AjaanaOka:


It is quite plausible that the proto-Igbo word for 'mother' had a '-na' ending. This is based on the the few Igboid lects that still use such forms today.

In Ekpeye, mother is ina. In the Ndele dialect of Ikwere it is nna. In Ogba, it is ona/nna. The rest of the Igboid speech forms (that I am aware of) use words that have a '-ne' ending.

My theory is that proto-Igboid word for mother had a terminal 'na', but that the 'a' shifted to 'e' to avoid confusion with the word for father.

It is not mere coincidence that all the Igbo lects that use a -na word for mother have a '-da' or '-di' word for father. In Ekpeye, father is 'ida'; in Ndele, it is 'ada' or 'nda'; in Ogba it is 'didi' (although nna is also used; perhaps reborrowed recently from the hinterland Igbo).

In much of the rest of Igboid, the word for father had evolved to 'nna'; and perhaps to avoid confusion with mother, a concomitant shifting from '-na' to '-ne' occurred with respect to 'mother'.

I don't know how this is relevant to your reply but in Umuoji and Onicha areas we use ineanyi for our mother/nne anyi. It's used interchangeably with nne anyi. Ineanyi/nneanyi

Hellraiser77:
The Op's theory is sound logically and based on available evidence i had arrived at the same conclusion after rigorous evidence based research, However it doesn't cover the entirety of the population that is today known as Igbo, it more precisely explains the long forgotten and ancient history of southern Igboland populations.

My position which is similar to yours and which was arrived at through rigorous and extensive examination is this:-

1- What is today know as Igbo people Moved southwards from an area close to the Niger-benue confluence for whatever reason but most likely to seek out new lands as the continued drying of the Sahara area which used to be a very vast lush green area pushed early Sahara human populations southwards, This was very early maybe up to 8000BC.

2-This early proto-igbo southward movement spanned hundreds of years and was very scattered, most went southwards towards today's northern Igboland Others followed a more south Westerly direction into what is today an area covering parts of modern Osun, ekiti, ondo and ondo states later to be Joined by Edoid peoples and the ethnicities that exist under the yoruba umbrella name today, some of them moved again through the direction The OP presented and finally settled at the southern part of the Igboland.

3-This includes southern igboland populations as well as the Ogba, ekpeye, And the ikwerre that being why I don't totally laugh ikwerre out of court when they say their ancestors came from Edo.(the Onitsha and most Igbos west of the Niger river fall into this category too)

4-Some of this proto-igbo people of modern day south western Nigeria was resident in what is today known as ile-ife they called it "Omoku" before some modern day yoruba ancestors arrived and blended the whole gene pool of the area into what it is today(The principal town of the Ogba people of rivers state is still called "Omoku" today"

To put in simpler terms all Igbos originated from a single source around 8000bc around the area where the Niger and Benue rivers met, But arrived from different directions to what is today modern Igboland this influx was also separated by vast expanses of time


Note----- Any Insecure low esteem yoruba person that enters my mention will be dealt with.....I NO GET FILTER O

You theory is in tandem with E.A Iduwe account.

Iduwe believed the ancestors of Igbos and Ika were one people. And migrated from a northern direction to South.

I believe that While the Igbos in SE entered South through Benue/Kogi/boundary, the Ika moved West of Kogi , through Ondo, Edo and got to where they are now.They picked up many Yoruba words on their journey from Ondo and this was probably the time the Odianis came along for the ride and ended in their present location.

Some proto Igbos didn't stop at Ika, they migrated down to form the Ukwuani/Ndokwa people and as far as Ekpeye and Ogba. This part of proto Igbo migration is the one OP is putting on the screen, when it is may only be a part of a bigger early migrations.

Some of these people would close the River Niger to form Ogbaru in Anambra and as far as Oguta and parts of Ihiala .

Those Proto Igbo who entered Igboland through Benue and formed the Ezza, Izzi , Ngbo and Ikwo cluster. Those who entered through Northern Cross river formed the Ehugbo and related (Oha-Ozara, Edda, Abiriba clustered.
Some of these people picked up non Igbo Cross riverian elements along the way. Yet their Igbo identity as preserved by their language remains strong.


From here onwards things became mashed up.
Those who entered through the Kogi boundary formed the Nri and Nsukka clusters, from them arose Parties who refused to settle there but continued the migration, moving further down south to form groups in Anambra Central and South all the way to Imo and Abia.

Some of those from the above group crossed the River Niger where they met the Ika party who split off at Kogi and got to Ika via Ondo and Edo states.

This party ensured Ika dialect formation stayed close to those of the Igbos across the River Niger.
The Ika themselves had expanded to form the Aniocha and Oshimili clusters where they were joined by the Igbo party that broke off from Nsukka and Eri/Nri groups at the Kogi boundary.
Some Ika groups had even managed to cross the River Niger as well, as seen in Onitsha mili and few pockets of Umuezechima people in Anambra West LGA.

Summary is that the Igbo history is a story of a people who set off for journey, split up at different times and locations, only for their descendants to find each other in the future, reunited and continued the journey. Moving to and fro the area, forming new alliances and towns , making it very hard to keep track of who came from where.

Hellraiser77:
1. Such stories are present in few western Igbo communities including the igbanke people in modern Edo state.

The current Obi of Onitsha proclaimed recently that the aboriginals of Ife were a stock of Igbos saperate from their South east kin, which may finally put to rest the question of Igbos that claim they came from bini but don't know how they got there. https://newsexpressngr.com/news/38932-Igbos-were-the-first-to-settle-in-Ile-Ife-Obi-of-Onitsha

The current ooni of Ife corroborated it recently with stories of Igbo settlements that Oduduwa superimposed his dynasty on, thereby assimilating a vast majority while some groups simply scattered on various directions. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vanguardngr.com/2019/08/ooni-of-ife-and-the-igbo-yoruba-relationship/amp/

The problem with Yoruba history is the sheer amount of folk tales and fabricated bullshlt packaged inside First by Ajayi crowther who first used the name "Yoruba" and later Awolowo to unite all the warring groups that today call themself Yoruba

Some stuff in relation to the discussion.

AjaanaOka!!

For such a long time, I have kept my mouth shut about this very topic, because the Igbo community here on NL already think of me as a heretic, and anything coming from me in opposition to the “hinterland homeland” hypothesis (Hinterland Homeland theory - HH theory for short) would have definitely ruffled feathers. However, now that you’ve been the one to bring it up, my good friend, I can speak freely, and I do have a few things to say on the topic. Hopefully, I can keep this brief. I will certainly try. You and I (and anyone else really) can/will expand on my points from here.

Now, I’m sure anyone who is familiar with my posts here on NL can already deduce that I am likely not a proponent of the HH theory, and that would be correct. To begin with, I have always been suspicious of the HH theory. It never made sense, especially when you take into consideration the oral traditions of various southern and eastern Igbo-speaking communities. I have stated before and will always state this, there is always a correlation between the HH theory and the extent to which theorists seemingly neglect various oral traditions. It seems to be the only way they can maintain the theory that dispersion from “core Igbo” areas birthed the surrounding Igbo-speaking communities. To any sensible person, this should obviously be a red flag. It was a red flag for me, and after eventually digging deeper, I came to outrightly dismiss the HH theory for two main reasons.

1.) Deeper analysis of the traditions used to support the HH theory led me to believe that at the end of the day, this “hinterland homeland” dispersion only satisfactorily explains the Isu/Isuama movements and the cultural and linguistic homogenization in the region, resulting from such large population movements. I think it was simply convenient for the academia to extend this southward push farther into pre-history and assume that it was part of a consistent general southern push from the Niger-Benue confluence.

2.) Language. From a linguistic perspective, the claim that the "central Igbo" lects were the "original Igbo" never made sense. Perhaps it is just me, but there is a sense of homogeneity in the "central Igbo" lects that I don't see in the southern and eastern lects. Perhaps I am not exposed enough to the wealth of linguistic diversity for "central Igbo" lects, so I am willing to back off on this second point in light of more exposure that contradicts my perspective. However, for the time being, I maintain that the southern and eastern regions seem more intensely diverse. It never made sense to me how sharply the nature of the lects shift between "central Igbo" (the supposed homeland) and the southern lects (the colonized regions). It never made sense that a (presumably) homogeneous concentration birthed such intense surrounding variety.

Now, before I get into the Edo-Ondo borderlands postulation, I wanted to mention one thing regarding the works of various linguists such as Williamson and Ohiri-Aniche. Their works suggest that Ekpeye is among the older (if not oldest) surviving modern lect. Now, the stretch of communities from Ogba to Ahiara share very specific linguistic similarities with Ekpeye that are seemingly missing from all other lects (refer to my earlier comment about the sharp linguistic shift between central and southern lects). These specific linguistic features are shared with rather mininal claims of kinship with no concept of "central migration" across this Ogba-Ahiara stretch (suggesting such an ancient dispersion that it's been altogether forgotten).

Now, regarding the Edo-Ondo borderlands postulation. Quite a while ago when we were discussing proto-Igbo reconstructions here on NL (with respect to the Chi concept). I wanted verification on how the Akoko side of things reflected on my speculation of the etymology (or shift in the etymology of Chi) within Igbo-speaking communities. I was unable to acquire the verification I needed, but I suspect it was because I was both looking for a singular Akoko language at the time and not digging deeply enough in the process.

I knew that there was a bit of linguistic diversity within the Akoko area, but up until this point, I did not realize it was as diverse as this to the point that mutually unintelligible brances exist side by side. I am curious about one thing through. It is generally accepted that the proto-Igbo branched off sooner than other branches within YEAI. I would like to understand what your thoughts are on how that relates with your Edo-Ondo borderlands postulation. Is there a possibility that such high linguistic diversity in the general area only effectively explains the Akoko context? In other words, are there any consideration that you might have had that gave you pause when attempting to generalize the linguistic diversity in the Edo-Ondo borderlands to the rest of the YEAI branch? If so, I'd very much like to hear them and hear how you reconciled them.

Now, as far as entry into the Igbo-speaking area, I remember when I learned that Ekpeye is analyzed as being the older (if not oldest) surviving Igboid branch. I knew at the time that a lot of the current orthodox theories would need to be revisited. A central dispersion that "birthed the rest of the region" made little to no sense in light of the fact that there exists a surviving linguistic branch that does not fit into any supposed central heartland migration tradition.

As always, I truly appreciate your posts here on NL and the conversations we have.

IDENNAA:


I don't know how this is relevant to your reply but in Umuoji and Onicha areas we use ineanyi for our mother/nne anyi. It's used interchangeably with nne anyi. Ineanyi/nneanyi

Hmm. 'Ine' is an interesting form to find so far in the hinterland.

ChinenyeN:
AjaanaOka!!

Ahhh! Greetings, nwoke m!
Was starting to think you were on a long break from NL. I didn't think you'd see this and walk by, lol!

1.) Deeper analysis of the traditions used to support the HH theory led me to believe that at the end of the day, this “hinterland homeland” dispersion only satisfactorily explains the Isu/Isuama movements and the cultural and linguistic homogenization in the region, resulting from such large population movements. I think it was simply convenient for the academia to extend this southward push farther into pre-history and assume that it was part of a consistent general southern push from the Niger-Benue confluence.

Totally agree. I think I said this in one of my responses above, to Abagworo.

I knew that there was a bit of linguistic diversity within the Akoko area, but up until this point, I did not realize it was as diverse as this to the point that mutually unintelligible brances exist side by side. I am curious about one thing through. It is generally accepted that the proto-Igbo branched off sooner than other branches within YEAI. I would like to understand what your thoughts are on how that relates with your Edo-Ondo borderlands postulation. Is there a possibility that such high linguistic diversity in the general area only effectively explains the Akoko context? In other words, are there any consideration that you might have had that gave you pause when attempting to generalize the linguistic diversity in the Edo-Ondo borderlands to the rest of the YEAI branch? If so, I'd very much like to hear them and hear how you reconciled them.

So, let me begin by saying just a little bit more about language diversity in the Akoko area (based on the papers of Jacob Oludare Fadoro).

At least languages of 5 language groups are indigenous to the area. (i) About 10 lects of the Yoruboid family (Oka, Ikare, Oba, etc) are indigenous to the area. (ii) About 3 or 4 lects of the Northwestern branch of the Edoid family are indigenous to the area (Ehuen, Isa, Ukue, etc). (iii & iv) Then there are two as-yet unclassified language groups (but thought to be close relatives of Edoid), Akpes and Ukaan, each with its own lects.

(v) And there is Akokoid itself, which consists of nine lects: Arigidi, Erushu, Afa, Aje, Udo, Oge, Oyin, Igashi, Uro, with varying degrees of mutual intelligibility. Arigidi and Erushu are mutually intelligible enough to be considered one language (given the collective name of Arigidi) , but the other 7 lects are considerably different from Arigidi and Erushu and are collectively seen as a seperate language within the Akokoid family (given the collective name of Owon). The Owon dialects are even considerably divergent, one from the other, and are not all mutually intelligible.

I do not know anywhere else within the YEAI-speaking areas with this level of rich linguistic diversity. All the families of YEAI (and some families related to, but not yet neatly classified as YEAI) except for Igbo, are represented there.

There is also some supporting evidence from Edoid linguistics that also points to that general area as the homeland of Proto-Edoid. Elugbe, the Edo linguist, in his research observed that the northwestern Edoid area has the greatest linguistic diversity with the Edoid family; and he concluded that it was in that area - the hilly area northwest of Benin - that Edoid speakers should look for their linguistic homeland. This leads us straight to the Edo-Ondo borderlands where, as a matter of fact a number of northwest Edoid languages are still spoken.

From the field of Yoruboid linguistics, the picture isn't so perfect, however. While Yoruba linguists like Adetugbo indeed point to the northeastern axis of current Yorubaland (which is at least in the direction of the Edo-Ondo borderlands) as the proto-Yoruboid urheimat, it seems they found the greatest diversity for Yoruba in the area just north of the Ondo-Edo borderlands, in the territory occupied by the Okun-Yoruba. Perhaps, proto-Yoruboid, initially spread northeastwards from the Borderlands, and were domiciled for a long time in the Okun area (long enough to acquire considerable diversity) before secondary dispersions from the Okun area.

Why doesn't Igboid have representation in the Borderlands like all the other branches of YEAI? My postulation would be that proto-Igboid branched off at such an early period, and its footprints were subsequently wiped off by latter-day movements and linguistic assimilations. But I find it interesting that Akokoid (especially the Arigidi branch) is still eerily similar, lexically, to Igbo, even though the two families are geographically separated by Edoid languages and had no remembered interactions before the 20th century. Arigidi is closer to Igboid than to Edoid who are the Akokoid's immediate neighbours to the east (according to Aniche-Ohiri, who calculated 45% lexical similarity for Igbo and Arigidi and 41% lexical similarity for Edo and Arigidi).

ChinenyeN:


Now, the stretch of communities from Ogba to Ahiara share very specific linguistic similarities with Ekpeye that are seemingly missing from all other lects (refer to my earlier comment about the sharp linguistic shift between central and southern lects). These specific linguistic features are shared with rather mininal claims of kinship with no concept of "central migration" across this Ogba-Ahiara stretch (suggesting such an ancient dispersion that it's been altogether forgotten).

Thanks for this. Using wordlists, I have observed linguistic features shared between Ekpeye, Ogba and Ikwerre. I've been referring to these features as "Ekpeyoid", lol. I had no idea these features extended outside the Ogba-Ekpeye-Ikwerre area.

Sometimes when people kick against the idea of Ekpeye being very old with the argument that they can't be that old and be that small unless they had serious fertility issues, I want to start talking about linguistic assimilation.

Is it not plausible that an ancient Igboid-speaking population (that we could tentatively name "Ekpeyoid" occupied the whole southern belt between Ogba and Ahiara, and spoke related lects, of which modern Ekpeye is the only surviving descendant, others having been been drawn into the orbit of other Igbo dialects that had developed different features?

AjaanaOka:


Hmm. 'Ine' is an interesting form to find so far in the hinterland.

May I also point out that use of "ineanyi" is going extinct. If you listen to some old records of Umuoji cultural music like the famous "egwu obi" Umuoji and some Onicha women cultural groups the term is a constant feature.

AjaanaOka:
So, let me begin by saying just a little bit more about language diversity in the Akoko area (based on the papers of Jacob Oludare Fadoro).

At least languages of 5 language groups are indigenous to the area. (i) About 10 lects of the Yoruboid family (Oka, Ikare, Oba, etc) are indigenous to the area. (ii) About 3 or 4 lects of the Northwestern branch of the Edoid family are indigenous to the area (Ehuen, Isa, Ukue, etc). (iii & iv) Then there are two as-yet unclassified language groups (but thought to be close relatives of Edoid), Akpes and Ukaan, each with its own lects.

(v) And there is Akokoid itself, which consists of nine lects: Arigidi, Erushu, Afa, Aje, Udo, Oge, Oyin, Igashi, Uro, with varying degrees of mutual intelligibility. Arigidi and Erushu are mutually intelligible enough to be considered one language (given the collective name of Arigidi) , but the other 7 lects are considerably different from Arigidi and Erushu and are collectively seen as a seperate language within the Akokoid family (given the collective name of Owon). The Owon dialects are even considerably divergent, one from the other, and are not all mutually intelligible.

Ahhh. This has provided much needed context. Thank you.

AjaanaOka:
I do not know anywhere else within the YEAI-speaking areas with this level of rich linguistic diversity. All the families of YEAI (and some families related to, but not yet neatly classified as YEAI) except for Igbo, are represented there.

This exception is exactly the reason for my question. I see though that you have some additional statements on this later in the post, so I'll respond further down in this post.

AjaanaOka:
There is also some supporting evidence from Edoid linguistics that also points to that general area as the homeland of Proto-Edoid. Elugbe, the Edo linguist, in his research observed that the northwestern Edoid area has the greatest linguistic diversity with the Edoid family; and he concluded that it was in that area - the hilly area northwest of Benin - that Edoid speakers should look for their linguistic homeland. This leads us straight to the Edo-Ondo borderlands where, as a matter of fact a number of northwest Edoid languages are still spoken.

From the field of Yoruboid linguistics, the picture isn't so perfect, however. While Yoruba linguists like Adetugbo indeed point to the northeastern axis of current Yorubaland (which is at least in the direction of the Edo-Ondo borderlands) as the proto-Yoruboid urheimat, it seems they found the greatest diversity for Yoruba in the area just north of the Ondo-Edo borderlands, in the territory occupied by the Okun-Yoruba. Perhaps, proto-Yoruboid, initially spread northeastwards from the Borderlands, and were domiciled for a long time in the Okun area (long enough to acquire considerable diversity) before secondary dispersions from the Okun area.

I think I will combine my response to this with below for ease.

AjaanaOka:
Why doesn't Igboid have representation in the Borderlands like all the other branches of YEAI? My postulation would be that proto-Igboid branched off at such an early period, and its footprints were subsequently wiped off by latter-day movements and linguistic assimilations. But I find it interesting that Akokoid (especially the Arigidi branch) is still eerily similar, lexically, to Igbo, even though the two families are geographically separated by Edoid languages and had no remembered interactions before the 20th century. Arigidi is closer to Igboid than to Edoid who are the Akokoid's immediate neighbours to the east (according to Aniche-Ohiri, who calculated 45% lexical similarity for Igbo and Arigidi and 41% lexical similarity for Edo and Arigidi).

Now this (the bolded) is indeed interesting. I assume these are cognate scores. If not for these two bolded items, I might have remained largely unconvinced. But allow me to back up a bit and explain my thought process for context.

I am certainly in favor of the general premise (being southern entry into the Igbo-speaking area). I was just still trying to grasp the Edo-Ondo borderlands part of the speculation. In particular, I assumed (and I guess rightly so) that there would be a lack of representation of Igbo within that axis and I wanted to know what your considerations would be in that regard.

By representation, I don't quite mean the existence of a surviving Igboid lect (though that would be cool and lend significant support to your speculation). Rather, my thoughts were along the lines of at least the existence of a language (or set of languages) in the Edo-Ondo borderlands that is notably lexically close to (at least) Ekpeye. Of course, perhaps not something mutually intelligible, but enough to pique interest. My reasoning is due to the fact that we still witness a high degree of language diversity within that borderland axis. It's high enough that it seems plausible to suspect that the area never experienced language invasion. There is even evidence for that in the spatial distribution of Yoruba/Igala and Edo. We can clearly see the Yoruba/Igala distribution curve around the Edo-Ondo borderlands, indicating the Akokoid family and Akpes, etc. had likely already been settled and existing in that space. This has been my thought process while giving consideration to the Edo-Ondo borderlands postulation. Now back to my response.

The statistics you mentioned in bold triggered some thoughts in my mind, which I believe is more in line with your statement on how you reconciled these considerations. Let me list out my considerations so that my thought process will hopefully be clear.

Basic Assumption/Proposition

Contrary to the currently orthodox opinion of a southward push for Igboid languages, we propose instead an eastward push. In other words, rather than Igbo-speaking communities entering what is now "Igboland" from up north, we suggest instead that they entered from the west (or more predominantly from the south/southwest).

Some Considerations

1. If we look at the spatial distribution of all the YEAI branches, we can conceive of a relatively hard line between Edoid and Igboid language communities. This suggests Igboid language communities moved into that area of the forest before them (having branched off earlier in history).

2. At a casual glance, this spatial distribution gives [me] the impression that there are no remnants of the proto-Igbo branch outside the Igbo-speaking region. In fact, considering the population and spatial distribution, it almost seems as though the entirety of proto-Igbo shifted en masse and remained largely disconnected from the rest of YEAI for quite a long time. There aren't even any notable pockets of highly related Igboid languages sprinkled between the Edo-Ondo borderlands and the western/southwest border of Igbo-speaking communities.

3. However, it is precisely because of the consideration in #2 that this current #3 consideration is particularly interesting. Despite the separation in time and space, Igbo and Akoko have maintained a higher degree of lexical similarity than Akoko and Edo.

Speculative Conclusion

Let me paint a picture of population movements. Relatively dense populations typically force incoming communities to settle around them as opposed to settling through them (i.e. overrun them). A survey of the current spatial distribution suggest that such is the case with both Yoruba/Igala and Edo. Yoruba could seemingly (freely) expand westward, but was seemingly not able to effectively push eastward. Edo could effectively not push eastward or westward, and so was forced to push southward. In both cases, Yoruba/Igala and Edo were forced to settle around the Akokoid and Igboid families respectively.

This seems highly plausible, and it suggests that the expansion of the Yoruboid and Edoid languages would have to have been after the Akokoid. Indeed, referencing the works of Elugbe and Adetugbo (among others), we can see some credence to this. Elugbe's conclusion for the linguistic homeland of Edoid puts us straight on a path to the Ondo-Edo borderlands. Incidentally, it shows a general southern push (or more so southern than eastern). Adetugbo's work points just slightly northward from the Edo-Ondo borderlands. Incidentally, it also shows that the Yoruboid dispersal from that area was forced to wrap around the Akokoid region. It may very well be the case that Edoid and Yoruboid branched around the same time. In other words, they branched from YEAI later than Akokoid and Igboid.

I'm certain you recall our discussion (also here in NL) years back regarding sound and lexical shifts with respect to proto-Igbo and the rest of YEAI. The general trend seemed to be that descendents if earlier branches maintained more recognizable features of the ancestor languages. It stands to reason that more recognizable features of ancestor languages would contribute to higher cognate scores (i.e. Akokoid and Igboid).

That accounts for separation in time. To account for separation in space, it might just be as simple as you stated it. The Igboid family branched off so early that the continued expansion in time created less population density; enough for Edoid to later expand eastward and southward. This can account for separation in space. Since we know that all the YEAI branches are related, and we see the homelands of all but Igbo around Ondo, it would make sense to look away from the Niger-Benue confluence and more towards Ondo for the earliest branching of proto-Igbo speakers. This is actually insane (as in wonderfully bursting my head).

This actually makes far more sense to me than the theory of shooting into the (almost dead center) of what is now "Igboland" and then both radiating outward and simultaneously pushing south from there.

Perhaps this is already a lot in one post. I will come back later to give my thoughts on the Lower Cross aspect of all of this. If anything, the idea of early Lower Cross interactions coupled with the fact that Ekpeye is to the south are the main pillars of this current "Southern Entry" hypothesis.

ChinenyeN:


Ahhh. This has provided much needed context. Thank you.



This exception is exactly the reason for my question. I see though that you have some additional statements on this later in the post, so I'll respond further down in this post.



I think I will combine my response to this with below for ease.



Now this (the bolded) is indeed interesting. I assume these are cognate scores. If not for these two bolded items, I might have remained largely unconvinced. But allow me to back up a bit and explain my thought process for context.

I am certainly in favor of the general premise (being southern entry into the Igbo-speaking area). I was just still trying to grasp the Edo-Ondo borderlands part of the speculation. In particular, I assumed (and I guess rightly so) that there would be a lack of representation of Igbo within that axis and I wanted to know what your considerations would be in that regard.

By representation, I don't quite mean the existence of a surviving Igboid lect (though that would be cool and lend significant support to your speculation). Rather, my thoughts were along the lines of at least the existence of a language (or set of languages) in the Edo-Ondo borderlands that is notably lexically close to (at least) Ekpeye. Of course, perhaps not something mutually intelligible, but enough to pique interest. My reasoning is due to the fact that we still witness a high degree of language diversity within that borderland axis. It's high enough that it seems plausible to suspect that the area never experienced language invasion. There is even evidence for that in the spatial distribution of Yoruba/Igala and Edo. We can clearly see the Yoruba/Igala distribution curve around the Edo-Ondo borderlands, indicating the Akokoid family and Akpes, etc. had likely already been settled and existing in that space. This has been my thought process while giving consideration to the Edo-Ondo borderlands postulation. Now back to my response.

The statistics you mentioned in bold triggered some thoughts in my mind, which I believe is more in line with your statement on how you reconciled these considerations. Let me list out my considerations so that my thought process will hopefully be clear.

Basic Assumption/Proposition

Contrary to the currently orthodox opinion of a southward push for Igboid languages, we propose instead an eastward push. In other words, rather than Igbo-speaking communities entering what is now "Igboland" from up north, we suggest instead that they entered from the west (or more predominantly from the south/southwest).

Some Considerations

1. If we look at the spatial distribution of all the YEAI branches, we can conceive of a relatively hard line between Edoid and Igboid language communities. This suggests Igboid language communities moved into that area of the forest before them (having branched off earlier in history).
3. At a casual glance, this spatial distribution gives [me] the impression that there are no remnants of the proto-Igbo branch outside the Igbo-speaking region. In fact, considering the population and spatial distribution, it almost seems as though the entirety of proto-Igbo shifted en masse and remained largely disconnected from the rest of YEAI for quite a long time. There aren't even any notable pockets highly related Igboid languages sprinkled between the Edo-Ondo borderlands and the western/southwest border of Igbo-speaking communities.
5. However, it is precisely because of the consideration in #2 that this current #3 consideration is particularly interesting. Despite the separation in time and space, Igbo and Akoko have maintained a higher degree of lexical similarity than Akoko and Edo.

Speculative Conclusion

Let me paint a picture of population movements. Relatively dense populations typically force incoming communities to settle around them as opposed to settling through them (i.e. overrun them). A survey of the current spatial distribution suggest that such is the case with both Yoruba/Igala and Edo. Yoruba could seemingly (freely) expand westward, but was seemingly not able to effectively push eastward. Edo could effectively not push eastward or westward, and so was forced to push southward. In both cases, Yoruba/Igala and Edo were forced to settle around the Akokoid and Igboid families respectively.

This seems highly plausible, and it suggests that the expansion of the Yoruboid and Edoid languages would have to have been after the Akokoid. Indeed, referencing the works of Elugbe and Adetugbo (among others), we can see some credence to this. Elugbe's conclusion for the linguistic homeland of Edoid puts us straight on a path to the Ondo-Edo borderlands. Incidentally, it shows a general southern push (or more so southern than eastern). Adetugbo's work points just slightly northward from the Edo-Ondo borderlands. Incidentally, it also shows that the Yoruboid dispersal from that area was forced to wrap around the Akokoid region. It may very well be the case that Edoid and Yoruboid branched around the same time. In other words, they branched from YEAI later than Akokoid and Igboid.

I'm certain you recall our discussion (also here in NL) years back regarding sound and lexical shifts with respect to proto-Igbo and the rest of YEAI. The general trend seemed to be that descendents if earlier branches maintained more recognizable features of the ancestor languages. It stands to reason that more recognizable features of ancestor languages would contribute to higher cognate scores (i.e. Akokoid and Igboid).

That accounts for separation in time. To account for separation in space, it might just be as simple as you stated it. The Igboid family branched off so early that the continued expansion in time created less population density; enough for Edoid to later expand eastward and southward. This can account for separation in space. Since we know that all the YEAI branches are related, and we see the homelands of all but Igbo around Ondo, it would make sense to look away from the Niger-Benue confluence and more towards Ondo for the earliest branching of proto-Igbo speakers. This is actually insane (as in wonderfully bursting my head).

This actually makes far more send to me than the theory of shooting into the (almost dead center) of what is now "Igboland" and then both radiating outward and simultaneously pushing south from there.

Perhaps this is already a lot in one post. I will come back later to give my thoughts on the Lower Cross aspect of all of this. If anything, the idea of early Lower Cross interactions coupled with the fact that Ekpeye is to the south are the main pillars of this current "Southern Entry" hypothesis.

The yoruba pseudo-historians AKA "Our rich culture" chanters will not be happy with you for including ondo in your hypothesis

Macof we are now in ondo, now is the best time to fully discuss the ijale people and by extension all the historically igbo population swallowed up by the invading Yoruba across what is now called yoruba land

AjaanaOka:
Thanks for this. Using wordlists, I have observed linguistic features shared between Ekpeye, Ogba and Ikwerre. I've been referring to these features as "Ekpeyoid", lol. I had no idea these features extended outside the Ogba-Ekpeye-Ikwerre area.

I don't know if this is the same wordlist, but I also have one for Ekpeye, Ogba and Ikwerre from one of David Clark's works. I was using it to fill in Ngwa counterparts so that I could attempt to calculate (as a hobbyist) Ngwa's lexical similarity relative to the other three, but never finished doing that. I got distracted with other things, but I guess this weekend I might try and continue where I left off. I have a screenshot of part of it somewhere. I can dig it up or just take a new screenshot of it, if you'd like to see it. I have it stored in a Google spreadsheet so it will be easy to find.

AjaanaOka:
Sometimes when people kick against the idea of Ekpeye being very old with the argument that they can't be that old and be that small unless they had serious fertility issues, I want to start talking about linguistic assimilation.

Is it not plausible that an ancient Igboid-speaking population (that we could tentatively name "Ekpeyoid" occupied the whole southern belt between Ogba and Ahiara, and spoke related lects, of which modern Ekpeye is the only surviving descendant, others having been been drawn into the orbit of other Igbo dialects that had developed different features?

When people make this sort of population vs age argument, I typically find that they don't quite grasp the nuances of language families and branching relative to population movements. For me, your last paragraph is very plausible. Ever since I learned about Ekpeye and learned more about their lect, I became increasingly convinced that they are the last surviving speakers of a branch that most (if not all) of the southern communities once belonged to; just from the knowledge I have concerning a couple of grammatical features of Ngwa that are considered "archaic" by modern Ngwa speakers.

AjaanaOka:
But there's another reason why I suspect an entry from the south; and that is that proto-Igboid appears to have had a considerable number of loanwords borrowed from the Lower Cross family. Given the spatial distribution of the languages in the Lower Cross family, the interactions that led to these borrowings are more likely to have occurred in the south than in the north. And given that these loanwords are found in virtually all dialects of Igbo including those with no historical interactions with Lower Cross speakers, we cannot ascribe them to latter-day interactions.

One example: the word for canoe/boat in all dialects of Igbo known to me is 'ụgbọ'. It is not cognate with the word for canoe in the other YEAI languages (where it is ọkọ or cognates of ọkọ), but it is cognate with the proto-Lower Cross for canoe, which is ubom. (It is interesting that the verb for paddling in Igbo is still kwọ or related words which are related to ọkọ.)

Another example: the word for vulture in virtually all the dialects of Igbo known to me is udene/udele/odele. It is not cognate with the words for vulture in the other YEAI languages (where the words for vulture has a 'gu' root), but it is cognate with the proto-Lower Cross, which is utere. [Interestingly, again, some dialects of Igbo have preserved a name for vulture which appears to have a 'gu' root: ọbịa ngwu.]

There are indeed a whole group of words for which the Igbo forms are closer to Lower Cross forms than to forms used in the other YEAI languages; and while they may not all be Lower Cross loans, they at least point to a very early interaction between the originators of Proto-Igboid and the speakers of early versions of the modern Lower Cross languages. An interaction that more probably happened in the south than in the north.

It's taken a little longer to get my thoughts together before I respond. So I'll leave this bit while I continue my research and gather my thoughts.

I will actually try to make this one brief as opposed to my last post where I might have ran on for too long. I'll pose it more so as a thought exercise, and give you time to also think about it.

Essentially, I am interested in two things:

1. Based off the currently accepted classification for the Lower Cross languages, what might we be able to estimate their branching and getting a sense of potential timing for proto-Igboid and proto-Lower Cross interaction in pre-history.

2. Reconstructions. I may need to do some digging into Igboid reconstruction and Lower Cross and Central Delta reconstructions and see what linguists have identified as potential loans (taken from Lower Cross/Central Delta).

Ultimately, I wanted to get a general sense of whether or not we can reasonably speculate on early interaction. The reason why is because I do not quite feel so convinced on this front. Personally, I see this Lower Cross component as key to providing reasonable support for a southern entry, but only if we can reconcile it.

If we cannot effectively justify it, then it leaves me wondering if we have no choice but to accept that the southern entry likely only accounts for a yet unidentified proto-Igboid branch (or branches), while other branches potentially had other multiple (perhaps isolated) points of entry.

BUT, if your speculation is right that various words that are ubiquitous across surviving Igboid lects point to pre-historical interaction with Lower Cross ancestor languages, then we end up with a significant discrepancy. Lots to think about.

ChinenyeN:


I don't know if this is the same wordlist, but I also have one for Ekpeye, Ogba and Ikwerre from one of David Clark's works. I was using it to fill in Ngwa counterparts so that I could attempt to calculate (as a hobbyist) Ngwa's lexical similarity relative to the other three, but never finished doing that. I got distracted with other things, but I guess this weekend I might try and continue where I left off. I have a screenshot of part of it somewhere. I can dig it up or just take a new screenshot of it, if you'd like to see it. I have it stored in a Google spreadsheet so it will be easy to find.

I think I have Clark's PhD thesis on the Ekpeye language, but I haven't seen his Ekpeye-Ọgba-Ikwerre wordlist. I have been using Roger Blench's "Comparative Igboid" for my 'analysis'. It's a tasking document to use because of its sheer size, lol.

Yes, I'd like to see it, please.

ChinenyeN:


It's taken a little longer to get my thoughts together before I respond. So I'll leave this bit while I continue my research and gather my thoughts.

I will actually try to make this one brief as opposed to my last post where I might have ran on for too long. I'll pose it more so as a thought exercise, and give you time to also think about it.

Essentially, I am interested in two things:

1. Based off the currently accepted classification for the Lower Cross languages, what might we be able to estimate their branching and getting a sense of potential timing for proto-Igboid and proto-Lower Cross interaction in pre-history.

2. Reconstructions. I may need to do some digging into Igboid reconstruction and Lower Cross and Central Delta reconstructions and see what linguists have identified as potential loans (taken from Lower Cross/Central Delta).

Ultimately, I wanted to get a general sense of whether or not we can reasonably speculate on early interaction. The reason why is because I do not quite feel so convinced on this front. Personally, I see this Lower Cross component as key to providing reasonable support for a southern entry, but only if we can reconcile it.

If we cannot effectively justify it, then it leaves me wondering if we have no choice but to accept that the southern entry likely only accounts for a yet unidentified proto-Igboid branch (or branches), while other branches potentially had other multiple (perhaps isolated) points of entry.

BUT, if your speculation is right that various words that are ubiquitous across surviving Igboid lects point to pre-historical interaction with Lower Cross ancestor languages, then we end up with a significant discrepancy. Lots to think about.

I am actually aware of the weaknesses of the early Lower Cross/Igboid interactions part of this hypothesis.

First, the Lower Cross language are still distantly related to YEAI languages, all being branches of Benue-Congo. So it isn't the easiest of tasks to prove that a shared word is a loan and not just a shared word that had simply disappeared in other member languages.

There have been a number of occasions where a word I initally thought was only shared by Igbo and the Lower Cross had turned up in Akokoid.
For example, the word for ashes, which in Proto-Lower Cross is reconstructed as *ntọn [I cannot reproduce the last 'n' faithfully on my phone, but I think you get it], is certainly related to the Igboid forms for the word. Edoid and Yoruboid use unrelated words, so I made an early jump to the conclusion that here was a linguistic evidence of early proto-Igboid/Cross River interactions. Until I found some Akokoid wordlists and there was ọ́ndọ́, udọ́, ọdọ, as the word for ashes!

Had a similar experience with 'leg' which in Proto-Lower Cross was reconstructed as *ukot, and in most Igbo lects is ukwu. The Ekpeye form uko even looks particularly close to the Lower Cross. Again having found no relatives in Yoruboid and Edoid [by the way, my Edoid is largely limited to Bini and Urhobo - not, so good, apparently] I made the easy leap to PLC/Igboid early relations. Then I found uho for leg in Akokoid.

Man, going through wordlists, trying to identify conections and disconnections, is tiring. You think you're on to something, then there comes a 'rogue' language to throw all your work out the window. Lol.

Of course there is still the big possibility there was word-borrowing involved in the above two words, but that it was actually Proto-Igboid loaning to Proto-Lower Cross. I do remember a previous discussion here on NL where we deconstructed 'ụkwụ' and theorised thst it wss formed from the verb 'kwụ', stand.

But whatever the true picture is with leg and ashes, I'm still pretty confident about a considerable number of other 'shared' words. I've mentioned canoe/boat and vulture. There's also eye, and possibly knife; and a handful of verbs I don't remember offhand, but had made note of in one of my notebooks.

The second weakness for me is the fact that I cannot find any comparative wordlist for Upper Cross River languages. If it could be shown that the words on which this purported PLC/Igboid relations are based have cognates in Upper Cross, then the hypothesis is in trouble. The only Upper Cross language I have access to its wordlist is Mbembe, and so far it appears decidedly different, even though the word for 'vulture' is cognate with the word for it in Igboid and Lower Cross.

ChinenyeN:


If we cannot effectively justify it, then it leaves me wondering if we have no choice but to accept that the southern entry likely only accounts for a yet unidentified proto-Igboid branch (or branches), while other branches potentially had other multiple (perhaps isolated) points of entry.

The multiple, isolated entry theory. Hmm.

Of course we both understand that the people who now identify or who are identified as Igbo didn't migrate into Igboland as a single homogenous band. The diffusion of languages, which we are currently discussing isn't in its entirety the movement of the people (although it was also that to some extent).

I'm inclined to think that multiple-point entry of branches of Igboid would have produced a more linguistically diverse southeast than what the current picture is. Even after taking into account the dialect levelling that latter-day movements like the Isu push out of their Awka-Orlu homeland must have produced.

Here is the link to Clark’s comparative Ekpeye-Ogba-Ikwerre work in PDF. https://www.dropbox.com/s/lkzjylv8oybfwyk/3f84491c623efa45c3e3879c7f1fbf3e.pdf?dl=0

And my comparative addition with Ngwa: https://www.dropbox.com/s/yjmt33gtue85m5r/100%20Wordlist.pdf?dl=0

So I spent the weekend reading through Jacob Oludare Fadoro’s comparative Akokoid wordlist. Sure it may not be enough time to fully digest it and develop a thorough opinion with respect to how it relates with the Igboid context, but something did strike me while reading it; the conclusion where he mentions dialect continuum.

The dialect continuum part reminded me of having read somewhere (I forget where) that (i) dialect continua result from linguistic branches merging into each other and that (ii) such merging is typically made possible when populations become sedentary or agrarian, giving innovations the opportunity to ripple and have more lasting effects. If we work backward from this logic, we can infer the likely existence of multiple proto-Igbo branches in the region.

Working Backwards

(ii) Contrary to the picture painted by current Igbo academia, the key features that are used to define the “homeland” (i.e. dense communities & nfulala traditions) exist outside of the “homeland”. Pockets of independent, agrarian dense populations existed within the Igbo-speaking region for quite a long time (as can be affirmed by the traditions of numerous communities).

(i) Creating a language family hierarchy apparently doesn’t make sense for a dialect continuum, most likely because we cannot consistently replicate cognate scores enough to differentiate branches. Rather, we need to rely on qualitatively examining cognates as well as other linguistic features to create demarcations. If we are lucky, those demarcations could be looked at as being akin to echoes of long-dead genetic branches, and in my non-professional analysis of some linguistic features, I believe that there is a definite isogloss that spans the entire southern belt, leading me to believe it is the remnants of perhaps a couple, genetically related proto-Igbo branches in the region.

I know I’ve expressed this before, but still, this is why I am so disappointed in the Igbo academia at times. I feel that (aside from the Roger Blench documents), no real effort by the academia have been made to advance the study of the isoglosses in the region. They’re so content with the hinterland homeland hypothesis.

Now, I want to show you something. I don’t know if you’ve seen this before or not, but I was reading through some websites I saved when I was researching the Niger-Benue confluence. This is an image from one of them.



I personally find this next part that I am about to dive into a bit exciting, especially when we take into consideration your eastward movement hypothesis. The key area I want you to focus on is the curved border between Igbo and Ibibio. Now, here is a free drawn flow diagram by me to represent the hinterland homeland hypothesis.

[img] https://i.ibb.co/6XYhL2Z/2-C6-FC8-CA-662-E-4-F28-8-DB1-8-A8-D61128-B40.jpg[/img]

And here is another to generalize and represent your southern entry hypothesis.

[img]https://i.ibb.co/q1yFJYQ/9-EA2-B6-D0-5-D6-C-49-FA-AA51-8-CFD237-CB660.jpg[/img]

* I don't know why NL isn't showing these images correctly. Sigh. This is annoying. I guess you may need to open these links in another tab, because they really help illustrate the point.

After actually drawing this out, I started becoming a bit more convinced of your southern entry hypothesis. Compared to the hinterland homeland hypothesis, which seems to work against a flow, yours presents a curious and sensible set of waves. Even though we are only just speculating on cognate relationships with Lower Cross, a west to east push as visualized on the map still seems plausible.

By the way, if you want the link to the site where I pulled the image, you can view it here: https://amightytree.org/niger-congo-languages-and-history/

Now, I’m going to take some liberties and dive into some speculations here.

Recall my statement from earlier, that relatively dense populations typically force incoming communities and to settle around them. I wonder if, in a way, we could observe this same behavior with language innovations.

There is a theme of east to west movement on the part of the Lower Cross and Central Delta families. With their eastward expansion blocked by Bantu-speaking communities, pioneers of proto-Cross Rivers perhaps could have ended up further west (in or near the vicinity of proto-Igbo). Of course, this would have been some time before the more recent mass migrations of Central Delta and Lower Cross.

Long story short, if we consider the flow pattern of surrounding spatial distributions for other language families such as the Cross Rivers, Edoid and Yoruboid, a west to east wave for Igboid makes sense. And it just hit me now! If we attempt to draw demarcating lines for various major isoglosses in the Igbo-speaking region, I would not be surprised if our lines cut and striate more horizontally (indicating west to east expansion) than vertically (indicating north to south expansion). Our linguists need to get on top of this ASAP.

I might say one thing though, considering Ekpeye in all of this. It is of course without a doubt that Ekpeye is an Igboid lect, but Ekpeye did not get caught up in the continuum as other lects did. If we assume that Ekpeye is old (as in an older Igboid branch), then there is the possibility that the Ekpeye branch is a later arrival into the Igbo-speaking region compared to other Igboid branches. If this is the case, it would do two major things for the southern entry speculation.

1. It affirms the antiquity of the southern belt. The fact there existed an older, surviving Igboid lect outside of the continuum that shows high affinity with the southern belt isogloss speaks volumes for our speculative southern entry hypothesis.

2. If the Ekpeye branch is indeed a later arrival into the region, then it would imply that up until relatively recent history, there were in fact pockets of Igboid lects existing outside of the continuum, further west towards Ondo. Ekpeye just so happens to be the only surviving member and the rest were not dense enough to force incoming Edoid waves to wrap around them... .. because the bulk of the Igboid branches had already long since shifted further east.

#2 reconciles my concerns with the current spatial distribution of Igboid lects. Also, Benin had an expansionist monarch era for quite some time. If indeed your west to east expansion is on the right track, then the expansionist Edoid period provides a confounding factor which further reconciles my concerns about the lack of surviving Igboid groups outside of the Igbo-speaking region.

AjaanaOka, my friend. I’ve started coming around to your southern entry hypothesis. Granted, all I am doing is speculating here, but it the speculative support and conclusion is growing on me.

ChinenyeN:
And it just hit me now! If we attempt to draw demarcating lines for various major isoglosses in the Igbo-speaking region, I would not be surprised if our lines cut and striate more horizontally (indicating west to east expansion) than vertically (indicating north to south expansion). Our linguists need to get on top of this ASAP.

Honestly, thinking about it now, we can do this work ourselves thanks to the efforts already made by Williamson and Ohiri-Aniche to provide a comparative wordlist. Decent maps of Igboland already exist. We can just map out the dialects used in Williamson and Ohiri-Aniche's comparative Igboid wordlist and work to identify major isoglosses using the wordlist and other linguistic information. I might be able to start it this weekend.

macof:


1. You wouldn't know this. It's not like there's any additional to the story that is coming from Igbo speaking towns.. The entire story from start to finish exists only in Yorùbá speaking areas but somehow the grand story is about Igbos and only the tiny piece is about yorubas

2. "Igbo" is standard Yoruba dialect, "Ugbo" is central and south Eastern Yoruba dialects... Which both Ife and Ilaje fall into, so yes Ugbo is actually what they called themselves then, as they still do now
As far as historians can 'recall' is also all you have. So what is the issue exactly?

Ùgbo is older than Igbo as a word in Yoruba land with variant meaning. Infact, ùbo is the ancient word for bush, raffia etc.This word is spoken in ancient Ileife,Ijebu enclave.

macof:


1. You wouldn't know this. It's not like there's any additional to the story that is coming from Igbo speaking towns.. The entire story from start to finish exists only in Yorùbá speaking areas but somehow the grand story is about Igbos and only the tiny piece is about yorubas

2. "Igbo" is standard Yoruba dialect, "Ugbo" is central and south Eastern Yoruba dialects... Which both Ife and Ilaje fall into, so yes Ugbo is actually what they called themselves then, as they still do now
As far as historians can 'recall' is also all you have. So what is the issue exactly?

Ùgbo is older than Igbo as a word in Yoruba land with variant meaning. Infact, ùbo is the ancient word for bush, raffia etc.This word is spoken in ancient Ileife,Ijebu enclave etc.

ChinenyeN:
Here is the link to Clark’s comparative Ekpeye-Ogba-Ikwerre work in PDF. https://www.dropbox.com/s/lkzjylv8oybfwyk/3f84491c623efa45c3e3879c7f1fbf3e.pdf?dl=0

And my comparative addition with Ngwa: https://www.dropbox.com/s/yjmt33gtue85m5r/100%20Wordlist.pdf?dl=0

Thanks, especially for the second document with the Ngwa addition. I might amuse myself and try this with my own lect, too. Although I already know by looking through that of the four lects (Ogba, Ekpeye, Ikwerre and Ngwa), mine is going to be more lexically similar to Ngwa, by far, lol.

Now, I want to show you something. I don’t know if you’ve seen this before or not, but I was reading through some websites I saved when I was researching the Niger-Benue confluence. This is an image from one of them.



I personally find this next part that I am about to dive into a bit exciting, especially when we take into consideration your eastward movement hypothesis. The key area I want you to focus on is the curved border between Igbo and Ibibio. Now, here is a free drawn flow diagram by me to represent the hinterland homeland hypothesis.



And here is another to generalize and represent your southern entry hypothesis.



After actually drawing this out, I started becoming a bit more convinced of your southern entry hypothesis. Compared to the hinterland homeland hypothesis, which seems to work against a flow, yours presents a curious and sensible set of waves. Even though we are only just speculating on cognate relationships with Lower Cross, a west to east push as visualized on the map still seems plausible.

By the way, if you want the link to the site where I pulled the image, you can view it here: https://amightytree.org/niger-congo-languages-and-history/

Now, I’m going to take some liberties and dive into some speculations here.

Recall my statement from earlier, that relatively dense populations typically force incoming communities and to settle around them. I wonder if, in a way, we could observe this same behavior with language innovations.

There is a theme of east to west movement on the part of the Lower Cross and Central Delta families. With their eastward expansion blocked by Bantu-speaking communities, pioneers of proto-Cross Rivers perhaps could have ended up further west (in or near the vicinity of proto-Igbo). Of course, this would have been some time before the more recent mass migrations of Central Delta and Lower Cross.

Long story short, if we consider the flow pattern of surrounding spatial distributions for other language families such as the Cross Rivers, Edoid and Yoruboid, a west to east wave for Igboid makes sense. And it just hit me now! If we attempt to draw demarcating lines for various major isoglosses in the Igbo-speaking region, I would not be surprised if our lines cut and striate more horizontally (indicating west to east expansion) than vertically (indicating north to south expansion). Our linguists need to get on top of this ASAP.

You know, I actually thought on using maps to illustrate my Edo-Ondo homeland and the Southern Entry hypotheses, because I didn't think non-graphic explanation would be sufficient to explain these ideas. Glad you did this, and can see how quite compelling and (quite honestly) elegant these theories are. Lol.

I might say one thing though, considering Ekpeye in all of this. It is of course without a doubt that Ekpeye is an Igboid lect, but Ekpeye did not get caught up in the continuum as other lects did. If we assume that Ekpeye is old (as in an older Igboid branch), then there is the possibility that the Ekpeye branch is a later arrival into the Igbo-speaking region compared to other Igboid branches. If this is the case, it would do two major things for the southern entry speculation.

1. It affirms the antiquity of the southern belt. The fact there existed an older, surviving Igboid lect outside of the continuum that shows high affinity with the southern belt isogloss speaks volumes for our speculative southern entry hypothesis.

2. If the Ekpeye branch is indeed a later arrival into the region, then it would imply that up until relatively recent history, there were in fact pockets of Igboid lects existing outside of the continuum, further west towards Ondo. Ekpeye just so happens to be the only surviving member and the rest were not dense enough to force incoming Edoid waves to wrap around them... .. because the bulk of the Igboid branches had already long since shifted further east.

#2 reconciles my concerns with the current spatial distribution of Igboid lects. Also, Benin had an expansionist monarch era for quite some time. If indeed your west to east expansion is on the right track, then the expansionist Edoid period provides a confounding factor which further reconciles my concerns about the lack of surviving Igboid groups outside of the Igbo-speaking region.

ChinenyeN, there are a few things I want to say about some of the points you raised, such as:

1. Ekpeye representing a more recent intrusion of an isolated Igboid branch into the east.

2. The existence in the past of Igboid branches west of the Niger, and a possible 'drowning out' of these branches by the expanding Edoid.

But I do not know how to say them, because the stages that these thoughts are in my head are so premature, they do not even qualify to be called hypotheses.

In an offline discussion I had with a very history-minded Ika friend early last year, we discussed the possibility that the Ekpeye may have come from West of the Niger, from the general Isoko-Aboh area. We discussed some place-names that we thought offered linguistic proof of migration from that area. At that point, I was far from thinking that our hypothetical migration into Ekpeye territory from that area (Isoko-Aboh) accounted for anything other than the addition of another 'layer of people' on top of an already settled Ekpeye people.

In the light of this discussion, however, I might just have to begin to ask myself if perhaps our (my and my Ika friend's) suspected movement from Isoko-Aboh may not actually represent the movement eastward of an Igboid branch previously located West of the Niger under pressure from Southern Edoid (Isoko/Urhobo) and 'Aboh' groups.

About the previous existence of West-Niger Igboid branches erased by Edoid expansion:

See, I have not been able to stop thinking about the special position of the Erohwa/Eruwa language within the Southern Edoid languages. While Erohwa speakers are counted as Isoko, they speak a language that is quite clearly not Isoko. The traditions also are quite clear that they arrived that region long before other Edoid speakers got there. I'm not trying to insinuate that Erhowa is an Igboid lect, because it is not; but I am really curious about what a comparative analysis of Erohwa lexical items will reveal. But all my attempts to get a wordlist have failed. The language is clearly understudied. Frustrating.

ChinenyeN:


Honestly, thinking about it now, we can do this work ourselves thanks to the efforts already made by Williamson and Ohiri-Aniche to provide a comparative wordlist. Decent maps of Igboland already exist. We can just map out the dialects used in Williamson and Ohiri-Aniche's comparative Igboid wordlist and work to identify major isoglosses using the wordlist and other linguistic information. I might be able to start it this weekend.

I'm really curious to see what you come up with. I think Victor Manfredi tried to do something similar in his PhD thesis "Ágbọ̀ and Ẹ́hụgbò: Ìgbo linguistic consciousness, its origins and limits". (If you haven't seen it it's available online.)

I haven't completely digested Manfredi's work because for some reason, his philological discussions bore me, but based on isoglosses and other linguistic information, he theorises that Proto-Igboid had two branches: Southern and Northern. Each of which had further sub-branches.
I'll attach a screenshot below.

I'll like to see to what extent your findings corroborate his. Me, I already have small misgivings about his work on this, just based on this illustration.

Looking at Manfredi's chart, I have become aware of something I didn't notice before, but I am forced to notice now, after all the recent reiterations by Abagworo on NL about Ekpeye being closely related to groups on the Cross River.

According to Manfredi's proposal, the closest lects to the lect group to which Ekpeye (represented by Èhwụdà) belongs [i.e., the Delta group] are the Cross River Igbo lects [i.e., the Ẹ̀nyòm group], since both Delta and Enyom are daughter branches of the same Lowland sub-branch.

If Manfredi's theory means anything, then perhaps, an ancient southern proto-Igboid group or collection of groups (today represented by Ekpeye and some Ikwerre lects) migrating in an east-to-west direction ran into a Delta-Cross/Lower Cross migration stream going in the opposite direction. The clash of both streams may have blunted the tip of the Igboid stream, producing a northward curve that subsequently became isolated in the valley of the Cross River.

AjaanaOka:
Thanks, especially for the second document with the Ngwa addition. I might amuse myself and try this with my own lect, too. Although I already know by looking through that of the four lects (Ogba, Ekpeye, Ikwerre and Ngwa), mine is going to be more lexically similar to Ngwa, by far, lol.

Please do try it with your own lect. I’d definitely like to see it.

AjaanaOka:
ChinenyeN, there are a few things I want to say about some of the points you raised, such as:

1. Ekpeye representing a more recent intrusion of an isolated Igboid branch into the east.

2. The existence in the past of Igboid branches west of the Niger, and a possible 'drowning out' of these branches by the expanding Edoid.

But I do not know how to say them, because the stages that these thoughts are in my head are so premature, they do not even qualify to be called hypotheses.

In an offline discussion I had with a very history-minded Ika friend early last year, we discussed the possibility that the Ekpeye may have come from West of the Niger, from the general Isoko-Aboh area. We discussed some place-names that we thought offered linguistic proof of migration from that area. At that point, I was far from thinking that our hypothetical migration into Ekpeye territory from that area (Isoko-Aboh) accounted for anything other than the addition of another 'layer of people' on top of an already settled Ekpeye people.

In the light of this discussion, however, I might just have to begin to ask myself if perhaps our (my and my Ika friend's) suspected movement from Isoko-Aboh may not actually represent the movement eastward of an Igboid branch previously located West of the Niger under pressure from Southern Edoid (Isoko/Urhobo) and 'Aboh' groups.

Sorry, but do you mind expanding on/clarifying this part for me a bit more. I understand the aspects of the discussion with your Ika friend, but I am not sure I follow the last part about how/why our current conversation is prompting you to revisit your working theories.

AjaanaOka:
About the previous existence of West-Niger Igboid branches erased by Edoid expansion:

See, I have not been able to stop thinking about the special position of the Erohwa/Eruwa language within the Southern Edoid languages. While Erohwa speakers are counted as Isoko, they speak a language that is quite clearly not Isoko. The traditions also are quite clear that they arrived that region long before other Edoid speakers got there. I'm not trying to insinuate that Erhowa is an Igboid lect, because it is not; but I am really curious about what a comparative analysis of Erohwa lexical items will reveal. But all my attempts to get a wordlist have failed. The language is clearly understudied. Frustrating.

Interesting, perhaps I might search along with you then. Maybe one of us will eventually get luckily and we can share the findings with the other.

AjaanaOka:
If Manfredi's theory means anything, then perhaps, an ancient southern proto-Igboid group or collection of groups (today represented by Ekpeye and some Ikwerre lects) migrating in an east-to-west direction ran into a Delta-Cross/Lower Cross migration stream going in the opposite direction. The clash of both streams may have blunted the tip of the Igboid stream, producing a northward curve that subsequently became isolated in the valley of the Cross River.

A few things to note about this that might make this plausible.

Now, if we casually look at their oral traditions, there is the claim of migration from outside what we currently know as “Igboland” (current modern, political definition). Some like Abiriba and Aro coming from deeper into Cross Rivers territory. Others like Ohafia, Item etc coming from what is now Rivers state, wrapping around Obolo and migrating northeastward.

If we casually examine the linguistic features of these communities, we can immediately tell that their linguistic branches are part of the dialect continuum. It stands to reason that their linguistic ancestors had to have been in the area for quite some time (as with the rest of the older pockets of proto-Igboid branches) and got caught up in the continuum. If so, it then suggest a deeper easterly extension of proto-Igboid branches into what is now Cross Rivers (in the case of communities like Abiriba and Aro). It also supports the idea of linguistic merging for southern proto-Igboid branches and proto-Lower Cross (if not proto-Cross Rivers itself).

And yes, if we conceptualize it more like streams (the way your west to east hypothesis generates sensible waves), then it seem plausible.

UNDERSTANDING THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN ASA AND NDOKI AND THEIR HISTORY AND ORIGIN

The Ukwa homeland in recent years has become a center of dispute, controversy and land grabbing between the Igbo and the Ijaw on one hand and the igbo and the Ogoni on the other.


The Asa, Ndoki and Omuma(now part of Echie) were referred to as Ndi Ukwa by their neighbors to the North the Ngwa, their lands extends into Rivers State and so has been a source of dispute between igbo and Ijaw about the identity of the Ndoki in particular.


THE ASA

The Asa were the first group to inhabit that area they currently reside,
They originated down further South towards the creeks,
the Asa were one of the authoctonous groups related to the Ekpeye(also related to the groups who were also aboriginals of Ikwerre area) and spoke a similar dialect. They were long settled along the creeks and swamps close to the coasts, they were proficient in Forestry and we're skilled farmers and lumberjacks.


The Westward expansion of the Ijaw in the late periods brought the Asa into contacts with the Okirika, they were the aboriginals to the area around Abuloma before the Okirika came. The extension of Tai and Gokana(Ogoni) migration into the region that became Eleme brought them into confrontation with Asa groups.

Ogoni reports that the authoctonous groups they encountered at Eleme were proficient and very successful yam farmers, very skilled in Forestry and had big mounds, they were organized into small farming villages headed by yam kings.

The Ogoni referred to the Asa who were their neighbors as the "Pya Saga" or the saga people,
It means "the slashers" in reference to a particular skill the Asa excelled in, they were very hardworking and good in felling trees and clearing virgin forests which abounded in the area, the ever more expanding Ogoni this enlisted the services of Asa labourers to clear more land for farming and settlement.

The Asa as this shows were proficient in Iron technology but were a peaceful and docile people, they were not warlike in nature.

The Asa earlier had settled the Virgin Forests beyond the Imo River all the way up to where Modern day Aba and Ugwunagbo lies, (The Asa are the aboriginals of Aba South and Ugwunagbo) With Okirika and Ogoni expansion the Asa were pushed up further North towards Obigbo.

Sometime in the 17th century, the Ngwa began a series of land hungry and grabbing sweep Southwards bringing them into conflict with the Asa, that's what brought the Ngwa into the Aba and Obi Ngwa area in the first place, the Asa being peaceful people some migrated but many remained with the Ngwa groups, they intermarried and mingled together especially the groups at Ugwunagbo which are still largely of Asa heritage.
The Asa despite the tragedies went back to what they did best, the Ngwa employed them to clearing forests and creating farmlands and settlements, they called them Ndi Asia osisi (tree slashers) which is how the name Asa came about.

Asa groups extends from Ugwunagbo down to Ukwa West and Obigbo,
They are divided into 3 clans, the Oza, Ipu, and asa, with a 4th clan Ohuru-na-mkporobo which is currently under Ndoki but are Asa people, (Mkporobo came from Asa-Umunka in current day Ugwunagbo)
The Asa dialect is somewhat intermediary between Ikwerre and Ngwa, e.g house is Uro, water is mini, father is teete, and the rest.

THE NDOKI

Alagoa is a historian I have respect for, his rich knowledge and talented way of penning his thoughts, he was a skilled writer, he was an Ijaw Nationalist and like many Nigerian historians he gave in sentiments and politics
He may not at first have had designs on the Ndoki, but subsequent developments necessasitated it. You see in his pan Ijaw-ism, Alagoa had released a book detailing Ijaw history and Origins in which he highly exaggerated the Ijaw element in Bonny and passed Bonny as one of the major Ijaw towns, it was not received well in the scholarly world, it was major consensus that Ibani had migrated to their current location from Ndoki and what ever Ijawness there was in Bonny was via assimilation, so how can a people who.migrated from the igbo hinterland be Ijaw, this loophole sent Alagoa back to his burrow where he edited his work and did what Ijaw historians did best, he edited and exaggerated his way through Ndoki history and turned them into Ijaws overnight,

One thing I give Alagoa credit for is that prior to his Ijaw nationalism, Ijaw clans were equally as crazed with Benin origin as many of the Western Igbo, Alagoa's movement crushed it amongst the Ijaws. You see the Ndoki's equally had a tradition tracing their origin to Benin(albeit misconstrued history) and there is a reason for this tradition you will understand why.
Alagoa in his book states that the Ndoki left from Ijaw land around the Sagbama area to make it to their current location.

But whether Benin or Sagbama there is one place where the two accounts agree on, the Ndoki left from Oguta and settlements along the Niger, all the areas meantioned such as Ndoni, Atissa, Onya, these are all traditionally Oru-Igbo areas in the past, since they came from Oru (Oguta) they went to Umunoha and from there to Isuama before making it to Imo River, they eventually settled first at Umuagbayi and then pushed up into Annang country around the Azumini River,

The reason for this Benin tradition is very obvious, they came from an area around Oguta with a long standing relationship with Benin, a lot of Benin tales and Benin influence, so they probably went with such tales, but since their trail cannot be traced beyond Oguta, it is glaring that Ndoki are an Oru(Ogbashu) people who went Eastwards from the Niger, any story of their origin from Bayelsa are concocted lies.
The Oru origin of the Ndoki is very evident in their riverine culture despite the fact that they have mixed with Asa, Ngwa, and Annang to produce the blend of culture and language they have today, but the Ndoki remained fearless seafarers, the Riverine was what made them despite living inland to venture to the open seas following the course of the Imo River, it is this sojourn that took them to Bonny Island, where they soon started settling on mass, it is not clear if they met small Ijaw fishing camps already domiciled there or if the Ijaw groups came later, but we equally cannot deny the Ijaw element in Bonny,
However it is worth noting that the Ijaw expansion into the Eastern Niger Delta is pretty recent at least 18th century.

The wading of the Ndoki into the creeks and Open Sea brought them in contact with the Ijaw houses who were expanding Eastwards, cross Cultural exchanges took place with exchange of wives, slaves, goods etc, even Ndoki land served as refuge for Ijaw fleeing their many protracted wars which is how Ijaw influences diffused into Ndoki land,
The Ndoki dominated trade up and down the Imo River(this was before the rise of Opobo) in a much similar way to how Aboh, Ossomari and Oguta ran trade on the Niger. The Ndoki dialect still bears some similarities and names with the Ogbashu at the Niger.

The Nwaotam masquerade originated from Ndoki from there travelled to Bonny and then Opobo... It is still a major part of these three communities.

Ndoki is made up of the following clans, Umuihueze, Ikwuriator, Obohia, Ikwueze, Umuokobo and ika-na-annang (remnants of Annang people from abak and ika who settled in Ndoki) and Oha Obu currently in Akwa Ibom State.

The Umuihueze group which includes the famous town of Akwete is trace their descent from one Ihu son of Eze, they common meeting place was at Obunku and their sacred juju is known as Ogu

The Ikwuriator group settled around the Azumini creeks trace their line of descent from Kwokwo Eze another son of Eze, their common juju or deity is known as Ajamaja

Obohia is descended from iloko another son of Eze.

Ikwueke did not have a common ancestor but comprises of people who came together for a common interest and security,
Their common meeting place was Eti and they had a central juju or deity known as Ariaga.

Umuokobo traces their descent to Okobo one of the original settlers at UmuAgbayi, they do not go to war on Eke day.
Ohanku was founded by Abam migrants while Ohambele had its origin in Ibeme clan.

Ibeme clan which is one of the largest clans in Obi Ngwa are an Ndoki people, they were once under Azumini courts before in colonial times but for some reason in 1945 were carved into Okpuala Ngwa district court and during the creation of Local Governments they were ceded to Ngwa, However they still maintain cultural and linguistic links with Ndoki
Ibeme is made up of four sub clans, Ibeme, Abala, Oberete-Isiala and Abala Nkamiri

Akwete as a town became famous of its textile industry and was famously patronized by most Ijaw towns in the creeks, the cloth they produce is known as akuraku and Ikaki Ibite.

So apparently. The ASA and Ndoki entered Southern Igboland from a Western Igbo(Ukwuani) direction, same as Ekpeye.

Actually, thanks for bringing this up, Igboid. It triggered something in my mind. AjaanaOka, this might be of interest to you with respect to proto-Lower Cross and proto-Igbo merging.

Ndoki (Umueze) and Asa (Ipu and Oza) do not have an in situ tradition and share the memory of a west-east (and in the case of Asa, south-north) migration (much like Ohafia and Item, etc.). Some people within these communities actually have a Benin story (Umueze, Ipu, Oza), some only mention migrating from the Ikwerre area (Ipu, Oza), some mention migrating in the company of Ijaw (Umueze). Whichever the case, Asa and Ndoki either migrated from or through the Ikwerre area to get to their present location, and there is evidence of some affinity in their lects.

With this context, I am trying to wrap my mind around one particular thing; the use of "teete" (father) in Asa and Ndoki (this time, Umueze and other communities like Ohambele, and by extension Ibeme in Ngwa). Their use of "teete" is obviously a cognate of proto-Lower Cross word for father. Whether this is a loan or not is not my main concern. It most likely is, but it has been incorporated rather well (and dynamically) into their lects as opposed to being static in its usage (as may sometimes be characteristic of loan words).

teete (father)
teetekwu (grandfather)
nwate (kinsman)

In fact, I'm not so much fascinated with the use of "teete" as I am with the level of adoption it has had, suggesting it's active use within their speech communities for quite some time. If we factor in the stretch from Ndoki to Ekpeye, we have more variety of terminology for "father" than anywhere else in the Igbo-speaking region. There is also some similarities with respect to reduplication, i.e. teete, didi, etc. that I have not noticed among other speech form (but I guess this isn't saying much since I cannot claim to be versed in every Igbo speech form).

Anyhow, your thoughts on how a supposed crossing of streams between proto-Lower Cross (at least) and proto-Igbo could have blunted the spacial distribution of Igboid branches might very well have a real basis. There is evidently significant branching within the southern strip of Igbo-speaking communities, whether it be from standalone proto-Igboid branches, or a yet unknown cross-stream event (or series of events) between proto-Igboid and proto-Lower Cross (at least), or even both. Establishing relative dating for all of this will be a different story, however.

ChinenyeN:


Sorry, but do you mind expanding on/clarifying this part for me a bit more. I understand the aspects of the discussion with your Ika friend, but I am not sure I follow the last part about how/why our current conversation is prompting you to revisit your working theories.

It has to do with something you said, which have also crossed my mind on ocassions.

Ekpeye was not caught up in the continuum. It has some markedly different features that suggests long-term isolation from the other lects. But seeing as Ekpeye territory is contiguous with the rest of the Igbo-speaking world, and there's no difficulty in assessing the area from the north and the east (as far as I know, anyway), it is difficult to explain how it was isolated from the main developments occurring across the other lects.

But perhaps, if one postulates that Ekpeye represents a remnant Igboid speech community west of the Niger that crossed the river at a latter period under pressure from the expanding Edoid frontier.

Perhaps too (and this is only a perhaps) the Akalaka story preserves in an attentuated form the memory of this latter movement of an Igboid community from West of the Niger.

This 're-thinking' sort of goes against the 'neat' explanation for the Akalaka movement that I have been walking around with for some years now.

Anyway, it is nothing but a little wondering. Could very well be flat-out wrong.

Pardon the long absence. Things got a little hectic offline.

ChinenyeN:
Actually, thanks for bringing this up, Igboid. It triggered something in my mind. AjaanaOka, this might be of interest to you with respect to proto-Lower Cross and proto-Igbo merging.

Ndoki (Umueze) and Asa (Ipu and Oza) do not have an in situ tradition and share the memory of a west-east (and in the case of Asa, south-north) migration (much like Ohafia and Item, etc.). Some people within these communities actually have a Benin story (Umueze, Ipu, Oza), some only mention migrating from the Ikwerre area (Ipu, Oza), some mention migrating in the company of Ijaw (Umueze). Whichever the case, Asa and Ndoki either migrated from or through the Ikwerre area to get to their present location, and there is evidence of some affinity in their lects.

With this context, I am trying to wrap my mind around one particular thing; the use of "teete" (father) in Asa and Ndoki (this time, Umueze and other communities like Ohambele, and by extension Ibeme in Ngwa). Their use of "teete" is obviously a cognate of proto-Lower Cross word for father. Whether this is a loan or not is not my main concern. It most likely is, but it has been incorporated rather well (and dynamically) into their lects as opposed to being static in its usage (as may sometimes be characteristic of loan words).

teete (father)
teetekwu (grandfather)
nwate (kinsman)

In fact, I'm not so much fascinated with the use of "teete" as I am with the level of adoption it has had, suggesting it's active use within their speech communities for quite some time. If we factor in the stretch from Ndoki to Ekpeye, we have more variety of terminology for "father" than anywhere else in the Igbo-speaking region. There is also some similarities with respect to reduplication, i.e. teete, didi, etc. that I have not noticed among other speech form (but I guess this isn't saying much since I cannot claim to be versed in every Igbo speech form).

Anyhow, your thoughts on how a supposed crossing of streams between proto-Lower Cross (at least) and proto-Igbo could have blunted the spacial distribution of Igboid branches might very well have a real basis. There is evidently significant branching within the southern strip of Igbo-speaking communities, whether it be from standalone proto-Igboid branches, or a yet unknown cross-stream event (or series of events) between proto-Igboid and proto-Lower Cross (at least), or even both. Establishing relative dating for all of this will be a different story, however.

Asa uses teete, too? Interesting. I always thought it was just Ndoki; and yes I had since noted the similarity with the word for father in Lower Cross languages.

I know next to nothing about the Asa lect actually,and had just assumed that it probably had the greatest linguistic affinity with Ngwa, until it was pointed out to me that the Asa call house 'uro'. I'm curious about what their words for a few other things are. Like, earth/ground, water... I should perhaps draw up a little list, lol.

Addendum: Concerning traditions of Benin ancestry in Asa, would you say these traditions predate the 1970s or so? Do they appear in Colonial Intelligence Reports, for instance?

ChinenyeN, what is your opinion on the piece shared by Igboid that puts Ngwa expansion in the 17th century?

A PhD thesis I was reading sometime ago suggests the 15th century.

I know from previous posts that you believe/believed the Ngwa had more or less taken control of the territory they now occupy by the 15th century, when (according to you) Asimini first made contact with the Portuguese at Bonny. Do you still hold that view? Do you have a working chronology of Ngwa expansion?