PhysicsMHD said:

Previous civilizations were not self-aware and did not dream of the possibility of their entire civilization crumbling into nothingness.

That's a ridiculous assertion!

Are you suggesting that introspective philosophy of the type that leads learned men to envision societal collapse began with the west?

They were not aware that previous civilizations had reached their apogee and then come crashing down.

You grossly underestimate the knowledge and SOPHISTICATION of ancient civilizations, in particular, PRE-WESTERN civilizations.

ROSSIKE:

PhysicsMHD said:

That's a ridiculous assertion!

Are you suggesting that introspective philosophy of the type that leads learned men to envision societal collapse began with the west?

You grossly underestimate the knowledge and SOPHISTICATION of ancient civilizations, in particular, PRE-WESTERN civilizations.

The Romans assumed thier civilization would last forever, as did the persians and the egyptians. the malians concept of ther finitity was so skewed that their king gave away hundreds of millions of dollars worth of gold on one trip to Mecca. The chinese were so blinded by their perception of perpetual dominance that they ignored every indication that thier days were numbered until they became the LovePeddler of the world. The History of these fallen empires is well taught and understood in 'western society'
and thus they made plans for their civiliations future. The western domination should have ended with colonization but they created globalization to keep the system going. The Roman empire lasted for about a thosand years and the military advantages they had over their enimies were NOTHING compared to what we see today with the west,  at this rate the domination of the world by the western powers will last a very long time,  keep in mind how much money they spend on weapons and technology, billions of $ - thats planning for the future.

however, there are several indicators that the wests time is numbered.
[list]
[li]lowered birth rates- smaller workforces/ smaller armies more immigrants and the populations are aging[/li]
[li]Softening of the populace- people are less willing to do dificult jobs and endure hardship[/li]

[list]
[li]people in the west are also becoming more ignorant and less educated in comparison with other countries especially in Asia[/li]
[li]The majority of people in the west are actually good decent people, not the ruthless killers and thives they once were- the government must sugarcoat its activities.[/li]
[/list]
but the real problem is not the West its the North. look at a map and you will notice that most of the powerfull countries are in the far north of the globe. When the west falls  countries like China and korea will just take its place. The honest truth is that china is obviously at a lower stage of societal development than the west is. And they will have less quams about blantant and horrible human rights abuses in the name of their national interests than the softened people in countries in like Europe and America. People in the west derive a great deal of their self esteem from beliving that they are the good guys.

ROSSIKE:

PhysicsMHD said:

That's a ridiculous assertion!

Are you suggesting that introspective philosophy of the type that leads learned men to envision societal collapse began with the west?

Actually, that's exactly what I'm saying.


Find me anything from the Islamic Golden Age, or the Greek/Roman writings, or the Egyptian writings, or the Mesopotamian writings, or the Mesoamerican hieroglyphs, or anything in any Mali/Songhai writings, or even any such idea in African arts of Benin, Ife, Ashanti, etc., or any writing from Aksum/Abyssinia/Ethiopia, or the Chinese, or the Indians, or anything from Nubia/Kush/Makuria which shows a kind of self-awareness of the possible end of their society as they knew it.

I can only think of the Mayans and their doomsday like prophecies, but even there, it's not so clear cut that they actually believed their society would end. There are other interpretations.


If you can find a real counterexample, I'll retract my statement.

Western thinkers are even studying whether the universe might possibly end and how it might happen, not just how their society might end.

You grossly underestimate the knowledge and SOPHISTICATION of ancient civilizations, in particular, PRE-WESTERN civilizations.

There's a big difference between sophistication (social, religious, artistic, technological, etc.) and having a greater consciousness of how the world works or being able to look at your own local society from a global, historical perspective.

With the advantage of historically induced self-awareness, this Western might that you loathe so much will probably only slightly decline, rather than come crashing down to insignificance. I'm just being realistic about this.

pleep wrote:

The Romans assumed their civilization would last forever, as did the persians and the egyptians. the malians concept of ther finitity was so skewed that their king gave away hundreds of millions of dollars worth of gold on one trip to Mecca. The chinese were so blinded by their perception of perpetual dominance that they ignored every indication that thier days were numbered until they became the LovePeddler of the world. The History of these fallen empires is well taught and understood in 'western society'
and thus they made plans for their civiliations future. The western domination should have ended with colonization but they created globalization to keep the system going. The Roman empire lasted for about a thousand years and the military advantages they had over their enimies were NOTHING compared to what we see today with the west,  at this rate the domination of the world by the western powers will last a very long time.

I'm sorry, but simply ''planning'' for your civilization to last forever is wrong-headed and doomed to failure, if the basis of your ''plan'' is at variance with the pulse of the earth, or what some refer to as natural law.

Any system built on dominance will inevitable collapse because of the strains and contradictions inherently embedded in such a system. It's like a boiling pot. You can only keep the lid on it for so long before it overflows. Dominance of one by another is contrary to the most basic, fundamental human ideal, and therefore, at some point will meet the necessary resistance internally or externally, that will ultimately kill it. Thus any system characterized by the dominance of one group of humans by another will ALWAYS meet its waterloo, no matter what ''plans'' are put in place with the hope of achieving infinite dominance.



The Final Decline of the West

Dominique Moisi
     

http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/moisi51/English

PARIS

In 2040/2050, will demographers speak of the white man’s loneliness in the way historians once referred to the white man’s burden to describe the so-called imperial responsibilities of some European nations?

Demography is not an exact science. Countless dire predictions, from that of Malthus to that of the Club of Rome, have been proven wrong. But, according to a recent and very convincing essay published in the magazine Foreign Affairs , a dual demographic and economic trend is taking place that will result in spectacular shifts by the middle of this century. The Western world will represent only 12% of the world’s population, with Europeans reduced to 6%. (In 1913, a year before the outbreak of World War I, Europe was slightly more populated than China.) Economically, the West will account for around 30% of global output  a level that corresponds to Europe’s share in the eighteenth century and down from 68% in 1950.

What we are witnessing can be seen is a return to the past, with the West returning to its old place in the world before the start of China’s long process of historical decline at the beginning of the nineteenth century. The West’s long period of global dominance is ending, encouraged and accelerated by its own mistakes and irresponsible behavior. We are entering a new historical cycle, in which there will be proportionally fewer Westerners, more Africans and Middle Easterners, and  with greater relevance economically and strategically  many more Asians.

It is with these figures in mind that one must consider Barack Obama’s decision not to attend the next European-American summit that was due to take place in Madrid in May. It would be tempting to use a formula coined during the Cold War to describe the comparative evolution of the United States and the Soviet Union and to apply the notion of competitive decline to the relationship between the US and Europe. An America that may be undergoing a process of relative if not absolute decline chooses to ignore a Europe that in US eyes is no longer a problem compared with Asia or the Middle East, and that offers little help in finding solutions to the problems that most vex Americans.

In a hasty and excessively provocative manner, some in the American media are starting to speak of Obama as a second Jimmy Carter and predict that he will serve only one term. What is more serious is the impression that the American political system, with its inability to transcend party divisions and forge national consensus, is increasingly sclerotic.

America's political institutions have aged like the country’s infrastructure. They were devised more than two centuries ago for a mostly agrarian world. Today, they need to be amended and rejuvenated. But that may not be possible, given the sacrosanctity with which many Americans regard the US Constitution.

As for the European Union, the problem is not what will not happen in Madrid. The EU’s problem is much more what happened in Copenhagen last December at the summit to save the planet, or what is taking place before our eyes with the challenge to the euro posed by the weakness of some of its member states, most prominently Greece.

In Copenhagen, Europe came with a common and responsible position. The EU was showing the way to other great actors and behaved as the good pupil of the world class. The Union was ignored, with the US and China choosing to disagree over its head. Europe must realize that it cannot be seen as a model for anyone if no one any longer takes it seriously as a global actor.

But how can you be taken seriously by others if you do not take yourself seriously? The EU’s new High Representative for external affairs, Baroness Catherine Ashton, tried to justify her failure to go to Haiti in the immediate aftermath of its terrible earthquake by saying, I am neither a nurse nor a fire person. Lack of such skills did not keep US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton from traveling to the scene of the devastation to show here support and concern.

Confronted with revolutionary demographic and economic transformations, Americans and Europeans should behave in a much more responsible manner. Instead of ignoring the other (the American way) or lamenting a wounded ego (the European way), they should confront the common challenges they face as a result of a globalization process that they are no longer able to master.

Dominique Moisi is a Visiting Professor at Harvard University and the author of The Geopolitics of Emotion.

ROSSIKE:

pleep wrote:

I'm sorry, but simply ''planning'' for your civilization to last forever is wrong-headed and doomed to failure, if the basis of your ''plan'' is at variance with the pulse of the earth, or what some refer to as natural law.

Any system built on dominance will inevitable collapse because of the strains and contradictions inherently embedded in such a system. It's like a boiling pot. You can only keep the lid on it for so long before it overflows. Dominance of one by another is contrary to the most basic, fundamental human ideal, and therefore, at some point will meet the necessary resistance internally or externally, that will ultimately kill it. Thus any system characterized by the dominance of one group of humans by another will ALWAYS meet its waterloo, no matter what ''plans'' are put in place with the hope of achieving infinite dominance.



The Final Decline of the West

Dominique Moisi


http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/moisi51/English

PARIS

In 2040/2050, will demographers speak of the white man’s loneliness in the way historians once referred to the white man’s burden to describe the so-called imperial responsibilities of some European nations?

Demography is not an exact science. Countless dire predictions, from that of Malthus to that of the Club of Rome, have been proven wrong. But, according to a recent and very convincing essay published in the magazine Foreign Affairs , a dual demographic and economic trend is taking place that will result in spectacular shifts by the middle of this century. The Western world will represent only 12% of the world’s population, with Europeans reduced to 6%. (In 1913, a year before the outbreak of World War I, Europe was slightly more populated than China.) Economically, the West will account for around 30% of global output a level that corresponds to Europe’s share in the eighteenth century and down from 68% in 1950.

What we are witnessing can be seen is a return to the past, with the West returning to its old place in the world before the start of China’s long process of historical decline at the beginning of the nineteenth century. The West’s long period of global dominance is ending, encouraged and accelerated by its own mistakes and irresponsible behavior. We are entering a new historical cycle, in which there will be proportionally fewer Westerners, more Africans and Middle Easterners, and with greater relevance economically and strategically many more Asians.

It is with these figures in mind that one must consider Barack Obama’s decision not to attend the next European-American summit that was due to take place in Madrid in May. It would be tempting to use a formula coined during the Cold War to describe the comparative evolution of the United States and the Soviet Union and to apply the notion of competitive decline to the relationship between the US and Europe. An America that may be undergoing a process of relative if not absolute decline chooses to ignore a Europe that in US eyes is no longer a problem compared with Asia or the Middle East, and that offers little help in finding solutions to the problems that most vex Americans.

In a hasty and excessively provocative manner, some in the American media are starting to speak of Obama as a second Jimmy Carter and predict that he will serve only one term. What is more serious is the impression that the American political system, with its inability to transcend party divisions and forge national consensus, is increasingly sclerotic.

America's political institutions have aged like the country’s infrastructure. They were devised more than two centuries ago for a mostly agrarian world. Today, they need to be amended and rejuvenated. But that may not be possible, given the sacrosanctity with which many Americans regard the US Constitution.

As for the European Union, the problem is not what will not happen in Madrid. The EU’s problem is much more what happened in Copenhagen last December at the summit to save the planet, or what is taking place before our eyes with the challenge to the euro posed by the weakness of some of its member states, most prominently Greece.

In Copenhagen, Europe came with a common and responsible position. The EU was showing the way to other great actors and behaved as the good pupil of the world class. The Union was ignored, with the US and China choosing to disagree over its head. Europe must realize that it cannot be seen as a model for anyone if no one any longer takes it seriously as a global actor.

But how can you be taken seriously by others if you do not take yourself seriously? The EU’s new High Representative for external affairs, Baroness Catherine Ashton, tried to justify her failure to go to Haiti in the immediate aftermath of its terrible earthquake by saying, I am neither a nurse nor a fire person. Lack of such skills did not keep US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton from traveling to the scene of the devastation to show here support and concern.

Confronted with revolutionary demographic and economic transformations, Americans and Europeans should behave in a much more responsible manner. Instead of ignoring the other (the American way) or lamenting a wounded ego (the European way), they should confront the common challenges they face as a result of a globalization process that they are no longer able to master.

Dominique Moisi is a Visiting Professor at Harvard University and the author of The Geopolitics of Emotion.

hmm. Thats a very interesting article, i think i agree with you on this one. The west is declining and it is unnatural for one group on people to dominate a larger group of people.
However, do you think that that the rise of china will be good for people in the developing world? africa in particular.

phew!

When i insisted on the dominance of the West, i wasn't talking in economic terms, but rather military terms. Economically, China is likely to overtake US as the biggest economy, but even at that, one cannot be too sure, the same has been said of Japan and the Eurozone, which in most situation are always marked with an initial erratic growth before a final peak.

In terms of military, the west will remain the Inglorious bersterds throughout the next century! Like it or not, this is just the case.

the ameerican and british economies are on the verge of bankruptcy - their days of glory are fast running out and they know this, this is why they are fighting tooth and nail to hang on and prevent the ascension of china, the sun is about to set on the anglo/american empire, but like desperadoes they will do whatever it takes even if it means starting up a third world war to remain on top, the anglo americans do not want to live in a world where they are the underdogs.

cap28:

the anglo americans do not want to live in a world where they are the underdogs.

You know nothing of the British yet you claim to live in the UK.

The average UK citizen could care less about being a powerful nation. British national psyche is always slanted in favour of the underdog.
You forget that the British had an Empire already. The largest one in history. They don't look back on it fondly but are taught to view it with shame.

The UK economy is not on the verge of bankruptcy either. The Cameron government is scrabbling the money back through austerity measures and reckon that they will have the defecit wiped out within the next 4 years. Don't you watch the news in the country you live in?

Bastage:

You know nothing of the British yet you claim to live in the UK.

The average UK citizen could care less about being a powerful nation. British national psyche is always slanted in favour of the underdog.
You forget that the British had an Empire already. The largest one in history. They don't look back on it fondly but are taught to view it with shame.

The UK economy is not on the verge of bankruptcy either. The Cameron government is scrabbling the money back through austerity measures and reckon that they will have the defecit wiped out within the next 4 years. Don't you watch the news in the country you live in?

if you were an observant person you would notice that i have been very studiously ignoring you because i prefer to engage in debates or conversations which are useful or productive, since the chances of that happening are absolutely zero with someone of your mindset, i have chosen to completely ignore you, i would appreciate it if you would kindly stop bothering me with your comments, observations or "analysis" because i am not remotely interested in anything you have to say - thanks.

You have confused me with someone who gives a damn.
For as long as you keep posting bullsh!t, I'll keep pointing out what a cretin you are. 

Bastage:

You have confused me with someone who gives a damn.
For as long as you keep posting bullsh!t, I'll keep pointing out what a cretin you are.

Your "opinions" mean nothing to me, you are nothing but a great big ZERO in my consciousness, i on the other hand mean quite a lot to you thats why you feverishly hang on my every word like a lovesick teenager, thanks but no thanks, im not looking for a groupie or fan club right now but if i do ill go for a one with a brain - not a braindead uncle tom like you.

^^ Which is why, after telling me that you're ignoring me, you feel the need to reply.

I think you're confused.

violent said:

phew!

When i insisted on the dominance of the West, i wasn't talking in economic terms, but rather military terms.  Economically, China is likely to overtake US as the biggest economy, but even at that, one cannot be too sure, the same has been said of Japan and the Eurozone, which in most situation are always marked with an initial erratic growth before a final peak.

In terms of military, the west will remain the Inglorious bersterds throughout the next century!  Like it or not, this is just the case.

The west cannot enjoy military dominance without economic dominance.

With their population and economic output on a sharp downward slide, it will adversely affect their ability to maintain any form of military dominance in the decades ahead.

The real question is, will a dominant Asia be better for Africa than a dominant Europe/America?

China may not be nicer to us than America and Britain. Look at Zimbabwe and China.

strangelo said:

The real question is, will a dominant Asia be better for Africa than a dominant Europe/America?

China may not be nicer to us than America and Britain. Look at Zimbabwe and China.

The important thing to note is that Africa itself is not just sitting idly by while things are happening around it. In fact of the 10 fastest growing economies on earth, four are in Africa.

http://developmentafrique.com/?p=61

So when the dust settles, Africa will not be in the same weak position she was when Europe came to exploit her. Nigeria alone is projected to be the 6th largest economy in the world by 2050, with an annual GDP of $9.5 trillion, if current growth rates are maintained.

http://www.businessinsider.com/fastest-growing-economies-2011-2?op=1

And make no mistake, in the years leading up to 2050, Nigeria will pursue the military might commensurate with that position just as surely as France, USA, Britain and Russia are doing today!

So Africa will be nobody's sitting duck in the future at all.

One dies as fighter jet crashes in Kano
By Agency Reporter
Tuesday, 22 Mar 2011


View All (15) Comment(s)
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Mohammed Dikko Umar
A Nigerian Air Force fighter jet on Tuesday crashed while taking off from a flight school near the Mallam Aminu International Airport in Kano, killing its pilot.

The plane, one of several Chinese F7 jets purchased by the Nigerian government, failed to lift off from the runway the military flight school shares with the airport around 12.30pm, witnesses said.

The plane crashed while still on the airport‘s ground and immediately exploded, The Associated Press reports.

The spokesman of the Nigerian Air Force, Air Commodore Yusuf Anas, confirmed the development in a statement.
Anas said the plane recently had been brought from an air base in Makurdi.




Just to fly a plane is a problem. is this how they will defend the country. how often do things like this happen in foreign countries? once in 55 yrs but in nija once every 4 yrs. its a shame

ROSSIKE:

strangelo said:

The important thing to note is that Africa itself is not just sitting idly by while things are happening around it. In fact of the 10 fastest growing economies on earth, four are in Africa.

http://developmentafrique.com/?p=61

So when the dust settles, Africa will not be in the same weak position she was when Europe came to exploit her. Nigeria alone is projected to be the 6th largest economy in the world by 2050, with an annual GDP of $9.5 trillion, if current growth rates are maintained.

http://www.businessinsider.com/fastest-growing-economies-2011-2?op=1

And make no mistake, in the years leading up to 2050, Nigeria will pursue the military might commensurate with that position just as surely as France, USA, Britain and Russia are doing today!

So Africa will be nobody's sitting duck in the future at all.

Why do you always take delight in deceiving yourself.Your middle name should have been 'state of denial'.Keep indulging in tomfoolery if it makes you sleep better

^^^ Put it this way - I listen to credible sources with 50 times your intelligence and information. That's why you cannot relate.

I have simply refused to engage you in a back & forth because that would be a collosal waste of my time.Dude,you can always try kobojunkie,i'm pretty sure she'll be happy to oblige you cuz like you she's unyielding even when you both know what you're spewing is bunkum & pure unbridled bollocks

^^Dude give it a rest already. You can always stay away from Nigeria indefinitely if you hate it so much. ROSSIKE is right that expert projections place Nigeria at the forefront of nations in the future. It's not as if those experts are unaware of societal ills like corruption, inefficiency etc. But other nations have developed in the long run despite having those problems. Nigeria won't be any different.

Socrates once said:'man know thy self'. Nothin cld be worse than self deceit. Y'all can keep deluding yourselves.& FYI u don't luv Nigeria anymore than i do so taq all that blind patriotism & shove down ur throat

I enjoy these types of discussions. Maybe I should leave the Politics section alone and focus only on the Foreign Affairs section of Nairaland.

cold said:

Socrates once said:'man know thy self'. Nothin cld be worse than self deceit.

Socrates was referring to individual responsibility, not the discussion of national issues.

Y'all can keep deluding yourselves. & FYI u don't luv Nigeria anymore than i do so taq all that blind patriotism & shove down your throat

You cannot respond to expert projections as were referred to and to cover your deficiency, you claim 'blind patriotism' on the part of the person who presented them. All you've shown is your intellectual impotence.

Jen33:

cold said:


Socrates was referring to individual responsibility, not the discussion of national issues.


You cannot respond to expert projections as were referred to and to cover your deficiency, you claim 'blind patriotism' on the part of the person who presented them. All you've shown is your intellectual impotence.

I already told you,take your pseudo intelligence & stick it where the sun don't shine please.I don't suffer fools gladly

pleep:

however, there are several indicators that the wests time is numbered.
[list]
[li]lowered birth rates- smaller workforces/ smaller armies more immigrants and the populations are aging[/li]
[li]Softening of the populace- people are less willing to do dificult jobs and endure hardship[/li]

[list]
[li]people in the west are also becoming more ignorant and less educated in comparison with other countries especially in Asia[/li]
[li]The majority of people in the west are actually good decent people, not the ruthless killers and thives they once were- the government must sugarcoat its activities.[/li]
[/list]
but the real problem is not the West its the North. look at a map and you will notice that most of the powerfull countries are in the far north of the globe. When the west falls  countries like China and korea will just take its place. The honest truth is that china is obviously at a lower stage of societal development than the west is. And they will have less quams about blantant and horrible human rights abuses in the name of their national interests than the softened people in countries in like Europe and America. People in the west derive a great deal of their self esteem from beliving that they are the good guys.

Very true, India has more Phd holders that the USA has Bachelor degree holders, the consequence is that China and India now produce the majority of Engineers in the world today. And as we all know (i hope) technological advancement = economic development = military might = , The west is in decline and the east is on the rise, however the east needs Africa's resources to rise which is why its inevitable that Africa will continue to develop along side them.

ROSSIKE:

pleep wrote:

I'm sorry, but simply ''planning'' for your civilization to last forever is wrong-headed and doomed to failure, if the basis of your ''plan'' is at variance with the pulse of the earth, or what some refer to as natural law.

Any system built on dominance will inevitable collapse because of the strains and contradictions inherently embedded in such a system. It's like a boiling pot. You can only keep the lid on it for so long before it overflows. Dominance of one by another is contrary to the most basic, fundamental human ideal, and therefore, at some point will meet the necessary resistance internally or externally, that will ultimately kill it. Thus any system characterized by the dominance of one group of humans by another will ALWAYS meet its waterloo, no matter what ''plans'' are put in place with the hope of achieving infinite dominance.

well put, the current economic imbalance is unsustainable and like you stated if one looks at it from an objetive scientific standpoint its OBVIOUS that the balance is tipping already.

cap28:

the ameerican and british economies are on the verge of bankruptcy - their days of glory are fast running out and they know this, this is why they are fighting tooth and nail to hang on and prevent the ascension of china, the sun is about to set on the anglo/american empire, but like desperadoes they will do whatever it takes even if it means starting up a third world war to remain on top, the anglo americans do not want to live in a world where they are the underdogs.

USA has ran up the largest budget deficit of all time.  To put it bluntly the USA is BROKE!

The answer to thread is capital NO. Nigeria can not defend itself from an internal force of well-determined battalion.

Anybody who thinks Nigeria will progress beyond a mere geographical expression is a compound fool and needs to be flogged into deafness.

The country is built on a sandy foundation and the civil war completely closed the chapter on its formative stage.

the civil war completely closed the chapter on its formative stage

That is a very important point.

Well from all the post so far it is clear that if Europe decide to bombard us after the election rigging. We won't stand a chance. I wish things were different. Look at a poor country like North Korea? Every one is afraid of them. The best thing Nigeria can do now is to become allies with Israel. We could learn a lot from them. No country in this world today can stand against Israel. They are fighters from birth. Many years ago different Arab countries team up against Israel but they were crushed. So am of the opinion that we team up with Israel buy fighter jets, weapons and training. It will help us a Lot even to deal with our local security. Libya airforce was crippled within one week. Nigeria can't continue to relax. US is already warning us against rigging. Infact the entire AU can't stand broke N. Korea. Its a Shame