Hebrews 10:26-27,31 KJV
For if we "sin wilfully" after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth NO MORE sacrifice for sins,

[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

[31] It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

It's unscriptural.

davidinchrist:
Hebrews 10:26-27,31 KJV
For if we "sin wilfully" after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth NO MORE sacrifice for sins,

[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

[31] It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

have you read d entire book of hebrews?

if u deny eternal salvation, u deny Christ.

quote author=ublight post=94912556]

have you read d entire book of hebrews?

A very good question. The op fails to realize that taking a text out of context, and giving it a meaning that was never intended, is even more dangerous.

ublight:
if u deny eternal salvation, u deny Christ.

What is eternal salvation? Salvation from what? Does this eternal salvation that you speak of guarantee one a place in Heaven?

Romans 6 vs 15-23 (ERV)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
15. So what should we do? Should we sin because we are under grace and not under law? Certainly not!
16. Surely you know that you become the slaves of whatever you give yourselves to. Anything or anyone you follow will be your master. You can follow sin, or you can obey God. Following sin brings spiritual death, but obeying God makes you right with him.
17. In the past you were slaves to sin—sin controlled you. But thank God, you fully obeyed what you were taught.
18. You were made free from sin, and now you are slaves to what is right.
19. I use this example from everyday life because you need help in understanding spiritual truths. In the past you offered the parts of your body to be slaves to your immoral and sinful thoughts. The result was that you lived only for sin. In the same way, you must now offer yourselves to be slaves to what is right. Then you will live only for God.
20. In the past you were slaves to sin, and you did not even think about doing right.
21. You did evil things, and now you are ashamed of what you did. Did those things help you? No, they only brought death.
22. But now you are free from sin. You have become slaves of God, and the result is that you live only for God. This will bring you eternal life.
23. When people sin, they earn what sin pays—death. But God gives his people a free gift—eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In the passage above, there is mention of salvation from sin and death, and the gift of eternal life. But what is missing? There is no mention of Heaven as being part of that gift that God has given man.

ublight:


have you read d entire book of hebrews?

Heb 6:4-4:
For as regards those who were once enlightened and who have tasted the heavenly free gift and who have become partakers of holy spirit5and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things,6 but have fallen away, it is impossible to revive them again to repentance because they nail the Son of God to the stake again for themselves and expose him to public shame.


This is another part of Hebrew scripture?
it shows someone anointed with holy Spirit can lose hope of salvation
you were saying??

ublight:
if u deny eternal salvation, u deny Christ.

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Eternal Salvation is for people that Obey or Disobey Christ?

ublight:
if u deny eternal salvation, u deny Christ.

Friend, eternal life is to know God; to know God is to obey his Words or abide in him to the END. Otherwise, we are not saved. You and some others might like to consider some more verses below, if you wish to:


John 15:6 KJV
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Luke 9:62 KJV
And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Matthew 13:21 KJV
Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Matthew 24:13 KJV
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

There are many more; remember Judas was once saved right?

Anyway, you don't need to agree with me in any case.

Peace.

davidinchrist:
Hebrews 10:26-27,31 KJV
For if we "sin wilfully" after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth NO MORE sacrifice for sins,

[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

[31] It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hello.

I believe you're right that the OSAS doctrine is false and very dangerously so. It's a terrible doctrine.

12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
2 Timothy 2:12 (NIV)

The concern I have about the passage that you shared above is that it is often taken to mean that sin costs us our Salvation, but that too is false. Sinning does not take away our Salvation. Giving up our faith in Jesus is what does. And this latter is what Hebrews 10:26-27 is speaking of. The sin of unbelief is unforgivable (Matthew 12:31; John 3:18). Only by believing can we be saved (John 1:12; 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9). If we stop believing, then we are no longer saved (John 3:18; 2 Timothy 2:12).

When we sin, we break fellowship with God and with fellow believers (1 John 1:6-7), but we do not lose our Salvation. If we confess our sin, we will be forgiven and restored to fellowship with God and with one another (1 John 1:7,9).

Also, when we sin, the Lord disciplines us for our sin, but He only does so because He considers us His children (Hebrews 12:5-11). Otherwise, He would not bother to discipline us (e.g. Psalm 73).

10 They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
Hebrews 12:10-11 (NIV)

19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”
2 Timothy 2:19 (NIV)

So, the Bible teaches both that Salvation can be lost and it is lost when we stop believing in Jesus Christ and that sin does not cost us our Salvation.

Finally, I'll add that it is, of course, important to not underestimate the effect of sin on faith. If we throw ourselves into a habit of sinning recklessly, we can eventually give up our faith in Jesus Christ as a result, because when we are disciplined by the Lord and harden our hearts against the discipline, we can certainly grow more and more rebellious against Him until we choose to stop believing so that we can sin as much as we want without having to deal with the pangs of conscience and other discipline that the Lord lays upon us.

13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Hebrews 3:13 (NKJV)

ublight:
have you read d entire book of hebrews?

madegreatbygrace:
A very good question. The op fails to realize that taking a text out of context, and giving it a meaning that was never intended, is even more dangerous.

I have! The letter Paul wrote to the Hebrews is only 8 chapters long and even at that, it is much shorter than, say, his letter to the Romans or the Corinthians.
Back to the topic, Paul does not, even in this letter, suggest that the gift of Eternal life guarantees one a place in heaven. Of course the gift of eternal life is irrevocable as it is a gift available to all those who believe in Jesus Christ, but we ought not to confuse eternal life with a guarantee of a place in the Kingdom of God itself. Eternal life is a gift we get through Jesus Christ (He is the LIFE).

haddeylium:


Heb 6:4-4:
For as regards those who were once enlightened and who have tasted the heavenly free gift and who have become partakers of holy spirit5and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things,6 but have fallen away, it is impossible to revive them again to repentance because they nail the Son of God to the stake again for themselves and expose him to public shame.


This is another part of Hebrew scripture?
it shows someone anointed with holy Spirit can lose hope of salvation
you were saying??

Thanks for this. May we all get grace to be real doers of the Word: even unto the END.

davidinchrist:
Hebrews 10:26-27,31 KJV
For if we "sin wilfully" after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth NO MORE sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
[31] It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Once saved from the condemnation of sin that is death, through the gift of eternal life, a person remains saved.

Salvation is from the condemnation of sin that is death. Every sinner(of which we all were to begin with) who makes the choice to believe in Jesus Christ, no longer needs to be afraid of the condemnation of sin that is death; they are no longer to die(perish/return back to the ground from which he was created/cease to exist or become nothing after death) because by simply believing in the person of Jesus Christ, such a sinner receives the free gift of eternal life. That gift is available to all who believe in Him.

However, the gift does not come with a guarantee of entry into the Kingdom of God. Entry into the Kingdom of God only belongs to those who not only receive the free gift of eternal life but also make the choice to serve God by obeying the commandments that are the New Covenant that is is Jesus Christ.

Those who receive the gift of eternal life but refuse to obey the commandments that is Jesus Christ are those who God has prepared a place for in the fires of Hell, where they will spend their eternal life instead.

quote author=davidinchrist post=94913688]

Friend, eternal life is to know God; to know God is to obey his Words or abide in him to the END. Otherwise, we are not saved. You and some others might like to consider some more verses below, if you wish to:


John 15:6 KJV
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Luke 9:62 KJV
And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Matthew 13:21 KJV
Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Matthew 24:13 KJV
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

There are many more; remember Judas was once saved right?

Anyway, you don't need to agree with me in any case.

Peace.

And who told you Judas was ever saved?

Ihedinobi3:


Hello.

I believe you're right that the OSAS doctrine is false and very dangerously so. It's a terrible doctrine.

12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
2 Timothy 2:12 (NIV)

The concern I have about the passage that you shared above is that it is often taken to mean that sin costs us our Salvation, but that too is false. Sinning does not take away our Salvation. Giving up our faith in Jesus is what does. And this latter is what Hebrews 10:26-27 is speaking of. The sin of unbelief is unforgivable (Matthew 12:31; John 3:18). Only by believing can we be saved (John 1:12; 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9). If we stop believing, then we are no longer saved (John 3:18; 2 Timothy 2:12).

When we sin, we break fellowship with God and with fellow believers (1 John 1:6-7), but we do not lose our Salvation. If we confess our sin, we will be forgiven and restored to fellowship with God and with one another (1 John 1:7,9).

Also, when we sin, the Lord disciplines us for our sin, but He only does so because He considers us His children (Hebrews 12:5-11). Otherwise, He would not bother to discipline us (e.g. Psalm 73).

10 They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
Hebrews 12:10-11 (NIV)

19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”
2 Timothy 2:19 (NIV)

So, the Bible teaches both that Salvation can be lost and it is lost when we stop believing in Jesus Christ and that sin does not cost us our Salvation.

Finally, I'll add that it is, of course, important to not underestimate the effect of sin on faith. If we throw ourselves into a habit of sinning recklessly, we can eventually give up our faith in Jesus Christ as a result, because when we are disciplined by the Lord and harden our hearts against the discipline, we can certainly grow more and more rebellious against Him until we choose to stop believing so that we can sin as much as we want without having to deal with the pangs of conscience and other discipline that the Lord lays upon us.

13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Hebrews 3:13 (NKJV)

Friend, being genuinely repentant after falling into sin is different from sinning willfully or continuing in sin.

But God sees the heart.

Revelation 3:5 KJV
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I WILL NOT blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

God bless.

that the eyes of your understanding be enlightened. Go to living word media dot org and type salvation. Clear your doubt.

davidinchrist:


Friend, being genuinely repentant after falling into sin is different from sinning willfully or continuing in sin.

But God sees the heart.

Revelation 3:5 KJV
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I WILL NOT blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

God bless.

I would certainly hope that it is. One ought to be genuinely repentant after one has sinned. That is my teaching too.

Sinning wilfully per Hebrews 10:26-27, however, is actually rejecting the Cross in favor of Moses in that context, because that is what Paul was warning his fellow Jews about in that letter. In other words, it is the sin of unbelief that he meant, not just any wilful sinning.

If he meant that whenever we sin wilfully or continue to sin without repenting, for example, lying knowing that we are lying or indulging in porneia arrogantly, then we are no longer saved, then there is a question what all the teaching in the Bible about divine discipline and confession and forgiveness is all about.

I'm in agreement with you, I hope you understand. I was only looking to expand what you said in accordance with what I see in the Bible.

The Lord be with you.

Ihedinobi3:


I would certainly hope that it is. One ought to be genuinely repentant after one has sinned. That is my teaching too.

Sinning wilfully per Hebrews 10:26-27, however, is actually rejecting the Cross in favor of Moses in that context, because that is what Paul was warning his fellow Jews about in that letter. In other words, it is the sin of unbelief that he meant, not just any wilful sinning.

If he meant that whenever we sin wilfully or continue to sin without repenting, for example, lying knowing that we are lying or indulging in porneia arrogantly, then we are no longer saved, then there is a question what all the teaching in the Bible about divine discipline and confession and forgiveness is all about.

I'm in agreement with you, I hope you understand. I was only looking to expand what you said in accordance with what I see in the Bible.

The Lord be with you.

Yeah, even after willfully sinning (which is terrible), the main thing is still "genuine repentance", which means "I don't want to sin anymore". And if we are serious, humble and seeking for grace, he'll give us victory in all things. As it says:

Romans 6:14-15 KJV
For sin shall NOT have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under Grace (He gives grace to the humble).

[15] What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God FORBID.

God bless.

Ihedinobi3:


I would certainly hope that it is. One ought to be genuinely repentant after one has sinned. That is my teaching too.

Sinning wilfully per Hebrews 10:26-27, however, is actually rejecting the Cross in favor of Moses in that context, because that is what Paul was warning his fellow Jews about in that letter. In other words, it is the sin of unbelief that he meant, not just any wilful sinning.

If he meant that whenever we sin wilfully or continue to sin without repenting, for example, lying knowing that we are lying or indulging in porneia arrogantly, then we are no longer saved, then there is a question what all the teaching in the Bible about divine discipline and confession and forgiveness is all about.

I'm in agreement with you, I hope you understand. I was only looking to expand what you said in accordance with what I see in the Bible.

The Lord be with you.

Yeah, even after willfully sinning (which is terrible), the main thing is still "genuine repentance", which means "I don't want to sin anymore". And if we are serious, humble and seeking grace, he'll give us victory in all things. As it says:

Romans 6:14-15 KJV
For sin shall NOT have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under Grace (He gives grace to the humble).

[15] What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God FORBID.

God bless.

quote author=Ihedinobi3 post=94914877]

I would certainly hope that it is. One ought to be genuinely repentant after one has sinned. That is my teaching too.

Sinning wilfully per Hebrews 10:26-27, however, is actually rejecting the Cross in favor of Moses in that context, because that is what Paul was warning his fellow Jews about in that letter. In other words, it is the sin of unbelief that he meant, not just any wilful sinning.

If he meant that whenever we sin wilfully or continue to sin without repenting, for example, lying knowing that we are lying or indulging in porneia arrogantly, then we are no longer saved, then there is a question what all the teaching in the Bible about divine discipline and confession and forgiveness is all about.

I'm in agreement with you, I hope you understand. I was only looking to expand what you said in accordance with what I see in the Bible.

The Lord be with you.

My point is, the op definition of ”sinning wilfully” is totally different from the Bible meaning. The writer of Hebrews gave the meaning at the beginning of that chapter. For the life of me, I honestly don't understand why Christians should give their own meanings and interpretations to Bible passages. This is deceitful to say the least.

quote author=haddeylium post=94913520]


Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Eternal Salvation is for people that Obey or Disobey Christ?

What does it mean to obey Christ in the context of this verse?

b4 2016. I was preaching all around futo with enuf energy that salvation can be lost. Op na learner sha.

Bt all that changed when i read the Bible contextually. Tnx to livingwordmedia.

Please nobody shud quote me again. I am not a keypad preacher.

davidinchrist:


Yeah, even after willfully sinning (which is terrible), the main thing is still "genuine repentance", which means "I don't want to sin anymore". And if we are serious, humble and seeking for grace, he'll give us victory in all things. As it says:

Romans 6:14-15 KJV
For sin shall NOT have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under Grace (He gives grace to the humble).

[15] What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God FORBID.

God bless.

I quite agree.

7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
Galatians 6:7 (NIV)

​1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,
Hebrews 12:1 (NIV)

But I know that if we confess our sin, the Lord will forgive us even if we stumble into it again and again. We ought not to underestimate spiritual immaturity and the weakness of this flesh. Some of us take a long time to learn to stay away from "the sin that so easily entangles," so we are often stuck in a cycle of confess-stumble-confess-stumble.

13 As a father has compassion on his children, so the LORD has compassion on those who fear him; 14 for he knows how we are formed, he remembers that we are dust.
Psalms 103:13-14 (NIV)

This does not mean that the Lord approves of such weakness. We ought to pursue spiritual growth specifically in order to become better at pleasing the Lord (Romans 12:1-2), so it is folly to imagine that because we are mortal flesh, it is somehow okay if we continue to sin recklessly, even if we always confess our sins to the Lord.

madegreatbygrace:


My point is, the op definition of ”sinning wilfully” is totally different from the Bible meaning. The writer of Hebrews gave the meaning at the beginning of that chapter. For the life of me, I honestly don't understand why Christians should give their own meanings and interpretations to Bible passages. This is deceitful to say the least.

I'm afraid I didn't see him give any meaning or definition at all. I answered the thread in order to address a common misconception of the passage he posted. In general, I agree with him, just as I said. My effort was to develop further what his thread is about.

As for giving meanings and interpretations to the Bible, as long as we are in this mortal flesh, neither we nor our teachings will be 100% perfect, so while we should definitely be demanding 100% fidelity to the Bible from those who teach the Bible, we ought to accommodate the weakness of the flesh and allow for some degree of error even in the case of the best teachers. What we cannot tolerate is teaching that attacks the safety of believers in the Truth, like any teachings that corrupt the major doctrines of the Bible, for example, Salvation, Who Jesus Christ is, and the sanctity of the Bible.

Cheers.

davidinchrist:
Hebrews 10:26-27,31 KJV
For if we "sin wilfully" after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth NO MORE sacrifice for sins,

[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

[31] It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Only dangerous for the untransformed soul. If one is INDEED a new creature, such will not have the nature of sin. If anyone still has the nature of sin after assuming that he is saved, such is on his own.

A fig tree will never bring forth thorns. If a tree brings forth thorns, it cannot be a fig tree.

Any "Christian" who justifies SIN has never known Christ and is not born again. We are not saved by praying the sinners prayer:are we? The fact that a person recited the sinners prayer is no indication that he is saved.

Ihedinobi3:


I quite agree.

7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
Galatians 6:7 (NIV)

​1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,
Hebrews 12:1 (NIV)

But I know that if we confess our sin, the Lord will forgive us even if we stumble into it again and again. We ought not to underestimate spiritual immaturity and the weakness of this flesh. Some of us take a long time to learn to stay away from "the sin that so easily entangles," so we are often stuck in a cycle of confess-stumble-confess-stumble.

13 As a father has compassion on his children, so the LORD has compassion on those who fear him; 14 for he knows how we are formed, he remembers that we are dust.
Psalms 103:13-14 (NIV)

This does not mean that the Lord approves of such weakness. We ought to pursue spiritual growth specifically in order to become better at pleasing the Lord (Romans 12:1-2), so it is folly to imagine that because we are mortal flesh, it is somehow okay if we continue to sin recklessly, even if we always confess our sins to the Lord.

Okay friend. Well, additionally; what I've found is if one (I am) NOT serious about seeking grace from God for victory, one (I) will NEVER get it, but just be forever stuck in this circle of sinning-repenting for life. And this circle is an enemy of growth. I don't mean growth in knowledge or church activities, but FIRST in the fruits of the Spirit: becoming more and more like Christ's nature.

Take some deep and closest sins like love of money, lusting with the eyes, selfishness and pride for instance; if we are not constantly judging ourselves deeply in areas like these, we shall never make any progress or just superficially.

The point is seriousness; Jesus called it Violence, Zeal/Diligence, Striving hard:

Matthew 11:12 KJV
... suffereth violence, and the VIOLENT take it by FORCE.

Luke 13:23-24 KJV
Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be SAVED? And he said unto them, [24] STRIVE TO ENTER in at the strait gate: for MANY, I say unto you, WILL SEEK to enter in, and SHALL NOT BE ABLE. (These words are really searching and strong)

Hence, that circle is not God's will; nor sinless perfection either, but GROWING in obedience by the power of the Holy spirit: pressing onto perfection (Heb. 6:1).

Lastly:

Philippians 2:12 KJV
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always OBEYED, not as in my presence only, but now MUCH MORE in my absence, work out YOUR OWN salvation with FEAR AND TREMBLING.

1 John 3:3 KJV
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

1 John 2:6 KJV
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Hebrews 10:38 KJV
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

1 Peter 4:18 KJV
And if the righteous SCARCELY be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Luke 14:33 KJV
So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not ALL that he hath, he CANNOT be my disciple.

May Jesus give us all Grace to be real doers and followers of his words, not just good or correct talkers or preachers... Amen.

quote author=Ihedinobi3 post=94914877]



Sinning wilfully per Hebrews 10:26-27, however, is actually rejecting the Cross in favor of Moses in that context, because that is what Paul was warning his fellow Jews about in that letter. In other words, it is the sin of unbelief that he meant, not just any wilful sinning.

Exactly my point !

shadeyinka:

Only dangerous for the untransformed soul. If one is INDEED a new creature, such will not have the nature of sin. If anyone still has the nature of sin after assuming that he is saved, such is on his own.

A fig tree will never bring forth thorns. If a tree brings forth thorns, it cannot be a fig tree.

Any "Christian" who justifies SIN has never known Christ and is not born again. We are not saved by praying the sinners prayer:are we? The fact that a person recited the sinners prayer is no indication that he is saved.

I'm pretty sure that the Bible disagrees with you.

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:8 (NIV)

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
Romans 7:18 (NKJV)

I can't imagine many things worse than suggesting that Christians don't have to deal with sin in the flesh after they have believed. This is precisely what leads to at best constant guilt and doubt about Salvation causing the believer to be stunted in spiritual growth and at worst legalism, self-righteousness, and eventual apostasy.

davidinchrist:



Okay friend. Well, additionally; what I've found is if one (I am) NOT serious about seeking grace from God for victory, one (I) will NEVER get it, but just be forever stuck in this circle of sinning-repenting for life. And this circle is an enemy of growth. I don't mean growth in knowledge or church activities, but FIRST in the fruits of the Spirit: becoming more and more like Christ's nature.

Take some deep and closest sins like love of money, lusting with the eyes, selfishness and pride for instance; if we are not constantly judging ourselves deeply in areas like these, we shall never make any progress or just superficially.

The point is seriousness; Jesus called it Violence, Zeal/Diligence, Striving hard:

Matthew 11:12 KJV
... suffereth violence, and the VIOLENT take it by FORCE.

Luke 13:23-24 KJV
Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be SAVED? And he said unto them, [24] STRIVE TO ENTER in at the strait gate: for MANY, I say unto you, WILL SEEK to enter in, and SHALL NOT BE ABLE. (These words are really searching and strong)

Hence, that circle is not God's will; nor sinless perfection either, but GROWING in obedience by the power of the Holy spirit: pressing onto perfection (Heb. 6:1).

Lastly:

Philippians 2:12 KJV
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always OBEYED, not as in my presence only, but now MUCH MORE in my absence, work out YOUR OWN salvation with FEAR AND TREMBLING.

1 John 3:3 KJV
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

1 John 2:6 KJV
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Hebrews 10:38 KJV
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

1 Peter 4:18 KJV
And if the righteous SCARCELY be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Luke 14:33 KJV
So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not ALL that he hath, he CANNOT be my disciple.

May Jesus give us all Grace to be real doers and followers of his words, not just good or correct talkers or preachers... Amen.

Amen indeed, friend.

As I said,

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:1-2 (NKJV)

the passage above tells me that being transformed in our minds (spiritual growth, which is growth in knowledge about the Lord Jesus that we actually believe and obey or apply to our lives) is the key to becoming more and more like Christ. So I completely agree with you.

My concern is that many people are stuck trying to live life right, trying to obey God and stay away from sin, but they do it without spiritual growth, so they fail spectacularly and grow more and more despondent about their Christian life. Such people are often wrestling with guilt and are afraid to be effective for the Lord because they know how weak they are. And they are in a better position than those who just turn into legalists basically dictating to God what is right and what is wrong for them to do. The latter are apt to eventually fall away from the faith while still fancying themselves righteous people, just like the Pharisees of our Lord's day.

So, what I counsel, just as Romans 12 above teaches is that the believer focus on spiritual growth, that is, submitting themselves to a qualified pastor-teacher to learn everything that the Bible teaches and walk steadily in it. In doing so, they become stronger and stronger spiritually and more and more able to resist sin and actually do the good works (that is, our works of ministry) that they were created in Christ Jesus for.

11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. 14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.
Ephesians 4:11-16 (NIV)

madegreatbygrace:



Exactly my point !

I see. Well, that clarification was made, and I think that it was accepted. But we are all fellow believers and there is no need for a quarrel in this particular matter.

Ihedinobi3:


I'm pretty sure that the Bible disagrees with you.

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:8 (NIV)

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
Romans 7:18 (NKJV)

I can't imagine many things worse than suggesting that Christians don't have to deal with sin in the flesh after they have believed. This is precisely what leads to at best constant guilt and doubt about Salvation causing the believer to be stunted in spiritual growth and at worst legalism, self-righteousness, and eventual apostasy.

I have not insinuated that Christians cannot commit sin. I spoke about SIN NATURE! Anyone who finds justification for sin is NOT of Christ.

Let me illustrate it for you with this analogy:
A PIG has the nature of FlLTH
A CAT has the nature of NEATNESS

It is possible to see a clean pig BUT the clean pig will justify rolling in the mud because there is heat.

It is possible to see a dirty cat. But such a cat will not be at ease with itself. It will feel miserable and uncomfortable to remain in filth.

Hear what the master says about this issue

Mat 7:17-20:
"Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit , neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that brings not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Why by their fruits you shall know them."


On this statement of Christ, I add nothing else

shadeyinka:

I have not insinuated that Christians cannot commit sin. I spoke about SIN NATURE! Anyone who finds justification for sin is NOT of Christ.

Let me illustrate it for you with this analogy:
A PIG has the nature of FlLTH
A CAT has the nature of NEATNESS

It is possible to see a clean pig BUT the clean pig will justify rolling in the mud because there is heat.

It is possible to see a dirty cat. But such a cat will not be at ease with itself. It will feel miserable and uncomfortable to remain in filth.

Hear what the master says about this issue

Mat 7:17-20:
"Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit. A[b] good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit[/b] , neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that brings not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Why by their fruits you shall know them."


On this statement of Christ, I add nothing else

Perhaps I am only misunderstanding you, but how does one commit sin when one does not have a sin nature? Is it your position that after we believe, our flesh is made like Adam and Eve's before they sinned against the Lord and acquired sin natures that they passed on to their children through the flesh? I confess I don't understand this at all.

As for justifying sin, I honestly don't see the place that that has in this discussion. Sinning willfully in the context of Hebrews 10 is about apostatizing from the faith in favor of a return to the Mosaic Law, so I don't understand why justifying sin has any place in the conversation.

The Master was speaking about false prophets in that passage. The quote is sometimes called "the fruit test." It is how a believer can tell whether some prophet or teacher is safe to listen to or not (compare Matthew 12:32-35). I have never seen anything in the Bible that suggests that sinning proves that someone is not a believer, since even believers are killed by the Lord because of unrepentant sinning in order to save them from apostasy (1 Corinthians 5:5, for example).