Why do people ask stupid question? God remain God it depends on which tribe you belong .

Ogundabede:

Eke re'bi ogun odun ko de
Eke re ajo osu mefa ko bo
Otito inu ni ajeku ju iro lo

Dishonesty travelled for 20 years and still hasn't returned
Dishonesty travelling for 6 months and still hasn't come
Even the remnants of Inner truth is greater than a lie

A difa fun Baba Imale ab'ewu-gereje
A ni: biwon d'aye tan iro ni won mi a maa pa
A niki won rubo, won ko won ko rubo

This was divined for Baba Imale (the muslim) with his flowing robes
They said when he reached the world he would just be lying anyhow
They were advised to make sacrifice, they refused and wouldn't sacrifice.


Iro naa ni awon Imale npa titi di oni-oloni.
Won a ma wipe awon ngbaawe Olorun ni odoodun
Esu wa to won lo nijokan.

That mendacity is what Imale has been doing since up until today.
They will be claiming that they are fasting on behalf of Olorun every year.
So Esu got on their case one day.


O bere lowo won pe: Kini idi re ti won maa nwipe awon ngbaawe Olorun ni odoodun
E nso nipa eyi pe: Olorun ku ni?
Tabi o ni ibanuje?
Olorun ko ha je Otito-inu bi?

He asked them: what is the basis of this claim that you are fasting for Olorun on an annually?
Are you saying by this that Olorun is dying
Or that he feels inner displeasure (ibanuje - sadness? spoiled inside?)
Don't you realise that Olorun is innate truth itself?

O ni: Hen! ngbaawe Olorun, Olorun Kiiku
Edumare Kiis' okunrun.
Oran ibanuje kiiba Olodumare.

He said: Hen! So you fast for Olorun, yet Olorun doesn't die.
Edumare is never sick
The problems of displeasure never affect Olodumare

Lile ni Esu le agbajo won.
Nitorinaa, gbogbo won si tuka lo.
Orin ti Esu ko ni ojo naa ni: A maigboku Olodumare o, A f'eke o a f'era . . .

Esu drove them away
Subsequently, all of them scattered
This is the song that Esu sang on that day: We never heard of the death fo Olodumare o! Only the death of the Liars and the dishonest.

Osa-Otura:

OsaOtura I kinni Otito?
Emi I kinni Otito?
Orunmiula I Otito ni oluwa orun ti nto aye.

OsaOtura asks: What is Truth?
I ask: What is Truth?
Orunmila answered: Truth is the Lord of Heaven that puts the world in Order.

OsaOtura I kinni Otito?
Emi I kinni Otito?
Orunmila I otito ni Eni-airi ti nto aye. Ogbon ti Olodumare nlo. Ogbon-nla. Opolopo Ogbon,

OsaOtura asks: What is truth?
I ask: What is Truth?
Orunmila answered: Truth is the Unseen person that orders the world. The wisdom that Olodumare is using, a a great wisdom, plenty plenty wisdom.

OsaOtura I kinni Otito?
Emi I kinni Otito?
Orunmila I Otito ni iwa Olodumare, Otito ni Oro ti ko le subu.
Ifa li Otito, Otito ni Oro ti ko le baje.
Agbara nla, Ajulo, Ire-ailopin

OsaOtura asks: What is Truth?
I ask: What is truth?
Orunmila answered:Truth is the being(character) of Olodumare, Truth is the word that cannot fall
Ifa says the Truth, Truth is the word that cannot spoil
A great power, surpassing everything, an unending good fortune.

@thehomer; what Name in yoruba language will 2 muslims talking to each other, in Iseyin for example, without saying Allah will they refer to God Almighty The Creator, Singularly Unique in all of His Nature?

Could they say Olodumare and be correct, each knowing that this meant Allah Who they Worship? Or in your view they will be wrong, even though generations of muslims in yoruba language have called Allah Olodumare, or Olorun, Eleda, Oluwa, etc, without any fear that they may be wrong, until you now that they are wrong?

You suggestion here is similar to a jew saying Yahweh is One, while christian says 3 persons. Who is correct, the jew or the christian. I say my Ilah, Allah the Almighty is Olodumare in the language that I often dream in. You are neither in my body nor are you a muslim. How do you know that a muslim yoruba who says Olodumare does not mean Allah in Arabic?

Is a Christian Oluwasegun, and a Muslim Oluwasegun named in the Honor of the same Deity?

Since I've come to this country I've answered all kinds of names, not because they are my name, they are not, but because I know the person calling the name is referring to me and I can't be bothered to correct him. Since I understand what he is trying to say/do, which is to call my attention I ignore the fact that he is not actually calling my name.

if 2 muslims have a protocol (decided upon arbitrarily by themselves) that involves calling some patron diety of Arab people olodumare, well if it works for them then good for them. However when you start trying to conflate the two when it is obvious even from the descriptions of the 2 that they are extremely different then you will be called up on that.

By all accounts of Allah, if you want to fit him into Yoruba cosmology then Allah is nothing more than an Orisha, possibly even an Iwin.

ps. The fact that an error has been going on for a long time does not make it stop being an error.

Hi Pastor. I am not versed in Yoruba spiritual tradition but could you just clear up something for me. Is it your suggestion that the semitic peoples had no conception of the ultimate divine cause in the sense that it is suggested that the Yoruba conceive of Olodumare. Thank you.

Sweetnecta:

@thehomer; what Name in yoruba language will 2 muslims talking to each other, in Iseyin for example, without saying Allah will they refer to God Almighty The Creator, Singularly Unique in all of His Nature?

Could they say Olodumare and be correct, each knowing that this meant Allah Who they Worship? Or in your view they will be wrong, even though generations of muslims in yoruba language have called Allah Olodumare, or Olorun, Eleda, Oluwa, etc, without any fear that they may be wrong, until you now that they are wrong?

You suggestion here is similar to a jew saying Yahweh is One, while christian says 3 persons. Who is correct, the jew or the christian. I say my Ilah, Allah the Almighty is Olodumare in the language that I often dream in. You are neither in my body nor are you a muslim. How do you know that a muslim yoruba who says Olodumare does not mean Allah in Arabic?

Is a Christian Oluwasegun, and a Muslim Oluwasegun named in the Honor of the same Deity?

Pastor AIO has pretty much answered your question. And judging from the demonstration of his knowledge here and elsewhere, he is more qualified than I am in outlining the various Yoruba deities those mentioned above included.
I'll end by advising you to look up syncretism. It is a popular way for religions to gain adherents in widely disparate cultures.

I do not judge my yorubaness by PastorAIO's knowledge of Yoruba life.

For all I know, I may have spent many years than him as a yoruba man.

There are some things that we will see differently from our own lenses.

I see Olodumare {Eldedumare} as Yoruba word for Allah of Islam.

You see all kind of gods under your Olodumare. I am not using your yardstick for my Olodumare. I'm Muslim. You are not. My Lord is known. You deny that there is none.

thehomer:

That was why I pointed out to you that your syncretism was not complete. Their belief was to approach Olodumare via the lesser Gods. i.e This Olodumare had lesser Gods while your Allah doesn't. So, why would you claim that Olodumare and Allah are the same entity when one has lesser Gods while the other doesn't?

Truly one must admire sweetnecta patience in dealing with this kind of Murky thinking.

thehommer, I wonder what stop you from developing a 'thinking process' in trying to answer the question at hand, first and most importantly we have to ask was Olodumare always approached via lesser gods? bring syncopation into the discourse won't get you anywhere. If the answer is obviously unanswerable, we can simply postulate on whether or not it has been paganism right from time, we know the following that Oldumare refers or translates to mean the supreme being, now know that the Yoruba mythology came via oral tradition, and this tradition might have spanned millenia,in the process certain things could have gone out of place certain oral tradition could have ended up being misinterpreted, the following possibilities arise,for example sango could have been a person who was outstanding during his life time and later on after his death, people spoke of him and before you know it great tales started to circle around him, another possibility is that the the awesome powers of thunder led PEOPLE to mistake it from some sort of divinity etc but in essence we can still say that this lesser gods came later along the years.


editing

Hi Pastor, please can i have your take on this  -

Deep Sight:

Hi Pastor. I am not versed in Yoruba spiritual tradition but could you just clear up something for me. Is it your suggestion that the semitic peoples had no conception of the ultimate divine cause in the sense that it is suggested that the Yoruba conceive of Olodumare. Thank you.

In this regard perharps you may want to also consider the refrain within the OT - "I AM that I AM" - which to my mind implies nothing else if not the quality of self-existence - a principal atrribute of the ultimate cause.

I do obviously believe that the semitic gods are largely tribal constructs, but do you not accept that here and there the thought development of the peoples has transcended those constructs into ideas that clearly conceive of the ultimate cause itself: regardless that they still referred to such with the ancient names of their tribal deities.

It would be heart-warming to hear your take on this one, [size=2pt]although I am schooled enough in your disdain for me such that i will not be waiting up for it. [/size]

Sweetnecta:

I do not judge my yorubaness by PastorAIO's knowledge of Yoruba life.

No one is asking you to.

Sweetnecta:

For all I know, I may have spent many years than him as a yoruba man.

There are some things that we will see differently from our own lenses.

I see Olodumare {Eldedumare} as Yoruba word for Allah of Islam.

You see all kind of gods under your Olodumare. I am not using your yardstick for my Olodumare. I'm Muslim. You are not. My Lord is known. You deny that there is none.

I know you've chosen to see it that way. I'm simply pointing out that historically and among traditional african religious practitioners, they're not the same entity. Those Yorubas were worshipping something called Olodumare before the muslims arrived.

vedaxcool:

Truly one must admire sweetnecta patience in dealing with this kind of Murky thinking.

thehommer, I wonder what stop you from developing a 'thinking process' in trying to answer the question at hand, first and most importantly we have to ask was Olodumare always approached via lesser gods? bring syncopation into the discourse won't get you anywhere. If the answer is obviously unanswerable, we can simply postulate on whether or not it has been paganism right from time, we know the following that Oldumare refers or translates to mean the supreme being, now know that the Yoruba mythology came via oral tradition, and this tradition might have spanned millenia,in the process certain things could have gone out of place certain oral tradition could have ended up being misinterpreted, the following possibilities arise,for example sango could have been a person who was outstanding during his life time and later on after his death, people spoke of him and before you know it great tales started to circle around him, another possibility is that the the awesome powers of thunder led PEOPLE to mistake it from some sort of divinity etc but in essence we can still say that this lesser gods came later along the years.
editing

And has your thinking process developed? I ask because I can't find a sign of it in this post of yours. Olodumare was approached via lesser Gods until the arrival of Christianity and Islam.
What does syncopation have to do with this discussion?
It seems you're still missing the main point of what I'm saying. Olodumare is a supreme being approached via his lesser deities, Allah is a supreme being of Muslims approached directly, Jehovah is the supreme being of the Jews approached via his priests but now of Christians approached via Jesus. Do you now see the difference?
So according to you, Yorubas do not know their own oral history and mythology? Have you considered the fact of the difference in the creation myths of Allah and that of Olodumare?

Thehomer forgets tat the pagan arabs knew Allah, but had 360 idols that they approached Him through before Muhammad [as] revived the tradition of Ibrahim's [as] direct approach of Allah to the arabs.

before then, after the children of israel left egypt, the created a god [golden calf] which the were approaching Yahweh by,because Moses [as] stayed too long during the time he received the 10 commandments.

were the children of israel ignorant of the fact that Yahweh Who their fore bearers [Abraham [notice that i had called him Ibrahim [as] with Muhammad's [as] story of revival, above. same man, different names to different people. same God, different Names to different people [isaac, jacob, joseph [all prophets [as] according to muslims, definitely monotheists according to the children of israel, unless you can show us which lesser god each worshiped considering that Abraham destroyed idols of his people in Ur], is the Sole God without any lesser god?

this is the same with yoruba's Olodumare. in reality, the yoruba's knew Him as the Single Sole God before christianity and islam. but because they lost the purity of monotheistic worship, they erected lesser gods to lead them, just as the golen calf was erected. but lesser gods are useless to themselves and those who erect them.

this is the issue.

Sweetnecta:

Thehomer forgets tat the pagan arabs knew Allah, but had 360 idols that they approached Him through before Muhammad [as] revived the tradition of Ibrahim's [as] direct approach of Allah to the arabs.

before then, after the children of israel left egypt, the created a god [golden calf] which the were approaching Yahweh by,because Moses [as] stayed too long during the time he received the 10 commandments.

were the children of israel ignorant of the fact that Yahweh Who their fore bearers [Abraham [notice that i had called him Ibrahim [as] with Muhammad's [as] story of revival, above. same man, different names to different people. same God, different Names to different people [isaac, jacob, joseph [all prophets [as] according to muslims, definitely monotheists according to the children of israel, unless you can show us which lesser god each worshiped considering that Abraham destroyed idols of his people in your], is the Sole God without any lesser god?

this is the same with yoruba's Olodumare. in reality, the yoruba's knew Him as the Single Sole God before christianity and islam. but because they lost the purity of monotheistic worship, they erected lesser gods to lead them, just as the golen calf was erected. but lesser gods are useless to themselves and those who erect them.

this is the issue.

You should read your stuff out loud before posting. Your religion is weird enough, you shouldn't make it worse with your rhetoric. I bet you can give Ghaddafi a run for his money when it comes to craziness disguised as enlightened speech.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Thanks, Martians. {sknaht?}.

This is human race discussion board. Go find a martian group discussion board to argue on.

I do not speak, read or write "Martian". I dont know how I can explain to you in your martian language.

On earth, humans buttress their view points with related materials. Thats what i did. I know that is strange process to "Martian" specie and those among humans who think like martians.

Sweetnecta:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Thanks, Martians. {sknaht?}.

This is human race discussion board. Go find a martian group discussion board to argue on.

I do not speak, read or write "Martian". I dont know how I can explain to you in your martian language.

On earth, humans buttress their view points with related materials. Thats what i did. I know that is strange process to "Martian" specie and those among humans who think like martians.

Yea,  but you still remain the worst religion apologist I've come across because you'll ignore facts and distort known facts to prove your point. While most apologists try to be coherent, all you do is ramble.

Sweetnecta:

I do not judge my yorubaness by PastorAIO's knowledge of Yoruba life.

For all I know, I may have spent many years than him as a yoruba man.

There are some things that we will see differently from our own lenses.

I see Olodumare {Eldedumare} as Yoruba word for Allah of Islam.

You see all kind of gods under your Olodumare. I am not using your yardstick for my Olodumare. I'm Muslim. You are not. My Lord is known. You deny that there is none.

Why are you squirming and trying to wriggle out of it like a worm? What has age got to do with this. What has perspective got to do with this? See it through as many different lenses as you like it is very clear for all to see. Olodumare has nothing to do with your arab Jinn. It is not a matter of you and me having a different yardstick. Check any traditional yoruba religious literature and you will not find anywhere where olodumare is referred to in the same way you refer to Allah. You will not find where Olodumare asks anybody to fast for him, or to kill goat for him. You will not find where they tell people to face a certain direction in order to pray to olodumare. You can pray to olodumare from any position, sitting standing, kneeling, sleeping sef, so far as your heart is pure and you approach him with that pure heart. Eledumare will never say that you have to bow down to a rock in worshipping him. He will never say that you have to run around some rock over and over again like a slowpoke before he can answer you.
What is it exactly that you are facing when you face mecca when you pray? Is it that Allah is located there? Because Eledumare is not limited to any fixed location.

vedaxcool:

Truly one must admire sweetnecta patience in dealing with this kind of Murky thinking.

thehommer, I wonder what stop you from developing a 'thinking process' in trying to answer the question at hand, first and most importantly we have to ask was Olodumare always approached via lesser gods? bring syncopation into the discourse won't get you anywhere. If the answer is obviously unanswerable, we can simply postulate on whether or not it has been paganism right from time, we know the following that Oldumare refers or translates to mean the supreme being, now know that the Yoruba mythology came via oral tradition, and this tradition might have spanned millenia,in the process certain things could have gone out of place certain oral tradition could have ended up being misinterpreted, the following possibilities arise,for example sango could have been a person who was outstanding during his life time and later on after his death, people spoke of him and before you know it great tales started to circle around him, another possibility is that the the awesome powers of thunder led PEOPLE to mistake it from some sort of divinity etc but in essence we can still say that this lesser gods came later along the years.

editing

My own patience nko?

Was Olodumare always approached through lesser Gods? It is important that you understand Yoruba religions. One does not approach olodumare through anything. When you approach Sango you are approaching Sango. When you approach Goodluck Jonathan you are approaching Goodluck Jonathan. You are not saying to Goodluck, please help me to tell Eledumare to fix our country. I hope I'm clear.
The Orisha were delegated their positions by Eledumare. They were given their various Ase (authority) to do various tasks. Just like Goodluck Jonathan is where he is thanks to the grace of God, so Sango is where he is thanks to the grace of God. Yemonja is where she is thanks to the grace of God.

The Onisango that is dealing with Sango is dealing with Sango. If he/she wants to talk to Eledumare s/he can do so directly. When you talk to the minister of Finance you don't ask him to ask President Jonathan on your behalf whatever it is you request. You know that the minister of Finance has been conferred with a certain authority to do and undo in matters of finance. Jonathan doesn't even have to know anything about your conversation with him. I hope I have sorted out that misunderstanding.

Finally I want to point out to you the highly speculatory nature of the rest of your post. full of coulds, and mights and possibilities. We are having a factual discussion here and yes anything could happen in history, including the possibility that Allah is an ancient arab diety with 3 daughters that was re-worked by a camel herder called muhammad and made into a sole diety that created the world. Furthermore I could speculate as to why anybody might want to force this Allah notion unto the Yoruba Eledumare.

Sweetnecta:

Thehomer forgets tat[b] the pagan arabs knew Allah, but had 360 idols that they approached Him through before Muhammad [as] revived the tradition of Ibrahim's [as] direct approach of Allah to the arabs.[/b]

this is the same with yoruba's Olodumare. in reality, the yoruba's knew Him as the Single Sole God before christianity and islam. but because they lost the purity of monotheistic worship, they erected lesser gods to lead them, just as the golen calf was erected. but lesser gods are useless to themselves and those who erect them.

this is the issue.

The fact of the matter is that a thorough job was done of eradicating whatever traces of pre-islamic religion were left after Islam rose. Why was that the case? Was it paranoia? Was it because the history would betray the fact the Islam is but a derivation of previous Arabic religion? Would many of the verses in the Koran be found to have existed in the religious literature of the Arabs before Islam? This is my turn to speculate but it is my belief that the truth will soon out. There is nothing hidden that will not be exposed. One day one day.

But back to my point. There is no record that Allah was approached through 360 dieties. Are you sure he was not just one of the 360?

Sweetnecta:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Thanks, Martians. {sknaht?}.

This is human race discussion board. Go find a martian group discussion board to argue on.

I do not speak, read or write "Martian". I dont know how I can explain to you in your martian language.

On earth, humans buttress their view points with related materials. Thats what i did. I know that is strange process to "Martian" specie and those among humans who think like martians.

;Dlol ;Dl ;Dl ;Dlo ;Dlol ;Dol ;Do really you messed this guy up.

Deep Sight:

Hi Pastor. I am not versed in Yoruba spiritual tradition but could you just clear up something for me. Is it your suggestion that the semitic peoples had no conception of the ultimate divine cause in the sense that it is suggested that the Yoruba conceive of Olodumare. Thank you.

Deep Sight:

Hi Pastor, please can i have your take on this  -

In this regard perharps you may want to also consider the refrain within the OT - "I AM that I AM" - which to my mind implies nothing else if not the quality of self-existence - a principal atrribute of the ultimate cause.

I do obviously believe that the semitic gods are largely tribal constructs, but do you not accept that here and there the thought development of the peoples has transcended those constructs into ideas that clearly conceive of the ultimate cause itself: regardless that they still referred to such with the ancient names of their tribal deities.

It would be heart-warming to hear your take on this one, [size=2pt]although I am schooled enough in your disdain for me such that i will not be waiting up for it. [/size]

Why are you painting such an arrogant picture of me?  Where did I disdain you?  Okay, you might have given me a few headaches in the past.  Sometimes just reading some of your posts has me reaching for the panadol within 5 minutes.  However I am not disdainful of you.  Far from it.  
And also it is as painful for me not to get into personal touch with people from this forum as it seems to be for you.  I made up my mind and I'm not going to go back on it, even though there are so many people, yourself included, that I would love to meet for a drink, get drunk even (why not?), but I must insist that we must not have any theological discussions.

If you want to get into Hebrew notions of God's transcendence and ineffability then check out Ein Soph Aur.  That is Hebrew for the limitless light.  

EIN-SOF (Heb. אֵין סוֹף; "The Infinite," lit. that which is boundless), name given in Kabbalah to God transcendent, in His pure essence: God in Himself, apart from His relationship to the created world. Since every name which was given to God referred to one of the characteristics or attributes by which He revealed Himself to His creatures, or which they ascribed to Him, there is no name or epithet for God from the point of view of His own being. Consequently, when the kabbalists wanted to be precise in their language they abstained from using names like Elohim, the Tetragrammaton, "the Holy One, blessed be He," and others. These names are all found either in the Written or the Oral Law. The Torah, however, refers only to God's manifestations and not to God's own being which is above and beyond His relationship to the created world.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0006_0_05655.html

Traditionally, both Judaism and Christianity believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, for Jews the God of the Tanakh, for Christians the God of the Old Testament, the creator of the universe.  . . . . .

Both religions agree that God shares both transcendent and immanent qualities. How these religions resolve this issue is where the religions differ. . . .

Although Judaism provides Jews with a word to label God's transcendence (Ein Sof, without end) and immanence (Shekhinah, in-dwelling), these are merely human words to describe two ways of experiencing God; God is one and indivisible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_Judaism#Concepts_of_God

The Zohar explains the term "Ein Sof" as follows:
“ Before He gave any shape to the world, before He produced any form, He was alone, without form and without resemblance to anything else. Who then can comprehend how He was before the Creation? Hence it is forbidden to lend Him any form or similitude, or even to call Him by His sacred name, or to indicate Him by a single letter or a single point. . . . But after He created the form of the Heavenly Man, He used him as a chariot wherein to descend, and He wishes to be called after His form, which is the sacred name 'YHWH'.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ein_Sof

thehomer:

And has your thinking process developed? I ask because I can't find a sign of it in this post of yours. Olodumare was approached via lesser Gods until the arrival of Christianity and Islam.

I understand from your post that you are not seeing properly and hence you have to use proxies to read simple post.

thehomer:

What does syncopation have to do with this discussion?

Actually is syncretism I was trying to write though your arguments are more of syncopated rythms than reasonable points.

thehomer:

It seems you're still missing the main point of what I'm saying. Olodumare is a supreme being approached via his lesser deities, Allah is a supreme being of Muslims approached directly, Jehovah is the supreme being of the Jews approached via his priests but now of Christians approached via Jesus. Do you now see the difference?

It seems you hardly read what I wrote as my question is simple was Oludumare always worshipped via lesser gods? in essence sweetnecta was only restating Islamic Philosophy that is there can be only one supreme being that is ALLAH. You were the same person in the thread 'History of God' that the Jews coppied their God from pagan belief and then other Abrahmic faith folowed suit, this you surpotted based on their supposed similarities, now you are here using all your throat muscles to insist that Oludumare is not the same with ALLAH simply because Oludumare is worshipped via lesser gods, despite the similarities with one of the Attributes o ALLAH -the Supreme being- if you have ever been truthful it value would clearly be evident in your polemics yet you usually use the blind method. Now you are insisting on diffrences, what of their similarities? ALL the above are seen as supreme beings. Do you see the similarity?

thehomer:

So according to you, Yorubas do not know their own oral history and mythology?

No, according to you Yoruba don't know their oral History or mythology, as what I clearly wrote was that there is a possibility that the oral tradition could have been altered over a long period of time, as religions dependent solely on oral tradition will be very dynamic an ever changing. this i hope will b easy for you to understand.

thehomer:

Have you considered the fact of the difference in the creation myths of Allah and that of Olodumare?

Have considered that oral Tradition could have produced such myths of Oludumre? or is it only when you talk of Islam/Judaism/Christianity you begin to consider of alteration and looses?

On Syncretism, you really showed how an average athesit is rational, the best possible time syncretism would have work in getting adherents for Islam or Christianity is when these religions just entered Africa or nigeria to be precise, yet this two religion were clearly anti traditional religion in their practice and preaching, yet according to you sweetnecta is trying to use syncretism as a means of getting adherent in the digital age after tons of the adherents of ATR have vastly dwindled? no that is not rational thinking and nowhere did sweetnecta calmoured to make sango a prophet of ALLAH.

@PastorAIO: « #49 on: Yesterday at 09:22:42 PM »
[Quote]Quote from: Sweetnecta on Yesterday at 02:46:05 PM
Thehomer forgets tat the pagan arabs knew Allah, but had 360 idols that they approached Him through before Muhammad [as] revived the tradition of Ibrahim's [as] direct approach of Allah to the arabs.

this is the same with yoruba's Olodumare. in reality, the yoruba's knew Him as the Single Sole God before christianity and islam. but because they lost the purity of monotheistic worship, they erected lesser gods to lead them, just as the golen calf was erected. but lesser gods are useless to themselves and those who erect them.

this is the issue.

The fact of the matter is that a thorough job was done of eradicating whatever traces of pre-islamic religion were left after Islam rose. Why was that the case? Was it paranoia? Was it because the history would betray the fact the Islam is but a derivation of previous Arabic religion? Would many of the verses in the Koran be found to have existed in the religious literature of the Arabs before Islam? This is my turn to speculate but it is my belief that the truth will soon out. There is nothing hidden that will not be exposed. One day one day.[/Quote]It is a good thing that you are speculating [conjecture], similar to what the jews says about killing and crucifying Jesus {Allah records it as such in Surah Nisaa}. In some jewish literature [mishna], they said they stoned jesus. Which one is it; crucify on the tree or stone to dead?

Pastor, just like a yoruba muslim will say Olodumare oo, and he meant Allah. A christian will say Olodumare oo, he probably [not so sure because of 3 in 1 or 1 in 3 of trinity]. So does the odu ifa man [this fits you since you lean heavily towards ifa. thats by the way] will say Olodumare oo, and he meant what he meant. But for sure the ifa man does not mean Allah or one in the trinity concept, do we say that Olodumare of each is not in existence before the yoruba nation itself came to existence? If the yoruba Muslim says Olodumare is Allah, being the Creator, we know for sure that this Olodumare existed before he brought creation to being, which He has continued to manage and He will be the Judge of the day of judgment.

By the above, can we say that Yoruba Muslims stole Olodumare of the pagan yorubas, because the pagan also say Olodumare? This is what you are saying about Quran and pre Muhammad's Islam, while before paganism in Makka or the entire arabia, Adam built the Kaaba, and Ibrahim [as], helped by his son Ismail [as] rebuilt it after the flood of Prophet Nuh [as].

Monotheism was in Makka before polytheism came to it, unless you can proof that Adam was a polytheist or never came to Makka. Or after the flood Ibrahim and Ismail never came to Makka, while Zam Zam water will act as a proof against you. I leave Kaaba out of it, which is additional witness against your thoughts above; I know you are only making propositions. Please show me Surah Fatiha, or Baqarah or any Surah of the Quran in any pre Islam of Muhammad among what the arabs had, except eloquence of oral tradition, which what is in Quran supersedes.



[Quote]But back to my point. There is no record that Allah was approached through 360 dieties. Are you sure he was not just one of the 360?[/Quote]Read Surah Najm [star] with the pagans use of uzza, etc as medium to reach Allah the Invisible.

Pastor AIO:

Why are you painting such an arrogant picture of me? Where did I disdain you? Okay, you might have given me a few headaches in the past. Sometimes just reading some of your posts has me reaching for the panadol within 5 minutes. However I am not disdainful of you. Far from it.
And also it is as painful for me not to get into personal touch with people from this forum as it seems to be for you. I made up my mind and I'm not going to go back on it, even though there are so many people, yourself included, that I would love to meet for a drink, get drunk even (why not?), but I must insist that we must not have any theological discussions.

If you want to get into Hebrew notions of God's transcendence and ineffability then check out Ein Soph Aur. That is Hebrew for the limitless light.


http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0006_0_05655.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_Judaism#Concepts_of_God
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ein_Sof

Most grateful for this Pastor. And do pardon my whining. Inspite of all my bravado i tend to be quite a wimp.

Now to hone the question more precisely: and this is not to say that you did not answer it: you did: i merely wish to focus more succintly.

Does the perception of YHWH contained in scripture not also betray elements of the ultimate cause such as you describe the Yoruba conception of Olodumare to be?

To specify: You are well aware of my hideous perception of the tribal entity YHWH: however - a conception of the ultimate cause certainly crept in here and there in the Jewish thought development regarding YHWH: and you have yourself acceded that names may be meaningless when an idea is concerned.

Thus can we really say that Jewish ideas of Yahweh such as (I AM THAT I AM - self existence) do not rhyme with the ideas of Olodumare that you set out above.

Thanks, and genuinely seeking,

Pastor AIO:

My own patience nko?

Was Olodumare always approached through lesser Gods? It is important that you understand Yoruba religions. One does not approach olodumare through anything. When you approach Sango you are approaching Sango. When you approach Goodluck Jonathan you are approaching Goodluck Jonathan. You are not saying to Goodluck, please help me to tell Eledumare to fix our country. I hope I'm clear.
The Orisha were delegated their positions by Eledumare. They were given their various Ase (authority) to do various tasks. Just like Goodluck Jonathan is where he is thanks to the grace of God, so Sango is where he is thanks to the grace of God. Yemonja is where she is thanks to the grace of God.


The Onisango that is dealing with Sango is dealing with Sango. If he/she wants to talk to Eledumare s/he can do so directly. When you talk to the minister of Finance you don't ask him to ask President Jonathan on your behalf whatever it is you request. You know that the minister of Finance has been conferred with a certain authority to do and undo in matters of finance. Jonathan doesn't even have to know anything about your conversation with him. I hope I have sorted out that misunderstanding.

let us assume you went to asked for a contract of over a billion from the finance minister, the finace minister will still have to consul the president, and the president will have to approve, hence you have approached the president indirectly, or did your analogy missed common sense?

And do you know the white man were the ones who thought us the word God(english), they conceive God as a trinity, using your rational, do you now claim that Oludumare is part of the three?

Pastor AIO:

Finally I want to point out to you the highly speculatory nature of the rest of your post. full of coulds, and mights and possibilities. We are having a factual discussion here and yes anything could happen in history, including the possibility that Allah is an ancient arab diety with 3 daughters that was re-worked by a camel herder called muhammad and made into a sole diety that created the world. Furthermore I could speculate as to why anybody might want to force this Allah notion unto the Yoruba Eledumare.

You hardly address the "speculation" and the post was clearly directed at thehommer, who has the tendancy of making baseless "speculations", and central to what I wrote was clearl oral tradition could have been lost along the milenia as the Yoruba had no written docutment. On your speculation, it hardly made sense.

^^^^^^ Leave pastorAIO alone. he is herding his flocks into abyss; Jahanam by his arrogance.

Alhamdulillah, we are muslims and some of us are yorubas. And maybe among us persons older by a decade or so than he is.

Does he know about yoruba than all of us put together? I say not quite.

Before his conception there were yoruba muslims who say Olorun o, or Eledumare o, or Olodumare o. They actually meant Allah.


There were christians who say the same meaning the father entity of the christian trinity.
Ebenezer Obey said iba feledumare o . . . anbe ee o . . . and he was talking about the father in his trinity alone.


Before pastor's time, i think American singer Lemmon Dozier in colaboration with Dr. Osunfison of UI theater art department had a song titled "Eru o bo do', with lyric where Eledumare was mentioned, asking Him about the age of Odo "river' versus man.

Dr. Osunfison must know more yoruba than pastor.


Did Ibrahim called Allah YHWH when he and his son Ismail were building Kaaba? Did they associate 3 daughters with Him? Did Muhammad [as] had to rework or return people's mind to the purity which was at the beginning?

Lets go back further, Did Adam call his Creator 'I am that I am" or YHWH or by a real Name that is definitely Personal; Allah?
It is believed that Adam lived in Makka, prostrated his face at the sight of the Kaaba, in offering sincere repentance, which was accepted. Even the Bible [new or old testament] never said he arrived in Jerusalem once. Was the first builder of the Kabba, being Adam say that his Creator is associated with three daughters, as the arab pagans and pastorAIO believed? These are facts, not the type of guess work of the 'eminent' pastor.

if the pagan yorubas didnt worship Olodumare through the many lesser gods, was there a group among the pre Christian pre Islam yorubas who worshiped Eledumare/Olodumare? what were they known as when the people who worhip orisha for example are known as olorisha, the sango worshipers as onisango?

by the way the music of lemmon dozier above spoke about the journey of the questioners in the song going about to gods who could not know the older between land 'aiye' and sea 'odo' because they were not the Creator. it was when they got the opportunity to ask Eledumare 'ope ni fun Eledumare [they said], that they knew the answer that it was odo. even the yorubas know that the land rose from under the water.

I know of christians in a near by church in my neighnourhood that say when praying. 'ni oruko jesu, olorun olodumare dari ese wa jiwa' . I think they reffered the christian god as Olodumare

vedaxcool:

I understand from your post that you are not seeing properly and hence you have to use proxies to read simple post.

What proxies? It seems you're very confused.

vedaxcool:

Actually is syncretism I was trying to write though your arguments are more of syncopated rythms than reasonable points.

This is a terrible attempt at covering up your error. Why didn't you simply accept the mistake you made rather than trying to turn it into something else? Could this be pride?

vedaxcool:

It seems you hardly read what I wrote as my question is simple was Oludumare always worshipped via lesser gods? in essence sweetnecta was only restating Islamic Philosophy that is there can be only one supreme being that is ALLAH. You were the same person in the thread 'History of God' that the Jews coppied their God from pagan belief and then other Abrahmic faith folowed suit, this you surpotted based on their supposed similarities, now you are here using all your throat muscles to insist that Oludumare is not the same with ALLAH simply because Oludumare is worshipped via lesser gods, despite the similarities with one of the Attributes o ALLAH -the Supreme being- if you have ever been truthful it value would clearly be evident in your polemics yet you usually use the blind method. Now you are insisting on diffrences, what of their similarities? ALL the above are seen as supreme beings. Do you see the similarity?

Pastor AIO has made a pertinent correction which is that Olodumare was not worshipped via lesser Gods. You also need to consider the other characters associated with this entity e.g Obatala, Oduduwa and others. What is their place with Allah and Jehovah?
With respect to the Middle Eastern religions, one can easily see the relationships especially when we consider the fact that the characters are similar and bear similar names, performed similar deeds etc. In the Nigerian context, there are huge differences and little to no similarities between the entities of Olodumare and Chukwu yet they are not as geographically distant as the important regions in the Middle East.
Sure they are seen as supreme beings but so also were Chukwu, Shiva, Waheguru, Brahman etc. So what? It seems you also wish to ignore the other entities associated with these Gods.

vedaxcool:

No, according to you Yoruba don't know their oral History or mythology, as what I clearly wrote was that there is a possibility that the oral tradition could have been altered over a long period of time, as religions dependent solely on oral tradition will be very dynamic an ever changing. this i hope will b easy for you to understand.

What you are actually implying is that what we know as the Yoruba mythology is probably wrong due to the difference with Islam.

vedaxcool:

Have considered that oral Tradition could have produced such myths of Oludumre? or is it only when you talk of Islam/Judaism/Christianity you begin to consider of alteration and looses?

Yes I have. But, what was it prior to the current myths? Can you show the culture these concepts were borrowed from?

vedaxcool:

On Syncretism, you really showed how an average athesit is rational, the best possible time syncretism would have work in getting adherents for Islam or Christianity is when these religions just entered Africa or nigeria to be precise, yet this two religion were clearly anti traditional religion in their practice and preaching, yet according to you sweetnecta is trying to use syncretism as a means of getting adherent in the digital age after tons of the adherents of ATR have vastly dwindled? no that is not rational thinking and nowhere did sweetnecta calmoured to make sango a prophet of ALLAH.

You have it right. And from history, we can tell that Christianity and Islam were able to work best when they originally got into the region.
No that's not what I'm saying. I'm simply pointing out that due to syncretism, the previous generations of Nigerians were better able to adopt these alternate concepts of God. The fact that this happened does not mean that the Gods were the same since from their mythologies, we can tell that they were not the same.
I really hope you're not trying to demonstrate how the average Muslim reasons.

can thehomer or his 'mentor' pastoeaio tell us when was the first 'lesser god' invented/installed on earth, and why it came about [the reason or the process it was manifested]?

if either one of you know, can you share with us if you think the yorubas kinda copy this idea to formulate their lesser gods?

in either case, was it not a fact that The Singularly Unique Creator [God/Olodumare, Chineke, etc] was already known?

will you share with us who believe in a Creator [the people with lesser gods believe in a Creator, too] if Adam was not a believer in a Creator that created him? or are you saying that Creator concept came about long after Adam?

i am asking you a chicken or the egg question. which is first to be known; One God the Creator, or the many lesser gods concept, before One God? Adam must have worshiped through one of the two the first time he worshiped. the One Who created him and warmed him against nearing a particular tree is One God.

tell us your version of events. we in Islam know our version, the truth.

@Thehomer; whats the average muslim thinking?
is it a poor thinking because it disagrees with yours? you do know that there s only one truth; it is unchanging will lies switches a lot.

neither you nor the pastor will be able to give us the names of those yorubas who worshiped Olodumare alone before christianty or islam or judaism arrived there [i dont know a yoruba jew, but there are some igbo jews, so replace Olodumare with Chineke and my statement is still valid]. or will either or both of you argue that the pre christianity, pre islam, pre judaism knew of Olodumare [pastor already stated it], but with that knowledge they left Him alone unworshiped, neither directly nor through the lesser gods they assume to be His representative on earth, bringing them closer to Him while acting as the intermediary because they often feel that they are rather too inferior to approach Him, directly. this is the same idea that the christians and many others carry on, today while they call themselves His children.

but the muslims who say that they are His slave, instead of installing patrons or partners approach Him and talk to Him, One on one.

Sweetnecta:

can thehomer or his 'mentor' pastoeaio tell us when was the first 'lesser god' invented/installed on earth, and why it came about [the reason or the process it was manifested]?

if either one of you know, can you share with us if you think the yorubas kinda copy this idea to formulate their lesser gods?

in either case, was it not a fact that The Singularly Unique Creator [God/Olodumare, Chineke, etc] was already known?

will you share with us who believe in a Creator [the people with lesser gods believe in a Creator, too] if Adam was not a believer in a Creator that created him? or are you saying that Creator concept came about long after Adam?

i am asking you a chicken or the egg question. which is first to be known; One God the Creator, or the many lesser gods concept, before One God? Adam must have worshiped through one of the two the first time he worshiped. the One Who created him and warmed him against nearing a particular tree is One God.

tell us your version of events. we in Islam know our version, the truth.

What is the relevance of the above? I ask because it does not address any of the issues raised.

Sweetnecta:

@Thehomer; whats the average muslim thinking?
is it a poor thinking because it disagrees with yours? you do know that there s only one truth; it is unchanging will lies switches a lot.

I was simply hoping that vedaxcool was only speaking for himself because he just veers off topic.

Sweetnecta:

neither you nor the pastor will be able to give us the names of those yorubas who worshiped Olodumare alone before christianty or islam or judaism arrived there [i dont know a yoruba jew, but there are some igbo jews, so replace Olodumare with Chineke and my statement is still valid]. or will either or both of you argue that the pre christianity, pre islam, pre judaism knew of Olodumare [pastor already stated it], but with that knowledge they left Him alone unworshiped, neither directly nor through the lesser gods they assume to be His representative on earth, bringing them closer to Him while acting as the intermediary because they often feel that they are rather too inferior to approach Him, directly. this is the same idea that the christians and many others carry on, today while they call themselves His children.

but the muslims who say that they are His slave, instead of installing patrons or partners approach Him and talk to Him, One on one.

They worshiped Olodumare too. They made sacrifices to him etc. The main point I'm making is that due to the difference in the characters involved with Olodumare, he cannot conceivably be the same entity as Allah.