All off you creationists out there that mock Evolutionary Theory, usually out of ignorance, continuously assert that creationism offers a much better case for our biological diversity than Evolutionary Theory.

Here's your chance: offer some credible evidence for your case and explain why it is better than Evolutionary Theory in explaining biological diversity.

"The difference between evolution and Creationism is that evolution is real and Creationism is not real. Creationism is based on the Bible that says that God created the world in 6 days about 10,000 years ago. Clearly the world was not created in 6 days about 10,000 years ago so therefore the Bible is just plain wrong. If the world were merely 10,000 years old then how do you explain the dinosaurs that are millions of years old? We've discovered life fossils that date back billions of years. Even the skeletons of modern humans date back before the time of Adam and Eve.

If we were to believe the Bible, then we would have to believe the Earth was created before the stars, which is the wrong order. If the stars were created 10,000 years ago, we wouldn't be able to see starts that were more than 10,000 light years away. That's because if a star were further away than 10,000 light years, the light from that star wouldn't have got here yet. Our galaxy alone is about 100,000 light years across. If the Bible were true, we wouldn't be able to see but 1/10th the way across our own galaxy. We surely wouldn't be able to see other galaxies or galactic clusters or know that the universe is expanding.

Our modern technology has proved the Bible wrong. That means that if there is a God, he didn't write the Bible and the Bible is not his word. If the Bible were the word of God and the Bible is wrong, then God is wrong. And if God can't be wrong, then the Bible, which is wrong, can't be the word of God.

Men who lived thousands of years ago wrote the Bible. The authors had limited knowledge of the nature of the universe and wrote the Bible based on what they believed at the time. They didn't know the Earth was round and that it orbited the Sun, which is a star among billions of stars in the galaxy which is but one galaxy in billions of galaxies that have existed for billions of years. To them, the world was flat. There was up and there was down and God lived in the sky. They didn't know the world was round and there was no such thing as "up". They didn't know that the sky was a thin layer of gas that surrounds the surface of this planet. We have been to the sky and we have been above the sky and God isn't living there.

As to evolution, evolution is science. We have the bones of creatures living millions of years ago that are the links between different forms of life. The bone exist that link us humans we our common ancestors that we share with other primates. In fact we have unearthed many civilizations that go back further than 10,000 years and predate Adam and Eve. And these discoveries actually exist and can be measured. We know them to be real.

Evolution is happening right now. Farmers have been using evolution for thousands of years to bread new and better farm animals and crops. The corn we eat today is very different than the corn that was raised by the ancient Egyptians. Today's cattle are very different from cows a few hundred years ago. The difference is that farmers controlled the breading to select the best individuals and to cause them to reproduce instead of the inferior ones. We have taken control of evolution and used it to out benefit.

Do we know everything about evolution? No, we don't. But we know a great deal, and we're learning more every day. As we pursue science and research we are expanding our knowledge of the reality of the universe and the world around us. This is real knowledge about the way that the world actually is. Knowledge that has come from scientific discovery rather than the mythology of past and primitive civilizations.

People don't like the idea of evolution because of our fear of death and that we like to think of ourselves as something special. The idea that we "came from monkeys" is as disgusting as sex. If God made man in his image and we are the only life in the universe and we are dominate over all other things and we're going to live forever, that would be a great reality for us. Unfortunately, that's not the way it is.

On the other hand, this planet is but a speck of dust in the universe. We are a small planet rotating around a star that is one of billions of stars in a galaxy that is one of billions of galaxies in a universe that existed for billions of years. The universe is likely teaming with life, some of which is so evolved that they would never visit here because we are too primitive to even be considered interesting, unless we were considered tasty food. We exist as a result of random chance and the only reason we exist is because our parents and their parents before them gave into overwhelming sexual instincts, like the animals have, and we were formed as a chance DNA combination. We exist for no other reason.

Now, which one would you rather believe? It's simple. We would all rather believe that we are special and that God has a special purpose for us and that we are important. But which one is real? The one we would rather believe? Or do we believe what is supported by scientific fact. Sometimes what we want and the way things are not the same. It takes courage to believe in what's real. Those who are afraid of what's real are attached to maintaining the illusion of a creation rather than facing the facts. The reason I'm here is because my father didn't have it together enough to use a condom properly. It's that simple.

Christianity itself has evolved over the centuries. In order to survive it has had to change an adapt. Many religions and many branches of Christianity have become extinct over the centuries. In order to survive, Christianity has had to merge with the cultures of other religions. For example, Christmas is not a Christian holiday. Christmas was originally Yule and people cut down and decorated trees long before Christ was born. Easter had nothing to do with Christ rising from the dead. Easter was a pagan fertility ritual where pagans prayed to the Gods for reproduction and food. Hence, the rabbits and the eggs.

The religions of the world are threatened by modern science. We humans have evolved to the point where we know a lot more than we ever did and we now know that a lot of what we believed for centuries is just plain wrong. However, we humans are still herd animals and it is our instinctive nature to continue to believe what the tribe believes rather than what's logical. Our minds have not yet evolved to the point where logic and reason dominates over tribal patterns. (Except for me of course. That's why I'm writing this.) But because of technology, and especially computers, the day is coming where the rest of humanity can move up to my level and beyond. (Sorry, it's not ego, it's my warped sense of humor. In your heart you know I'm right though.)

As religion evolves people will turn from mythology to reality. As humans become smarter, people will want to understand the real world the way it really is. The 21st century will be the century of the global mind and the Church of Reality will evolve into the dominate religion on the planet. And I will go down in history as the Dalai Lama of nerds"

Please note that the above texts are excepts from the website http://www.churchofreality.org and I have used it with permission from the authors. They represent my entire belief and stand as to the issue between evolution and Creationism, however, I am willing to listen to divergent views if they make sense.

El-Baron

El-Baron,

It is obvious that you consider evolution more realistic than the Bible because you can't reconcile what you deem as fact, with what you think the Bible says. The Bible is very apt when it says "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge". You lack knowledge of the Bible's teachings, and I believe most Christians are in the dark as you are, and can not therefore prove that most of the assertions you made are actually Bible facts. I'll begin from the very beginning.

The Bible did not teach that the world was created 10,000 years ago. It teaches that Man (Adam's race) was created about 6,000 years ago to be exact. The creation story you read in Genesis is actually a re-creation. Evidence exists from the Bible that there was another civilization on earth that was wiped out before man came into being. God did not create the earth to be without form and void, the earth became without form and void from the activities of the inhabitants of the earth before man came into the picture. Evidence of this can be found in the Books of Genesis, Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Job to name a few. If you are interested, I could get to the nitty gritty and give you Bible chapters and verses to support this fact.

Talking about the Universe, have you read what the Bible says about how the galaxy works especially the sun?. Go read Psalms 19 and find out that the Bible talks about the sun going around in its orbit. Up until few years ago, scientists thought the sun was stationary, the Bible said otherwise thousands of years ago. The so-called scientific knowledge that we now have was predicted by the Bible, but we don't understand what the Bible says fully, and we go ahead condemning it.

I'm of the firm belief that while the study of evolution persists, it will eventually come to the conclusion that there must be a Creator somewhere. I believe that science will eventually catch up with the knowledge that the Bible professes, and the conclusion will be that there is a God after all. The Bible has stated the end, while science is just starting the race towards the end.

In coclusion, I remember what Paul the Apostle said: "He that thinks he knows does not know yet as he ought to know". This is science for you. It may be an embodiment of knowledge, but it does not know all as yet.

TayoD
Can you bring a positive case for creationism, you know, with evidence from several lines of inquiry coming up to a hypothesis or even a theory of creationism.

Hi Nferyn,

You need to understand that life is not all about logic where 1 + 1 =2. There is an element of faith to our existence, and ignoring it is ignoring a vital aspect of what makes us humans. As logical as you would like to believe you are, faith has come into play in your life several times today. Think about it, and you will see how true that statement is.
However, consider what Ecclesiates 3:11 says "He hath made all things good in their time, and hath delivered the world to their consideration, so that man cannot find out the work which God hath made from the beginning to the end." (Douay-Rheims Bible). What makes you think you can fathom the infinite with your finite mind and understanding?
However, God has been so gracious to leave evidences of Himself all around. See Psalms 19:1-4 "1 The heavens shew forth the glory of God, and the firmament declareth the work of his hands. 2 Day to day uttereth speech, and night to night sheweth knowledge. 3 There are no speeches nor languages, where their voices are not heard. 4 Their sound hath gone forth into all the earth: and their words unto the ends of the world.
You need evidence? Let me give it to you in reverse. For instance, imagine someone saying to you that a piece of machinery, let's say a laptop, came into being by evolution. Among other things, I can imagine you thinking that person must be nuts. Why? Because you know for sure that it is not possible. Yet you want to think that this massive universe, that works so perfectly like a single unit is a creation of chance. Believe me, it takes more faith to believe that, than it takes to believe that there is a Creator.
Because you can't see God does not mean He does not exist.
I want to challenge you to prove to me also that there is no God. At least, in my engineering classes, one of the ways we've proved or disprove some equations is to confirm that the results is the opposite or otherwise of the conclusion.

Allright, what you're telling me is that you have [b]no [/b]positive evidence for creationism or a scientific theory of creationism.

Is science everything? I'm convinced by faith and experience that God exists. And science? Well, it believes in cause and effects. The effect is creation, and the cause - evolution or God. Science hasn't proved conclusively either way.

TayoD, you are a very smart man, you are so smart that you tend to avoid the issue at stake and ramble on about inconsequential tid bits. Did you see the title of this thread? It is "Positive case for creationism". I have stated my point of view, you don't like it, counter it with yours. If you don't have any, go do some research and come back. I could give you a few pointers but I don't have the time. let me know when you have something to say.

El-baron