I created this thread for me and Dtruthspeaker to iron things out concerning the new testament and Jesus.. I maintained that the new testament is of Roman /Greek origin and has nothing to do with the jews and their God.i will aim to show how the new testament was developed from Babylonian epics and Greek and Roman mythology.. And why they super glued it to the Jewish Tanakh..

Happy following..

Like I said, the Jewish prophets wrote about the Messiah, that God was sending to redeem them. When the jews speak of salvation it is always from physical danger..
As per the problem of sin, God already provided a solution in 2nd chronicle 7:14.
Concerning the Messiah, this is what is believed.
J-s Was Not Messiah, He Did Not Fulfill Any Prophecies
* The Messiah must be from the Tribe of Judah and a Descendant of King David AND King Solomon, not Jeconiah, through his human biological father. Genesis 49:10, 2 Samuel 7:12-14; 1 Chronicles 17:11-14, 22:9-10, 28:4-6; Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Jeremiah 22:30, 36:30, Psalm 89:35-37. Genealogy in the Bible is only passed down from father to son Numbers 1:1-18.

J-s didn't have this genealogy, he didn't have a birth father from the Tribe of Judah, in the line from King David and Solomon, not Jeconiah. He had a virgin birth according to Matthew and Luke. And even if he didn't have virgin birth neither genealogy in Matthew 1 or Luke 3 can produce a King to be the Messiah. In Luke 3 the genealogy doesn't go through Solomon as required and in Matthew 1 the genealogy is rejected because it goes though Jeconiah.
II Samuel 7:12-14, I Chronicles 17:11-14, 22:9-10, 28:4-6, Jeremiah 22:30,36:30.

* When Messiah is reigning as King the Jews will be ingathered from their exile and will return to Israel Deut. 30:3; Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 30:3, 32:37; Ezekiel 11:17, 36:24. This didn't happen, the Jews were dispersed widely after the death of J-s.

* When Messiah comes the Temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt and sin sacrifices will be fully instituted Isaiah 2:2-3, 56:6-7, 60:7, 66:20; Ezekiel 37:26-27, 45:17-46:16; Malachi 3:4; Zech. 14:20-21. The Temple was destroyed after the death of J-s.
3
* When Messiah comes there will be Worldwide Reign of Peace and complete end to war Micah 4:1-4; Hoseah 2:20; Isaiah 2:1-4, 60:18. There are still wars upon wars.

* When Messiah is reigning as King all of the Jewish people will observe Torah Ezekiel 37:24; Deut. 30:8,10; Jeremiah 31:32; Ezekiel 11:19-20, 36:26-27. Everyone is not obeying Torah the world is filled with rebellion to the Most High.

* When Messiah comes all the people of the world will come to acknowledge and serve the one true Elohim Zechariah 3:9, 8:23,14:9,16; Isaiah 45:23, 66:23; Jeremiah 31:33; Ezekiel 38:23; Psalm 86:9; Zeph. 3:9.

* J-s didn't fulfill any prophecies about Messiah. He didn't have a human biological father in the royal kingly line, the Jews have not ingathered from their exile, the third Temple has not been rebuilt, there is not world wide peace, there is still war, all the Jewish people are not observing Torah and not all people are serving the Most High.

sonmvayina:
Like I said, the Jewish prophets wrote about the Messiah, that God was sending to redeem them. When the jews speak of salvation it is always from physical danger..
As per the problem of sin, God already provided a solution in 2nd chronicle 7:14.
Concerning the Messiah, this is what is believed.
J-s Was Not Messiah, He Did Not Fulfill Any Prophecies
* The Messiah must be from the Tribe of Judah and a Descendant of King David AND King Solomon, not Jeconiah, through his human biological father. Genesis 49:10, 2 Samuel 7:12-14; 1 Chronicles 17:11-14, 22:9-10, 28:4-6; Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Jeremiah 22:30, 36:30, Psalm 89:35-37. Genealogy in the Bible is only passed down from father to son Numbers 1:1-18.

J-s didn't have this genealogy, he didn't have a birth father from the Tribe of Judah, in the line from King David and Solomon, not Jeconiah. He had a virgin birth according to Matthew and Luke. And even if he didn't have virgin birth neither genealogy in Matthew 1 or Luke 3 can produce a King to be the Messiah. In Luke 3 the genealogy doesn't go through Solomon as required and in Matthew 1 the genealogy is rejected because it goes though Jeconiah.
II Samuel 7:12-14, I Chronicles 17:11-14, 22:9-10, 28:4-6, Jeremiah 22:30,36:30.

* When Messiah is reigning as King the Jews will be ingathered from their exile and will return to Israel Deut. 30:3; Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 30:3, 32:37; Ezekiel 11:17, 36:24. This didn't happen, the Jews were dispersed widely after the death of J-s.

* When Messiah comes the Temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt and sin sacrifices will be fully instituted Isaiah 2:2-3, 56:6-7, 60:7, 66:20; Ezekiel 37:26-27, 45:17-46:16; Malachi 3:4; Zech. 14:20-21. The Temple was destroyed after the death of J-s.
3
* When Messiah comes there will be Worldwide Reign of Peace and complete end to war Micah 4:1-4; Hoseah 2:20; Isaiah 2:1-4, 60:18. There are still wars upon wars.

* When Messiah is reigning as King all of the Jewish people will observe Torah Ezekiel 37:24; Deut. 30:8,10; Jeremiah 31:32; Ezekiel 11:19-20, 36:26-27. Everyone is not obeying Torah the world is filled with rebellion to the Most High.

* When Messiah comes all the people of the world will come to acknowledge and serve the one true Elohim Zechariah 3:9, 8:23,14:9,16; Isaiah 45:23, 66:23; Jeremiah 31:33; Ezekiel 38:23; Psalm 86:9; Zeph. 3:9.

* J-s didn't fulfill any prophecies about Messiah. He didn't have a human biological father in the royal kingly line, the Jews have not ingathered from their exile, the third Temple has not been rebuilt, there is not world wide peace, there is still war, all the Jewish people are not observing Torah and not all people are serving the Most High.

Please i don't want to get you provoked, would you appreciate it if i come into this?

Maximus69:

Please i don't want to get you provoked, would you appreciate it if i come into this?

You have to stay on discussion.. No name calling or any funny attempt at humor..

Come on in.. :
All quote must be from the old testament since it is the new testament that is on trial..

sonmvayina:


You have to stay on discussion.. No name calling or any funny attempt at humor..

Come on in.. :
All quote must be from the old testament since it is the new testament that is on trial..

The highlighted is what JWs cherish most during a discussion so be rest assured that no name calling of any sort will come in between us at least from my side!

.

sonmvayina:


[1]J-s didn't fulfill any prophecies about Messiah.
[2]He didn't have a human biological father in the royal kingly line,
[3]the Jews have not ingathered from their exile, the third Temple has not been rebuilt,
[4]there is not world wide peace, there is still war, all the Jewish people are not observing Torah [5]and not all people are serving the Most High.

All these points should be addressed one after the other, but first you need to acknowledge that if you don't want any quotations from the New Testament then you don't have to bring Jesus into the matter at all, because the NT is all about Jesus of Nazareth!

So to start with, we need to find an answer to a very important question: Was there any man who lived during the first century named Jesus from Nazareth?

Maximus69:


All these points should be addressed one after the other, but first you need to acknowledge that if you don't want any quotations from the New Testament then you don't have to bring Jesus into the matter at all, because the NT is all about Jesus of Nazareth!

So to start with, we need to find an answer to a very important question: Was there any man who lived during the first century named Jesus from Nazareth?

Let us assume we are jews living at the time of prophet malachi what kind of Messiah will you be looking forward to?.. So that we can at least judge if the new testament was necessary..

sonmvayina:


Let us assume we are jews living at the time of prophet malachi what kind of Messiah will you be looking forward to?.. So that we can at least judge if the new testament was necessary..

Please are you the one giving me likes on the posts? Because i hate such nonsense when chatting about something of serious concern like this!

So let's assume that we are Jews living during the time of Malachi, but first you need to answer my question:-

Was there a Jew who lived during the first century by the name of Jesus from Nazareth?

Maximus69:


Please are you the one giving me likes on the posts? Because i hate such nonsense when chatting about something of serious concern like this!

So let's assume that we are Jews living during the time of Malachi, but first you need to answer my question:-

Was there a Jew who lived during the first century by the name of Jesus from Nazareth?

The reason why i am asking the question about Jesus is simple. Prophecies are meant to be fulfilled but before questioning if it has been fulfilled or not we need to consider all the events that happened ever since the pronouncement of the prophecy so that we can be sure whether it has not been fulfilled or we are the ones who failed to take note of it's fulfilments!

Maximus69:


Please are you the one giving me likes on the posts? Because i hate such nonsense when chatting about something of serious concern like this!

So let's assume that we are Jews living during the time of Malachi, but first you need to answer my question:-

Was there a Jew who lived during the first century by the name of Jesus from Nazareth?

No, he is just a made up character by the Romans /Greeks.. The jew don't have the idea of gods mating with humans as part of their belief.. That is in the realm of Greek and Roman mythology... Persius and Co comes to mind.

Well if you must know, the prophecies about the Messiah wasn't from just one Prophet, it ran through the Old Testament, meaning those hoping for such fulfilments shouldn't expect all to take place the same period, an intellectual would expect the fulfilment to run through a long period just as the prophecies kept coming from prophets that lived in different periods!

Jesus of Nazareth proved to be the Messiah but as we know from the history of the Israelites that this nation is a stiff-necked race, there has never been a time they wholeheartedly exercise faith in a true Prophet of God, even Moses who brought them out from under Egyptian bondage has serious issues with them.
So their crooked and greedy religious leaders of the first century can't bury the truth about Jesus Christ!
You must have had a dealing with fanatic Jews, trust me they know how to discard everything about Jesus' life and ministry, but we don't need to be biased, if Jesus is not Hausa, Igbo or Yoruba, we must thoroughly scrutinize both side, i mean if we agree to study the Old Testament, we must consider the New Testament as well, both were written thousands of years ago. So since we're not present to talk with the writers, there is no reason to be biased or one sided!

©Jesus' foster father and biological mother were both from the linage of King David!
© During the first century when Jesus walked the earth, the Jews (the tribes of Judah and Benjamin) were the inhabitants of Judea while Samaritans (the remaining ten tribes of Israel) occupied the northern kingdom of Samaria.
©The third Temple is no physical Temple but spiritual Temple, and this was erected when Jesus was resurrected, the will Jews crookedly debunk anything having to do with spirituality when they're against any Prophet, but ask them if their God sent Elijah who was taken up in a chariot of fire, then they'll start telling you how marvelous their God was.
©There will be worldwide PEACE when the Messiah begin his reign in earth, the churches of Christendom complicated the whole thing by saying Jesus is now ruling, whereas Jesus is only directing the affairs of his imperfect followers who are less than 9 Million today!
©There is LOVE, JOY and PEACE amongst Jehovah's Witnesses (Jesus' true followers) this must be so because JEHOVAH can't destroy the rest of mankind without giving them a sign, they must see the evidence of what Jesus (the Messiah) spoke about in the midst of those adhering to his teachings before JEHOVAH comes to wipe unbelievers all away!
©The Jews mentioned here aren't physical Jews anymore because the last set of Jews God took serious were the first century Christians who faithfully followed Jesus. After them, all those who joined the group back then were taken in as Jews by the God who is not partial.
© Today there is no part of the earth where you won't find Jehovah's Witnesses, this are the true worshipers of Jehovah today, that's why all what God said concerning his people in the end time is fulfilling amongst JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES!

Maximus69:
Well if you must know, the prophecies about the Messiah wasn't from just one Prophet, it ran through the Old Testament, meaning those hoping for such fulfilments shouldn't expect all to take place the same period, an intellectual would expect the fulfilment to run through a long period just as the prophecies kept coming from prophets that lived in different periods!

Jesus of Nazareth proved to be the Messiah but as we know from the history of the Israelites that this nation is a stiff-necked race, there has never been a time they wholeheartedly exercise faith in a true Prophet of God, even Moses who brought them out from under Egyptian bondage has serious issues with them.
So their crooked and greedy religious leaders of the first century can't bury the truth about Jesus Christ!
You must have had a dealing with fanatic Jews, trust me they know how to discard everything about Jesus' life and ministry, but we don't need to be biased, if Jesus is not Hausa, Igbo or Yoruba, we must thoroughly scrutinize both side, i mean if we agree to study the Old Testament, we must consider the New Testament as well, both were written thousands of years ago. So since we're not present to talk with the writers, there is no reason to be biased or one sided!

©Jesus' foster father and biological mother were both from the linage of King David!
© During the first century when Jesus walked the earth, the Jews (the tribes of Judah and Benjamin) were the inhabitants of Judea while Samaritans (the remaining ten tribes of Israel) occupied the northern kingdom of Samaria.
©The third Temple is no physical Temple but spiritual Temple, and this was erected when Jesus was resurrected, the will Jews crookedly debunk anything having to do with spirituality when they're against any Prophet, but ask them if their God sent Elijah who was taken up in a chariot of fire, then they'll start telling you how marvelous their God was.
©There will be worldwide PEACE when the Messiah begin his reign in earth, the churches of Christendom complicated the whole thing by saying Jesus is now ruling, whereas Jesus is only directing the affairs of his imperfect followers who are less than 9 Million today!
©There is LOVE, JOY and PEACE amongst Jehovah's Witnesses (Jesus' true followers) this must be so because JEHOVAH can't destroy the rest of mankind without giving them a sign, they must see the evidence of what Jesus (the Messiah) spoke about in the midst of those adhering to his teachings before JEHOVAH comes to wipe unbelievers all away!
©The Jews mentioned here aren't physical Jews anymore because the last set of Jews God took serious were the first century Christians who faithfully followed Jesus. After them, all those who joined the group back then were taken in as Jews by the God who is not partial.
© Today there is no part of the earth where you won't find Jehovah's Witnesses, this are the true worshipers of Jehovah today, that's why all what God said concerning his people in the end time is fulfilling amongst JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES!

This is just what you have been fed with, I want you to prove he was a real person.. Or that he was the promised Messiah.. I want to see what people that saw him said about him. Not stories written centuries later.. There were historians and scholars leaving at the supposed time he lived, what did they say about him?.

How did he fulfill the messianic prophesies?. I gave the prophesies in my second post.. Show me how he fulfill them.. I don't need your opinion.. I want facts I can check out..

Or better still give me what you think are the messianic prophesies and when he fulfilled them.. You can start by telling me the Jewish idea of a Messiah from a credible Jewish scholar.. Or site.

sonmvayina:


No, he is just a made up character by the Romans /Greeks.. The jew don't have the idea of gods mating with humans as part of their belief.. That is in the realm of Greek and Roman mythology... Persius and Co comes to mind.

Hmmmmmmmm so there was no Jewish carpenter who lived in the first century in the name of Jesus from Nazareth?

Well i think the Jews themselves have something to say about this!

Flavius Josephus who lived during the time of Jesus Christ acknowledged that a man actually lived amongst the Jews who claimed he was the Christ, though not a Christian himself Flavius never denied the existence of Jesus of Nazareth!

sonmvayina:


This is just what you have been fed with, I want you to prove he was a real person.. Or that he was the promised Messiah.. I want to see what people that saw him said about him. Not stories written centuries later.. There were historians and scholars leaving at the supposed time he lived, what did they say about him?.

How did he fulfill the messianic prophesies?. I gave the prophesies in my second post.. Show me how he fulfill them.. I don't need your opinion.. I want facts I can check out..

Both of us are saying what we were fed Sir.
Neither you nor myself lived in the first century to say whether Jesus was real or not, what we're both saying now is as we were told!

sonmvayina:
Or better still give me what you think are the messianic prophesies and when he fulfilled them.. You can start by telling me the Jewish idea of a Messiah from a credible Jewish scholar.. Or site.

The so called Jewish credible scholar of our time are fighting for their tradition not the truth!

So those who acknowledge the existence of Jesus and his miracles will be spoken of as infidels!

It's by carefully considering other events that happened down through the centuries that we can figure out facts!

Maximus69:


The so called Jewish credible scholar of our time are fighting for their tradition not the truth!

So those who acknowledge the existence of Jesus and his miracles will be spoken of as infidels!

It's by carefully considering other events that happened down through the centuries that we can figure out facts!

OK, present them..

Maximus69:


Both of us are saying what we were fed Sir.
Neither you nor myself lived in the first century to say whether Jesus was real or not, what we're both saying now is as we were told!

But I have read about the history of the first century from credible historians, all of them are silent about him.. Why..

Somebody that fed 5000+ people, don't you think that would be difficult to miss.

sonmvayina:


OK, present them..

First of all let's confirm whether Jesus was real or not!

Titus Flavius Josephus actually confirmed in his writings (though not directly) that both John the baptist and Jesus was real people who lived during the first century!

Please Google Flavius Josephus Sir!

Maximus69:


Hmmmmmmmm so there was no Jewish carpenter who lived in the first century in the name of Jesus from Nazareth?

Well i think the Jews themselves have something to say about this!

Flavius Josephus who lived during the time of Jesus Christ acknowledged that a man actually lived amongst the Jews who claimed he was the Christ, though not a Christian himself Flavius never denied the existence of Jesus of Nazareth!

Not at all Josephus NEVER made any mention of Jesus in any of his works at least 4 have come down to us.. The so called testimonion flavanium has been discovered to be a fraud..

sonmvayina:


But I have read about the history of the first century from credible historians, all of them are silent about him.. Why..

Somebody that fed 5000+ people, don't you think that would be difficult to miss.

Sir, the account by one of his followers named Luke stated that their rulers were fighting with everything within their reach to bury Jesus' story and erase him in their history! Act 4:18; 5:28

So Flavius Josephus whose story mentioned part of what happened regarding John the baptist and Jesus of Nazareth never did so with the intention of establishing their historicity but somehow the truth about this two men was found in his story!

Maximus69:


Sir, the account by one of his followers named Luke stated that their rulers were fighting with everything within their reach to bury Jesus' story and erase him in their history! Act 4:18; 5:28

So Flavius Josephus whose story mentioned part of what happened regarding John the baptist and Jesus of Nazareth never did so with the intention of establishing their historicity but somehow the truth about this two men was found in his story!

Josephus came too late, to be of any importance.. Philo of Alexander lived during that period.. What did he say about him... Zero.. Nothing at all..

sonmvayina:


Not at all Josephus NEVER made any mention of Jesus in any of his works at least 4 have come down to us.. The so called testimonion flavanium has been discovered to be a fraud..

Well how do you come to the conclusion that the persons you never saw or heard their voices are fraud?

The Jews according to their own book that they cherish are crooked and stiff-necked people who can do anything to bury facts!

So that's why i'm saying we must consider other factors apart from what we read in books!

For instance, people can argue that Benjamin Franklin never existed if not because we are seeing electricity today!

So let's consider what Jesus taught whether his followers are around now doing exactly what he taught back then in the first century!

Maximus69:


Sir, the account by one of his followers named Luke stated that their rulers were fighting with everything within their reach to bury Jesus' story and erase him in their history! Act 4:18; 5:28

So Flavius Josephus whose story mentioned part of what happened regarding John the baptist and Jesus of Nazareth never did so with the intention of establishing their historicity but somehow the truth about this two men was found in his story!

OK, let me oblige you.. Let us assume he was a real person.. Of what importance is his story to God or to man?

sonmvayina:


Josephus came too late, to be of any importance.. Philo of Alexander lived during that period.. What did he say about him... Zero.. Nothing at all..

Josephus himself never wanted to mention anything about Jesus but in his narratives facts were gotten that both John the baptist and Jesus of Nazareth were real people!

What or who is he?.. Do you subscribe to the trinity?

sonmvayina:


OK, let me oblige you.. Let us assume he was a real person.. Of what importance is his story to God or to man?

Please let's continue tomorrow, it's bed time. Good night Sir!

Wow! I've missed a lot! love this and wish to follow the thread but please can i also join in the chat as in contribute? It's really interesting.

TATIME:
Wow! I've missed a lot! love this and wish to follow the thread but please can i also join in the chat as in contribute? It's really interesting.

Good morning! Please i'll really appreciate if you allow us handle this between two persons, he is interested in further discussion, he has given me his WhatsApp number and address perhaps for a private home discussion.
So i'll like to take care of him one on one!

sonmvayina:


OK, let me oblige you.. Let us assume he was a real person.. Of what importance is his story to God or to man?

We need not doubt the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth, he was a real person who lived among the Jews in the first century!
Of what importance is Jesus to God and man?
First of all we must remember how painful it is when our loved ones die and we have to dig the ground and put them in the pit, no matter what we believe whether we are Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Churchgoer, Atheist, Agnostic or JW, we will feel really bad and most times we're devastated and burst into tears! John 11:35
So it's not part of human nature to welcome the death of our fellowman whether we know them or not! Ecclesiastes 3:11
God himself never create this specie with a view of allowing them to return back to oblivion, in his program man made in God's image supposed to live forever. That's why we often see staggering figures when reading about the lifespan of the first set of humans that walked the earth {Genesis 5:5,27} they were really close to perfection!
Immediately after the fall of man God arranged for a blotting out of the cause of death, Adam supposed to be the primary mediator between man and God, all instructions will pass through Adam to mankind though each person could pray (supplicate on his own) to God but instead of the Bible that we have today, Adam supposed to be our Bible as he will stand to speak to each generation as God's representative. So we were supposed to see God with our senses but his words we were to hear from Adam.
When Adam fell and became a rebel he lost that privileged and someone perfect like him supposed to take up what Adam lost, that's why a spirit from heaven must come to do that.
Michael has always been God's Chief spokesman in heaven, his face is what all other angels knew and all instructions passes through him to them all though they knew him as one of them. This mighty spirit being took the initiative to come and deliver mankind from sin and death, that's how he became the WORD of God both in heaven and on earth! John 1:1

sonmvayina:
What or who is he?.. Do you subscribe to the trinity?

Jesus is angel Michael in the spirit realms, he is the perfect replacement for Adam.
There's nothing like TRINITY, God is one and only the grand Creator who has all the say.
Michael (Jesus) only participated in during the works of creation, this might sound preposterous but think of this: God created Adam and there were no like skyscrapers, bridges, electricity, cars, trains, aeroplane, internet and so on. Who created all of these? Well it's Adam's descendants who keeps on working to improve on the things they found on earth!
I remember my cousin's son who argued profusely when i told him that electricity is not natural but generated, of course the little boy felt it has always been there because Adam's imperfect descendants worked really hard to maintain and sustain electricity!
So when God's word tell us that Michael (Jesus) worked with God in the beginning to set all things both in heaven and on earth in place we need not doubt it! Genesis 1:26; Proverbs 8:22-34; John 1:1; Colossians 1:15-16
God's word referred to Michael (Jesus) as a god not because he is part of God in anyway but because he took part during creation, just as the man Moses played a vitat role in the deliverance of Israelites from Egypt, no wonder God said about Moses "I have made you like a God before Pharaoh" {Exodus 7:1} Moses supposed to be scared while standing before Pharaoh who happens to be the most powerful King of that time but NO Moses stood before Pharaoh like a GOD having authority over all the gods of Egypt including Pharaoh their King who was also viewed as a god on his own!
So Jesus (Michael) served as God just like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15-19} but he is no part of JEHOVAH the one and only TRUE God! Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 42:8

TATIME:
Wow! I've missed a lot! love this and wish to follow the thread but please can i also join in the chat as in contribute? It's really interesting.

You can join, but please stay on discussion..