Blabbermouth:

You said time is the measure of interval between two events... So where am I travelling to?
Time is abstract, I don't know how you want me to fit that to real events... The best you can call that machine is "future machine".
Again sir, there is nothing like future! If I enter a time travel machine, I will only see illusions not some nonexistent future.
Please sir, it's like telling me to assume God does not exist. I keep ringing it I'm your ears, future does not exist!

Blabbermouth:

There is nothing like "Future"!

shadeyinka:

You should at least own up to misrepresenting my views.

shadeyinka:

What then is Prophecy if the future does not exist?
Why is the book of Revelation speaking of a nonexistent future?

Blabbermouth:
This is the light of the matter:
There is nothing like "Future"! It doesn't exist!
The only events that are certain to happen are those that have been declared, predetermined and Orchestrated by God, any other thing else you term with the word "future" are virtual and not real.
ShadeYinka sir, God does not predetermine anyone one for hell. Also, Your end is undefined and nonexistent until you CHOOSE! That is the principal reason why you are living, why you were created, and why you have a lifespan on earth.
God is asking you - "Are you in or are you out? Choose!"

MuttleyLaff, this might be hard to understand but trust me, with time you will come to settle with it. If you mean God has an absolute foreknowledge of things He himself determined, then you are 100% right. If you mean God's absolute foreknowledge covers nonexistent things like "where you will end up", then that's wrong.

Maximus\69 and Dappa\D, fortunately Jehovah doesn't use selective foreknowledge. He knows everything that exist and every minute info in the world. However, He has no account of "where you will end up" because that will only be made existent when you CHOOSE!
ShadeYinka, a time travel nonsense is impossible! You will only be able to time travel into what God has declared to happen, and we both know Jehovah will not subject that privilege to physical means.

Blabbermouth:
God: I will harden pharaoh's heart and he will not let you go.
God orchestrated it!

Blabbermouth:
I haven't mentioned Satan yet, but he is also a very important figure in talks like this.
Like i said, freewill is not totally "free" and a lot depends on the domain in which it is exercised.
When I say domain, I mean LIFE and DEATH.
God is the source of the Domain of Life
Satan is the source of the Domain of death.
If you operate in God's domain, you freewill is subjected to his will. He guides your path, direct your feet and do so many things.
Fortunately for Christians but unfortunately for unbelievers, If you operate in the Devil's domain, he also has some right over you. To an extent, he can guide your path, to an extent he can direct your feet.
We thank God for Jesus who conquered this death and brought us into life.

MuttleyLaff:
For DrLiveLogic and any interested interlocutor(s):

1/ Name who principally or primary are in the Godhead (i.e. Elohim) of Genesis 1:27
2/ At what point did God, the Spirit become God the Father, what point did the Word, (i.e. Logos) become the Son, and what point did the seven distinct expression of the God, the Spirit, become the Holy Spirit?
3/ Is God resigned and/or limited to just Three Persons?
4/ What is God's name? What is the implication of this name that God didnt reveal to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?
5/ Is the answer given in #4a above really God's personal name?
6/ What fundamental problems was God solving that necessitated the creation of mankind? (i.e. A&E and their progeny)
7/ Did God have an objective to achieve and purpose for creating A&E?
8/ Would you agree that "Though this be madness, yet there is method in it?"
9/ Is it hard or impossible for God to project Himself out, so to simultaneously and/or concurrently exist on earth and Heaven?
10/ Give two examples of a Being that has demonstrated the ability and power to see into humans' heart, know their thoughts, tell what they're thinking, or what they desire. In other words, here is one from 1 Samuel 9:19 and 1 Samuel 10:19&26, so please give your two different examples please

DrLiveLogic:
1/ Father, Word and Spirit
2/ Father, Word and Spirit have no beginning. But the Word became Son of Man in the incarnation.
3/ Depends on your definition of 'person'. But if you take your soul as one person, YHWH is one person too. The 3 are aspects of this one person.
4/ Don't know what you're getting at but there are many names referred to as God's. Depends on the frame you want it.
5/ N/A
6/ I don't understand you or how this connects to subject of thread. Maybe you should tell
7/ As explained, the destiny of Man is to have the experience of the Godhead, not merely the angelic or supernatural.
8/ Not understood.
9/ When you see Father and Word in heaven and Word as Son on earth at the same time, you should be satisfied. John 3:13.
10/ Don't see the essence of this. If your examples are true, then we can go with them, can't we?

Blabbermouth:
Anyone that understands it perfectly will automatically see the answer to bugging questions like these:
1. Why Did God create Lucifer knowing He will fall?
2. Why Did God put Adam and eve in Eden foreknowing that they will disobey?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Let me help out a bit...
According to the Bible, God created Lucifer "perfect". According to God's definition of perfection, perfection is not subjected to a time frame. If God said Lucifer was perfect, then that means He didn't create Lucifer foreknowing that Lucifer will fall. No! God didn't declare that! A non-existent Lucifer did not declare a fall for himself!
That " Lucifer will fall" was a nonexistent account, there is no future! Lucifer himself declared his fall, gave sin a definition, and invented the domain of death when he said "I will"...
God did not create Lucifer foreknowing he will fall!
You should be able to answer Adam's own, it's much simpler.
(ShadeYinka, MuttleyLaff, Maximus69)

MuttleyLaff:

---

---

---

I have various times tried to extract these "Why" and/or "What" info from others, but to no avail.

The last poster I asked similar questions, threw them most back in my face, claiming, dont understand, not understood et cetera

Blabbermouth:
Since I declare my END myself, can't God know where I will choose for myself before I choose?
Answer: Until you CHOOSE, where you will END is undefined. Before you chose, your end doesn't exist and like we've illustrated, God (whether by foreknowledge or absolute omniscience) have no account of Non-existent things. Maximus69 was right when he said "God does not know If I will repent or not". However, I want him to enlighten him a notch that God does not know because " my end does not exist until I choose "Remember, God has no account of nonexistent things. Yea, God has no account of where you will end up. Why? It does not exist!

Blabbermouth:
You've Just crossed the line! You've just made God unjust..Is that what the scripture means to you? Oh God, please open His eyes that He may see what I so desire him see.

Imagine God sending Lucifer to eternal torment when he already foreknew what he will become?

Blabbermouth:
If you were Lucifer, I'm sure you will cry and say - "Lord! Why did you create me?" "How did I choose death for myself before you created me?"... Don't you get it? There is no basis for judgement if this is the case.

Blabbermouth:
Mistake bawo? Didn't you hear God claim he made him perfect. Is God's definition of perfection now a time frame something?

Blabbermouth:
Ha ha! Did I not explain that Lucifer invented death himself? It's like you don't even understand 10% of what I'm saying.

Blabbermouth:
Did I not tell you that Angels can orchestrate an end for themselves?
Did I not explain?!
Sir, take a break... Come back, start from the first post of page 8 and read again.

Blabbermouth:
ShadeYinka read this again.. Perhaps the way I engaged you before might have vexed you, I'm sorry. Now read with the mindset of learning something new.

Blabbermouth:

I was aggressive when engaging you because I wanted you to see something yourself.
If we use the case of;
1. God and a foetus
2. God and Lucifer
3. God and Adam
We both know that 100 years from now, you will never be able to explain how a non-existent Lucifer chose "Fall" for itself. We both know that 1000 years from now, no one will be able to explain how an unconscious foetus chose hell for itself. That's the truth and the truth is true.

Blabbermouth:

The revelations were gotten from a sealed book. Who wrote this book?
The book of revelations is a fulfillment of Isaiah 46:10
In prophecy, we have foretelling and forthtelling...
When you or God forthtell, you exercise Isaiah 46:10
When you foretell, you are relating what God has forthtold.
God, Hezekiah and Isaiah is a typical example.
God declaring Hezekiah's death (forthtelling)
Isaiah telling Hezekiah that he will die soon (foretelling)

shadeyinka:

What of if the teacher somehow has a "time machine" by which he could travel through time?

frank317:


If the teacher somehow the teacher has a time machine and comes back and talk the students out of making noise or does some other actions that would ensure the students from making noise then what he saw was a PROBABLE feature.

But if through the time machine the teacher sees that nothing can be done to change what he saw.. That means the students action has been predestined and their free will is just an illusion.

shadeyinka:

Sorry, the future isn't cast in stone. The future is determined by our previous and current choices, actions or inactions.

If the future is determined by the past and present, it means that by warnings and guidance, errors leading to catastrophic futures are avoided and a blissful future assured.

The Seer sees only that which the subject had chosen in his REAL TIME in spite of the constraints and aids he has received.

DrLiveLogic:
MuttleyLaff, the realm of knowledge is so vast, we have to limit it to boundaries and premises.

DrLiveLogic:
When you ask what problem God tried to solve when he created man, you prolly have no idea how vast the answer can be and the many angles it could be approached from. My thread has a focus, if you're presenting any questions, they should be within the context. I told you I don't understand how your question relates, you'd have done well to explain or to go on to answer the question and hence show its point.

DrLiveLogic:
Your position on the angels as sons of God is way off the bar btw

DrLiveLogic:
and I'm shocked at what you tryna pull of with "Father of lights". But as I make out time, I'll try to come back to it.

DrLiveLogic:
Like I told Blabbermouth, he seems to have a struggle with foreknowledge and predestination. He has made some good points here which form a part of my perspective which I lightly scratched when I was handling the Beginning Ending aspect of the Word and Father with JWs, but not circumspect because there are many questions his position doesn't satisfy. Like how Light had to produce a light(lucifer) that produced darkness. Where then did the darkness or its possibility arise from, if its grandparent is Light without darkness.

DrLiveLogic:
Also what does God then mean by claiming to know good and evil in Genesis 3:22. Again, when you look at his position here,

DrLiveLogic:
it begs the question, after you choose, does God then know your end?

DrLiveLogic:
If so, has he then updated his knowledge and become more than what he initially was?

DrLiveLogic:
and yet many other questions. Again I have to say he has (whether deliberately or not) totally misrepresented shadeyinka's view forcing it unnecessarily to juxtapose freewill, foreknowledge and predestination. Shadeyinka's position which obviously does not juxtapose these is one I held on to for years and I can tell you it is balanced and seemingly impeccable. As a matter of fact, it is still a good one to teach people towards perfection. However, I had to drop it after some time, not really because there were logical loopholes in it I could see but just because I saw something else I never saw before.
There are certain concepts if not properly defined will continue to be confusing and irregular. When you talk about foreknowledge, you have to first define what knowledge is in God's terms ...

DrLiveLogic:
... and how exactly God knows things.

DrLiveLogic:
Again you have to correctly explain God's original state of existence. This is key to all other knowledge about God.

DrLiveLogic:
This also sets the stage for the origin of good and evil. This is why I'm yet to do the thread on this subject.

DrLiveLogic:
There are many prerequisites to settle before this including Triune God that seems to be so misrepresented, even by Blabbermouth himself. As a matter of fact, my last thread on the son of God movie will give a good idea of where we're headed. I am hoping I'll do this subject in good time though ...

DrLiveLogic:
... Till then, let Blabbermouth try justifying the points raised and as well explain how God predicts the future of both the good and the evil, like Jacob and Esau etc., before they even make their choices and whose names are not in the book of life ...

DrLiveLogic:
... and why then God created these people or how they could create a reality that didn't exist in God as against the law of energy conservation.

frank317:

U can't call it a future when it's determined by our actions. If what I will do today will determine tomorrow then tomorrow cannot be seen, tomorrow can't exist because it is waiting for my action today to exist.

frank317:

Only thing that can be said to be future are probable causes of today's action... Which could be just intelligent guesswork.

If the seer sees my 20years time action, can he still be wrong? Can I use my free will to make a different choice? Or must I use my freewill to do only what the seer saw? If u u chose the later... How exactly is that free will

frank317:

What exactly is the function of this seeing ability? If God's sees I will sin tomorrow and he can't be wrong, how does that affect anything?

frank317:

U can't call it a future when it's determined by our actions. If what I will do today will determine tomorrow then tomorrow cannot be seen, tomorrow can't exist because it is waiting for my action today to exist.
Only thing that can be said to be future are probable causes of today's action... Which could be just intelligent guesswork.


If the seer sees my 20years time action, can he still be wrong? Can I use my free will to make a different choice? Or must I use my freewill to do only what the seer saw? If u u chose the later... How exactly is that free will

What exactly is the function of this seeing ability? If God's sees I will sin tomorrow and he can't be wrong, how does that affect anything?

Blabbermouth:
IS GOD ACTUALLY OMNISCIENT?
Just as the case with His omnipotent ability, the omniscient ability of God is also confined by the NATURE OF WHO HE IS. God is light, He is Life, and He is Existence Himself, therefore darkness, death and nonexistence cannot be found in him.
If God were to sneak peek into the Knowledge of everything (I'm using JW's rendition here), including things that were, things that are, and the Future, there are things God will never see!
God is omniscient but He has no account of anyone that can Kill Him!
God is omniscient but He has no account for who His creator His!
God is omniscient but He has no account of the plausibility of anyone greater that him!
Hey beloved, don't get me wrong! I'm not saying God was created or God can be killed by somebody. I want you to be enlightened that God has no account of some nonsensical information like;
1. His creator
2. His Nemesis
3. His superior
Do you know why? Because THEY DON'T EXIST!
A being that created God, A being that can kill God, A being that can be superior to God DOES NOT EXIST! Consequently, God has no account of information about them.

Here is the Key Point
God has no account of things that DO NOT EXIST or Information that Does not Exist!
I've heard many dicey(or say, tricky) Atheistic Questions like
1. If God is omniscient, does He know who created Him?
2. If God is omniscient, does He know who can Kill Him?
God is omniscient but His omniscience is of EVERY EXISTING THINGS OR INFORMATION!
God's Omniscience does not stretch to Non-existent things as His nature is EXISTENCE itself!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Now Let me answer the Question; DOES GOD KNOW THE FUTURE?
Until God says "Be!", it is impossible for anything to call itself into existence. Until God says " Let there be light!", it is impossible for light to call itself into existence. For we know that God is one, and there is none like him. Until God says "Let this happen!", it is impossible for it to happen. Until God declares an End, it is impossible for an End to exist by itself
However....
God in His omniscient power (in the confines of his nature) created beings with active forces and will, yea, Angels, Humans, and other spiritual beings he created them. God gave them free will and made it such that the free will of each person gives him/her an ability to declare His End. Howbeit, God is the prime Declarer.
Like they say - "Man proposes, God disposes"
Specifically, there are just 2 being capable of declaring your end. Yea, just two being that can determine your future; 1. God 2. You
For we know who God is, and what we know is true, therein lies our confidence that God (in most cases) does not/will not declare your end.
Since God has not/does not/ will not declare your future, YOUR FUTURE DOES NOT EXIST!
Now, you might be quick to ask this question;
Since I declare my END myself, can't God know where I will choose for myself before I choose?
Answer: Until you CHOOSE, where you will END is undefined. Before you chose, your end doesn't exist and like we've illustrated, God (whether by foreknowledge or absolute omniscience) have no account of Non-existent things.
Maximus69 was right when he said "God does not know If I will repent or not". However, I want him to enlighten him a notch that God does not know because " my end does not exist until I choose"
Remember, God has no account of nonexistent things. Yea, God has no account of where you will end up. Why? It does not exist!

(ShadeYinka, MuttleyLaff, Maximus69)

MuttleyLaff:
"And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast.
They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life that belongs to the Lamb who was slaughtered before the world was made."
- Revelation 13:8

"The beast that you saw—it was, and now is no more, but is about to come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction.
And those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world
will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be."
- Revelation 17:8

Please do a exegete and hermeneutic on the two above Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8 verses

MuttleyLaff:

---

---

---

I have various times tried to extract these "Why" and/or "What" info from others, but to no avail.

The last poster I asked similar questions, threw them most back in my face, claiming, dont understand, not understood et cetera

DrLiveLogic:

Muttleylaff, the realm of knowledge is so vast, we have to limit it to boundaries and premises.

Like I told Blabbermouth, he seems to have a struggle with foreknowledge and predestination. He has made some good points here which form a part of my perspective which I lightly scratched when I was handling the Beginning Ending aspect of the Word and Father with JWs, but not circumspect because there are many questions his position doesn't satisfy. Like
1/ how Light had to produce a light(lucifer) that produced darkness. Where then did the darkness or its possibility arise from, if its grandparent is Light without darkness.

2/ Also what does God then mean by claiming to know good and evil in Genesis 3:22.

it begs the question,
3/ after you choose, does God then know your end?

4/ If so, has he then updated his knowledge and become more than what he initially was? and yet many other questions.

Again I have to say he has(whether deliberately or not) totally misrepresented shadeyinka's view forcing it unnecessarily to juxtapose freewill, foreknowledge and predestination. He also unmeritoriously makes an unreasonable case with a foetus choosing hell which is totally out of line with shade's view, like how can you not still get it.

There are many prerequisites to settle before this including Triuneness of God that seems to be also misunderstood, even by Blabbermouth himself.

Till then, let Blabbermouth try justifying the points raised and as well explain:

5/ how God predicts the future of both the good and the evil, like Jacob and Esau etc., before they even make their choices and

6/ whose names are not in the book of life and why then God created these people

7/ and how they could create a reality that didn't exist in God. Is the end then different from the beginning?

8/ What is meant in Isaiah 45:7, how God forms light and creates darkness and good and evil.
Your thesis so far seems like you've bitten off quite a bit more than can chew. This subject is much deeper than you've presented. The reason I said many prerequisites must be settled before this.

9/ As for his case with Isaiah 46:10, he ended up just replacing God's forthtelling with foreknowledge which are two distinct attributes of God and he does both. Forthtelling is how he brings his foreknowledge to play in this movie.

Blabbermouth:

Smiles... Maybe God sat down one day and created a book called the "Book of Life", he opened it and he started writing names - 1. MuttleyLaff 2. Blabbermouth 3. Shade 4. Maximus 5. Frank 317 and He intentionally decided to omit the following names 1. Reed 2. Buda 3. Otem 4. Mj.Bolt.... Is that it?
If so, where is the freewill? Don't get it twisted cus I'm sticking to the context of the bible where is explicitly said " Whose names were not written "... Consequently then, there are those " Whose name was written " before the foundation of the world.
OR
What shall we say again, that Muttley, Shade, Blabber, and Maximus in their non-existent state wrote their names themselves? And Otem, Reed, Bolt, Buda and co. exercising freewill decide not to write their own names? Hahahahahahaha hahahahahahaha hahahahahahaha... Let's be honest with ourselves then, if this is the case, religion is a joke.
Seriously now...
Christ was slain 2000+ years ago and God is saying Christ has been slain before the foundation of the world. Ha ha! Who then is wrong? Is it God? God forbid!
Like I said, God is more than a Person... He is higher and infinite, more of a realm&reality than limiting him to a person. In God's realm, everything is NOW! no later, no next year! Everything to him is NOW!
It was when I caught this revelation did I realize that everyone is making a mistake by thinking God has some forward button for going into some nonexistent future.
Having established all this;
We should both then agree to the truth that no literal names were written!
In this case again, Bro. Maximus69 God's word was right.

MuttleyLaff:
Please tell, was Lucifer coerced by God to misbehave, hmm? Was Lucifer forced or threatened to usurp God, hmm?

Even in the garden, no one questioned God, why in the first place did He, without their permissions, create them. Not Adam, not Eve and not the serpent either. A&E didnt question God over why the TKGE was placed within their reach, so what foxtrot uniform charlie kilo are you talking about here

God didnt say He made Lucifer perfect nah, abeggy. You were "perfect in your ways" is quite different from "made perfect," nah. If Satan was made perfect, Satan wouldn't have fallen from grace to grass off his pedestal

Though I am not made perfect, I try to be perfect in my ways, as much as I have the grace and will power too

Can Lucifer saved himself from the lake of fire. Can Lucifer save death from being thrown into the Lake of Fire with him?. Can Lucifer stop and/or end death, hmm?

You are ascribing undue and unmerited credit to Lucifer

Smh. You are so far up yourself, that you are becoming increasingly less interesting, less making sense and more boring

Maximus69:


Please keep saying "God's word was right"

shadeyinka:

Now you see why I initially assumed you were a JW?
You have taken their teachings and unknowingly made it your doctrine.

Jehovah's witnesses believe that God CANNOT see the future. But if God can't, then why did He have His Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Why did the bible say "to those God has Foreseen, He predestined"?, What is prophecy if not relaying the FUTURE?

It didn't make you see that your posture has made God with the capabilities of mere mortals and God a gambler. You didn't see that your position has made God vulnerable to any of His creatures who dare execute a coup de tat? You unknowingly have reduced God to the Greek gods probably Zeus (for Zeus doesn't know the future )

I'm sorry, my own God is NOT like that. My God is omnipresent in both space and time.

shadeyinka:

It seems three words relating to God you either not understand or totally misrepresent
1. Foreknowledge
2. Predestination
3. Freewill

If I get you perfectly, your claim is that it is impossible for God to have a Foreknowledge of things.

But if that is the case,
1. What is prophecy

Acts 21:11:
"And when he was come to us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus said the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that ownes this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles."

For it seems (according to your doctrine) that the Holy Spirit conspired with the Jews in Jerusalem to bind Paul for going to Jerusalem. Wasn't he warned not to go?

Blabbermouth:

1. At what point is one's name written in the book of life?

2. Under what conditions and at what point can one's name be blotted out from the book of life?