1Sharon:

You said where did I get I get that from, ME or the MAJORITY of Christians?

I'm not a Christian and I'm going by what Christians believe is the name of God.

I can also claim to know that a majority of Christians do not in fact call God Jesus Christ. So where does that leave us?

Kobojunkie:
I can also claim to know that a majority of Christians do not in fact call God Jesus Christ. So where does that leave us?

1Sharon:

Christians don't call god Jesus?

Here is my initial comment to you, where did I claim to know anything?

Do majority of Christians believ god's name is Jesus Christ, yes or no?

1Sharon:

Here is my initial comment to you, where did I claim to know anything?

Do majority of Christians believ god's name is Jesus Christ, yes or no?

According to the book that the Christians believe contain the words of their God, God's name is in fact not Jesus Christ. So no, Christians do not all God Jesus Christ.

Also, Christianity has never been a belief based on the views of a majority so I fail to see the meaning in your second question there.

Kobojunkie:
According to the book that the Christians believe contain the words of their God, God's name is in fact not Jesus Christ. So no, Christians do not all God Jesus Christ.

Also, Christianity has never been a belief based on the views of a majority so I fail to see the meaning in your second question there.

I never said all, I said majority.

Now do majority of Christians believe God's name is Jesus yes or no?

1Sharon:


I never said all, I said majority.

Now do majority of Christians believe God's name is Jesus yes or no?

I never said anything about all either.
And I still dont see what your views of your so-called majority of Christians has to do with any of this.

Kobojunkie:
I never said anything about all either.
And I still dont see what your views of your so-called majority of Christians has to do with any of this.

Kobojunkie:
According to the book that the Christians believe contain the words of their God, God's name is in fact not Jesus Christ. So no, Christians do not all God Jesus Christ.

Also, Christianity has never been a belief based on the views of a majority so I fail to see the meaning in your second question there.

Now, do majority of Christians believe God's name is Jesus yes or no? And will many of them come in here and disagree with your comment?

1Sharon:
Now, do majority of believe God's name is Jesus yes or no? And will many of them come in here and disagree with your comment?

My mistake there about the use of the word "All" there.

Now that still does not make meaningful your question about what majority of Christians call God or not since the name of God(if it exists) should exist independent of the views of a majority.

Kobojunkie:
My mistake there about the use of the word "All" there.

Now that still does not make meaningful your question about what majority of Christians call God or not since the name of God(if it exists) should exist independent of the views of a majority.

Liar.

And what is the name of God and why don't majority agree with you?

1Sharon:

Liar.

And what is the name of God and why don't majority agree with you?

I am a liar for stating an obvious fact about the Christian belief? Interesting...

Kobojunkie:
I am not certain God Himself has a definite name such as His creations do, nor do I think He needs one.
However, to those whom He gave the Old Covenant, He gave the name YHWH - a name by which the covenant can be invoked. The name Jesus Christ applies to the New Covenant.

Kobojunkie:

I am a liar for stating an obvious fact about the Christian belief? Interesting...

So his name in the OT is Yahweh and in the NT is Jesus?

Aren't Yahweh and Jesus supposed to be the same ?

1Sharon:


So his name in the OT is Yahweh and in the NT is Jesus?

Aren't Yahweh and Jesus supposed to be the same ?

in addition, ...

Kobojunkie:

Christians do not call God Jesus Christ(that is instead the name associated with the New Covenant which is the contract between God and individual Christian). And Jews call Him YHWH because that is the name given per the covenant made to them through their Father Abraham.

If a name does indeed apply, surely it would have been made known long before Abraham showed up in the scene. So, do tell, what is God's name before the name YHWH was given Abraham?

Do recall that unlike His creation, He, God, is one and only -There is no other God besides Him - therefore He has no need for a name.

1Sharon:


Aren't Yahweh and Jesus supposed to be the same?

Supposed, according to whom?

Was Jesus praying to himself when he prayed, or did you just not bother to read the book yourself and are accepting what some people tell you?

budaatum:

There was a time it was taught and believed that the world was created in six days. There are even people here on NL who will argue that the world was created in six days. And they will not claim their knowledge is relative, but that those who do not believe as they do are ignorant.

Okay!

budaatum:

I have said this, that knowledge is never complete because there will be the unknown tomorrow, knowledge of which we will never have until it becomes today. You may therefore say, knowledge is relative to space and time, a position Heidegger takes in his Being and Time (which I implore you listen to the first 30 minutes), but knowledge is not relative with respect to people at the same space and time.

We will not say, "the knowledge of maths of an ignorant person is relative to that of a maths professor". But we can say their respective knowledge is relevant to the space and time they exist in. You can not relatively pass a maths exam if you write the wrong answers to the question, but your parents might be relatively pleased that you just sat the exam though you failed, while another parent might be displeased with their child for scoring 99% instead of 100%. The fact that Nigerians are not making computer chips is not because our computer chip knowledge is relative, but because Nigerians have insufficient knowledge to create computer chips.

I think we can agree that knowlege is on a general note in this world of several constraints is never complete. However a secondary school mathematics students may be knowledgeable with respect to his peers but completely ignorant when you compare him with the knowlege of the professor of mathematics. In this sense, the knowlege of the mathematics student is relative to the standard of comparison.

budaatum:

It is more like religion in that those inside the cave believe the inside of the cave that has been preached to them generation after generation is the entire knowledge that is haveable as in available to be had. They basically believe that their ignorance is all the knowledge that is out there, so they do nit bother to.learn

The Father is like the Jesus who comes to change their beliefs and view, and we all know what was done to him, we crucified him.

The Father is also like the serpent whom we tell ourselves is satan though it opened our eyes. We vilify it.


They arrived and moved nowhere! They so refused to move and arrive that they even bashed the head of the father who tried to make them move and arrive! If they were in the Garden of Eden, they would have obeyed the God and refuse to eat the Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and their eyes would never have opened nor would they have become wise and self employed! If they lived in Jesus time, they'd be there yelling "Crucify him! Crucify him!"


You are misunderstanding the allegory of the cave if you believe this! Those in the cave were so unaware of the outside of the cave that they bashed in the head of the one who told them about it.


You are allowing what you believe about atheists to distort your perception. Not all atheists are materialists who only accept what they see. But that is aside. Let us concentrate on the forest in our own eyes please.

Yes, "Jesus came to guide us to have our own experience of the outside world". Yet, many Jesus people believe what they are told to believe instead of going out into the world to have their own experiences. Many remain blind inside the cave and are incapable of having their own experiences even if they stepped out of the cave. Can you understand if I said they live in a cage, and refuse to be freed by Christ?

No sir!
Humans are locked in the physical/visible space. Try as they might, their senses are locked within this frame.
A few humans herein referred to as "fathers" were able to leave the physical space and connect with the spiritual dimension (The Father's are People like Abraham, Moses, Elijah and Jesus).

These Fathers have come back to tell us not to be locked within our physical space and not only told us about the world beyond but to free ourselves from the limitations of the physical reality.

Unfortunately, few of those who dared to explore the spiritual realm got to the ultimate of having their hurting eyes adjust to the brightness of the sun. Many came back with a distorted view of the spiritual world. Many also (without leaving the prison of the physical reality) just believe without finding out by themselves.

The truth is that the Father's aim is not that we may believe them BUT that we venture out to see what they have seen with their "eyes". Jesus in particular has come to how us HOW to venture out to reach the final destination of KNOWING God by ourselves.

budaatum:

Can you see that they are not like Adam and Eve who ate the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and would have remained blind and ignorant and enslaved in the Garden of Eden forever?

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil isn't knowledge. It is an exam that confers independence in decision of what is good or evil at the exclusion of God.

There is nothing positive with failing this exam for it robs you of your core essence of being a spiritual Being. You become just an intelligent animal. But as a god, you have an innate capacity to decide what is good or what is evil unfortunately with a corrupted operating system!

budaatum:

Actually, they were constrained like those in Plato's Cave by the fact that they believed the incomplete information that they had was knowledge, which it was not.


You are failing to separate information from knowledge, and are treating them as the same thing, which they are not.

Knowledge is not relative. It is the information one has that is relative to the person who has it. The Chinese will say, "the person at the top of the mountain sees further than the person at the bottom". If you sit on your ass you'd have little information and think you know a lot though you may know very little.

The knowledge one has is simply relative to how diligently one has climbed the mountain to knock and ask and seek for Knowledge that is out there waiting to be discovered. Those who climb not are relatively ignorant, at least relative to those who have climbed. And if those at the bottom claim they have knowledge, those at they very top will laugh and grin at the ignorance of those at the bottom, as will those who eat the Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil grin at those who refuse to eat for fear that on the day that eat they shall surely die, when the truth is, they are dead already because they eat it not. For it is the lack of knowledge that kills, and not its acquisition.

I have not assumed that knowlege and information are the same thing.

Knowlege is the ability to store, recall and apply information.

Information is just processed data or the conclusions from datasets.

Whenever an information is INCOMPLETE, it results to an INCOMPLETE knowlege. An incomplete knowledge is usually because the information (conclusions {or understanding} from a dataset is incomplete)


God planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden, why does He want people to remain in ignorance?

budaatum:


Supposed, according to whom?

Was Jesus praying to himself when he prayed, or did you just not bother to read the book yourself and are accepting what some people tell you?

According to Christians. Take it up with them not me.

budaatum:


Supposed, according to whom?

Was Jesus praying to himself when he prayed, or did you just not bother to read the book yourself and are accepting what some people tell you?

According to Christians. Don't act dumb.

Kobojunkie:

I am a liar for stating an obvious fact about the Christian belief? Interesting...

Lying about using a word and claiming not to

What obvious fact? Majority of Christians will NOT agree with you.

1Sharon:


According to Christians. Don't act dumb.

Christians do not all believe the same things as you'd know if you are not dumb. You will find them arguing in many threads here if you bothered to check, which is why I strongly suggest you read the book yourself to know what is written in it instead of relying on the misunderstanding of those who might not have read it.

budaatum:


Christians do not all believe the same things as you'd know if you are not dumb. You will find them arguing in many threads here if you bothered to check, which is why I strongly suggest you read the book yourself to know what is written in it instead of relying on the misunderstanding of those who might not have read it.

Majority of Christians believe the same things. Only a small sect of Christians don't believe God and Jesus are the same. And how well are those ones accepted?

Misunderstanding? Let me guess, you're the special chosen one with divine understanding right? And all other are unfortunate and lost right?

1Sharon:


Majority of Christians believe the same things. Only a small sect of Christians don't believe God and Jesus are the same. And how well are those ones accepted?

Misunderstanding? Let me guess, you're the special chosen one with divine understanding right? And all other are unfortunate and lost right?

Do the majority dictate what is written in the book?

Did you read inside it yourself that Jesus is God?

Does one need to be a special one to use ones own eyes and brain?

budaatum:


Do the majority dictate what is written in the book?

Did you read inside it yourself that Jesus is God?

Does one need to be a special one to use ones own eyes and brain?

I'm not a Christian. Majority of Christians believe that Jesus is god, you take that question up with them.

You feel you know better, tell them.

I'm reiterating what is believed.

1Sharon:


I'm not a Christian. Majority of Christians believe that Jesus is god, you take that question up with them.

You feel you know better, tell them.

I'm reiterating what is believed.

If I wanted to discuss Christian beliefs I would find a Christian who believes it to discuss it with.

What I am however discussing here is what 1Sharon believes or knows or understands, and if 1Sharon would oblige me by speaking for herself, I would more than appreciate it especially if 1Sharon is not just spreading the ignorance of others.

So, I ask. Are you parroting what you have been told to believe or what you read in the book and know for yourself?

budaatum:


If I wanted to discuss Christian beliefs I would find a Christian who believes it to discuss it with.

What I am however discussing here is what 1Sharon believes or knows or understands, and if 1Sharon would oblige me by speaking for herself, I would more than appreciate it especially if 1Sharon is not just spreading the ignorance of others.

So, I ask. Are you parroting what you have been told to believe or what you read in the book and know for yourself?

In that case, stop mentioning me and go ahead talk to your fellow Christians. Cos we have done nothing but talk about Christian beliefs

Ignorance of others? They would also call you ignorant, even an apostate.

,'What I have been told to believe or read and know in a book myself'?

I just told you I'm not a Christian, why ask me that dumb question?

You are not a Christian. You are just mentioning what you believe Christians believe. Got you.

1Sharon:


In that case, stop mentioning me and go ahead talk to your fellow Christians. Cos we have done nothing but talk about Christian beliefs

Ignorance of others? They would also call you ignorant, even an apostate.

,'What I have been told to believe or read and know in a book myself'?

I just told you I'm not a Christian, why ask me that dumb question?

budaatum:
You are not a Christian. You are just mentioning what you believe Christians believe. Got you.

Nope, I'm mentioning what I KNOW Christians believe.


Majority of Christians believe God is the same as Jesus. Your views are in the minority and not widely accepted.

Am I wrong or right?

Sorry sharon, but you'd find I'm not particularly interested in beliefs since they are usually the crap that people create inside their heads, mostly without reading the book, it being a big book and rarely read by most, or misunderstood when read.

Do hola though whenever you wish to discuss knowledge, like what is actually written in the book you read for yourself, as I am always interested in the views of intelligent people who read.

1Sharon:


Nope, I'm mentioning what I KNOW Christians believe.


Majority of Christians believe God is the same as Jesus. Your views are in the minority and not widely accepted.

Am I wrong or right?

budaatum:
Sorry sharon, but you'd find I'm not particularly interested in beliefs since they are usually the crap that people create inside their heads, mostly without reading the book, it being a big book and rarely read by most, or misunderstood when read.

Do hola though whenever you wish to discuss knowledge, like what is actually written in the book you read for yourself, as I am always interested in the views of intelligent people who read.

Well! We're on the same page. Yes I also know there's a lack of continuity between religious beliefs and the holy books.

I'm coming to the levels of Christians by reiterating what they believe.


What was our initial premise again?

The name of God being Jesus?

1Sharon:


Jews call him Yahweh and Christians call him jesus

Wrong!
Jews call Him Yahweh
Christians call Him Yahweh
But
Muslims call him Allah (the god)

shadeyinka:

Wrong!
Jews call Him Yahweh
Christians call Him Yahweh
But
Muslims call him Allah (the god)

So Christians don't call god Jesus at all

1Sharon:


So Christians don't call god Jesus at all

You have said:

Jews call him Yahweh and Christians call him jesus

And I said:

Jews call Him Yahweh
Christians call Him Yahweh
But
Muslims call him Allah (the god)

The Word created everything
-The Word was God
-The Word became Human
-The Human was named on Earth as Yashua (meaning Yahweh Saves)

Jesus on earth was God (the Word) devoid of His Glory as God!

The name of God (El-ohim, El-Shaddai, Adonai) is NOT Jesus, the name of God is Yahweh.

Every other identity is a Description or Title for Yahweh! The name Jesus was given to the Messiah about 2000 years ago however, He had existed before everything: therefore the real name of God isn't Jesus, His name is Yahweh (Jesus is a nomenclature of Identity)

budaatum:


Not all! And it has definitely been corrupted since it is in no way in its original form it started out as.

The Torah is the result of a long process of editing (or redaction, as it is called by scholars). This means that there is no one date that one can be pointed to as the date of composition. Most scholars think that the final major redactions took place after 539 BCE when Cyrus the Great conquered the Neo-Babylonian Empire.
https://member.ancient.eu/Torah/

The books of the Christian Bible were arranged in the sequence one finds them in today to tell the story of the creation of the world by a supreme deity, the fall of man from paradise, and humanity's redemption by the Son of God but these books were not written in that sequence nor would the original authors of the Old Testament works have had that particular story in mind.
https://member.ancient.eu/bible/

..the Hebrew Bible did not begin as a single book; rather, it developed over time through the compilation of many Judean texts. The texts, though, were not always understood as divinely inspired, authoritative, holy texts; the role of Judean texts in religious expression developed between the 6th century BCE and 1st century CE.
https://member.ancient.eu/article/1139/early-judaism/

I do not agree entirely with this view.
Yes, there are minor differences with ancient texts but until one can show complete revisions can on insinuate a corruption of the original text.

Secondly, the Bible was written not as a single book but as individual books by several authors spanning many centuries which was later compiled as one book.

shadeyinka:

I do not agree entirely with this view.

I can hardly expect you to agree with what contradicts your belief. You after all do not agree that Adam and Eve too did not surely die on the day they ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil despite the fact that the text clearly states that they did not surely die on the day that they ate but found it good for gaining wisdom and their eyes opened and they went on to have offspring and lived till 930 years old.

shadeyinka:

Yes, there are minor differences with ancient texts but until one can show complete revisions can on insinuate a corruption of the original text.

I once told you that a satan who can meddle in the affairs of heaven and in the Garden of Eden would find it very easy to meddle in the writing of the Bible, but I think you treated my suggestion as a thing a serpent would say.

Lol if you think the vast organisation that provided the initial Bible from which we got our translations would not efficiently ensure the version they want you to get is what you got, or that the same meddling would not have been done with the Torah long before it, and even the translations long after. Or do you think Martin Luther was persecuted for the fun of it?

shadeyinka:
Secondly, the Bible was written not as a single book but as individual books by several authors spanning many centuries which was later compiled as one book.

Complied and edited and with lots of books that never made it for various reasons. And discerning minds will still have noticed the various Inconsistencies and Contradictions that survived due to the fact that diverse writers were writing in different times and places with different views and opinions.

Those willing to grow in wisdom and understanding will not deny the inconsistencies and contradictions, but learn the lesson they can from the fact that those Inconsistencies and Contradictions do exist, and are what make the Bible the book of treasure that it is, as it shows by its development the evolution of human thought.

The error, as I repeatedly point it, is the need to believe that has been cultivated in the majority (instead of the need to reason with the brain the Lord God placed inside your head), that makes many think a Lord God Almighty would lie to you that on the day that you eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil that will enable you to "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth", you will surely die.

The fact that satan has succeeded, for now, is indicated in how some claim a person who went on to live for 800 or so years afterwards and who was fruitful and multiplied in producing us and has replenished the earth (at least that of it we have not destroyed yet), and subdued it so it provides us with resources like energy, and who's fruitful decendants are on the way to Mars and Jupiter, surely died on the day that they ate of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil that gave them the knowledge to do all those things.

Thankfully, God saw the evil humans were believing and sent the only begotten Son to teach us to acquire understanding instead, for which satan after failing at meddling with his mind, meddled with human minds so we crucified his poor ass!

Yet, for God so loved the world we got the Holy Spirit to further minister to us, and [url=https://classic.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+John+5%3A21&version=KJV]not using it is a grave sin[/url].

budaatum:

I can hardly expect you to agree with what contradicts your belief. You after all do not agree that Adam and Eve too did not surely die on the day they ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil despite the fact that the text clearly states that they did not surely die on the day that they ate but found it good for gaining wisdom and their eyes opened and they went on to have offspring and lived till 930 years old.

But I wasn't totally disagreeing with you. I didn't just take your position which to me is too leftist.

budaatum:

I once told you that a satan who can meddle in the affairs of heaven and in the Garden of Eden would find it very easy to meddle in the writing of the Bible, but I think you treated my suggestion as a thing a serpent would say.

No sir: I didnt!
I didnt take that kind of stance.

budaatum:

Lol if you think the vast organisation that provided the initial Bible from which we got our translations would not efficiently ensure the version they want you to get is what you got, or that the same meddling would not have been done with the Torah long before it, and even the translations long after. Or do you think Martin Luther was persecuted for the fun of it?

Its not as bad as you have put it.
The old testament is Jewish scripture. It will take a miracle for christians and jews to edit the old testament. Not every book in the Rabbis library are regarded as scripture such as the Maccabees but are valuable historical sources

budaatum:

Complied and edited and with lots of books that never made it for various reasons. And discerning minds will still have noticed the various Inconsistencies and Contradictions that survived due to the fact that diverse writers were writing in different times and places with different views and opinions.

I doubt if any of the authors of the scriptures knew that their writings will become part of the scripture. They were just writing Chronicles as they understood it for posterity.
You will agree that not all theological books can be termed as scriptures even though, they may have great theological values.

budaatum:

Those willing to grow in wisdom and understanding will not deny the inconsistencies and contradictions, but learn the lesson they can from the fact that those Inconsistencies and Contradictions do exist, and are what make the Bible the book of treasure that it is, as it shows by its development the evolution of human thought.

It's amazing that about 26 authors of greatly varying educational qualifications, exposures, background etc could write thesis which harmonizes the knowledge of God. We should expect hundreds of gross contradictions

budaatum:

The error, as I repeatedly point it, is the need to believe that has been cultivated in the majority (instead of the need to reason with the brain the Lord God placed inside your head), that makes many think a Lord God Almighty would lie to you that on the day that you eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil that will enable you to "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth", you will surely die.

The fact that satan has succeeded, for now, is indicated in how some claim a person who went on to live for 800 or so years afterwards and who was fruitful and multiplied in producing us and has replenished the earth (at least that of it we have not destroyed yet), and subdued it so it provides us with resources like energy, and who's fruitful decendants are on the way to Mars and Jupiter, surely died on the day that they ate of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil that gave them the knowledge to do all those things.

For you, death can only occur at the physical level.
For me, death can occur both at the physical and spiritual level.

budaatum:

Thankfully, God saw the evil humans were believing and sent the only begotten Son to teach us to acquire understanding instead, for which satan after failing at meddling with his mind, meddled with human minds so we crucified his poor ass!

Yet, for God so loved the world we got the Holy Spirit to further minister to us, and [url=https://classic.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+John+5%3A21&version=KJV]not using it is a grave sin[/url].

The Lamb of God was prepared from the foundation of the world that imperfect being like me can have grace for justification