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|HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by light099(m): 6:57pm On Dec 16, 2020|
"I leave this as a message for posterity, for who or whoever is reading this at the moment and those who would read it in the future."
(Before you start, I'll like to say this. What made TENET abstruse is not just the plot, if you watch it several times you should understand the plot very well. Rather, what made the movie very difficult is the concept, the time travels, going forward and backwards, syncing them with happening events and the rest. All those involve mental simulation and calculation to adequately understand and also verify all what is going on. So, the moment you start to analyze everything in details and connect them with what's happening in the plot, that's when it all starts go haywire.
However, like I said, if you decide to focus on just the plot alone and concur with every other thing you see, without analyzing or attempting to understand or prove all you see in TENET. Then that way you wouldn't stress your head too much. After watching it couple of times, you should understand the plot very well.)
It’s very much normal that most TENET viewers worldwide were unable to fully grasp or understand the movie, that is why after watching it three days ago, I took the responsibility on myself to find time today to create this detailed explanation for other viewers. So if you've seen TENET, this thread is for you and if you're yet to watch it, this thread is also for you because you should really watch it.
It's likely going to be a long thread because of the explanations. If you've watched TENET, definitely you shouldn't have any reason to question why the thread is a long one. It is a thread for all TENET watchers worldwide.
For a complicated movie like Inception, you would be lucky to come across the right explanations. As for TENET, many months after its release, majority of those who watched it and those explaining it are unable to fully grasp and understand it.
TENET is a hard nut to crack, a difficult puzzle at that and it might have generated different sects online where fans debate opinions and try to understand the movie collectively. TENET isn't just that interesting brain-twisting movie for avid movie watchers, it's also a worthy discourse for philosophers, a hard puzzle for intellectuals, a source of questions for curious minds and a good mental exercise to stretch your brain with.
TENET is for everyone. If you’ve an average IQ, TENET hits your head, even if you've a genius IQ, immediately you start to understand it, that's when it starts hitting your head. Don't even try to understand it. The easiest way to go easy on your brain is to go with everything you see, even if you couldn't understand it. The moment you try to understand and analyse is when it start exploding into a more complex phenomenon and hit your head so hard.
You might wanna ask: if TENET is that difficult to understand or explain as claimed, why I’m I here to explain it?
Like I always say, there are levels to this shit. I only step into the scene when others reach a wall or barrier, so it’s quite possible I grasp in a day, what many couldn’t in months. This thread isn’t about me, I’m only here to make you understand the movie, that’s why you should focus on the message and not the messenger.
Again, you might pause and ask why I made a thread because of a movie. I also never knew I would be doing this as I never did it before. I've watched some highly fascinating movies before, but I've never been idle enough to put down just a single line about them, but here I'm I creating a full thread on TENET.
I mistakenly came across some comments about TENET which had propelled me to watch it few days ago and now I see it’s worth a whole thread.
TENET is like a new revelation and perspective to seeing the universe we live in. One thing I believe is, TENET is a game changer for future tech, but even if it is not the game changer, then it is a trigger to the game changer. I see the movie just as a 'theory of relativity' for time travel and a link that connects the parallel universe to our universe.
You might not get some explanations here if you’ve not watched the movie.
Then I might edit this thread as time goes on, if there's the need. I just watched TENET three days ago so there might be new revelations about it. But when I say edit, I only mean update, as in 'additions', I do not mean changing or removing what we have here now, because all I put here now are undebatable, nobody from wherever, not even Nolan himself can prove anything said here wrong.
|Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by light099(m): 6:58pm On Dec 16, 2020|
The title (TE-N-ET) itself is inverted, the concept of the of the movie is inversion, the movie is all inverted (it moved forward in time and came back in time to the same day it started with), and finally, the movie would definitely make your brain inverted.
In a world where the future had declared a secret ‘World War III’ on its past (which is the present), through a villain living in the present, who is a broker/intermediary between the present and the future.
A CIA agent who’s the protagonist created TENET with his team and travelled back in time to the past, to save the world and checkmate the doomsday attack by the antagonist (who’s the villain aforementioned).
Unlike what you thought of a Third World War, this wasn’t a nuclear war, rather it was as a result of climate change. The future could no longer bear the severe consequences of climate change, all caused by its predecessors in the past. The best solution it thought of was to go back in time and destroy the past where the problem all started from.
THE CONCEPT OF TENET
Inversion: This is TENET’s time travel concept. Many fiction movies have expressed their opinions about time travel and different school of thoughts about it exist, but TENET brought a new and unique perspective into time travel which it called ‘inversion’. This concept brought logic and science closer to time travel unlike the conventional metaphysical perspectives.
OTHER SUB-CONCEPTS AND POPULAR LINES IN TENET
* “Inversion” – A reverse version of an object, person, people, event or timeline.
* “What's happened has happened” – You can’t change things by going back to the past to do them differently. You only go back to the past to fulfill what had already happened.
* “Temporal Pincer Movement” – You witness an event in the present to have the knowledge of how it went, you then go back in time to make a change (although you can’t really go back to change what had happened, rather to fulfill it).
|Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by light099(m): 7:01pm On Dec 16, 2020|
HOW THINGS WORK IN TENET
* Time travel in TENET is only to the past (backwards/reverse), not to the future.
* To understand TENET better, focus more on the timelines than the events.
* “The present moment is the real you.” Take for example, in Protagonist/Neil first invasion on Oslo vault. The version of Protagonist on striped suit is his real self at that moment, while his version coming out of the turnstile with a black uniform and mask on, is his future. In second/reverse scene, his version with the mask is his real version while the one with striped suit is now his past.
* If you see two people (one facing you/the other backing you) go into the Turnstile the same time. It means inversion happened.
* If you see two people (one facing you/the other backing you) come out of the Turnstile the same time. It means 'de-inversion' would happen at that place/time in the future.
* In whatever you do, never should you forget this safety, golden rule - "If you do not see yourself in the proving window, do not enter the time travel machine." Lol. Turnstile 101 crash course delivered by Ives.
* It’s impossible to talk with people in opposite time because the speech is inverted and wouldn’t make any sense. All thanks to Sator who already knew this, reason why he transposed his words when interrogating the Protagonist in the warehouse after the Plutonium-241 heist.
|Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by light099(m): 7:02pm On Dec 16, 2020|
EXPLANATION ON THE TIME TRAVEL SCENES AND OTHER DIFFICULT SCENES
* The whole movie was said by Neil to be a Temporal Pincer Movement
Sometimes in the future, the Protagonist (Washington) formed what he called TENET - a team which would use time travel to save the present world from doomsday attack from the future.
Future Washington sent Neil and others of his army back to their past (which is now the present) to avert the oncoming doom and save the world.
* First/Second Oslo scenes
Neil and Washington planned to invade Oslo to steal a fake drawing from Sator's private vault in the Airport’s Freeport, in order to gain Kat's attention and also save her from the monster she had as husband. After the planned crashes that surrounded the invasion, they eventually gained access to the vault but instead of the drawing, they saw two masked guys running out of a Turnstile exactly the same time. After the scene, Washington met with Sator, saved his life and promised to help him steal the Plutonium 241 (all these to have close access to monitor whatever ill Sator is up to). Neil and Washington together with a team made a heist and stole the 241, having realized the incident, Sator went back to the past to retrieve the stolen 241 from Washington while holding Kat/Washington to ransom at gun point. The whole event left Kat shot by reverse bullets and the good guys were eventually saved from Sator by posterity army. Since Washington later inverted to chase an inverted Sator and Ives army also inverted as backup to save him (Washington), Neil with a wounded Kat also inverted and joined Washington in a Rotas shipping container while he was recovering from hypothermia (from Sator's attack).
Note: At this point they were all inverted.
The trio (Inverted/wounded Kat on a stretcher, Inverted Neil and inverted Washington) all in the container headed backward in time to Sator's Turnstile in Oslo Freeport, so as to de-invert themselves. When they reached Oslo, inverted Washington was the first one to de-invert so he could go ahead to prepare an ambulance for inverted/wounded Kat and Inverted Neil, but he encountered a past version of himself and the same initial fight scene played out, but this time around in reverse form. He escaped and got the ambulance ready, while his other two friends also de-inverted and joined him in the ambulance.
* Plutonium 241 heist/warehouse interrogation scenes
This is no doubt the most abstruse scenes in the whole movie, to make it worse, some important details were intentionally left out.
The best way to show mercy on your brain watching these scenes is to believe everything you see without trying to understand it. The moment you want to understand and start analyzing each event is when it's all start hitting your head so hard.
From these scenes, in the midst of his mischiefs, one good thing Sator was able to prove about himself here is that, he had mastered the use of his Turnstile and pincer movement above others.
So what really happened here?
We saw forward and inverted scenes, then inverted and past scenes all running simultaneously but we only saw single versions of Sator and Kat in those scenes instead of two versions (inverted and regular versions). Why this? If you've a deep mind and pay a lot of attention to details, these scenes would confuse you so much and make you stress your brain a lot. There are many questions to ask in these scenes and a lot to figure out.
What if I told you the moment Washington was being interrogated in the warehouse by Sator, there wasn't really any Sator at that time on the other side of the glass, only Kat was there. There was no Sator interrogating Washington. Sator only came in later, about almost the end of the interrogation, hit Washington with a gun on his head in order to ask him about the 241, but was intercepted by posterity army who invaded the scene. Sator had to run to the other side of the glass back in time to interrogate a past Washington. That was when the shooting (Kat) and interrogation really took place. Inverted Sator going back in time, backwardly interrogated a Washington moving forward in time.
That sounds crazy, isn't it?
There was also a single version of Kat in the scenes all through but when Sator came into the interrogation room and took Kat together with him back in time, there was still another Kat in that room. Why was there a shot/wounded Kat left in the room whom posterity army went to rescue (when Sator had already taken the only Kat in the scene together with him to the past)? Where did the second Kat come from?
Then what really happened at those scenes where Sator held Kat at gun point demanding Washington to throw him the 241 case? Then jumping from one car to another afterwards?
What really happened in those scenes was, Sator synched a regular version of Kat moving forward in time, with an inverted version of himself (Sator) moving backwards in time to the past, same with the cars and his accomplices.
How do you even sync two different set of people and events moving in opposite direction to function together as one. That itself sounds crazy.
Sator no doubt performed some difficult stunts in those scenes and I can't help but credit him for that.
* The last battle at Stalsk 12
Some team were red team, claimed to be moving forward in time while some were blue team, expected to move back in time. Everything and everywhere was rowdy, soldiers running forward and backwards, exploding structures rumbling from explosions and then getting assembled back into one entity like they were initially before explosion, shouts and yells everywhere and with the switches between backward and forward scenes, it's so hard for you to keep track of what the fck is really going on.
Actually all these are not relevant, these confusing clashes of events were just devices intentionally put in place by movie producers just to make your head even feel more heavy as the mentally stressing movie gradually comes to an end. So in those scenes, you'd better focus on the tunnel/dead drop, Neil, Ives, Washington, Kat and Sator on his yacht about to end his mischievous life on a good note, while he takes the whole world along with him.
EXPLANATION ON INEXPLICIT AND CONFUSING EVENTS
* In an emotional farewell between Washington and Neil, Washington finally discovered from the red trinket on Neil’s backpack, that it had been the same Neil who was saving his life all the while, from Kiev Opera until when he finally took a bullet in place of him inside the tunnel.
Before they finally departed, Neil said these to Washington, " You have a future in the past. Years ago for me.
Years from now for you. For me, I think this is the end of a beautiful friendship.” It was all like a seer from the future foretelling Washington about his future.
Well, a lot of emotional lines were dropped at this scene but the real explanation is: Washington is the one who created TENET in the future and he recruited Neil, and sent him (Neil) back in time in a pincer movement to recruit a past version of himself (Washington) so they could together avert the doomsday/World war III.
Neil died in the tunnel/dead drop and he had known Washington for years (from the future), so that moment for him was the end of their friendship. As for Washington, it is just the beginning of their friendship. The present Washington would keep growing and moving forward to his future where he would create TENET and recruit Neil and send him back to the past on the pincer movement/doomsday aversion mission.
* How did Sator retrieve the 241 from Washington?
It takes rigorous brain work to connect the dots here.
No vital clue was given in the movie as to this. It was deliberately left as hard puzzle for viewers to solve. There might have been different opinions online that Sator or his men picked it from the parked silver car which inverted Washington later drove in his inversion to the past, however none of these are correct.
These scenes are complicated and I might leave you confused if I explain in details. I'm just going to give you the answer.
Inverted Washington in the silver car going back in time held a phone tracking the 241 or 241 case, which means it was not with him at that time. In subsequent scene we saw Sator checking the glove box of the BMW, which means the 241 was not with him at this time. In-between those two scenes was where Sator retrieved it from Washington. Further details emerged later, after the car crash and rescue, when Washington told Neil 'he handed the 241 to Sator on a plate'. So in-between those scenes, inverted Washington handed the 241 to inverted Sator, most likely reluctantly, with an angry/inverted Sator holding a gun close to his head and asking for the 241. Lol.
The truth is, these scenes are way complicated with opposite events synced together. Some things are patched here, and if we saw the details, it's going to be all messed up big time. So Nolan left out the details at these heist scenes to serve dual purposes.
First, to conceal the mess from the viewers.
Secondly, to leave it as a puzzle for viewers to solve for themselves.
|Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by light099(m): 7:03pm On Dec 16, 2020|
DEBATES ON TENET
* Some fans hold the opinion that Neil is the grown-up, future version of Kat’s son.
First, when you go back in time, everything is the direct opposite of the norm, so people should also grow younger when they go back in time. We all know Kat’s son is a kid at that timeframe, so a grown version of him shouldn’t exist there.
Second, the movie gave no convincing hint or importance to such opinion throughout the movie. Therefore it is baseless.
Third, Neil's last word to Washington - 'I'll see you in the beginning friend."
Neil here clearly addressed Washington as his equal. Then throughout the movie, their relationship was more of friends within the same age group.
* Some fans claimed TENET would have been better as a series. Obviously not.
In the 2hrs movie, things are already getting mixed up and too interwoven. If the movie runs more than that time, there would be too many loose ends and jumbles. Then unlike other movies, TENET is not just a movie where you conjure events on your own terms. The time travel necessitated rigorous mental simulations, calculation and perfect syncing of the forward and backward events. With calculations and syncing from a longer running time, the director/producer/screenwriter might go into a sudden psychological coma or go nuts from overworking his brain.
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|Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by light099(m): 7:03pm On Dec 16, 2020|
FAILED SCENES AND SHORTCOMINGS OF TENET MOVIE
Would you not be surprised to know that even the producer and actors of TENET themselves were unable to totally grasp the concept of the movie they made? Assuming they were able to grasp it, some scenes would have been shot differently from what we have. TENET is as abstruse and complex as that. It’s a concept bigger than its conceptualist. TENET is way complicated, it's impossible for the screenwriter to completely think it through or perfectly solve it.
Some scenes were patched up, some were intentional deprived of full details so as to mask the jumbles. Even though the producer did a hell of a heavy-duty task in giving us this beautiful movie, nonetheless TENET still has loose ends that could not be tied. This shows no matter how hard you try to simulate reality, you would always come short. But perhaps I understood TENET more than Nolan himself, that’s why I’m here to point out some of those shortcomings. Some of these shortcomings are outside the scope of the movie and if I say them, you would be totally lost in a loop of confusion, that’s why I would only limit what I say to the ones you can see in the movie.
* The main theme war of the movie should not exist: Those from the future have already learnt that ‘what’s happened has happened’. They know it’s impossible to go back in time to alter events or kill their predecessors, so they won’t even launch a war to alter a past they know they can’t alter. If they (future) exist, it means their predecessors also survived.
* Self-annihilation talked about by Wheeler is incorrect. When the particles of a regular and inverted versions of a person contact, there won’t be any annihilation.
You can’t annihilate your present, when you already have a future. The inverted future version is an indication that the present version lived beyond that moment into the future.
* You shouldn’t need an oxygen cylinder to move back in time. Inverted or not, air is standard and so would work in any direction. However, all thanks to the oxygen mask which allows us to keep track of the inverted good and bad guys in the midst of the confusing, clustered events. Assuming they didn’t use oxygen cylinders, it would have been harder to follow events. So maybe it isn't really an error, this might be intentionally put in place to help viewers understand and follow time travel scenes better.
* Inversion in practice is impossible. In real life, imagine you suddenly sight someone on the road walking backwards, claiming to be going back to the past. Well-meaning individuals on the road would have blocked his/her path and taken time to ask the kind of weed he/she smoked. Then cars and things moving back and forth simultaneously in reality would definitely lead to collisions and clash of events.
* Then have you taken a moment to ask - what food did they eat all through their time travel adventure and pincer movements? Those cars, containers, aircrafts and every other thing they used in time travel, were they also inverted too? There are some things you just have to overlook in the movie and go with like a good kid.
* Protagonist/Neil’s second Oslo scene where inverted Neil nodded and told a back-walking, ‘de-inverted’ Washington to ‘go, go,’ is incorrect. De-inverted Protagonist at that scene is now moving forward in time again while inverted Neil with inverted Kat on a stretcher are still moving back in time, so they’re no longer on the same timeframe and cannot see each other anymore at that moment. In addition, the back-walking version of Protagonist who Neil was telling to go, wasn’t the exact reverse of the scene where he was coming out of the roller door. Only if you pay much attention to details would you notice this very short scene and even if you did, you might still not get what I’m really talking about here.
* In the Stalsk 12/hypocentre operation. Neil in inverted/blue team left his team, ‘de-inverted’ and ‘re-inverted’ himself several times in order to save Protagonist and Ives in the dead drop. This he did with a Turnstiles guarded by heavily armed Sator’s armies. He also left many versions of himself roaming aimlessly about in that scene. This daredevil stunt is impossible because he would have definitely been shot by one of Sator’s army before he could enter the tunnel to take a bullet for Protagonist. Then the 10 minutes limit of the intense operation wouldn’t permit him all those fancy inversions. Neil’s stunts at that operation was so much impossible but those are some of the things you just have to go with it.
* Neil bade Protagonist an emotional farewell after averting doomsday, but before that, an inverted Neil took a bullet in the tunnel/dead drop under the hypocentre and died. How would a dead Neil comeback to bade Washington farewell? Protagonist is red-team (forward time), a Neil who already died earlier (past) can’t come back in forward time (future) to bade a farewell. The scene is incorrect.
* The whole doomsday aversion scenes in the dead drop at Stalsk-12 is impossible. Sator proved himself to be a savvy user of his Turnstile and temporal pincer movement over his foes. Won’t Sator already gone forward and backward in time to know the result of the averted doomsday and therefore checkmate Protagonist and his team? In forward time there wasn’t a end of the world on 14th, will Sator still go back in time to 14th to end the world, knowing fully well that he can’t change the past?
* The movie talked about the future but the moment the main characters went back in time, the movie did not show us what happened in the normal rest of the world that kept moving forward in time. Have you paused a minute to ask this? Do the normal world, family and friends of the actors suddenly stopped seeing them the moment they went back in time or they still kept seeing another version of them? This is one big, important thing the movie failed to show, perhaps Nolan himself was unable to resolve or wrap his head around this and so carefully avoided such scenes.
Well, I know what happens as the rest of the world move forward in time, but I won’t start another long explanation here since it’s out of the scope of the movie.
|Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by light099(m): 7:04pm On Dec 16, 2020|
MY BEST LINE/CONVERSATION IN TENET
Neil: We just saved the world. Can't leave anything to chance.
Washington: But can we change things if we do it differently?
Neil: "What's happened's happened."
Which is an expression of faith in the mechanics of the world. It's not an excuse to do nothing.
Neil: Call it what you want.
Washington: What do you call it?
MY RATING OF TENET
Regardless of all the shortcomings I listed, TENET surely deserves not less than a 90% rating no matter the perspective you want to rate it from. TENET is more than an excellent movie, it’s more of a difficult classwork for the viewers. It’s not that kind of movie you watch while half of your playful mind is wrapped up in something else. To watch TENET, you would have to pay full attention while all the processors of your brain are firing on all cylinders.
I was surprised when I saw Rotten Tomatoes’ rating of TENET, but then I should be surprised if I’m ever surprised about a rating from Rotten Tomatoes, known for its rotten, incoherent ratings. A site where half-smart, sentimental critics use flimsy reasons to underrate a good movie and overrate a bad one. Never stable, always switching between moments of mood swings and performance swings. Today they impress you with their ratings, tomorrow they disappoint you. Today they are on the high side, tomorrow they are on the low side. I’ve known better not to pay unnecessary attention to those drunk, bipolar sadists on a movie review website who thought their tiny, lame opinions count in the midst of ocean of billions of worldwide viewers.
On their good days, when their rating is right, I give them a thumbs up but otherwise, on days when their reviews emanate from minds short of logical reasoning, they should shove such rating back the exact way it came.
As far as I’m concerned Rotten Tomatoes should shove it’s rating of TENET back the way it came because it doesn’t make TENET less of a 90% rating movie.
Finally, this is the end of a beautiful exposition, see you at the beginning friends.
|Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by light099(m): 9:18am On Dec 18, 2020|
This thread was created for TENET viewers/fans on Nairaland and other guests or anonymous visitors to this forum from all over the world.
Ishilove, MJBOLT, DrLevi, losprince, LotaTee, kendrick93, oyaskii, alexistaiwo, ashawoKGB, anozie09, Gratefulheart1, Jack273, LisaAnne, Chibudollar, Beorn, sajmark, realestniggah, Fidelismaria, holuwajobar, pu7pl3, Stonecoldstare1, SirWarlock, Chibudollar, wman, Bitchiamjay, Raalsalghul, johnyace, Josbreed, stonemind, newguy1, Friedyokes, joseph1832, Kaycee7
|Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by Raalsalghul: 9:58am On Dec 18, 2020|
I'm yet to see the film, need to be in the right frame of mind.
|Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by light099(m): 1:49pm On Dec 18, 2020|
Everyone should see the movie.
It's the most mentally demanding movie I've seen so far and it's not because of the plot, it's easy to understand that after watching it two or three times.
|Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by Aphroditee(f): 3:48pm On Dec 18, 2020|
I watched it.thoroughly enjoyed it
|Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by pu7pl3(m): 10:14pm On Dec 18, 2020|
I can't lie that Sator scene and the 3rd act confused the fvck out of me, I understood other parts of the movie but those 2 parts were a handful
|Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by LotaTee: 9:22am On Dec 19, 2020|
Thank you for this op, nice read.
|Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by wman(m): 10:14am On Dec 19, 2020|
Light099, you did a beautiful job Brother. Well done.
|Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by light099(m): 3:41pm On Dec 19, 2020|
Aphroditee:I more than enjoyed it. It was more like a psychological experience. Very intriguing, insightful and illuminating movie.
pu7pl3:Lol. The movie was more of a classwork than entertainment. I had to simulate all the time travel scenes personally and crosscheck with what Nolan did.
|Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by SisterFire(f): 1:16pm On Jan 07|
Mr tenets do you believe that LESBIANISM and reincanation is the cause of backwardness and gruesome shamelessness black Africans faces today ?
|Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by ortega004: 12:46pm On Jan 13|
Man.. Good write up... But There's so much about the movie you don't really understand... I'll just explain the ones I can write out..
Those in the future literally have no other choice but to do this because their world has been made Inhabitable by present day humans, so they have no choice but to turn back. So if they reverse the entropy of the world (which is what the algorithm is for) the environment would literally start to heal (undamage itself by moving backwards). No one knows for sure if it's impossible to succeed because the grandfather paradox is still a mystery (unsolvable).. So consequences are unknowable.
Self annihilation in the movie's premise is very much possible.. It's simple physics.. Antimatter and matter cannot coexist in the same space they'll simply create an explosion if they collide. That's what inversion does.. An inverted person touching their liner version is a positron and electron colliding.. Leads to annihilation.
You need your own oxygen because you are inverted and the world is not. Un-modified air cannot pass through the membranes of an inverted lung.. The same way you cannot hear linear sounds coherently because it would be propagating outwards from your ears in reverse order so it would sound like gibberish.. But that's dismissible because you don't need sound to survive.. However you need air to survive so they need the modified oxygen...
As for cars and planes, they don't need to invert cars, they'll simply drive them.. It would be difficult to handle and they would appear to be moving in reverse to everyone else.. The plane part is quite tricky because to everyone else it would literally just fall out of the sky.. Which is why in the script (didn't make it to the movies) wheeler specifically told the inverted protagonist to never attempt to fly a plane.
|Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by light099(m): 6:39pm On Jan 13|
ortega004:Nice attempt ortega004 but one important prerequisite orientation you might need the moment you step into this thread is that, I do understand the concept of TENET more than those who directed or acted it.
Then usually, when I say something, one thing those who attempt to drag with me realize eventually is that, I was right all along.
Whenever you step into a debate to drag things with me, the result is always predictable. I always come out right.
It happens all the time and I don't really think this would be an exception.
Do you still remember this line? "What's happened has happened”, like Neil always said. In this line lies the answer to the grandfather paradox.
You can't change the past, if you go back in time, you're only going back to fulfill what has already happened. Incase you didn't grasp these lines, I'll explain further.
Washington's first inversion back in time to get the 241, what did he discover? He realized he wasn't able to change anything. He finally agreed with Neil's line and said to Neil, " What's happened has happened, I get you now."
In the Oslo Freeport inversion scene, what happened? It's just the inverted repetition of the first fight in the vault. Isn't it? Neil and Washington only went back in time to Oslo Freeport to fulfill the first fight. Nothing changed.
When Sator went back in time to the 241 heist scene, did he change anything? Nope. He only went back in time to fulfill what already happened.
If you have a grandfather, a father and you also exist. Your existence had already happened, even if you go back in time, you're still going to arrive at the exact same result. As long as it has happened, you can't change it.
So, let me ask you, was posterity able to reverse the world with the algorithm? Were they able to change anything? No! As we rightly saw in the movie. They only arrive at the same result.
This is one concept future Neil understood very well, same with others from the future.
Self annihilation in the movie's premise is very much possible.. It's simple physics.. Antimatter and matter cannot coexist in the same space they'll simply create an explosion if they collide. That's what inversion does.. An inverted person touching their liner version is a positron and electron colliding.. Leads to annihilation."The result of an event supersedes the physics or dynamics of the event."
If you witnessed a BMW in a terrible collision with a lorry but couple of minutes later, you saw the same BMW drove off with no scratch on it. How do you interpret that? Which one would you believe? The collision (physics) or the BWM with no scratch (result)? You'd believe the result, obviously.
That means perhaps, in the course of the collision, somehow, the BMW was able to escape the impact, either miraculously or some other way. Whichever way, one thing is, the result was an indication the BMW survived the collision.
Your existence today is an indication you survived yesterday, your existence tomorrow is an indication you'd survive today.
Assuming there are parallel universes to our own universe, where our past and future are lived on. If by chance you had a glimpse of the parallel future universe and saw yourself in the year 2060. What does that mean? It means no matter what happens to you now, you already know you lived to the year 2060 because you already saw yourself on that timeline in the future.
When a forward/linear version comes in contact with it's inverted version. The inverted version is an indication the present linear version survived further to some point in the future. Worst case if annihilation should take place, only the future/inverted version annihilates. The present version would definitely still survive and go forward in time to fulfill it's future action perhaps until that time when the inverted version annihilates.
I can go on explaining this all day.
You need your own oxygen because you are inverted and the world is not. Un-modified air cannot pass through the membranes of an inverted lung.. The same way you cannot hear linear sounds coherently because it would be propagating outwards from your ears in reverse order so it would sound like gibberish.. But that's dismissible because you don't need sound to survive.. However you need air to survive so they need the modified oxygen...Like I said, air is standard and would work in any direction.
What happens when you breathe? You inhale air. Isn't it? then you exhale the air (which is the inverted action of your initial inhalation). Interesting, isn't it?
That means in breathing, you're acting both the linear and inverted action.
What about the air? It's a combination of both your inhalation and your exhalation.
We can go a step further to say, breathing/air are mixtures of both the linear action and inverted action.
So if you invert breathing and air, you're still going to arrive at the same result of inhalation/exhalation.
That is why they don't need any inverted air, the standard air is already a mixture of it's linear and inverted form. It's still the exact same thing.
As for cars and planes, they don't need to invert cars, they'll simply drive them.. It would be difficult to handle and they would appear to be moving in reverse to everyone else.. The plane part is quite tricky because to everyone else it would literally just fall out of the sky.. Which is why in the script (didn't make it to the movies) wheeler specifically told the inverted protagonist to never attempt to fly a plane.You already contradicted yourself so much here. A while ago, you agreed and said "you are inverted and the world is not."
So, I ask you, if you say un-modified air cannot pass through the membranes of an inverted lung, would un-modified food pass through?
"You're inverted, the world is not." So how do you expect an inverted person to drive a forward/un-inverted car?
Normal life is in positive dimension/plane while inversion is in negative dimension/plane, that is why inversion moves in reverse to forward time and vice versa.
A normal/linear car is in reverse to inverted life while inverted car moves in reverse to normal/linear life.
So, an inverted person cannot drive a linear/un-inverted car in forward gears, except you would drive in reverse gear. If you're inverted and you want to drive a car that flows with your direction, the only way out is to invert the car too.
Well, like I told you earlier, I do understand this movie beyond the actors or screen writer. I can do this all day.
I can take Nolan himself into the deep waters of TENET until he gets lost.
|Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by ortega004: 12:31am On Jan 14|
The grandfather paradox is one of many debates when it comes to time manipulation.. You'd also notice than when the protagonist asks him that "this reversing the flow of time, doesn't us being here means it never happens, that we stop them".. Then Neil says "optimistically that's right. But pessimitically in a parallel worlds theory you can't know the relationship between consciousness and multiple realities"...
What this parallel worlds theory means is that in essence, the future could succeed and create like an alternate reality (parallel universe)..
The general point here is that.. They believe killing grandpa is more likely to result in a parallel world with no consequence rather than failing even if they try.. And they literally have to believe that because their world is dying and they ha e no other option.
|Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by ortega004: 12:46am On Jan 14|
I'm only explaining the physics of it to you.. A positron and an electron cannot coexist.. That's pretty much a constant in physics, regardless of the tenet movie..
You cannot conclusively say the result supercedes the event in this case because you haven't witnessed the event (collision).. For all we know, if it eventually does happen, only the positron gets annihilated (which you have also acknowledged as a possibilty yourself) Because according to even the movie's premise when the two directions of time gets intertwined the electrons dominate because the environment flows in their direction.. ".. Bottom line is, wheeler simply said" don't come into contact with your particles, it would mean annihilation".
|Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by ortega004: 1:09am On Jan 14|
Sigh.. Being inverted doesn't mean you cannot interact with uninverted objects/people.. You'd operate it normally from your own perspective (even though handling it might feel weird because of wind resistance) the only difference is from the linear object or other people's perspectives, they'll just feel the effect before the cause.. Same way an inverted person would feel the effects done on them by an uninverted force before the impact actually happens....
If an inverted person drives a linear car from A to B.. They'll drive it normally with poor handling but any linear person observing from point B would be seeing a car reversing from point B to A instead.. Effect before cause. You don't have to invert the car!
|Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by ortega004: 1:16am On Jan 14|
Finally.. You have to understand that time manipulation, inversion, parallel universes etc are all fictional.. So Nolan gets to create the rules of his own world.. The important thing is he creates plausible scientific explanations for all of his choices...
So they aren't exactly flaws or shortcomings like you claimed.. They're just not the explanation you personally may have wanted.
Great movie nonetheless �
|Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by light099(m): 8:16am On Jan 14|
"Washington: But can we change things if we do it differently?
Neil: What's happened, happened."
There might be parallel universes where multiple consciousness exist, but only one reality exists in all the universes.
In those parallel universes, we're only getting the consciousness of that singular reality differently.
Yesterday was a single reality but was experienced with different consciousness depending on time zones. Some experienced their yesterday earlier than others, but it's still the same yesterday.
Assuming your team played UCL some hours ago but somehow you weren't able to know the result yet. Fortunately your team won. Your fellow team fans who watched the matched are in the consequent feeling of the match, while you're still in the suspense of the match though it already happened. Same reality, different consciousness.
In grandfather paradox, if X goes back in time to kill his grandfather, what he'd discover is that he was only able to kill him after his GP gave birth to his father. X already had a future in the past he wasn't conscious about all the while, he now goes back in time to experience that reality, he's not changing reality nor creating a parallel reality.
What's happened's happened, future Neil knows you can't change a reality that had happened, only parallel consciousness of the reality exists. Those from the future know this well, but that isn't "an excuse not to do nothing" like Neil said, so they made the attempt.
But they knew so well they would still get the same result.
|Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by light099(m): 8:44am On Jan 14|
For all we know, if it eventually does happen, only the positron gets annihilated (which you have also acknowledged as a possibilty yourself) Because according to even the movie's premise when the two directions of time gets intertwined the electrons dominate because the environment flows in their direction.. "Nah!
In standard theory, both positrons and electrons annihilate, that's self-annihilation.
In the movie it was never said a version of the person in contact survives, none survives, that's self annihilation.
I only said that to offer them a way out. Not like the movie itself made any note of such.
A matter has different properties that can be inverted. So inversion doesn't absolutely mean you're creating an anitmatter.
If you invert water into another state. If water or ice or vapour collide, there won't be annihilation.
Then opposite electric charges 'colliding' is different from bodies 'contacting/rubbing'.
Then a macroscopic entity like a full human being is different from electrons and positrons.
"Unlike charges attracts." Standard physics. It never said, unlike charges annihilate.
So, don't take this theory of self-annihilation too far. It might happen, but there are specific conditions for such.
Then remember you're only inverting the entropy, not changing them into electrons or positrons.
But then, let me give you a benefit of being right. So I assume what Wheeler said is true.
Even with that, if particles of your body contact, only those particles in contact would annihilate, it never meant all the body would. If a finger touches a part of inverted version, it doesn't mean the rest 90% of the body not in contact would annihilate. If the hand of a person explodes, does that mean the whole body explodes or annihilates? Obviously not.
|Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by light099(m): 9:53am On Jan 14|
ortega004:Yea, exactly. You're somehow right with this but what makes this wrong from the context of the movie is, since some rules are already at play in the movie, not completely conforming with such rules in all instances is a flop. Take for example, when people invert, they walk backwards, isn't it? But if you start walking backwards, does that mean you're going back in time. Obviously not. You have to go into the turnstile first, that's the way. It's not just by deciding to start walking backwards.
Interacting with un-inverted object is not the same as inversion itself. Interacting with un-inverted car is different from driving a car back in time, at that level both you and the car are going back in time. The car too is going back in time.
So you both must be inverted to sync properly.
The moment the movie started talking about inverted objects, bullets, special oxygen tank, the loophole for criticism is already created. Assuming only humans can be inverted, it would have been the safest side.
Although not everything can be inverted but since the movie cast the inversion concept on the main 'props/objects' used in the movie, the car is also an important 'prop/object' in the spotlight, it shouldn't be an exception.
Fact is, there are different things in the movie that if we really want to go strict would cause a lot of debates that would invalidate the movie itself, we just have to overlook many things.
The main thing is, the movie is a masterpiece. Even though there are lose ends, the crew tried their best. This kind of movie cannot but have flops, nonetheless it remains a masterpiece to the conventional movies.
|Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by ortega004: 10:11am On Jan 14|
You're basing this assumption on a "block universe THEORY"... A parallel universe is "self contained".
It is NOLAN'S world.. He gets to make his own rules.. Neil said it doesn't mean it's written in stone.. That's his own understanding of inversion as a PHYSICIST in this universe.. But most of it is theoretical.. That's why at the end of the day he tells the protagonist it's a paradox as long as those in the future believe they can change things, that's what matters to them... A paradox can both be true and untrue at the same time..
In this case, true is whatever Nolan wants it to be...
Same was in maybe Avengers endgame Loki survives by lifting the cube and disappearing thereby creating an alternate reality for himself.. It's the MCU's world.. They get to create their own fantasies of how time manipulation works.. Or Thanos time travels and dies in 2019..
Bottom line is, all of time travel and inversion is fictional.. You can manipulate it as much as you want to suit your own narrative with whatever scientific theories you want.. There's nothing g proven in real life so anything goes.
|Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by ortega004: 10:18am On Jan 14|
That's the entire point.. The movie doesn't say explicitly.. Wheeler is only offering up her own or the Tenet organization's understanding of particle collision... Point is we never get to see it happen in Canon cos they always wear protective suits.. For all they know that annihilation itself might lead to an alternate reality..
Only one side getting destroyed is just one of many possibilities.. I only said that as an example cos it was closer to your reply.. Not like I'm saying that's what would happen definitively..
Nolan's world, Nolan's rules...
|Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by Cholls(m): 10:18am On Jan 14|
My brother the movie is way ahead of is time. Only the blessed can understand the plot.
|Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by ortega004: 10:27am On Jan 14|
You're focusing too much on time.. Think of it in terms of perspectives..
E.G.. In the car chase Sator was inverted but Kat wasn't.. He didn't need to invert Kat to interact with her.. She just gets to experience his interactions in the reverse order.. When he's pushing her out of the warehouse and towards the Benz, she and the rest of the linear world experiences it as him pulling her out of the Benz and into the warehouse .. But it doesn't change the fact that Sator is pushing from his perspective.
Same with a car, you'll drive but the car and the world would see a car reversing.. But you're just driving normally from your POV.
|Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by ortega004: 10:30am On Jan 14|
PS.. I'm not even saying you're wrong.. Which is why my initial post said its the movie's own interpretation of things you don't really get..
Of course a whole lot doesn't sit right with me logically either.. But it's Nolan's world and rules at the end of the day..
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