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The Problem Of Believing Morality Comes From A God Or Gods. - Religion - Nairaland

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The Problem Of Believing Morality Comes From A God Or Gods. by hiddendude: 10:29pm On Apr 06
Disclaimer: I'm a theist and this thread isn't to say morality isn't objective, it aims to highlight problems with the divine command theory.


A long surviving philosophical quandary (problem) to believing in God-dictated morality is the Euthyphro problem. It was posed by Socrates to Euthyphro in a discourse and it goes thus:

"Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious or it is pious because it is loved by the gods?"

Simply put: "Is something right because it is commanded by God or God commands something because it is right?"

While this doesn't seem like it is a problem, it poses a huge one regardless of what your answer is. To explain how, I'll take each horn of the problem and explain why it is a problem.



1. Something is right because God commands it:

You might be compelled to think God only commands appealing things like "do not kill", "do not commit adultery" e.t.c. but those of us who know our Old Testament, would agree that God does command killing when he feels like it.
Now, imagine a hypothetical scenario where God appears to you and says he's reversing the 10 commandments and you can now do their opposites and not obeying this instruction would be a sin. Would you?


2. God commands something because it is right:

This implies that there is something above God. How? God commanding something because it is right means he cannot command what is wrong, hence he is obliged by such circumstance. If God could never at some point command what he pleases, it means God like us is obliged to a moral standard and is thus below it. It means morality is what God has just discovered and uses. It is not right because he commands it, he commands it because it is right. This makes God superfluous or unnecessary with regards to the grand scope of morality. It means if God did not ever exist, morality would still exist because it is independent of God's command.



Your thoughts?
Re: The Problem Of Believing Morality Comes From A God Or Gods. by Dtruthspeaker: 10:34pm On Apr 06
hiddendude:
Disclaimer: I'm a theist and this thread isn't to say morality isn't objective, it aims to highlight problems with the divine command theory.

Your first fall here is that you do not know the history of Morality and you think morality is made by men as gleaned from your previous post!
Re: The Problem Of Believing Morality Comes From A God Or Gods. by hiddendude: 10:35pm On Apr 06
Dtruthspeaker:


Your first fall is that you do not know the history of Morality
What is the history of morality? How is that relevant to this thread?
Re: The Problem Of Believing Morality Comes From A God Or Gods. by Dtruthspeaker: 10:39pm On Apr 06
hiddendude:

What is the history of morality? How is that relevant to this thread?

You can not know or understand the number 7 or 10 without understanding 0 and 1.

And the beginning is who made Laws of Rights and Wrong?

God or man?

I bet you did not know till now that morality refers ALWAYS to that which is ALWAYS RIGHT and GOOD!
Re: The Problem Of Believing Morality Comes From A God Or Gods. by hiddendude: 10:44pm On Apr 06
Dtruthspeaker:


You can not know or understand the number 7 or 10 without understanding 0 and 1.

And the beginning is who made Laws of Rights and Wrong?

God or man?

It is one thing to know what a number is, it is another to know that there are numbers preceding or succeeding said number. I can know the number 7 or 10 if I am taught what they look like on a surface (say a board or surface one could write on) but learning to count to 7 or 10 is a different thing altogether.


Your second question is a loaded question fallacy. Being a Christian myself, I would throw in a bias by saying God made the laws yet it doesn't solve the problem I have highlighted. It only begs the question over and over.
Re: The Problem Of Believing Morality Comes From A God Or Gods. by hiddendude: 10:47pm On Apr 06
Dtruthspeaker:


You can not know or understand the number 7 or 10 without understanding 0 and 1.

And the beginning is who made Laws of Rights and Wrong?

God or man?

I bet you did not know till now that morality refers ALWAYS to that which is ALWAYS RIGHT and GOOD!

*sigh*

You bet? How did you arrive at the conclusion that I do not know what morality is? My guess is I'm in for a crappy argument with no logical basis but I'll give you the benefit of proving me wrong.
Re: The Problem Of Believing Morality Comes From A God Or Gods. by kingxsamz(m): 10:51pm On Apr 06
If morality comes from the Christian god, then I guess we can say it's okay to murder people whose beliefs doesn't align with ours simply because the Christian god said it's okay.
Re: The Problem Of Believing Morality Comes From A God Or Gods. by Dtruthspeaker: 10:55pm On Apr 06
hiddendude:


*sigh*

You bet? How did you arrive at the conclusion that I do not know what morality is? My guess is I'm in for a crappy argument with no logical basis but I'll give you the benefit of proving me wrong.

Truth does not like to be Hidden, it would show, so I do not need to prove it and besides that is not what this thread is about.

It is about

"Is something right because it is commanded by God or God commands something because it is right?"

Which I am poised to answer!
Re: The Problem Of Believing Morality Comes From A God Or Gods. by Dtruthspeaker: 10:59pm On Apr 06
hiddendude:

Being a Christian myself, I would throw in a bias by saying God made the laws yet it doesn't solve the problem I have highlighted. It only begs the question over and over.

Like you said, I do not know what you know so it is time for you to present what you know then I can match it up with mine.

And the first thing is where do you think Morality comes from? Or who do you think is in charge of Morality or what is your own opinion as to the source of Morality?

Both your Bias and Unbiased view is welcome!
Re: The Problem Of Believing Morality Comes From A God Or Gods. by hiddendude: 11:03pm On Apr 06
Dtruthspeaker:


Truth does not like to be Hidden, it would show, so I do not need to prove it and besides that is not what this thread is about.

It is about

"Is something right because it is commanded by God or God commands something because it is right?"

Which I am poised to answer!

You're poised to answer but you have not.
Re: The Problem Of Believing Morality Comes From A God Or Gods. by hiddendude: 11:03pm On Apr 06
Dtruthspeaker:


Like you said, I do not know what you know so it is time for you to present what you know then I can match it up with mine.

And the first thing is where do you think Morality comes from? Or who do you think is in charge of Morality or what is your own opinion as to the source of Morality?

Both your Bias and Unbiased view is welcome!

My opinion on morality matters less. This is derailing the thread.
Re: The Problem Of Believing Morality Comes From A God Or Gods. by truespeak: 11:07pm On Apr 06
kingxsamz:
If morality comes from the Christian god, then I guess we can say it's okay to murder people whose beliefs doesn't align with ours simply because the Christian god said it's okay.

Do you not already murder people whose beliefs do not align with yours e.g Armed Robbers who kill and rape you and your daughters on their belief, that they have a right to take from you because they can!

Or Murderers who believe they have a right to kill you and their victims!

Why do you kill these people or murder as you choose to call it?

Simple because they are gravely harmful and a danger to you and it is only Right (Moral) to safeguard yourselves and do away with persons of grave danger to you and others!

Amongst other good reasons!

Thus No Wrong here!
Re: The Problem Of Believing Morality Comes From A God Or Gods. by Dtruthspeaker: 11:13pm On Apr 06
hiddendude:


My opinion on morality matters less. This is derailing the thread.

Yet you opened a thread on "Morality"!

I think I know who you are!
Re: The Problem Of Believing Morality Comes From A God Or Gods. by kingxsamz(m): 11:15pm On Apr 06
truespeak:


Do you not already murder people whose beliefs do not align with yours e.g Armed Robbers who kill and rape you and your daughters on their belief, that they have a right to take from you because they can!

Or Murderers who believe they have a right to kill you and their victims!

Why do you kill these people or murder as you choose to call it?

Simple because they are gravely harmful and a danger to you and it is only Right (Moral) to safeguard yourselves and do away with persons of grave danger to you and others!

Amongst other good reasons!

Thus No Wrong here!

You're not bright and this is by far the worse scenario anyone has ever used. I expected better from you.
And when next you want to make silly assumptions like the one @bolded, make sure it's logical at least, and stop generalizing. There's a reason why we have the law to prosecute folks who indulge in such acts.
In the mean time, check what belief means.
And In conclusion to your write up, if anyone finds it right to murder rapists, kidnappers and murderers, therefore it's right for one to kill others for not practicing their religion? Okay.

This is the worst take I've seen on this forum. undecided
Re: The Problem Of Believing Morality Comes From A God Or Gods. by hiddendude: 11:16pm On Apr 06
Dtruthspeaker:


Yet you opened a thread on "Morality"!

I think I know who you are!

Again, assuming from little or no evidence at all. What moral theory I subscribe to is of no relevance to this thread. It is a thread on the problems with the divine command theory that demands a possible resolution. Haba, think straight na!
Re: The Problem Of Believing Morality Comes From A God Or Gods. by hiddendude: 11:23pm On Apr 06
kingxsamz:
If morality comes from the Christian god, then I guess we can say it's okay to murder people whose beliefs doesn't align with ours simply because the Christian god said it's okay.
The euthyphro problem is a problem for any religion that believes God or gods are precursors to morality.
Re: The Problem Of Believing Morality Comes From A God Or Gods. by hiddendude: 11:25pm On Apr 06
truespeak:


Do you not already murder people whose beliefs do not align with yours e.g Armed Robbers who kill and rape you and your daughters on their belief, that they have a right to take from you because they can!

Or Murderers who believe they have a right to kill you and their victims!

Why do you kill these people or murder as you choose to call it?

Simple because they are gravely harmful and a danger to you and it is only Right (Moral) to safeguard yourselves and do away with persons of grave danger to you and others!

Amongst other good reasons!

Thus No Wrong here!

You're making an argument from necessary evil which doesn't resolve the problem highlighted. Again, it is a derailment.
Re: The Problem Of Believing Morality Comes From A God Or Gods. by hiddendude: 11:27pm On Apr 06
kingxsamz:
If morality comes from the Christian god, then I guess we can say it's okay to murder people whose beliefs doesn't align with ours simply because the Christian god said it's okay.

Errm, you haven't even made a good argument or at least one that is relevant to the thread.
Re: The Problem Of Believing Morality Comes From A God Or Gods. by Dtruthspeaker: 11:28pm On Apr 06
hiddendude:

Again, assuming from little or no evidence at all.

That's how criminals are caught. From No Evidence, to little hairs of evidence and boom, they whole crime and the criminal is exposed!

hiddendude:

What moral theory I subscribe to is of no relevance to this thread. It is a thread on the problems with the divine command theory that demands a possible resolution. Haba, think straight na

Truth does not like to be Hidden, and I see you that you keeping in tune with your Monika which is to remain in Darkness.

I know ONLY ONE Group of Persons who love Darkness and they Do Not Like The Light meanwhile Truth is Always Light.

And given your first surpise attack on me, plus the newness of your Monika, I understand that you must know me and you are already against me no matter what I reasonably say!
Re: The Problem Of Believing Morality Comes From A God Or Gods. by truespeak: 11:28pm On Apr 06
kingxsamz:


You're not bright and this is by far the worse scenario anyone has ever used. I expected better from you.
And when next you want to make silly assumptions like the one @bolded, make sure it's logical at least. There's a reason why we have the law to prosecute folks who indulge in such acts.
In the mean time, check what belief means.
This is the worst take I've seen on this forum. undecided

grin grin grin grin

You did not know you people commit "Murder" according to you when you represented by your Authorities hang a person for Murder or Armed Robbery!

For that is what you have said in accusing God of Murdering those who have gone contrary to His Rules, you are also guilty of Murdering those who have gone contrary to your Rules of " Do not Steal or Do not Kill e.t.c" thus according to your reasoning they and you are Murderers!

See how you kill yourself! grin grin grin
Re: The Problem Of Believing Morality Comes From A God Or Gods. by truespeak: 11:32pm On Apr 06
hiddendude:


You're making an argument from necessary evil which doesn't resolve the problem highlighted. Again, it is a derailment.


grin grin You should rather direct this to Kingsamz who brought this into the thread causing my response, which again makes me wonder about who you really are!
Re: The Problem Of Believing Morality Comes From A God Or Gods. by hiddendude: 11:34pm On Apr 06
Dtruthspeaker:


That's how criminals are caught. From No Evidence, to little hairs of evidence and boom, they whole crime and the criminal is exposed!


What exactly makes one a criminal other than sufficient evidence to that effect? Again, you make very poor arguments



Truth does not like to be Hidden, and I see you that you keeping in tune with your Monika which is to remain in Darkness.
It's spelled "moniker" and what does my moniker have to do with my arguments? Again, you make very poor arguments

I know ONLY ONE Group of Persons who love Darkness and they Do Not Like The Light meanwhile Truth is Always Light.

And given your first surpise attack on me, plus the newness of your Monika, I understand that you must know me and you are already against me no matter what I reasonably say!
I am not new to Nairaland and this is a very new account and I also have never seen you in my life. This is even my first time of encountering someone like you on Nairaland. Please do not assume what you do not know about me, I do not tolerate defamation of character.
Re: The Problem Of Believing Morality Comes From A God Or Gods. by hiddendude: 11:35pm On Apr 06
truespeak:



grin grin You should rather direct this to Kingsamz who brought this into the thread causing my response, which again makes me wonder about who you really are!
He makes a bad argument as well and I have addressed this. Keep wondering who I am.
Re: The Problem Of Believing Morality Comes From A God Or Gods. by hiddendude: 11:37pm On Apr 06
Dtruthspeaker:


That's how criminals are caught. From No Evidence, to little hairs of evidence and boom, they whole crime and the criminal is exposed!



Truth does not like to be Hidden, and I see you that you keeping in tune with your Monika which is to remain in Darkness.

I know ONLY ONE Group of Persons who love Darkness and they Do Not Like The Light meanwhile Truth is Always Light.

And given your first surpise attack on me, plus the newness of your Monika, I understand that you must know me and you are already against me no matter what I reasonably say!

You've not said anything reasonable. You're just a bag of bad arguments.
Re: The Problem Of Believing Morality Comes From A God Or Gods. by truespeak: 11:37pm On Apr 06
hiddendude:

He makes a bad argument as well and I have addressed this. Keep wondering who I am.

I already know! grin grin
Re: The Problem Of Believing Morality Comes From A God Or Gods. by kingxsamz(m): 11:39pm On Apr 06
truespeak:


grin grin grin grin

You did not know you people commit "Murder" according to you when you represented by your Authorities hang a person for Murder or Armed Robbery!

For that is what you have said in accusing God of Murdering those who have gone contrary to His Rules, you are also guilty of Murdering those who have gone contrary to your Rules of " Do not Steal or Do not Kill" thus according to your reasoning they and you are Murderers!

See how you kill yourself! grin grin grin

Just say you're an extremist who would kill for his god and I'll understand, because this your point is baseless and stup!d at the same time.

"Because humans punish criminals for breaking laws, therefore Christians should kill who doesn't believe in their god or obey their god's rules".
Dumbest crap I've seen this month.
Goodnight, and I'm done with this argument.
At least you've told us who you really are and what you're willing to do.
Re: The Problem Of Believing Morality Comes From A God Or Gods. by hiddendude: 11:42pm On Apr 06
truespeak:


I already know! grin grin

This is strange! Especially as this is my first time encountering you. It is especially a bad time for me as you happen to be very stupid.

1 Like

Re: The Problem Of Believing Morality Comes From A God Or Gods. by truespeak: 11:45pm On Apr 06
kingxsamz:


Just say you're an extremist who would kill for his god and I'll understand, because this your point is baseless and stup!d at the same time.

"Because humans punish criminals for breaking laws, therefore Christians should kill who doesn't believe in their god or obey their god's rules".
Dumbest crap I've seen this month.
Goodnight, and I'm done with this argument.
At least you've told us who you really are and what you're willing to do.

Translation: I don kill myself na, wetin I wan talk again!
grin grin grin
Re: The Problem Of Believing Morality Comes From A God Or Gods. by truespeak: 11:46pm On Apr 06
hiddendude:


This is strange! Especially as this is my first time encountering you. It is especially a bad time for me as you happen to be very stupid.

More Insults!

Gotcha!

grin grin grin grin
Re: The Problem Of Believing Morality Comes From A God Or Gods. by Image123(m): 1:46am On Apr 07
kingxsamz:
If morality comes from the Christian god, then I guess we can say it's okay to murder people whose beliefs doesn't align with ours simply because the Christian god said it's okay.

Does He say so or you're the same ignorant Samuel.
Re: The Problem Of Believing Morality Comes From A God Or Gods. by Ihedinobi3: 11:05am On Apr 07
hiddendude:
Disclaimer: I'm a theist and this thread isn't to say morality isn't objective, it aims to highlight problems with the divine command theory.


A long surviving philosophical quandary (problem) to believing in God-dictated morality is the Euthyphro problem. It was posed by Socrates to Euthyphro in a discourse and it goes thus:

"Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious or it is pious because it is loved by the gods?"

Simply put: "Is something right because it is commanded by God or God commands something because it is right?"

While this doesn't seem like it is a problem, it poses a huge one regardless of what your answer is. To explain how, I'll take each horn of the problem and explain why it is a problem.



1. Something is right because God commands it:

You might be compelled to think God only commands appealing things like "do not kill", "do not commit adultery" e.t.c. but those of us who know our Old Testament, would agree that God does command killing when he feels like it.
Now, imagine a hypothetical scenario where God appears to you and says he's reversing the 10 commandments and you can now do their opposites and not obeying this instruction would be a sin. Would you?


2. God commands something because it is right:

This implies that there is something above God. How? God commanding something because it is right means he cannot command what is wrong, hence he is obliged by such circumstance. If God could never at some point command what he pleases, it means God like us is obliged to a moral standard and is thus below it. It means morality is what God has just discovered and uses. It is not right because he commands it, he commands it because it is right. This makes God superfluous or unnecessary with regards to the grand scope of morality. It means if God did not ever exist, morality would still exist because it is independent of God's command.



Your thoughts?

Hi there.

I'm a Christian and a pastor-teacher. I'm also active to some degree in apologetics, so I can appreciate philosophy, at least to some degree.

I don't care much for philosophy, however. I am wary of it and I warn fellow Christians too to be careful of it. It carries a certain arrogance with it that is not often apparent to those who mess with it. Soon enough, one even deigns to challenge truth and demand that it meet certain standards of the challenger's own making in order to be accepted as truth. It is madness in itself.

But I don't assume that you are a Christian in spite of your mention of the Old Testament. You have not said that you are, so I will not hold you to Christian standards. I will only warn you that my answer is a Christian one and that, as such, you may not find it satisfying. I will certainly do my best to be reasonable, but I cannot guarantee your satisfaction.

The Euthyphro Dilemma is not really a dilemma from the Christian perspective. In the Christian worldview, God is right, and God is good, but God is not whimsical or inconsistent.

That is, if God commands anything, His very command of it makes it right. However, God is not changeable. His Character is the same at all times, so His commands are always of the same class. He never makes inconsistent commands even if it appears that He does.

To demonstrate, let me piggyback on one of the instances you raised. The Lord God gave a commandment that one ought never to commit murder (not to not kill, but to not murder). However, He also commands the destruction of whole communities. In order to make sense of this, we must get to what His Purpose for creation is. Why does God prohibit killing outside of military and police action but not within it? Why should military and police action exist at all?

The reason is that God wants every human being to have a fair opportunity to make a free will choice about Him. Each person must choose whether to submit to Him or to rebel against Him. If such a person is killed, then that opportunity is ended. Therefore, God prohibits wanton killing to safeguard that opportunity. But if a community has essentially set itself against such an opportunity, killing off people who might otherwise make a choice, then in order to prevent such behavior from spreading beyond that community, God can command that the community be destroyed by killing every member of it. This is what God does to the Amorite nations in Canaan through the Israelites and later to the Israelites through the Assyrians and Babylonians.

Police action is similar in that instead of communities, individuals are targeted. If someone insists on denying others the opportunity that God gives to everyone, then God commands the killing of such a person so that others can make their own free choices without undue interference from him or her.

So, while the Euthyphro Dilemma might bother someone who does not understand God and therefore only judges God by emergent actions or commands that he or she does not understand, it won't bother anyone who has learned who God is through reading the Bible and being taught it by a gifted and prepared pastor-teacher.

In conclusion, the biblical position is that "good" is defined by God's Perfect and Unchanging Character. Therefore, whatever God commands is good because God commands it, and because God does not change, God commands whatever He commands because that thing is good since it derives from His perfect and unchanging character.
Re: The Problem Of Believing Morality Comes From A God Or Gods. by MaxInDHouse(m): 11:57am On Apr 07
Humans are free agents, each person is given freewill so each person can decide right and wrong from his/her own perspective.
But because we have different hobbies and thoughts there must be a standardized from of rules governing the human race otherwise things will certainly get out of hand as one man's meat may likely be another man's poison!

The issue of morality (right from wrong) is non-negotiable, but since most people don't want to be submissive to any form of standard they may say it's not supposed to be imposed on anyone after all each one of us can decipher right from wrong.
But let's learn from experience!
Some 100 years ago here in Nigeria many girls are proud of their virginity, parents of a virgin will be proud to speak about their daughter as an exemplary amongst others, so any man coming to ask for her hand in marriage will be scrutinized to know what type of family background, job and attitude he has. What about today? Well things have changed over the times, it's the other way round, no girl will come out in the midst of her mates to speak about virginity rather it's talks about how they smashed some dude in the other room! And nobody gives a damn about this except those still keeping the word of God! smiley

So if we should remove God completely from the scene i tell you that a time will come on this planet when humans will prefer human meat in the market to beef or pork! undecided



hiddendude:

Disclaimer: I'm a theist and this thread isn't to say morality isn't objective, it aims to highlight problems with the divine command theory.


A long surviving philosophical quandary (problem) to believing in God-dictated morality is the Euthyphro problem. It was posed by Socrates to Euthyphro in a discourse and it goes thus:

"Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious or it is pious because it is loved by the gods?"

Simply put: "Is something right because it is commanded by God or God commands something because it is right?"

While this doesn't seem like it is a problem, it poses a huge one regardless of what your answer is. To explain how, I'll take each horn of the problem and explain why it is a problem.



1. Something is right because God commands it:

You might be compelled to think God only commands appealing things like "do not kill", "do not commit adultery" e.t.c. but those of us who know our Old Testament, would agree that God does command killing when he feels like it.
Now, imagine a hypothetical scenario where God appears to you and says he's reversing the 10 commandments and you can now do their opposites and not obeying this instruction would be a sin. Would you?


2. God commands something because it is right:

This implies that there is something above God. How? God commanding something because it is right means he cannot command what is wrong, hence he is obliged by such circumstance. If God could never at some point command what he pleases, it means God like us is obliged to a moral standard and is thus below it. It means morality is what God has just discovered and uses. It is not right because he commands it, he commands it because it is right. This makes God superfluous or unnecessary with regards to the grand scope of morality. It means if God did not ever exist, morality would still exist because it is independent of God's command.



Your thoughts?

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