shadeyinka:

NO Body relays tomorrow. You can only relay (prophetically) the content of tomorrow!

Exactly!

ShadeYinka, should I do a recap of everything we've both discussed from page1 to page11?

Blabbermouth:

Are you ShadeYinka? If not, please give the phone to ShadeYinka.
Since the page 1 of this thread, everyone's been talking about the "content" in time whether past, present, or future.
What I am saying is - The future has no content!
Except If God declares this or that to happen in it.

@Bolded!
If what you mean is that the future is not fixed but depends on the past and present choices and events, then we are on the same page here.

@yellow highlight
God does not determine our future for us. God does not declare EVERYTHING to be!

Anything contrary to the above make God the author of every good and every evil. He declares a man to carry arms and go Rob a house. He also make the man shoot down the owners of the house. God also declares this robber for hell fire.

No sir!
God does not declare everything to be.

Blabbermouth:
ShadeYinka, should I do a recap of everything we've both discussed from page1 to page11?

Not necessary!
Except you agree that God does NOT declare EVERYTHING to be!

Blabbermouth:

Hurray! ShadeYinka is back. Now you see, we've all been discussing on the content and not the 12 am per say. I mean the "what will happen in the..."
Now, do you perfectly understand my view?

No I do not think I still understand you because you believe that God declares EVERYTHING to be!

To me, that is a violation of God's character. He is a just God.

Blabbermouth:

You said this. Can you see 11 O' clock? Can you see 12 O' clock?
You can't see time, it's abstract. You can however see "what happened in time"...
Again, we've been talking about content.

This has nothing to do with God's knowledge of the future. This is because God is omnipresent in both TIME and SPACE!

shadeyinka:

No I do not think I still understand you because you believe that God declares EVERYTHING to be!

To me, that is a violation of God's character. He is a just God.

That's the part you don't fully comprehend yet.
Nowhere did I say God declared EVERYTHING to be!
I'm saying Whatever God has not declared does not Exist!
We both No that God has not declared Hell for anyone, so that "Otem will go to hell" is a nonexistent account.
That's why I'm saying God does not foresee where I will end, because my end does not exist!

1/ how Light had to produce a light(lucifer) that produced darkness. Where then did the darkness or its possibility arise from, if its grandparent is Light without darkness.

Blabbermouth:
A perfect potter produced a perfect pot. The pot having freewill dropped itself from the table and cracked from the impact on hitting hard on the floor, thus, the perfect pot became imperfect. God (who is light) created Lucifer (light bearer). Lucifer by free will separated himself from the source of light, thus Lucifer became dark.

1/ According to you, creation will produce realities alien to God's original state and therefore the end will not be as the beginning since Satan and evil are alien to god's original state of existence?

2/ Also what does God then mean by claiming to know good and evil in Genesis 3:22.

Blabbermouth:
God knows what it is for something to be Good, He knows also what it is for something to be evil. The knowledge of Evil does not make you evil.

You've changed your stance again.
2/ Now, God knows evil you say. Before you said he knows nothing outside his nature which excludes darkness, death, evil which are simply the absence of his light essence?

3/ after a sinner chooses, does God then know the sinner's present and also his end which according to you isn't part of God's foreknowledge?

Blabbermouth:
Yes He does. However, I wasn't supposed to answer you.

3/ So God grows in knowledge and gets to know things he didn't originally know. Your god is a learner?

4/ If he then knows, has he then updated his knowledge and become more than what he initially was? and yet many other questions.

Blabbermouth:
I can ask you the same question that before God foreknows and after He foreknows, has he updated his knowledge? He spoke to Abraham after He laid Isaac on the altar saying - Genesis 22:12"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him for now I know that thou fearest God, seeingthou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son".. That's the word of God himself.

4/ If your stance is that God updates his knowledge with our actions, then God is not a constant and the end of God is different from his beginning. This is breaking the laws of the universe. Do you agree to this?

5/ how God predicts the future of both the good and the evil, like Jacob and Esau etc., before they even make their choices.

Blabbermouth:
Israel going into Egypt is God's orchestration. Abraham being a father of many nation is God's orchestration. When He declares, will he then have no knowledge of what he has declared?

You keep avoiding the crux of the matter. You claimed God doesn't know our future or end before we create it.
5a/ How then does he reveal the destiny of Esau and Jacob who had not yet made choices in the womb?
5b/ How does he also tell of Judas Iscariot's destiny , before his birth and his choices, Acts 1:20?

6/ whose names are not in the book of life and why do these people exist since they are not part of God's foreknowledge.

Blabbermouth:
No literal names were written. To us, Christ died 2000+ years ago, To God, Christ died before the foundation of the world. His realm is NOW! No later, no tommorow.

No literal names, yes, but you have not answered my question. There are those who are outside the city who are not in the lamb's scroll of life.
6a/ Are these people not existing? If so, your stance that anything God didn't forthtell, is nonexistent is false?
6b/ and who brought them into existence?
6c/ If it was God that declared them into existence, then it means his word which declares according to his nature of only good has been overturned by them? God's word has failed then or
6d/ if God created them and none can undo what God does, then how were they able to end up in a reality opposed to God's foreknowledge.

7/ and how they could create a reality that didn't exist in God. Is the end then different from the beginning?Those that believe in future are those who will have an error with this. The end of a point is the same as it's beginning.

Blabbermouth:
Which reality? You still don't get it, you can never directly create darkness, if you want darkness, take light away.

I wonder when you're gonna stop repeating this mantra of absence of light like some new revelation.
7/ You keep contradicting yourself as expected. You said only we and God have the ability to create our end which God doesn't know before it is created. Now these people have created realities and an end against god's. So it means the end is different from the beginning, again.

8/ What is meant in Isaiah 45:7, how God forms light and creates darkness and good and evil.

Blabbermouth:
The psalmist said "Light and darkness are the same to you". God's darkness is Light. God's evil is still Good.

Like I said until you understand God's state of existence, you'll keep getting things mixed up.
Psa 139:11-12 If I say "surely the darkness will cover me", even night will be light about me. Yes the darkness hides not from you but the night shines as the day. The darkness and the light are both alike to you.
Learn not to mix up contexts. The only meaning here is that the darkness is as visible, rather than obscure, to God as light.
8a/ Meaning God knows darkness just as well as he knows light, not that God's darkness is light. This is already against your stance on foreknowledge?
Isa 45:7 I form light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YAHWEH do all these things
Here again, it says God creates both all the good and evil, light and darkness.
8b/ This is also clearly against your stance concerning predestination which is supposed to only be according to God's solely good nature?

9/ As for his case with Isaiah 46:10, he ended up just replacing God's forthtelling with foreknowledge which are twodistinct attributes of God and he does both. Forthtelling is how he brings his foreknowledge to play in this movie.

Blabbermouth:
I did not replace anything. We all agree that declaring is predetermining and not foretelling.

The point is you used this to strike out God knowing the end from travelling through time to the end, which you labeled foreknowledge, but that he only knows the end from the beginning, i.e. creating it or forthtelling.
9/ Now do you accept that God also has foreknowledge of our end apart from forthtelling?

10/ As for your stance on the foetuses. You're really kidding, aren't you. Does any foetus go to hell, like during an abortion or a little baby that dies, since these haven't chosen Christ?

Summary: Your position leaves many gaps, loopholes and contradictions as expected because you've not correctly defined god's original state of existence and still think in normal human terms.

Blabbermouth:

That's the part you don't fully comprehend yet.
Nowhere did I say God declared EVERYTHING to be!
I'm saying Whatever God has not declared does not Exist!
We both No that God has not declared Hell for anyone, so that "Otem will go to hell" is a nonexistent account.
That's why I'm saying God does not foresee where I will end, because my end does not exist!

I am honestly trying to understand you but sometimes your definitions are out of league and thus misunderstandings set in.

Now you say:
"I'm saying Whatever God has not declared does not Exist!"

Does "whatever" include these examples
1. A man raped a girl and gave her HIV (note the past tense)
a. Is the rape episode inclusive of the "whatever does exist or not"?
b. Is the reality of HIV infection of the girl inclusive of the "whatever does exist or not"?

2. If these episode in 1 exist, has God foreseen both the rape and the HIV infection (beforehand)?

The answers to these two questions will honestly give comprehension to the discuss.

MuttleyLaff:
“Ha! What do You want with us, Jesus of Nazareth?
Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are—the Holy One of God!”
- Luke 4:34

“And they cried out, saying,
“What business do we have with each other, Son of God?
Have You come here to torment us before the time?
They began screaming at Him,
“Why are you interfering with us, Son of God?
Have you come here to torture us before God’s appointed time?””
- Matthew 8:29

"Then death and Hades (i.e. Hell/Sheol/Gehenna) were thrown into the lake of fire.
The lake of fire is the second death."
- Revelation 20:14

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
The one who is victorious will not be harmed by the second death."
- Revelation 2:11

FAO Blabbermouth Mr No future, Mr No Hell

What happens to anyone that tries to usurp a king but fails woefully?
Does the king organize a banquet for him? No!
Satan does not need a soothsayer to tell him he will be tormented forever and ever.
His allies (those who are the subject of your highlight) do not need a soothsayer to tell them they will be tormented.
That is what God has declared for usurpers liked Satan and his angels and it shall come to pass.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Please sir, I repeat, whatever God declares will 100% happen.
Humans and Angels also declare or orchestrate (I established that before with a very practical example) and that is the confidence of our freewill.
The fallen angels falling from grace is as a result's of the angels' own orchestration.
The torment was God's declaration and it served as a punishment for them.
I hope you perfectly understand me now.
Also, it's like you've mistaken me for someone else. Where did I say "No hell"?

I'm sure you didn't go through this before, please read it;

Everyone is thinking too far because of the unbias explanation of Isaiah 46:10 , but we are not there still. Before we proceed, let me digress and establish something very important about Isaiah 46:10. Do you know that man can do something similar to What God does in Isaiah 46:10? Yeah, even the angels can do it, in fact, any being with that thing called free will and an active force can do such, it's part of the free will package. Howbeit, in an infinitely smaller scale to God's own.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Check this out...

Do this simple practical...

Look at the time now (it's about 2:10pm), now tell someone in the room that the following would have happened about 2:15pm

1. Your phone will be switched off

2. You will be in the other room

3. You won't be putting on any shirt


Tell the person to check the time and confirm that everything happened 5 minute later just as you said 5 minute ago.

(While the person is doing the countdown, switch off your phone, off your shirt and move to another room)

So, by 2:15pm, everything should be just as you said 5 minutes ago.

What did you just do?
Is that you knowing the future?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
No! Voila, you just declared what will happen in 2:15pm i.e. The End [as long as this exercise is concerned] from 2:10pm I.e. The beginning (as long as this exercise is concerned).

Now, let's understand each other.

shadeyinka:

I am honestly trying to understand you but sometimes your definitions are out of league and thus misunderstandings set in.

It turns out you only read my posts in which I quoted you specifically, there were many others I posted without mentioning anybody, you can find them in page 8. I think that's why you still misunderstand me.

Now you say:
"I'm saying Whatever God has not declared does not Exist!"

Does "whatever" include these examples
1. A man raped a girl and gave her HIV (note the past tense)
a. Is the rape episode inclusive of the "whatever does exist or not"?

Until the man performed the " rape-action", the account of the "rape-action" does not exist.

b. Is the reality of HIV infection of the girl inclusive of the "whatever does exist or not"?

Things don't exist until they are called into existence. God never said of Satan - " I am punishing you for I know you will one day conceive it in your heart" , Rather He said - "For you HAVE said in your heart"...
Until Satan " said in his heart", the "account of the fall" does not exist.

2. If these episode in 1 exist, has God foreseen both the rape and the HIV infection (beforehand)?

"Foresee" is us using Human language to try to accomodate God's realm&reality. Until the "rape" happened, it didn't exist (using Human standpoint). Until the man conceived it in his heart to "rape the girl", the account of the rape didn't exist (using God who judges the heart standpoint). So there is nothing to foresee.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Let me simplify this for you;
The technical difference between my view and yours using God and Lucifer's case study is:
Your view: The account of Lucifer's fall existed before Lucifer's existence ..God foreknew (through that existing account) that Lucifer will fall however God did not stop him
from misbehaving.
My view: The account of Lucifer's fall did not exist before Lucifer, since Lucifer the writer is yet to exist... There was no account to foreknow!
When Lucifer was created, he by his own actions instantaneously write his account. By freewill, he thought in his mind " I will be like the most high".... It was at this instant the "account of his fall" became existent.
I believe I simplified this completely.

MuttleyLaff, DrLiveLogic, ShadeYinka and co.
Simplified Version and contrast between My view and Yours
The technical difference between my view and yours using God and Lucifer's case study is:

Your view: The account of Lucifer's fall existed before Lucifer's existence ..God foreknew (through that existing account) that Lucifer will fall however God did not stop him from misbehaving.

My view: The account of Lucifer's fall did not exist before Lucifer, since Lucifer the writer is yet to exist... There was no account to foreknow!

When Lucifer was created, he by his own actions instantaneously write his account. By freewill, he thought in his mind " I will be like the most high".... It was at this instant the "account of his fall" became existent.

I believe I simplified my view completely so I don't want anyone to get it twisted.

God is omniscient....read the book of revelation and the story of job who God was able to forsee before time that he wouldn't curse him...
The book of Exodus also explain further on how God call moses to deliver the Israelite from Egypt,he also saw before time that pharaoh would not obliged until the 10 plague be fulfill...
God already know those that we make heaven and those that will not....he also knows those that will repent if the word of God is preached to them and those that wouldn't weather they hear the words or not....
God is indeed omniscient and just, he has given man his will...he will not force his will on them.

Blabbermouth:
I'm sure you didn't go through this before, please read it;

Now, let's understand each other.


It turns out you only read my posts in which I quoted you specifically, there were many others I posted without mentioning anybody, you can find them in page 8. I think that's why you still misunderstand me.

Until the man performed the " rape-action", the account of the "rape-action" does not exist.

The bold is NOT true!
A true statement of the same phrase would be

Until the man performed the " rape-action", the "rape-action" does not exist.

Why? In prophecy, accounts of events not yet performed are stated.
The correction to your statement ensures that God will not punish a yet to be done action!

Blabbermouth:

Things don't exist until they are called into existence. God never said of Satan - " I am punishing you for I know you will one day conceive it in your heart" , Rather He said - "For you HAVE said in your heart"...
Until Satan " said in his heart", the "account of the fall" does not exist.

Let's clarify:
Things don't exist UNTIL they are called into existence: By who?

Is the calling to existence by God or by the person in question?

Blabbermouth:

"Foresee" is us using Human language to try to accomodate God's realm&reality. Until the "rape" happened, it didn't exist (using Human standpoint). Until the man conceived it in his heart to "rape the girl", the account of the rape didn't exist (using God who judges the heart standpoint). So there is nothing to foresee.

Your conclusion is wrong because it puts God under the limitation of His creation (time). According to human limitation, the account of rape didn't exist before it was performed because the rape didn't exist.

From God point of view, He is omnipresent in time and space, therefore God knows about every detail of the rape even before it was performed.

Blabbermouth:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Let me simplify this for you;
The technical difference between my view and yours using God and Lucifer's case study is:
Your view: The account of Lucifer's fall existed before Lucifer's existence ..God foreknew (through that existing account) that Lucifer will fall however God did not stop him
from misbehaving.
My view: The account of Lucifer's fall did not exist before Lucifer, since Lucifer the writer is yet to exist... There was no account to foreknow!

What then is prophecy if God does not know the account of the future?

Gen 18:17-19:
"And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him."

Check the bolded and the highlight!

Here is another when the Prophet Samuel seem to have an account of the future for Saul.


1 Sam 10:1-7:
"Then Samuel took a vial of oil, and poured it upon his head, and kissed him, and said, Is it not because the LORD hath anointed thee to be captain over his inheritance? When thou art departed from me today, then thou shalt find two men by Rachel's sepulchre in the border of Benjamin at Zelzah; and they will say unto thee, The asses which thou wentest to seek are found: and, lo, thy father hath left the care of the asses, and sorroweth for you, saying, What shall I do for my son? Then shalt thou go on forward from thence, and thou shalt come to the plain of Tabor, and there shall meet thee three men going up to God to Beth — el, one carrying three kids, and another carrying three loaves of bread, and another carrying a bottle of wine: and they will salute thee, and give thee two loaves of bread; which thou shalt receive of their hands. After that thou shalt come to the hill of God, where is the garrison of the Philistines: and it shall come to pass, when thou art come thither to the city, that thou shalt meet a company of prophets coming down from the high place with a psaltery, and a tabret, and a pipe, and a harp , before them; and they shall prophesy : and the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man. And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee."


My Brother, is this not an account of what is yet to exist?

Blabbermouth:

When Lucifer was created, he by his own actions instantaneously write his account. By freewill, he thought in his mind " I will be like the most high".... It was at this instant the "account of his fall" became existent.
I believe I simplified this completely.

I understand your point but your conclusion is wrong. God already knows what Lucifer would do even before he was created. However, Lucifer by his own will and volition chose and implemented his rebellion against God.

Lucifer was not guilty until he acted out his iniquity and rebellion. He could have lived in obedience to God and that exactly would have been the account of God that Lucifer would live a righteous and selfless life for Jehovah.

Blabbermouth:
MuttleyLaff, DrLiveLogic, ShadeYinka and co.
Simplified Version and contrast between My view and Yours
The technical difference between my view and yours using God and Lucifer's case study is:

Your view: The account of Lucifer's fall existed before Lucifer's existence ..God foreknew (through that existing account) that Lucifer will fall however God did not stop him from misbehaving.

My view: The account of Lucifer's fall did not exist before Lucifer, since Lucifer the writer is yet to exist... There was no account to foreknow!

When Lucifer was created, he by his own actions instantaneously write his account. By freewill, he thought in his mind " I will be like the most high".... It was at this instant the "account of his fall" became existent.

I believe I simplified my view completely so I don't want anyone to get it twisted.

That is why I still keep on asking you the question of what Prophecy is.

Is prophecy a forthtelling (form of control) of what is yet to happen?
OR
Is prophecy a foretelling (relaying) of what is yet to happen?
OR
Both?

The implication of your position is that if the future doesn't exist, then foretelling doesn't exist.

Clamped.

I write to you not because you know not the truth but because you know the truth and in it is no lie. I engage you sir, not as one who is without the holyghost but as one who has the spirit of Christ in him. There was one very shocking thing I sensed from the context of your reply to me and it very much answered why we will at many cases interprete the scriptures differently.

You believe "God is Good and Also Evil(just like the Devil)". You believe " God is Light and also darkness(the devil's kind)". If we Go on and on, that would mean "God is holy and also Unholy". Also, " God is righteous and Unrighteous " still. You should remember that all unrighteousness is sin here through. This is the lens in which you read the scripture and thereof interprete from it.

You penned Isaiah 45:7 I form light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YAHWEH do all these things

Then you interpreted it without essence but just letters as:
"Here again, it says God creates both all the good and evil(I believe you mean the same Evil we say the Devil is), light and darkness(here again, the same darkness we associate with the devil)."

I should at this point let the word of God do more of the talking:

1John 1:5 "....God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

If we interpreted this with letters and not essence, then Isaiah 45:7 contradicts 1John1:5. Go read that short epistle of first John and see John by the unction of the spirit painting the Devil as the Father of darkness and God Almighty as the father of Light. Is the Holy spirit now a liar? God forbid! What then is this?

It's the differences in our perception of what " light" is and what "darkness" is. Just like Heat and Cold, cold is not in its purest essence different from heat, no! Cold is Heat at <0°C (this is subjective though). So darkness is the same phenomenon you get when you get to a particular spectrum in light. In it's purest form, darkness is light still.

Also, did you notice that Jesus down to his disciples never at any point used "Unjust" , "Evil", " Dark" and the likes for God? What shall we say then, the OT God is different from the NT God? God forbid!

Hebrews 1:1-2 "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the prophet

2. Hath in these LAST DAYS spoken unto us by His Son........"

In the Old testament, God is speaking to humans through human vices, thus, God would condescend to your realm and speak to you as though He sees things like a man.

That was why Joshua would say "Sun stand still!"... We both know sun literally has been standing still so is the Bible now a story book? No! It was recorded that from an human perspective that " the sun stood still " ... Should God then bring Joshua into the most holy place and start teaching him astronomy? There are many cases I could point out from the old testament that confirms what I am saying to be true. This is what many atheist do not know and I am ever grateful that Sir. JesusJnr2020 did perfect justice to that recently.

When Christ came (C'mon here, you yourself called him "God-Incarnated"wink he wasn't speaking anymore as one from human reality, no, as the gap between God and man has been closed by Christ, so Jesus directly expressed heavenly realities on earth. Nowhere did he call himself or call God " Evil"(that version that is in similitude with the Devil's). Nowhere did he call himself or call God "Dark"... Neither did his followers.

Now Sir, let's see what Evil is, Let's see what Darkness means from a human perspective:

Evil is synonymous to " immoral" (oxford dictionary)

To kill a human being is evil

To steal from a neighbor is evil

To take children and women as slaves is evil

To have sex with a woman who is not your wife is evil....

Do you know or have you forgotten that all these same things are also Good?

The same God that told the Israelites "Thou shall not kill"... In the same book commanded the same Israelites to kill/stone anyone that practice witchcraft? What shall we say then, since killing is evil, is killing a witch evil? Ha ha, you see?

That same sex with another man's wife that is evil becomes good when the man dies and the woman gets married to you.. What shall we say, that you committed adultery? God forbid!

Evil is not a new concept, darkness is not a new concept. Cold is no different from Hot, it is not a new concept.

What shall we now say, that God has no knowledge of how to kill(since " killing " is evil? Ha ha, you see? Is killing not evil(to humans), is killing not also Judgement(to God)?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Also, don't mistake the Hebrew word " Ra'ah" which means "calamity" for "Rasha" which means "moral wickedness" (that evil associated with Satan).
The word used in Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations3:38 and the rest is "Ra'ah" which is "Calamity" NOT "Rasha" which is "moral wickedness". You can check Hebrew documents or use ESV. ESV uses " Calamity" not "Evil"!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That Evil you speak of(Rasha) is not some new reality, it's a phenomenon under the same "Evil"(Ra'ah) which in all purity is still Good. Now, that might sound puzzling, but it's simple.

If God tells you to "Kill that woman!" and you killed her, to a human that is evil, but to God, that evil is Good because he willed/commanded it and you OBEYED!(Ra'ah)

If you "Killed that woman" outside God's will, whether it looked Good to every other humans or not, to God, it is that EVIL HE CALLS EVIL!(Rasha)

Let the Word of God speak again:

The first time, Moses was instructed to "strike the rock", he struck it and water Gushed forth, to God it is Good and to the Israelites also, it is Good.

The second time, he wasn't instructed to strike but he struck anyways, still, water gushed forth and they drank. To the Israelites, it is " Good " but to God, it was not!

Do you notice that Adam didn't even know what "Good" is?

Did you notice that there wasn't a separate fruit for knowledge of evil and good? We only have the "tree of knowledge of Good&Evil". Now compare this with realizing that there was no Tree of Life&Death and also no Tree of Death, we only had the Tree of Life. Ha ha, you see?
The question is - How did Adam now die?

DrLiveLogic:
..........

Summary: Your position leaves many gaps, loopholes and contradictions as expected because you've not correctly defined god's original state of existence and still think in normal human terms.

ojaysam25:
God is omniscient....read the book of revelation and the story of job who God was able to forsee before time that he wouldn't curse him...
The book of Exodus also explain further on how God call moses to deliver the Israelite from Egypt,he also saw before time that pharaoh would not obliged until the 10 plague be fulfill...

God already know those that we make heaven and those that will not....he also knows those that will repent if the word of God is preached to them and those that wouldn't weather they hear the words or not....
God is indeed omniscient and just, he has given man his will...he will not force his will on them.

So why the waste of time in preaching after God has predestined those who will hear and those who will not hear?
Isn't it boring just keeping people in pains all these years instead of just taking those that will listen before hand and throwing the rest in wherever he feels?

Maximus69:


So why the waste of time in preaching after God has predestined those who will hear and those who will not hear?
Isn't it boring just keeping people in pains all these years instead of just taking those that will listen before hand and throwing the rest in wherever he feels?

This one sef dey...

Blabbermouth:

This one sef dey...

JWs just focus on training members to entertain their unquestionably stupid inquiries regarding true Faith, if we are to ask them thought provoking questions many of them will develop brain tumor!

Just imagine saying someone who "regretted creating humans" {Genesis 6:} began negotiating with one of his imperfect creatures over a city he's about to destroy {Genesis 18:20-33} he humbly listened to the plea of Moses over the stupidity and stubbornness of the Israelites {Exodus 32:7-14} how can you say he has predestined what each person will choose to do torí Olórun?

They don't study God's word in order to know him, they just presume what they feel he should be just like the Atheists who continued blaming him even when they committed costly blunders themselves!

Maximus69:


So why the waste of time in preaching after God has predestined those who will hear and those who will not hear?
Isn't it boring just keeping people in pains all these years instead of just taking those that will listen before hand and throwing the rest in wherever he feels?

Well,his ways are not our ways...the preaching is meant for those who will listen and be convicted just like he has predestined...even in the Court of law a person might be caught red handed but would still be taken to court for judgment..

ojaysam25:

Well,his ways are not our ways...the preaching is meant for those who will listen and be convicted just like he has predestined...even in the Court of law a person might be caught red handed but would still be taken to court for judgment..

Interesting
So, who's responsible for the misfortune in this world?

ojaysam25:

Well,his ways are not our ways...the preaching is meant for those who will listen and be convicted just like he has predestined...even in the Court of law a person might be caught red handed but would still be taken to court for judgment..

That's why it's not easy to understand him just as you're comparing his judgment to what happens in the human court where cases need expatiation before judgment!
When he judged those who perished in the day of Noah, when he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, when he destroyed Jericho there was no court sitting!

Maximus69:


That's why it's not easy to understand him just as you're comparing his judgment to what happens in the human court where cases need expatiation before judgment!
When he judged those who perished in the day of Noah, when he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, when he destroyed Jericho there was no court sitting!

He is the judge and he owns the court(world)...whatever judgement he laid down shouldn't be question....I only make reference to the human court due to the ideology that since God already knows the outcome of the world, there is no need for judgement....
Yet I doubt if you also question the human court for judging a criminal that was caught red handed,don't you think he should be taken straight to prison without judgement as well....or is the ideology applicable only to God....if that is the case don't you think you're been biased. ..

ojaysam25:

He is the judge and he owns the court(world)...whatever judgement he laid down shouldn't be question....I only make reference to the human court due to the ideology that since he already knows the outcome of the world, there is no need for judgement....
Yet I doubt if you also question the human court for judging a criminal that was caught red handed,don't you think he should be taken straight to prison without judgement as well....or is the ideology applicable only to God....if that is the case don't you think you're been biased. ..

Humans caught red handed often deny that's why they must be found guilty before judgment that's why a court sitting must be!

My question is did God had such sitting before judging Noah's contemporaries, Sodom and Gomorrah or Jericho?

Maximus69:


Humans caught red handed often deny that's why they must be found guilty before judgment that's why a court sitting must be!

My question is did God had such sitting before judging Noah's contemporaries, Sodom and Gomorrah or Jericho?

Even if it was the judge that caught him red handed....there will still be a court hearing...am I right?
Like I said earlier the preaching is meant for those that will hear the word and be convicted that is why the world has not be judged completely....
God still left Noah and his family,rechab in Jericho,and lots and his daughters in Sodom and Gomorah probably because he forsaw their conviction...

ojaysam25:

Even if it was the judge that caught him red handed....there will still be a court hearing...am I right?
Like I said earlier the preaching is meant for those that will hear the word and be convicted that is why the world has not be judged completely....
God still left Noah and his family,rechab in Jericho,and lots and his daughters in Sodom and Gomorah probably because he forsaw their conviction...

The human judge can't pronounce judgment even if he/she is present as an eyewitness according to human law a Witness must step down to witness not to judge!

So he/she can't serve been both Witness and judge at the same time on the same case!

Maximus69:


The human judge can't pronounce judgment even if he/she is present as an eyewitness according to human law a Witness must step down to witness not to judge!

So he/she can't serve been both Witness and judge at the same time on the same case!

Irrespective of wether he becomes the witness or not....what am saying is no matter the overwhelming evidence even if it is on live TV and the entire world sees it... there will still be judgement before jail time...stop twisting it...meanwhile am done with you.

ojaysam25:

Irrespective of wether he becomes the witness or not....what am saying is no matter the overwhelming evidence even if it is on live TV and the entire world sees it... there will still be judgement before jail time...stop twisting it...meanwhile am done with you.

Next time don't start what you can't finish!

Blabbermouth:
I write to you not because you know not the truth but because you know the truth and in it is no lie. I engage you sir, not as one who is without the holyghost but as one who has the spirit of Christ in him. There was one very shocking thing I sensed from the context of your reply to me and it very much answered why we will at many cases interprete the scriptures differently.

You believe "God is Good and Also Evil(just like the Devil)". You believe " God is Light and also darkness(the devil's kind)". If we Go on and on, that would mean "God is holy and also Unholy". Also, " God is righteous and Unrighteous " still. You should remember that all unrighteousness is sin here through. This is the lens in which you read the scripture and thereof interprete from it.

You penned Isaiah 45:7 I form light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YAHWEH do all these things

Then you interpreted it without essence but just letters as:
"Here again, it says God creates both all the good and evil(I believe you mean the same Evil we say the Devil is), light and darkness(here again, the same darkness we associate with the devil)."

I should at this point let the word of God do more of the talking:

1John 1:5 "....God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

If we interpreted this with letters and not essence, then Isaiah 45:7 contradicts 1John1:5. Go read that short epistle of first John and see John by the unction of the spirit painting the Devil as the Father of darkness and God Almighty as the father of Light. Is the Holy spirit now a liar? God forbid! What then is this?

It's the differences in our perception of what " light" is and what "darkness" is. Just like Heat and Cold, cold is not in its purest essence different from heat, no! Cold is Heat at <0°C (this is subjective though). So darkness is the same phenomenon you get when you get to a particular spectrum in light. In it's purest form, darkness is light still.

Also, did you notice that Jesus down to his disciples never at any point used "Unjust" , "Evil", " Dark" and the likes for God? What shall we say then, the OT God is different from the NT God? God forbid!

Hebrews 1:1-2 "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the prophet

2. Hath in these LAST DAYS spoken unto us by His Son........"

In the Old testament, God is speaking to humans through human vices, thus, God would condescend to your realm and speak to you as though He sees things like a man.

That was why Joshua would say "Sun stand still!"... We both know sun literally has been standing still so is the Bible now a story book? No! It was recorded that from an human perspective that " the sun stood still " ... Should God then bring Joshua into the most holy place and start teaching him astronomy? There are many cases I could point out from the old testament that confirms what I am saying to be true. This is what many atheist do not know and I am ever grateful that Sir. JesusJnr2020 did perfect justice to that recently.

When Christ came (C'mon here, you yourself called him "God-Incarnated"wink he wasn't speaking anymore as one from human reality, no, as the gap between God and man has been closed by Christ, so Jesus directly expressed heavenly realities on earth. Nowhere did he call himself or call God " Evil"(that version that is in similitude with the Devil's). Nowhere did he call himself or call God "Dark"... Neither did his followers.

Now Sir, let's see what Evil is, Let's see what Darkness means from a human perspective:

Evil is synonymous to " immoral" (oxford dictionary)

To kill a human being is evil

To steal from a neighbor is evil

To take children and women as slaves is evil

To have sex with a woman who is not your wife is evil....

Do you know or have you forgotten that all these same things are also Good?

The same God that told the Israelites "Thou shall not kill"... In the same book commanded the same Israelites to kill/stone anyone that practice witchcraft? What shall we say then, since killing is evil, is killing a witch evil? Ha ha, you see?

That same sex with another man's wife that is evil becomes good when the man dies and the woman gets married to you.. What shall we say, that you committed adultery? God forbid!

Evil is not a new concept, darkness is not a new concept. Cold is no different from Hot, it is not a new concept.

What shall we now say, that God has no knowledge of how to kill(since " killing " is evil? Ha ha, you see? Is killing not evil(to humans), is killing not also Judgement(to God)?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Also, don't mistake the Hebrew word " Ra'ah" which means "calamity" for "Rasha" which means "moral wickedness" (that evil associated with Satan).
The word used in Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations3:38 and the rest is "Ra'ah" which is "Calamity" NOT "Rasha" which is "moral wickedness". You can check Hebrew documents or use ESV. ESV uses " Calamity" not "Evil"!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That Evil you speak of(Rasha) is not some new reality, it's a phenomenon under the same "Evil"(Ra'ah) which in all purity is still Good. Now, that might sound puzzling, but it's simple.

If God tells you to "Kill that woman!" and you killed her, to a human that is evil, but to God, that evil is Good because he willed/commanded it and you OBEYED!(Ra'ah)

If you "Killed that woman" outside God's will, whether it looked Good to every other humans or not, to God, it is that EVIL HE CALLS EVIL!(Rasha)

Let the Word of God speak again:

The first time, Moses was instructed to "strike the rock", he struck it and water Gushed forth, to God it is Good and to the Israelites also, it is Good.

The second time, he wasn't instructed to strike but he struck anyways, still, water gushed forth and they drank. To the Israelites, it is " Good " but to God, it was not!

Do you notice that Adam didn't even know what "Good" is?
Did you notice that there wasn't a separate fruit for knowledge of evil and good? We only have the "tree of knowledge of Good&Evil". Now compare this with realizing that there was no Tree of Life&Death and also no Tree of Death, we only had the Tree of Life. Ha ha, you see?

Blabbermouth, first off, you just gave a long, melodramatic speech that had nothing to do with addressing my outlined assessments of your answers to the nine questions asked and the tenth nor was it even sincere what you did with the word 'evil' used all over OT, just to save your doctrine. As it stands, your obvious contradictions from your 9 answers are still witnessing against you.

Second, you've decided for me my stance when I've clearly never declared it. While there is some common points between yours and mine, shadeyinka's position, which I clearly said, I formerly held for a long time, before accepting another, is still more balanced and impeccable than yours.

I told you already, this is not a matter you just table out as loosely and prematurely as you have. There are many prerequisites to be settled before this. The original divine state, the origin of light and darkness, the triuneness of God, the real meaning/essence of creation, and much more. I cannot even attempt to present my stance until these heavyweights are properly dealt with and that's why I never showed up on your thread if not being mentioned on it and only questioned you, even though I have longed to do a thread on this and many such long before yours, but for the available time and priority.

Your position is one which has been suggested before you were born, yet none offering it has satisfied the many critiques attached to it, just like yourself have not with my critiques but as it stands, is clearly shown to be laden with loopholes, gaps and contradictions.

I have achieved my objective with you for now. Go sincerely think about the contradictions and you might arrive at a better and more complete one. The key too, lies in the mysterious original state of God.

I'll mention you in my upcoming threads on these, though I know not how soon.

Blabbermouth:
MuttleyLaff, DrLiveLogic, shadeyinka and co.
Simplified Version and contrast between My view and Yours
The technical difference between my view and yours using God and Lucifer's case study is:

Your view:
The account of Lucifer's fall existed before Lucifer's existence ..God foreknew (through that existing account) that Lucifer will fall however God did not stop him from misbehaving.

I categorically refute that "The account of Lucifer's fall existed before Lucifer's existence" claim is my view.

Just the way God knew prophet Jeremiah before he was conceived from the fertilisation of his dad's and mother's, before he was formed in his mum's womb and even off course before prophet Jeremiah was born, is the same means that God foreknew Lucifer will fall.

The foreknowledge He had about Lucifer's fall and not standing in the way of Lucifer's choice to misbehave, is the same foreknowledge He had of A&E's fall, and also did not stop or standing in their choices to misbehave

Blabbermouth:
My view: The account of Lucifer's fall did not exist before Lucifer ...

No one has advanced the notion that Lucifer's fall did exist/happen before Lucifer

Blabbermouth:
... since Lucifer the writer is yet to exist... There was no account to foreknow!

"Yes, God even knows how many hairs you have on your head. Don’t be afraid.
(i.e. Indeed the very hairs of your head are all numbered)"
- Luke 12:7

Your warped view of God, is most certainly distorted because looking at Him through the prism of your own arrogance and ignorance.

Are you saying for someone who easily knows the number of hairs on your head, it is impossicant for God to not know everything that needs to be known about Lucifer, even before Lucifer incorporeally existed, hmm?

Blabbermouth:
When Lucifer was created, he by his own actions instantaneously write his account.

Similarly it was by Pharaoh's own actions, his own decisions, his own choices, that he lived out the story of his life
Also, similarly it was by A&E's own actions, their own actions, their own decisions, their own choices, that they lived out the story of their lives

Blabbermouth:
By freewill, he thought in his mind "I will be like the most high".... It was at this instant the "account of his fall" became existent.

Smh look at you making a dog's dinner of the Lucifer's fall from grace to grass whole thing
Fyi, Lucifer, just as with Pharaoh was, was all along restrained and kept in check by God, but the moment God stepped back and hands-off, sin was found in Lucifer, who prior had been perfect in all his way of behaving

Blabbermouth:
I believe I simplified my view completely so I don't want anyone to get it twisted.

You are already twisted, so need for anyone to help you twist further your well established already twisted view