to believe for example Moses did not write any of the first five books of the bible. The church ascribed the names to most of the books to give them credibility.When you continue with your research, you will discover that most of the books were written long after the events they recorded, and a lot of the events(like exodus and many others) are non historical other stories like the creation story of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden are were copied from older civilizations. If you want to remain a Christian then you have to abandon your research, else with time you will become an atheist like others that conducted such research and found out the truth for themselves. . . .

1 Like

Re: Bible Questions-1; Did The Bible Endorse Slavery? by JeSoul(f): 10:44pm On Feb 14, 2011
pres-elect:

Dear Jesoul,
I decided to start by researching the history of the bible. I had to stop at a point bc the information I was getting was almost converting me into an atheist.

  I am glad you're doing such extensive research Prez smiley that is good. I am aware of most of what you mentioned. I have only one advice for you, just let the same Holy Spirit of God that convicts your heart of God's existence and of your need for salvation - direct you into all things. Because theories abound, conspiracies aplenty, speculations are endless, opinions will vary, history will be presented from all kinds of angles and perspectives. On what you should and ought to 'logically' believe and whether the bible is accurate etc etc there are a thousand voices and one. There is no scarcity of different ideas on God and Jesus and the bible.

To me personally Prez, whether the bible can or cannot be proven or historically shown to be accurate is now and has always been irrelevant. Which is why a lot of the things you mentioned you found in your research has had zero impact on my belief. Because I did not first believe based on what could be 'proven' or 'verified' or a 'best estimate', so why start now? I believed because I found the word itself to be power, jumping off the pages and becoming real in my own life. That is why I personally still believe it. Not because any researcher or scientist can 'prove' it is legit.

And as you conduct your own search for truth and understanding, I trust you will make up your own mind on what to believe my dear sir smiley Godbless as always.


and btw, I am waiting for you on my Presidents thread cheesy, watch me now, I will soon become his biggest defender on NL grin
Re: Bible Questions-1; Did The Bible Endorse Slavery? by JeSoul(f): 10:58pm On Feb 14, 2011
Also Prez, please read this article posted here in the section by a fella named Krayola. It blessed me immensely and I'm sure it will bless you too.

Faith Is Trusting God, Not Belief In Doctrine https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-590298.0.html

Krayola:

I just read a blog that I thought was kinda interesting. Just want to know what you guys think. Agree? DIsagree? why or why not? Besides some of the claims about "God" which though I don't exactly disagree with, I have some reservations about, I think he makes a lot of sense.

Are you a believer?

Have you ever been asked this question before? Did the question and your search for an answer make you uncomfortable? Did you wonder to yourself what does this question really mean? For me, the answer to all these questions is "yes."

When I was growing up, I often heard the popular refrain in Christianity that to be "saved" all one needed was to have "faith." When asked what "having faith" meant, the reply was typically "believing that Jesus is the son of God." In other words, all we are required to do in order to have eternal life is to believe a certain set of facts about events that occurred over 2,000 years ago, and whatever else we do in our lives (cheating, stealing, murder, etc.) is irrelevant.

I struggled with this issue because logically it didn't make sense to me. Why would an all-powerful God, who created all of existence, care about a single belief we held? Anthropologists would say that for the vast majority of us, our beliefs are culturally conditioned. Is the Hindu raised in India with little exposure to Christianity who lives an exemplary life going to hell because she does not believe what an American who grows up in the Bible-belt is taught from a young age? What happens when an article of faith (for example, that God created the world in 6 days 6,000 years ago) contradicts what we know from other disciplines like science, history, and archaeology?

The more I thought about this issue, the more it seemed that the formula of "believe in the doctrine of XYZ" and "you will be saved" was little more than a carrot and stick approach to encourage people to conform to the doctrine of whatever authority was making the proclamation. The history of politics has shown that this exact strategy has been employed countless times (often to terrible results) by authoritarian regimes to compel conformity and thus solidify the power of the institution.

The modern view of believing in Jesus in order to be saved has its roots in Martin Luther's Reformation which responded to the Catholic practice of selling indulgences (paying the church for salvation) by substituting the doctrine of Justification by Faith as outlined by St. Paul. According to this doctrine, we cannot be saved by our good works because at heart we are all imperfect sinners -- our works will never be good enough for God. We are only saved through our faith in Jesus.

However, as Luther's doctrine has evolved over the centuries, it has been distorted so that "faith" has become synonymous with "belief." What has happened is that a new requirement has been substituted for good works. Making belief a requirement for salvation is just replacing another kind of work -- the mental work of belief in something -- as a condition to salvation. It is trying to bring in through the back door the type of human action and interference in God's salvation that Luther objected to with the Catholic church selling indulgences.

So what is the meaning of Luther's justification by faith? This means simply that we are already saved. We don't have to do anything for our salvation, and this includes believing in a specific doctrine. When we combine this theory with the conception of God (which I have outlined in earlier posts) as the creative power behind all of existence (instead of a supernatural being who judges our actions like Zeus from the top of Olympus), we can begin to understand how we are already part of the infinite and eternal power of being. The "Kingdom of God" is already present and real because it is the basis that underlies all reality. However, we do not realize that we are already saved -- we do not experience this salvation in our day-to-day lives. We live lives in which our egos dominate us and in which we live apart from the ground of reality that is God. Using an analogy from science, we experience only one side of reality -- our bodies and the spaces around us -- but if we were to look at reality at the molecular level, reality looks very different -- what appears solid is actually made up mostly of space and the empty space around us is filled with particles.

The path to salvation thus becomes more like an awakening, an understanding, and an experience of what is already here but we cannot see. The spiritual path (prayer, meditation, fasting, worship, etc.) becomes a mechanism to peal back the onion layers of who we are and what we think the world around us is, so that we can examine the power of God within ourselves, within others, and within existence itself. Salvation is an opening of our eyes and hearts, a new way of seeing the universe.

Faith then is not belief in a certain doctrine about Jesus, but a trust in using him as an example of what it looks like to live a God-centered life. Through the stories in the Gospels (whether or not the details are historical are irrelevant), we can understand the nature of God's presence within the world and what a God-centered life looks like: a life of humility, compassion, love without boundaries, a life which experiences suffering and doubt, but a life that ultimately participates in the eternal power of God that transcends death.

We've all heard the expression "Try it on faith." This doesn't mean, "Believe me" but rather "Trust me, and experience it for yourself." Faith is about testing, questioning, and doubting. In science these qualities lead to greater truths, why shouldn't the same apply to religion? For me, religion is about embracing the unknown and the difficult -- a journey of exploration that never really gets there because ultimately I am finite. Faith is about being comfortable with my doubts because doubt is part of my search for truth. Faith is not a closing of my eyes and mind to the real world, to science, to modern knowledge, or to experience, but it is the opposite: an opening up and a new way of seeing.

Understanding evolves and changes with information; it is open and dynamic. The history of science shows us that whatever our beliefs and theories are today, they will probably be proved wrong over time, and we will then adapt our theories to the new information. Yet in religion we often hold onto cherished beliefs in the face of contrary facts. I think we should borrow from the model of science and allow our religious beliefs to evolve with time as well. But we should be cognizant of the difference between scientific knowledge and understanding through faith and religious experience. I view faith as another form of knowledge that is based more on insight and wisdom. It is using intuition as a way of understanding versus pure reason. But it should not be in conflict with reason, science, and experience. Therefore when I pose the question at the top of my blog "What do you believe?", I do so as an invitation to explore your beliefs, to question them, and to engage in a deeper search for meaning that may mean confronting uncomfortable facts and evolving your views.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeffrey-small/faith-is-not-a-synonym-fo_b_810458.html
Re: Bible Questions-1; Did The Bible Endorse Slavery? by thehomer: 12:02am On Feb 15, 2011
JeSoul:

Is this Prez in the religion section?  shocked smiley

The bible does not exactly 'endorse' slavery, but it certainly did permit it and instituted standards by which slave owners should treat their slaves. Here's a quick summary quote from CARM (Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, a fantastic website (along with apologeticspress.org) by the way if you're looking for quality christian apologetics on practically any subject)


http://carm.org/slavery
Slavery was permitted in the Bible because of sin in the world.  It existed before the Jews were formed as a nation and it existed after Israel was conquered.  God allows many things to happen in the world such as storms, famine, murder, etc.  Slavery, like divorce, is not preferred by God.  Instead, it is allowed.  Where many nations treated their slaves very badly, the Bible gave many rights and privileges to slaves.  So, even though it isn't the best way to deal with people, because God has allowed man freedom, slavery then exists.  God instructed the Israelites to treat them properly.

The Bible acknowledged the slave's status as the property of the master (Ex. 21:23; Lev. 25:46).

This is obviously a crime against humanity. Did God not know that a human owning another human was the one of the worst crimes that could be committed against another person? Did he change his mind or was it humans that decided that such an abominable act was just too debasing to both the slave and the master?


carm.org:

The Bible restricted the master's power over the slave. Ex. 21:20).

And the next verse? Ex. 21:21 check this out for cruelty.

Bible Amp ver:
But if the servant lives on for a day or two, the offender shall not be punished, for he [has injured] his own property.

Beat him but not enough that he dies after one day or two days? Did God not know whether or not to choose 24 hours or 48?


carm.org:

The slave was a member of the master's household (Lev. 22:11).

Of course only that he was a slave.


carm.org:

The slave was required to rest on the Sabbath (Exodus 20:10; Deut. 5:14).
The slave was required to participate in religious observances (Gen. 17:13; Exodus 12:44; Lev. 22:11).

i.e the slave was supposed to also observe his master's religion by force.


carm.org:

The Bible prohibited extradition of slaves and granted them asylum (Deut. 23:16-17).

This has me confused. Does this person remain a slave? Who now owns this slave?


carm.org:

The servitude of a Hebrew debt-slave was limited to six years (Ex. 21:2; Deut. 15:12).

What sort of moral debasement is this? Here is the quote of the first passage in full context.

Bible amp ver:
2If you buy a Hebrew servant [as the result of debt or theft], he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, paying nothing.(A)

    3If he came [to you] by himself, he shall go out by himself; if he came married, then his wife shall go out with him.

    4If his master has given him a wife and she has borne him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out [of your service] alone.

    5But if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go free,

    6Then his master shall bring him to God [the judges as His agents]; he shall bring him to the door or doorpost and shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him for life.

What sort of supreme, wise and good being will give this as law? To hold a man hostage because he loves his wife and children? The devil himself was not this cruel in the Bible.


carm.org:

When a slave was freed, he was to receive gifts that enabled him to survive economically (Deut. 15:14).

So that is the payment for the Hebrew slave that didn't happen to be beaten to death shortly before his release.


carm.org:

The reality of slavery cannot be denied.  "Slave labor played a minor economic role in the ancient Near East, for privately-owned slaves functioned more as domestic servants than as an agricultural or industrial labor force."1

This no excuse for it. God could command people not to kill as though they knew no better but he could not command them not to own other people? Yet this God does not change? These Christian apologists should try to be consistent.

The Bible clearly endorses slavery i.e people were encouraged to enslave people and the slaves were at the same time encouraged to obey their masters i.e slaves are not supposed to revolt.
Re: Bible Questions-1; Did The Bible Endorse Slavery? by thehomer: 12:19am On Feb 15, 2011
@pres-elect

One of the most effective ways of turning people away from the Bible is getting them to read it while thinking about what they're reading. Another is getting them to look into the history of the Bible.

Why are you afraid of losing your belief in this Biblical God?
Re: Bible Questions-1; Did The Bible Endorse Slavery? by preselect(m): 9:55pm On Feb 15, 2011
Thehomer
you won't understand. I'm a deep xtian. Period. My life story has convinced me there is a God in heaven. I have a PERSONAL rlshp wt him and yes he knows me by my name. I cannot base my religious belief on articles and books alone. No way. Even my medical training gave more proof that there is a God in heaven.

You have to convince me that your complex Swiss watch came up from some big bang theory before you can dream of telling me that all nature came from nowhere and nothing. No, I won't take that.

My research was to improve my knowledge not to question God but I begin to question a lot of thongs and at this point, truth be said, I'm confused. I gotta end this research, at least temporarily.

, ,.hmmmn, hmmmn, unbelievable, I can't believe this, ok, ,,,ok, ,I'm done
Re: Bible Questions-1; Did The Bible Endorse Slavery? by thehomer: 10:52pm On Feb 15, 2011
pres-elect:

Thehomer
you won't understand. I'm a deep xtian. Period. My life story has convinced me there is a God in heaven. I have a PERSONAL rlshp wt him and yes he knows me by my name. I cannot base my religious belief on articles and books alone. No way. Even my medical training gave more proof that there is a God in heaven.

Have you ever heard him call your name? What medical evidence did you encounter that made you conclude that there was a God and that there was also a heaven?


pres-elect:

You have to convince me that your complex Swiss watch came up from some big bang theory before you can dream of telling me that all nature came from nowhere and nothing. No, I won't take that.

No one has made this argument.


pres-elect:

My research was to improve my knowledge not to question God but I begin to question a lot of thongs and at this point, truth be said, I'm confused. I gotta end this research, at least temporarily.

Why do you not question God? Are you afraid of what you might find? I'd advice you to continue your research if you really care about whether or not what you believe is true.


pres-elect:

, ,.hmmmn, hmmmn, unbelievable, I can't believe this, ok, ,,,ok, ,I'm done

Good luck to you.
Re: Bible Questions-1; Did The Bible Endorse Slavery? by preselect(m): 3:05pm On Feb 16, 2011
Homer you won't understand. I need to cool my head now. I didn't expect this at all. I need to take a break, and return later to this research.

And I do question my God. But I don't question his authority.
Re: Bible Questions-1; Did The Bible Endorse Slavery? by Nobody: 4:05pm On Feb 16, 2011
JeSoul said:

The bible does not exactly 'endorse' slavery, but it certainly did permit it and instituted standards by which slave owners should treat their slaves.

I have to laugh at this statement -  grin grin grin grin grin grin grin grin grin


In fact it is so patently ludicrous that I need to laugh one more time:


grin grin grin grin grin grin grin grin grin grin grin grin grin


Phew -  Now my ribs have stopped hurting, may I ask you a simple question, ie, what does PERMISSION and the SETTING OF STANDARDS for the operation of slavery constitute if not a ringing endorsement

Y'see this is why I say that Confusion and double standards borne of the gross contradiction between the ideal virtues you attribute to God, and the viciously repugnant character of the ''God'' character in the Jewish bible, will be the undoing of you christians.
Re: Bible Questions-1; Did The Bible Endorse Slavery? by thehomer: 11:38pm On Feb 16, 2011
pres-elect:

Homer you won't understand. I need to cool my head now. I didn't expect this at all. I need to take a break, and return later to this research.

And I do question my God. But I don't question his authority.

What do you question about your God?
Re: Bible Questions-1; Did The Bible Endorse Slavery? by preselect(m): 5:53pm On Mar 09, 2011
when events i dont comprehend happen to me, contrary to my understanding of God's will, I ask my God questions. I'm his child, the apple of his eyes. i may not understand everything but i do ask questions about my personal life.
Re: Bible Questions-1; Did The Bible Endorse Slavery? by thehomer: 8:41am On Mar 10, 2011
pres-elect:

when events i dont comprehend happen to me, contrary to my understanding of God's will, I ask my God questions. I'm his child, the apple of his eyes. i may not understand everything but i do ask questions about my personal life.

And does he respond?
Re: Bible Questions-1; Did The Bible Endorse Slavery? by Image123(m): 1:32pm On Mar 10, 2011
Hahaha, so atheists too have started doing 'evangelism'?
Re: Bible Questions-1; Did The Bible Endorse Slavery? by LoveKing(m): 10:06pm On Mar 10, 2011
This is interesting. But wait, Is God not Love? What is Love? will Love even think of slavery (in any kind of way)? Really the screen is clear before us but we are the ones making things so complex.
Re: Bible Questions-1; Did The Bible Endorse Slavery? by preselect(m): 10:19pm On Mar 10, 2011
thehomer:

And does he respond?

yes, in his own way
Re: Bible Questions-1; Did The Bible Endorse Slavery? by thehomer: 6:59am On Mar 11, 2011
pres-elect:

yes, in his own way

What do you mean by this?
Re: Bible Questions-1; Did The Bible Endorse Slavery? by nlPoster: 12:32pm On Sep 29, 2019
.
Re: Bible Questions-1; Did The Bible Endorse Slavery? by sonmvayina(m): 12:58pm On Sep 29, 2019
Fact number 1: the Bible is NOT a history text book.
Fact number 2: the Bible is a spiritual manual.
Fact number 3: translating the Bible literally will lead to more problems as the authors where not writing actual event.
Fact number 4: God is not a man or human being.
Fact number 5: men wrote the Bible.
Fact number 6: Gods, goddesses, Devils, are all personification of natural laws and principles..



Back to my points, slavery simply means ignorance of self.. So Egypt simply personifies it.. So the gods of Egypt simply means the things that stops you from knowing who you are and being the best version of yourself.. Like worries, procrastination, fear, anger.. Etc..
So we are required to read the whole story and learn the messages they teach.. Not reading them out of context.. The letter killeth.

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