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Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by light099(m): 11:23am On Jan 14
ortega004:


You're basing this assumption on a "block universe THEORY"... A parallel universe is "self contained".
It is NOLAN'S world.. He gets to make his own rules.. Neil said it doesn't mean it's written in stone.. That's his own understanding of inversion as a PHYSICIST in this universe.. But most of it is theoretical.. That's why at the end of the day he tells the protagonist it's a paradox as long as those in the future believe they can change things, that's what matters to them... A paradox can both be true and untrue at the same time..
In this case, true is whatever Nolan wants it to be...
Same was in maybe Avengers endgame Loki survives by lifting the cube and disappearing thereby creating an alternate reality for himself.. It's the MCU's world.. They get to create their own fantasies of how time manipulation works.. Or Thanos time travels and dies in 2019..
Bottom line is, all of time travel and inversion is fictional.. You can manipulate it as much as you want to suit your own narrative with whatever scientific theories you want.. There's nothing g proven in real life so anything goes.

A parallel universe might be "self contained" but a parallel universe is not a "closed system", if it were, it simply means such a possibility of going back to your past doesn't exist in the first place. The fact that we assume such a there's a possibility to go back to alter the past, means the past too can alter the future, they work together. Parallel universes are just parallel states of consciousness.
All parallel universes are simultaneous equations syncing to achieve a common reality. Once different realities exist, that's an entirely different case, perhaps a universe with clones or body doubles. Your past or future are not your clones, they're just you in different consciousness on the timeline.
I never watched all time travel movies, nor all the time travel school of thoughts, but one thing I know is, they always say the same thing in different ways. TENET isn't an exception to this.
In TENET's concept, only one reality exists even though different state of consciousness exist.
Depending on the school of thoughts, the 'universe' or 'consciousness' may differ or be the same, those are not constant, but one thing is always constant, that is the reality. It's the same no matter the concept or school of thoughts.
Fictions or not, there's only one reality. TENET movie never did otherwise. "What's happened's happened."
Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by light099(m): 11:37am On Jan 14
ortega004:

That's the entire point.. The movie doesn't say explicitly.. Wheeler is only offering up her own or the Tenet organization's understanding of particle collision... Point is we never get to see it happen in Canon cos they always wear protective suits.. For all they know that annihilation itself might lead to an alternate reality..
Only one side getting destroyed is just one of many possibilities.. I only said that as an example cos it was closer to your reply.. Not like I'm saying that's what would happen definitively..
Nolan's world, Nolan's rules...

Nah!
The movie clearly said annihilation, based on annihilation theory, both versions die. If one version survives, we would have been told.
If the movie was trying to be inexplicit, it shouldn't have mentioned annihilation.
Like you rightly said, body contact might even lead to an alternate reality, I also thought the same. The possibilities are many while annihilation is the least on the list, of all those possibilities.
Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by ortega004: 12:12pm On Jan 14
light099:


Nah!
The movie clearly said annihilation, based on annihilation theory, both versions die. If one version survives, we would have been told.
If the movie was trying to be inexplicit, it shouldn't have mentioned annihilation.
Like you rightly said, body contact might even lead to an alternate reality, I also thought the same. The possibilities are many while annihilation is the least on the list, of all those possibilities.

The movie doesn't state it as canon cos it never actually happens.. Agent wheeler states it.. They are two different things.. She's talking based on her understanding or what she's been told, not necessarily from experience.. Don't forget even the very organization she works for suppresses information as much as possible..
Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by ortega004: 12:17pm On Jan 14
light099:



I never watched all time travel movies, nor all the time travel school of thoughts, but one thing I know is, they always say the same thing in different ways. TENET isn't an exception to this.
In TENET's concept, only one reality exists even though different state of consciousness exist.
Depending on the school of thoughts, the 'universe' or 'consciousness' may differ or be the same, those are not constant, but one thing is always constant, that is the reality. It's the same no matter the concept or school of thoughts.
Fictions or not, there's only one reality. TENET movie never did otherwise. "What's happened's happened."

You haven't watched all and you're confident they all say the same thing?? I'm even giving you actual examples.
The MCU (avengers universe) doesn't say the same thing. Alternate realities have different events and outcomes.
Flash point and DC comics also have alternate universes with different events and outcomes.
There's an old TV series "Fringe".. Alternate realities/universes have different events and outcomes.


It's their universe.. They can do whatever they want!
Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by light099(m): 12:20pm On Jan 14
ortega004:


You're focusing too much on time.. Think of it in terms of perspectives..
E.G.. In the car chase Sator was inverted but Kat wasn't.. He didn't need to invert Kat to interact with her.. She just gets to experience his interactions in the reverse order.. When he's pushing her out of the warehouse and towards the Benz, she and the rest of the linear world experiences it as him pulling her out of the Benz and into the warehouse .. But it doesn't change the fact that Sator is pushing from his perspective.
Same with a car, you'll drive but the car and the world would see a car reversing.. But you're just driving normally from your POV.

"Think of it in terms of perspectives.." Cool, this statement shows you know what you're talking about here.
But if you pay attention to my previous posts, I'm thinking in terms of both the 'sight perspective' and the 'timeline perspective.'
A car moving relative to linear time observer is doing two things - it appears to be reversing backwards, but it's also moving back in time.
Since you're inverted, the world isn't, the linear motion produced by the un-inverted car is negative on your body, same way fire turns to ice on your inverted body. Your body and the car don't sync. It's the car producing the motion and a passenger uses the motion of a moving car. Except your drive in reverse gear to balance the effect or invert the car.
Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by light099(m): 12:31pm On Jan 14
ortega004:

The movie doesn't state it as canon cos it never actually happens.. Agent wheeler states it.. They are two different things.. She's talking based on her understanding or what she's been told, not necessarily from experience.. Don't forget even the very organization she works for suppresses information as much as possible..

You can put the blame on Wheeler or whoever passed such information to them, they even already had inversion suits to prevent body contact.

Seems it doesn't really matter though, because the contention is that such annihilation theory is a flop. It's not really about who invented the theory or if it was generally believed in by everyone the movie or not.
Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by ortega004: 12:31pm On Jan 14
light099:


"Think of it in terms of perspectives.." Cool, this statement shows you know what you're talking about here.
But if you pay attention to my previous posts, I'm thinking in terms of both the 'sight perspective' and the 'timeline perspective.'
A car moving relative to linear time observer is doing two things - it appears to be reversing backwards, but it's also moving back in time.
Since you're inverted, the world isn't, the linear motion produced by the un-inverted car is negative on your body, same way fire turns to ice on your inverted body. Your body and the car don't sync. It's the car producing the motion and a passenger uses the motion of a moving car. Except your drive in reverse gear to balance the effect or invert the car.

The car isn't moving backwards in time.. It's moving forward.. The only difference is that it's experience would start from the end of yours to the beginning of yours..
Eg. If you're inverted and you pick up a car at 3pm from point A and drive it to point B and leave it by 2pm..
The car would experience it as being picked up at 2pm from point B and driven in reverse to point A and being left at 3pm..
Literally the same event but different perspectives from the car and the inverted driver.
Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by light099(m): 12:33pm On Jan 14
ortega004:


You haven't watched all and you're confident they all say the same thing?? I'm even giving you actual examples.
The MCU (avengers universe) doesn't say the same thing. Alternate realities have different events and outcomes.
Flash point and DC comics also have alternate universes with different events and outcomes.
There's an old TV series "Fringe".. Alternate realities/universes have different events and outcomes.
It's their universe.. They can do whatever they want!

If MCU thinks otherwise, TENET doesn't and fortunately, this is all about TENET.
Perhaps if I watch MCU, I can debate in that line.
Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by ortega004: 12:38pm On Jan 14
light099:


You can put the blame on Wheeler or whoever passed such information to them, they even already had inversion suits to prevent body contact.

Seems it doesn't really matter though, because the contention is that such annihilation theory is a flop. It's not really about who invented the theory or if it was generally believed in by everyone the movie or not.

Sigh.. Not blaming anyone.. I've been saying it all along.. Annihilation theory is just physics.. They're not necessarily talking from experience.. They know what physics states would happen.. So they take the necessary precautions to even avoid finding out by wearing protective suits and putting up barriers in the turnstile room...
Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by ortega004: 12:44pm On Jan 14
light099:


If MCU thinks otherwise, TENET doesn't and fortunately, this is all about TENET.
Perhaps if I watch MCU, I can debate in that line.

That's what I keep trying to tell you.. Even the TENET people do not know. Many things remain unknowable.... This dialogue in the screenshot below further cements that.. Neil optimistically hopes that being here means they have succeeded.. But he also makes room for the possibility of multiple realities where if they fail to act it leads to another reality different from theirs.

Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by light099(m): 12:47pm On Jan 14
ortega004:


The car isn't moving backwards in time.. It's moving forward.. The only difference is that it's experience would start from the end of yours to the beginning of yours..
Eg. If you're inverted and you pick up a car at 3pm from point A and drive it to point B and leave it by 2pm..
The car would experience it as being picked up at 2pm from point B and driven in reverse to point A and being left at 3pm..
Literally the same event but different perspectives from the car and the inverted driver.

You're only focusing on the sight perspective.
If at 2pm, you walk backwards from A to B for 1 hour. Does it mean you're now back in 1pm? No, you're now in 3pm forward time. But if another person goes into the turnstile before doing so, the result is different.
The car is not just reversing in sight perspective, it must also be moving back in 'timeline perspective' and since the car is your motion back in time, it must be inverted too. If not, you're still on the same forward/linear timeline.
Time/motion are important in time travel and the car is the object producing your motion back in time. At that moment you're in the car, the car is in charge of your movement back in time.
Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by ortega004: 12:58pm On Jan 14
light099:


You're only focusing on the sight perspective.
If at 2pm, you walk backwards from A to B for 1 hour. Does it mean you're now back in 1pm? No, you're now in 3pm forward time. But if another person goes into the turnstile before doing so, the result is different.
The car is not just reversing in sight perspective, it must also be moving back in 'timeline perspective' and since the car is your motion back in time, it must be inverted too. If not, you're still on the same forward/linear timeline.
Time/motion are important in time travel and the car is the object producing your motion back in time. At that moment you're in the car, the car is in charge of your movement back in time.

You're still not getting it.. You are inverted and the car is not! Your entropy is reversed so you alone keep moving backwards... Every other thing moves forward.. Whatever you interact with would simply experience effect before cause...
So from the car's perspective you're Undriving (not a real word, lol) it from 2pm to 3pm...

The Kat-Sator car chase scene is where you can find proper understanding.. Sator is inverted but Kat isn't inverted.. So while Sator experiences unshooting Kat and taking her through the car chase then leaving her back on the floor of the warehouse where he initially kicked her.. She would experience being picked up from the floor, taken through the chase and then being shot and left for dead. She would only just be perceiving his movements as weird... Sator's movement continues backwards after leaving her on the floor.. Her own movement continues forward after being shot.. I don't know how else to explain to you
Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by light099(m): 1:06pm On Jan 14
ortega004:


Sigh.. Not blaming anyone.. I've been saying it all along.. Annihilation theory is just physics.. They're not necessarily talking from experience.. They know what physics states would happen.. So they take the necessary precautions to even avoid finding out by wearing protective suits and putting up barriers in the turnstile room...

They might have accepted such theory as a myth or precaution, that's not my point.. My point is that's there isn't going to be annihilation mentioned in the movie, so whoever said that was wrong.
Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by light099(m): 1:23pm On Jan 14
ortega004:

That's what I keep trying to tell you.. Even the TENET people do not know. Many things remain unknowable.... This dialogue in the screenshot below further cements that.. Neil optimistically hopes that being here means they have succeeded.. But he also makes room for the possibility of multiple realities where if they fail to act it leads to another reality different from theirs.

No, TENET people do know, Neil said it many times "What's happened's happened", everything in the movie proved this golden line. All the inversion scenes did not alter anything. They only went back in time to fulfill what had happened in forward scenes, nothing changed.
That screenshot somehow contradicted the golden line, but it's necessary to backup the plot of the movie. If the director didn't introduce a scene like that, the whole movie would have been a big flop. That was put in place to justify the plot.
Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by ortega004: 1:35pm On Jan 14
light099:


No, TENET people do know, Neil said it many times "What's happened's happened", everything in the movie proved this golden line. All the inversion scenes did not alter anything. They only went back in time to fulfill what had happened in forward scenes, nothing changed.
That screenshot somehow contradicted the golden line, but it's necessary to backup the plot of the movie. If the director didn't introduce a scene like that, the whole movie would have been a big flop. That was put in place to justify the plot.

They know that being alive means that they succeed.. But that faint possibility of an alternate reality is why they must always go through the motions regardless... Neil still maintained this at the end of the movie when he's inverting despite knowing that he dies down there.. He told the protagonist "we just saved the world, can't leave anything to chance"..
As for nothing being altered.. They're literally operating a giant pincer movement that's why they always succeed because they know what they hope to achieve and how to achieve it that's why nothing changes..
Nevertheless the possibility of an alternate reality still exists.. Now ask yourself.. If you were in the future in a dying world with nowhere else to go but backwards, won't you pin your hopes on that faint possibility of success??
Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by light099(m): 1:39pm On Jan 14
ortega004:


You're still not getting it.. You are inverted and the car is not! Your entropy is reversed so you alone keep moving backwards... Every other thing moves forward.. Whatever you interact with would simply experience effect before cause...
So from the car's perspective you're Undriving (not a real word, lol) it from 2pm to 3pm...

The Kat-Sator car chase scene is where you can find proper understanding.. Sator is inverted but Kat isn't inverted.. So while Sator experiences unshooting Kat and taking her through the car chase then leaving her back on the floor of the warehouse where he initially kicked her.. She would experience being picked up from the floor, taken through the chase and then being shot and left for dead. She would only just be perceiving his movements as weird... Sator's movement continues backwards after leaving her on the floor.. Her own movement continues forward after being shot.. I don't know how else to explain to you

This car part is tricky, that's why I said the other time that you're somehow right, except that the movie makes it hard for your point to be right.
If I get a free time, I'll try to give a comprehensive explanation about it.
Note that due to the nature of the movie, the car inversion or not is right if you say it shouldn't be inverted or i say it should be. Any of the two opinions are right based on the movie. Except if we consider different grounds from the movie, it is still more valid to agree the car should be inverted than otherwise.
Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by light099(m): 2:15pm On Jan 14
ortega004:

They know that being alive means that they succeed.. But that faint possibility of an alternate reality is why they must always go through the motions regardless... Neil still maintained this at the end of the movie when he's inverting despite knowing that he dies down there.. He told the protagonist "we just saved the world, can't leave anything to chance"..
As for nothing being altered.. They're literally operating a giant pincer movement that's why they always succeed because they know what they hope to achieve and how to achieve it that's why nothing changes..
Nevertheless the possibility of an alternate reality still exists.. Now ask yourself.. If you were in the future in a dying world with nowhere else to go but backwards, won't you pin your hopes on that faint possibility of success??
Being alive is just one of the results of an event, so being alive doesn't mean they succeed. X gets a bucket load of 'F's. He's alive doesn't mean he'd succeed if he goes back in time to rewrite the exam. He would get the same bucket load of 'F's and still be alive. Nothing changed. It all depends on the result desired, not just being alive.
That faint possibility doesn't exist, nothing changes, 'future Neil' and posterity already know this, even 'present Washington' already embraced this sad truth too.

Nevertheless the possibility of an alternate reality still exists.. Now ask yourself.. If you were in the future in a dying world with nowhere else to go but backwards, won't you pin your hopes on that faint possibility of success??
Good thought but it still depends.
If I already know I can't change nothing, then I can take my future to the past to live it there, when the climate was still favorable.

But if I have the mind of going there to fight or change things when I already know I can't change nothing, then that's like appealing the case of an accused who's already been executed by hanging, even if the case is won, that can't undo the execution.
Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by ortega004: 2:29pm On Jan 14
light099:

Being alive is just one of the results of an event, so being alive doesn't mean they succeed. X gets a bucket load of 'F's. He's alive doesn't mean he'd succeed if he goes back in time to rewrite the exam. He would get the same bucket load of 'F's and still be alive. Nothing changed. It all depends on the result desired, not just being alive.
That faint possibility doesn't exist, nothing changes, 'future Neil' and posterity already know this, even 'present Washington' already embraced this sad truth too.



What are you going on about exams and F's for?? They believe if the future uses the algorithm to invert the world that would mean the end for them and they would all die instantly.. So being alive means that never happens and the future doesn't or hasn't succeeded in using the algorithm.. Isn't the direct opposite of being dead, being alive?? Abi how else can they succeed the future's attempt to destroy them?

If you think the possibility doesn't exist despite all that's in the movie then that's your own understanding.. This conversation would just go back and forth in vain.. Cheers �
Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by light099(m): 2:57pm On Jan 14
ortega004:

What are you going on about exams and F's for?? They believe if the future uses the algorithm to invert the world that would mean the end for them and they would all die instantly.. So being alive means that never happens and the future doesn't or hasn't succeeded in using the algorithm.. Isn't the direct opposite of being dead, being alive?? Abi how else can they succeed the future's attempt to destroy them?
If you think the possibility doesn't exist despite all that's in the movie then that's your own understanding.. This conversation would just go back and forth in vain.. Cheers �

Alright, I misinterpreted 'being alive means they succeed" was referring to the present. Now I get you.
From the beginning the answer to this is quite simple. Chance is different from Certainty.

If we in a future world finally get's to a wall, but we can all go back to our past except that, we can't change anything. What would I do?
I'll go back to my remarkable and memorable past events and relive them.

But if I decide to go back to initiate a battle to change things I know can't change, do we call that taking a good shot at chance or making a huge waste of time?
Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by ortega004: 3:56pm On Jan 14
light099:


Alright, I misinterpreted 'being alive means they succeed" was referring to the present. Now I get you.
From the beginning the answer to this is quite simple. Chance is different from Certainty.

If we in a future world finally get's to a wall, but we can all go back to our past except that, we can't change anything. What would I do?
I'll go back to my remarkable and memorable past events and relive them.

But if I decide to go back to initiate a battle to change things I know can't change, do we call that taking a good shot at chance or making a huge waste of time?


First off.. Tenet isn't even time travel.. It's inversion.. When you invert yourself. You're not going to your past, that's literally your new future.. The only thing is you're living it an a sort of closed loop (a block universe) where people have already existed/lived, so your inverted future would have been experienced by some people already in the same uninverted world..
Inverting the entropy of the world is a different ball game entirely with lots of unknowns.. The scientist who built the algorithm believes if they invert the entropy of the world, the past would be destroyed and also they in the future would be destroyed along with them which is why she inverts the algorithm and hides it to continue traveling to the past.. Keyword is "believes".. Even she doesn't know this for sure.. Some others in the future don't share that sentiment and they believe using the algorithm is their only shot at survival... So all of it is still relatively unknown..

Nothing is certain or set in stone.. That point is pretty much made clear through the movie.
Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by ortega004: 4:47pm On Jan 14
Here's question though.. We see the BMW's side mirror self-repair after it collides with Sator's Audi in the talin car chase, and we also see the proving window in the Oslo freeport with bullet holes self repair after the inverted protagonist unshoots the glass at the scene where the protagonist fights himself..
The question is how did the side mirror get broken or how did the proving window get the bullet hole initially.. And how long were they both there for.. Does it date back to the manufacturing date of both the window and the side mirror?? They were both manufactured with the defects and ignored by the manufactures and installers.. Lol
Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by light099(m): 7:13am
ortega004:

First off.. Tenet isn't even time travel..
Very cool. I think this your post just made the whole explanation easier for me. You're still mixing things up, that is why it's been taking too long.
To start with, what's time travel? Travel through time into the past or future. As simple as that.
There might be additions or subtractions, you might add some other effects to your own time travel, but as long as you go into the past or future, it's time travel. Simple.

It's inversion.. When you invert yourself. You're not going to your past, that's literally your new future.. The only thing is you're living it an a sort of closed loop (a block universe) where people have already existed/lived, so your inverted future would have been experienced by some people already in the same uninverted world..
With a unique timeT concept like inversion, it's now possible to live your future in the past if you wanted. Sounds cool.
Except that each timeline in TENET's universe is a 'final summation' of all what happened, happening or yet to happen in that timeline. You referred to it as 'closed loop'. Cool.
This 'closed looping' is what made TENET universe certain/definitive or calculable and not uncertain like you've been making it all look like. Each timeline presents a 'final result'.
More interestingly, you can even simulate your moves. It's 5 pm, you're to travel back in time to 12 pm noon and you have 10 hours for this mission. How do you do this? You simply continue forward 5 hours more in time till 10 pm and you go into the turnstile at that exact time, that gives you a 10 hours journey back in time to 12 pm noon. It's all simple stuff, not as difficult or uncertain as you're making it look like.

Inverting the entropy of the world is a different ball game entirely with lots of unknowns.. The scientist who built the algorithm believes if they invert the entropy of the world, the past would be destroyed and also they in the future would be destroyed along with them which is why she inverts the algorithm and hides it to continue traveling to the past..
Nope! Inverting the entropy of the world isn't so different. You've been inverting just bullets and yourselves but now you want to invert the whole world i.e 'everything'. The objects you'll be inverting just became a whole lot, way larger, but fortunately it still didn't change nothing, it's a 'closed loop' universe, so what we focus on is the 'final result' each timeline presents.
An antagonist with an evil time travel tech went back to my past to destroy me and the universe by inverting the whole world in my past. Luckily for me, my universe is a 'closed loop' universe. Now that I'm alive at the present and the environment or world around me is also soundly alive. What does it mean? It simply means we all survived because this present moment presents an 'end result'. We might not know the 'process' of how it all happened but that's not important. What's more important is that we got what finally resulted. As for the 'process', perhaps the antagonist changed his mind, or he died in the course of the whole thing or he was intercepted, whatever way it happened. We already got the 'end result' on the present timeline.

Keyword is "believes".. Even she doesn't know this for sure.. Some others in the future don't share that sentiment and they believe using the algorithm is their only shot at survival... So all of it is still relatively unknown..
Nothing is certain or set in stone.. That point is pretty much made clear through the movie.
Nope! You keep putting words in mouth of TENET characters. You make the whole movie look so uncertain.
TENET is scientific and logical. It's 100% predictable and calculable and the movie strongly portrayed this certainty.
If there were slight mood of uncertainty portrayed in the movie, it was only to justify the plot like I said earlier.
If I know exactly how TENET universe and tech works, you mean the smart future dwellers who invented these whole tech and processes no longer know how things operate? Or I know their inventions more than they do? Certainly not.
They do understand their tech, they understand their pincer movements, they definitely even know more not portrayed in the movie.

"What's happened's happened." You're not going back to the past to change the present or future, you're only inverting into the past to relive or be conscious of a portion of your life some uninverted people in the past have already witnessed/experienced which you're yet to. So you're going into the past to fulfill what had already happened.
You going back into the past to run the 'process' of an event which already has a 'end result' on a timeline.
It's a 'closed loop' universe where each timeline presents a 'final result' or 'end result'.
Re: HAVE YOU SEEN TENET? The Brain Teaser finally broken down into details. by Kabir5643(m): 12:19pm
Jeez, I'm having a headache

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