Are We Really Free-morals Beings Or Actually Puppets In God’s Hands? - Religion - Nairaland
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Ese Walter Denounces Jesus, Says She No Longer Believes In God / The Madness Of "Doing": Are We Morally Free Or Mental Puppets? / Life- A Structuring Tool In God's Hands Pt1 (2) (3) (4)
| Are We Really Free-morals Beings Or Actually Puppets In God’s Hands? by Tonyet1(m): 12:43pm On Apr 21, 2011 |
Are we really free-morals beings or Puppets In God’s hands? Puppet: A puppet is an inanimate object or representational figure animated or manipulated by a puppeteer. It is used in puppetry, a play or a presentation that is a very ancient form of theatre. Had someone told me I will author this thread (either right or wrong) and finally bring it for discussion…Obliged I would not have. And then intuitively, I began to believe that God creating the heaven and earth was likened to a grand puppeteer building the stage for a grand play based on a script he hand wrote. 5days of manless creations obviously connoted 5days of heightened anticipation by *celestial beings (pls note the * I will revisit it) waiting for the eventual kickoff of the 6th day – creation of the puppets. Tonye-t, what makes you think we are puppets?, if the characteristics and attributes from the above definitions are anything to go by when related with the biblical man, then we are, sure I am. Lets analyse this characteristics before we begin the bible expedition. Characteristics of the puppet: 1. Before the insertion of the puppeteers’ hand, a puppet is nothing but an inanimate object, isn’t it? (do you recall the clayey man?- Adam) 2. In some cases, these puppets could be built to resemble the figure of the puppeteer(s), isn’t it? (do you recall the phrase: “let us make man in our own image and likeness”?) 3. The puppet is eventually animated or manipulated by the puppeteer isn’t it? ( do you recall the phrase: “ and the Lord breathe into man . . .and he became a living being”?) 4. And the animated puppet is finally brought to the stage to play (recall the first stage – Eden) Now, the mind-boggling quest, who writes a play? Sure the puppeteer! Now if God takes the place of this puppeteer (a grand one for respect sake), then ought i say HE KNEW ABOUT THE FALL OF ADAM AND EVE |
| Re: Are We Really Free-morals Beings Or Actually Puppets In God’s Hands? by Sweetnecta: 1:50pm On Apr 21, 2011 |
your master; the devil should have told you about the above, since he told you where he doesn't live or what he doesn't do in waylaying man. after all, he told you that a man is one of your three Gods. he also told you that your father God did not know the future, as He showed regrets in the actions of what He created; man competing with Him. i wonder how you can live in your skin now that you asking if God should not have known that Adam and Eve will err, fall as you call it? the devil who tormented your human God in the wilderness should inform you about the things you are asking. that same devil tested him 3 times more and even became one of his disciples, conning him so much so that he had to yell on peter 'get behind me, satan' should be your leader here informing you as you have made God into puppeteer! |
| Re: Are We Really Free-morals Beings Or Actually Puppets In God’s Hands? by JeSoul(f): 2:32pm On Apr 21, 2011 |
Tonye-t:If God is omniscient, then yes He did. You're heading in this direction? - http://www.gotquestions.org/if-God-knew.html |
| Re: Are We Really Free-morals Beings Or Actually Puppets In God’s Hands? by Image123(m): 2:49pm On Apr 21, 2011 |
I believe we're free moral beings, depends on the angle one's looking from you know? |
| Re: Are We Really Free-morals Beings Or Actually Puppets In God’s Hands? by Tonyet1(m): 5:25pm On Apr 21, 2011 |
@ Image123, The only time i might want to believe that is when you give clear reasons why you think so. Just sure u wont tell me that some pastor made you think so. @ Jesoul, Sissy, hope 'em northern brodaz didnt invade this citadel to moda our threads after Jega's annoucement.  Really say i appreciate the link provided. . .just when i needed it! And to add. . . How come christian folks are made to believe we are free-moral beings, that we are free to make our choices and decisions. while yet we flip thru' the pages of Proverbs 16:4 which says The LORD has made everything for his own purposes, even the wicked for a day of disaster. Mind-boggling quest #2: Who made the wicked guys too? Its simple! Just like some puppets were designed to play the bad guy, while others play the good guys, the value of a good script is deemed good when every character maintains their role. |
| Re: Are We Really Free-morals Beings Or Actually Puppets In God’s Hands? by JeSoul(f): 6:18pm On Apr 21, 2011 |
Tonye-t:Lol. So far they are behaving themselves. Cannot say the same for the politics section tho  Tonye-t: You're most welcome my brother. On the free-will bit. I believe its a bit more complex than God simply pulling the strings . . . I believe that God is the God of the impossible to human beings. And that applying pure logic in this scenario might be the equivalent of a handicapped man trying to compete in a decathlon. I believe that somehow, God is able to 1 pull the strings as He wishes, and work everything towards the fruition of His will, but yet at the same time 2 we are also able to freely choose. How this works exactly? beats me. Because I know we choose and determine the course of our lives (no one forced you to marry your wife abi? or go to school? or eat breakfast this morning?  ), yet at the same time, He has a grand scheme as stated in the scriptures, an end game to which all things are working and flowing towards. I know this defies logic, but if God is omniscient and omnipotent, doesn't that by itself defy this logic we want to subject Him to? |
| Re: Are We Really Free-morals Beings Or Actually Puppets In God’s Hands? by Enigma(m): 7:02pm On Apr 21, 2011 |
^^^ Some clever people call it antinomy. See e.g. https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-477833.32.html#msg6382869 |
| Re: Are We Really Free-morals Beings Or Actually Puppets In God’s Hands? by DeepSight(m): 7:08pm On Apr 21, 2011 |
Perhaps we are all a part of Divine Self-Expression. If that is the case, then it is the divinity within YOU that takes free divine volitions. Not necessarily a divinity outside of you. |
| Re: Are We Really Free-morals Beings Or Actually Puppets In God’s Hands? by JeSoul(f): 8:03pm On Apr 21, 2011 |
Enigma: clever people lol. I'm just being introduced to the 'official' term. Thanks!Deep Sight:You have come again. You do realize the OP is asking/speaking within the christian/biblical context? |
| Re: Are We Really Free-morals Beings Or Actually Puppets In God’s Hands? by Enigma(m): 8:09pm On Apr 21, 2011 |
| Re "clever people": abi, now as dem like big big words so! |
| Re: Are We Really Free-morals Beings Or Actually Puppets In God’s Hands? by DeepSight(m): 8:17pm On Apr 21, 2011 |
JeSoul: Yes madam, I do. That however does not constrain my desire or freedom to share my random thoughts on the subject. Cheers, Jesoul. Grrrrrrrr. |
| Re: Are We Really Free-morals Beings Or Actually Puppets In God’s Hands? by JeSoul(f): 8:21pm On Apr 21, 2011 |
Deep Sight:Of course it doesn't. It certainly doesn't. Enigma:Ehen now, that's the way it goes |
| Re: Are We Really Free-morals Beings Or Actually Puppets In God’s Hands? by Image123(m): 5:17pm On Apr 22, 2011 |
@Tonyet Puppet: A puppet is an inanimate object or representational figure animated or manipulated by a puppeteer. They never argue. They have no crude views about art. They have no private lives.The bolded above already prove to us that we are not puppets, neither is God a puppeteer. Although there may be a thin line between life and death, and between love and hate. It's needful to STATE that life is not death, neither is love hate. To the thrust of your question anyway, the Bible is many times clear on the point that we are free moral agents with our lives to live and our choices to make. Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: We are all free to choose. It really depends on what you want and how much you want it. It's like someone/student hopes to study medicine. He's told of the criteria: to have some credits in o'level exams including Biology, to have up to ABC score in sat/jamb, to spend 6-7 years at med school etc, then he'll be certified a doctor. He has a choice to work hard in his poor biology, ace his o'levels and jamb, spend 7years+ X in med school etc, and he'll be certified a doctor. Or he can go on complaining about the 6-3-3-4 educational system, drop out of high school, lament on being a puppet, the rigidity of educational curriculum, the prejudice of having to take exams, and how nature hasn't favoured him. It's basically the same thing between man and God. We are here on earth. We want heaven, whether on earth or in the after-life. God has shown us the Way. Every one can go through that Way, or we can decide not to. But it's good to know that if we decide not to follow the Way, we can't have heaven. If you don't go to medical school, you can't be a Doctor. there's nothing unfair or manipulating about that. I don't want a dropout treating my sick/weak folks. Every one has his/her chance to believe in God, and we should take advantage of that chance. How come christian folks are made to believe we are free-moral beings, that we are free to make our choices and decisions. while yet we flip thru' the pages of Proverbs 16:4 which saysGod made us all. there's no one born good. We were all wicked, and headed for disaster. But some of us TURNED. Any one of us can turn. How Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. |
| Re: Are We Really Free-morals Beings Or Actually Puppets In God’s Hands? by Tonyet1(m): 1:09pm On Apr 25, 2011 |
JeSoul: Sissy, do you really think so? hmmmm JeSoul: Yeah? Ok Sissy let me tell you what i believe, I used to think forging in the direction that 'we arent free-will beings but puppet's' direction could mean towing the path of 'pure logic' but heck no!. . . Tonye, why do you think so? simple! God himself said so about 'this scenario' - the scenario that 'we are puppets in his program'. Recall : "All things were created for his pleasure" and dont you think this 'all things' include our man's thought system, decisions, choices and actions? Phil. 2:13 - for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. (NIV) Imagine I had to paraphrase this verse in a puppet bible, here is how it might come out Phil. 2:13 - for it is the Grand puppeteer who works in his puppet making them act a will, making them act the acting according to his good script.  JeSoul: Yes! beautiful! and to add. . .I am beginning to believe that the summation and totality of man's will was designed BY GOD to fulfill his own will. JeSoul: Jbabe, look at this; weeks back i brought a puppeteer to play for the kids in my local church and the title was "building little vessels of honour", in this play 3 characters were created (the puppeteer created them, and knew their end from their beginning; Jeremiah 1:5 - before i formed you I knew you, before you came out, i predestined you to be a prophet. . .hmmmm hellooooooo!  ), one by name toyin, who was made to act a good guy who grew up serving God and eventually became a pastor, the second (dayo) was made to grow up living the bad guy and then one day he said to himself (recall it was still the puppeteer speaking thru' dayo ), i would want to give my life to God and he became a child of God and continued in the faith, and then this third guy (bola) grew up in a christian home, got all the attentions and best things life would offer to a child, he grew up and eventually made a choice to serve God ( *recall a choice was made) and then he later derailed to be an occultist (just who was manipulating this bola, i might ask?) and all thru' the story this guy was making several choices and eventually he died a sinner.4 questions we should ask: Who created these puppets? [list] [li]Did the puppeteer have a purpose for creating them? [/li] [li]Did he know their destinations/ fate? [/li] [li]Were they in control of the choices they made? [/li] [li]Did they influence the events of their lives or the grand puppeteer did? [/li][/list] Just when we answer this questions we could really know what God is doing in heaven. |
| Re: Are We Really Free-morals Beings Or Actually Puppets In God’s Hands? by Tonyet1(m): 1:34pm On Apr 25, 2011 |
Enigma, I cannot but appreciate that simple but insightul link. 2 things we should reflect over from that link are: Recall, in that passage Romans. 9:19, Paul illustrated the subject as trying to inquire deep counsel but in a seemingly aggressive manner - 'Why does God yet find fault" only an aggrieved or inquisitive enquirer will ask a question that way. Agree with me that vs. 20 is only a caution consequential to vs. 19. Because here paul had to say "who are you to reply against God" meaning Paul's issue was not in the asking of the question if it had been well asked, but rather in the manner, hence his stern reply.(Keyword: reply against) And to add, I strongly believe our actions were predestined by the play writer. ooopppppps pardon me, ignorant to your stance on the topic i reply. . .just where do you stand? |
| Re: Are We Really Free-morals Beings Or Actually Puppets In God’s Hands? by Tonyet1(m): 1:41pm On Apr 25, 2011 |
Deep sight, Thanks Image123, Read your great post. . .but pls I would love you to pls read the story i told Jesoul and possibly answer the questions. . .and to add. Maybe you might just help out with this scripture Eph. 1:4 - Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. |
| Re: Are We Really Free-morals Beings Or Actually Puppets In God’s Hands? by Tonyet1(m): 2:19pm On Apr 25, 2011 |
To Image123, Would love to respond to your post again Image123: And what if i tell you that this passage you quoted was still part of the script the playwright would want you to come across. Ok! see this analogy. Steven Spielberg screen writes a movie titled My design and in this play everyone keeps to their role, no derails no shortfalls everything perfect as it should be. A guy is named Adam having a wife whom he is taught to call Eve. And then this Steven guy poops out and gives them instruction not to eat garri from a certain pot(recall this line in the def. of the puppeteer - "In some instances the persona of the puppeteer is also an important feature". and then he disappears and manipulates them to eat this garri just so his movie - My Design, will come out perfect. And just later he re[i]poops[/i] and asks them what happened to the pot of garri as if He did not know and drives them away and the story goes on and on and on!Now Image123, tell me you dont believe this things played out in the creation; garden of eden experience and I will say you dont believe God is Omniscient in attribute and nature. |
| Re: Are We Really Free-morals Beings Or Actually Puppets In God’s Hands? by Image123(m): 7:36pm On Apr 26, 2011 |
@Tonye-t I believe just like JeSoul(who everybody's claiming to be their sista, not knowing that she's originally my sista ) that these things are more complex than our logic and reasonings. that's why we pray for grace because we don't know it all. We know in part, even the apostles are seeing through a glass darkly. i sincerely believe that we christians are like God i.e godly, and that ALL THINGS work together for good for us. When we say that, it doesn't mean that everything goes as we've planned it. But that in every situation we find ourselves, we are able to pick something for our betterment, and ultimately for our good. I believe it's the same thing with God, that every situation favours Him, and that ultimately He wins on every side.4 questions we should ask:The distinct thing between us and these puppets/robots is that we are all created in the image of God. The import of this is that we UNDENIABLY have a will. We can actually CHANGE OUR MINDS. It's all over scriptures. What God desires of us is a relationship, He doing His part and we doing our part in unison. the carnal/natural man usually would want to be independent and CAN BE. If one chooses to be independent, he'll suffer for it because there just 2ways; God's way and hell's way, and they are both in the divine blueprint. God has His will, and He desires that it be manifest in earth. that's why we pray 'let Your will be done in earth'. If it would be automatically done like in the puppet/puppeteer scenario, we would not need to pray. All prayer would then be useless. But to find god's will and to align ourselves with it is the best position for us as God's creatures. It's like a doctor-patient relationship, the patient needs the doctor and needs to yield to the doctor's prescriptions for treatment. He may decide to avoid the doctor or disobey the doctor, then he wouldn't get well. Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. There are sometimes when a patient might be forced to the doctor, or refusing treatment. In such a case, he might need be sedated. In such a case, we might argue a forced treatment as it were, but this is not a norm. In the same way, we sometimes see God intervene directly as it were in the lives of some, maybe/usually due to another's prayer. It's visible in some salvation experience, or major decision making to favour His own. But this is not a general thing. there are many sick people who do not seek treatment from the doctor, and who disobey the doctor. The whole world is sick and we need God, and the best we should do is have a good doctor-patient relationship with God. Psalm 40:8 I ;delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart. Like i said, God's will is not forced on man because we have our own will, and can actually DECIDE, or CHANGE OUR MINDS. Look at the scriptures below for instance; Matthew 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son. Matthew 22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. You see hat in this passage, the people exercised their will (they would not come), even though they were called. The kings plan and will was that they should come. this is how Jesus said that the kingdom of God is like. Proverbs 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: Proverbs 1:30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. Proverbs 1:31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices. Proverbs 1:32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them. Proverbs 1:33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil. In Isaiah, God says Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. If it were not possible for us to do these things, God would not require it. It would be inconsistent with His nature. i say it again, if we had no will of our own, but had God running the show, there'll be no need for prayers of any sort. Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: The very good thing is that the consequences and rewards of our choice are laid open before us by God's Word, that's why it sometimes seems as if it's planned/caused by God. Did God have a purpose for creating us? Yes, we were formed to show God's praise. Isaiah 43:21 This people have I formed for myself; they shall show forth my praise. But we don't all show forth this praise, do we? there's punishment for those who do not show forth His praise. When you create or buy something for a particular purpose, and it doesn't fulfil it's purpose, what do you do? Did God know our destinations and fate? Tough question really, because i'll say a shocking unpopular 'not exactly'. God had a plan, a destination or fate for us definitely, but because we have a will, we can actually decide whether to tow that road or not. Exodus 13:17 And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt: It seems obvious that there was no certainty here. We know of God's plan of Cannanland and deliverance from Egypt, but the children of Israel had their part to play. God willed them for Canaan, they all perished in the wilderness, and at many times planned to return to Egypt. Are we in control of the choices we make? Do we influence the events of our lives or God does? It depends, like the doctor-patient relationship. We may be(which in many cases is really the devil). We may put it in God's hands, but He never takes 100% control, the spirit of the child of god is still subject to him. There are still somethings he must decide. God will not all day tell you what to cook, wear, eat, when to sleep, pray, read, study etc. It's not His way or plan. He desires a working and growing relationship, together, fellowship. He seeks communion not dominion. It's evil spirits that tend to dominate and possess people. John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned The abide decision is ours. In His own part, he'll not leave us. But we can actually leave Him which is our wrongcall. Just a 'minute' |
| Re: Are We Really Free-morals Beings Or Actually Puppets In God’s Hands? by Image123(m): 9:25pm On Apr 26, 2011 |
@Tonye-t 2Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honor, and some to dishonor. 2Timothy 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. We are in a race, a press for God's Kingdom, for Heaven. It's like what people do when there's a vacancy in an organisation. The job description, criteria and qualification is published. this is what is used in the organisation's choosing. If you meet the standards, you're qualified, chosen as it were. But you still need to apply, and not to disqualify yourself but prepare well for the interview. Eph. 1:4 - Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. Do remember that many are called but few are chosen. he actually calls many at different times and places, but chooses few. The few chosen meet His criteria that's why. What is the criteria? It's repentance and faith(Of course grace is God's). For whoso confesses and forsakes his sin WILL have mercy. God is true to His Word. It's like when the organisation already had a plan/blueprint, they already chose/qualified people with a set of qualities ever before they released an advert. they already had it in mind that they wouldn't employ people without these qualities. God loved us all, and chose us all in Christ. He so loved the world, Christ died for us all not a set of people. But it is those that endure to the end that would be saved, those that endure to the end. We've all been chosen and loved even as sinners. We can choose to be vessels unto honour, and available for the Master's use. And what if i tell you that this passage you quoted was still part of the script the playwright would want you to come across. Ok! see this analogy. Steven Spielberg screen writes a movie titled My design and in this play everyone keeps to their role, no derails no shortfalls everything perfect as it should be. A guy is named Adam having a wife whom he is taught to call Eve. And then this Steven guy poops out and gives them instruction not to eat garri from a certain pot(recall this line in the def. of the puppeteer - "In some instances the persona of the puppeteer is also an important feature"In Adam's case, he's not taught to call his wife Eve. He does it on his own. And god did not manipulate Adam and Eve to eat anything. the Bible records that satan/the serpent deceived them. they didn't have to be deceived i.e fall for the deceit. Jesus, the last Adam was also tempted, he overcame. Adam was built to overcome, he could easily have, his test was so cheap. Actually, he wasn't even deceived but willfully disobedient(1Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.). God's ultimate plan was that we should have dominion over all things (and i many times think also to replace the devil and his boys). For these, we are still on course and it would be done. but it'll be done by those that are saved. Now Image123, tell me you dont believe this things played out in the creation; garden of eden experience and I will say you dont believe God is Omniscient in attribute and nature.Adam and Eve were built/created to pass the garden of Eden experience, it's unfortunate maybe that they literally had a mind of their own. God is omniscient. He's also just and righteous in attribute and nature. We do not fully understand God. What's the picture of God's omniscience in scriptures? And what's the picture of His omnipotence and omnipresence. A balanced view of these may give us a renewed view on His omniscience. |
| Re: Are We Really Free-morals Beings Or Actually Puppets In God’s Hands? by petres007(m): 9:41pm On Apr 26, 2011 |
Loving this topic! Tonye, you for give the thread one big grammar name like: The Sovereignty of God |
| Re: Are We Really Free-morals Beings Or Actually Puppets In God’s Hands? by Tonyet1(m): 12:35pm On Apr 27, 2011 |
Petres 007, how 'bout this? "Soverignity of the Grand Puppeteer"  . . .thanks too. . .just make sure you add your view on the topic Image123, Brother as much interesting as your persona' so your postulates trails . Thanks altogether but let see this . . .You must understand that[b] in a play, what you see, listen, believe and eventually act is what the puppeteer wants you to. This is a fact![/b]. Lets see it like this. . .I write a play that involves a guy called Image123, and in this play I want him to see, listens, believe and act certain things but i want him to think he is solely responsible for this actions *afterall i am the one who employed Image123 to act that role, so he must do as i say whereas in essence I have a script and Image123's role is TO FULFILL MY PLANS AS IT IS IN THE SCRIPT. Now lets that this discourse bit by bit with scriptures, We have so much divisions in the world today, do you know research has it that 80% cause of this problem is because we are made to see ourselves differently better still parallel. Different people would do things differently. . .the word Aye could mean " i love you" in a [man A's] language whereas to yet another, say [man B] it could mean "I will kill you" imagine what happens if man A speaks it to man B. On one side we are made to believe Man is the architect of this problem. . .is this notion right one might ask? Especially when we go back and study who actually orchestrated this division. Genesis 11: 6 - And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 11: 8 - So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth and they left off to build the city. Without mincing words, one should actually agree that God is against the UNITY OF MAN, but when we are asked today, the first thing that poops from our orals is the 'THE DEVIL IS AT FAULT FOR MAN'S DIVISIONS TODAY' failing to accept the Puppeteer - Puppet r/ship thus failing to also realize that robbing God of this honor means trampling on his "SOLE ACHIEVEMENT & ABSOLUTE SOVEREIGNITY" Better leave my Jesoul, that babe is my sister  , even though she would not want to be addressed by our surname but if you must know her real names are Jennifer Tonye O. while my dad gave me Tonye Tonye O . |
| Re: Are We Really Free-morals Beings Or Actually Puppets In God’s Hands? by Tonyet1(m): 1:04pm On Apr 27, 2011 |
cont'd We both must agree that the words in the bible are STATEMENTS, and as such should be seen from that perspective alone. I'll quote a scripture and we will butress it bit by bit Col. 1:16 - For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him For by him all things were created - only our intentional naivety will want to limit this STATEMENT to mean that God created somethings not all things, because if we agree he created all things that means Life in Totality and the Existence therein were created by this God. things in heaven and on earth - what are those things in heaven?; you and I know that heaven symbolizes a place of authority, rulership, angels, thrones, *worship and the lot? and earth talks of the existence of man, physical life and the absoluteness of their existence which could mean good, bad, love, hate, courage, fear and so on. Thus if we accept God as the creator of this heaven and earth therefore OUGHT WE SAY GOD IS THE CREATOR OF ALL THESE THINGS? visible and invisible - I could understand this phrase to mean everything in heaven and on earth that we can see and not see, those tangible and things intangible WERE CREATED AND CONTROLLED BY THIS GOD whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities - com'on Image123, lets do some mind puzzling on this very strong declarative verse, lets think of some thrones, powers, rulers, authorities Ogboni, Illuminati, Islamism, Judaism, Buddhism, wizardry and wicca. Recall that bible didnot say God created only good thrones; good powers; good rulers; good authorities. . .but straightly it said thrones (meaning it could be good or bad) as well as powers, rulers, authorities. all things were created by him AND FOR HIM - hmmm i guess you' should just applaud how bible makes things simple to be understood. this is no logic or sensual reasoning, this is pure bible, this is pure knowledge from God's spirit . Dont you just love it how this verse crowned it all with the phrase AND FOR HIM all things were created.?Doesnt this tell you only a grand master with intentions will create everything for himself alone. Com'on? |
| Re: Are We Really Free-morals Beings Or Actually Puppets In God’s Hands? by Image123(m): 8:01pm On Apr 27, 2011 |
@Tonye-t Where have you been, do hope you've been 'chilling with God in Christ'. You must understand that in a play, what you see, listen, believe and eventually act is what the puppeteer wants you to. This is a fact!. Lets see it like this. . .I write a play that involves a guy called Image123, and in this play I want him to see, listens, believe and act certain things but i want him to think he is solely responsible for this actions *afterall i am the one who employed Image123 to act that role, so he must do as i say whereas in essence I have a script and Image123's role is TO FULFILL MY PLANS AS IT IS IN THE SCRIPT.It's necessary for us, as believers, to live in the Spirit and to RIGHTLY divide the word of truth. To know that the devil also uses that Word and could be pretty skilled at using it, he uses it more than we do, he's studied FAR longer than we have. It becomes compulsory for us to rely on God's Spirit to interpret the Word to us, and not our brain or worse still the devil. Life is not a play. Let's see it the way God shows us in His Word, not to 'see it like this'. God is not deceiving us into any thinking. His Word enlightens us. Although God wants us to fulfill His plans(because that's the best path for us), we do not always fulfill His plans. Hebrews 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Hebrews 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. Their are some people who cause grief to God because they do not 'fulfill his plans as it is in the script'. Think also of Eli 1Samuel 2:30 Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me forever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honor me I will honor, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed. And of Nineveh Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. We have so much divisions in the world today, do you know research has it that 80% cause of this problem is because we are made to see ourselves differently better still parallel. Different people would do things differently. . .the word Aye could mean " i love you" in a [man A's] language whereas to yet another, say [man B] it could mean "I will kill you" imagine what happens if man A speaks it to man B.Please next time when the devil brings up scriptures, please do learn to hit him back with scriptures, even any scriptures. That's the way we overcome and i'm praying you would overcome even in this. More like, it is written, John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And Jeremiah 32:39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me forever, for the good of them, and of their children after them: And Acts 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 1Corinthians 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. Eph 4:3 Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling. Philippians 2:2 Fulfill ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. Philippians 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. Philippians 2:4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Evidently, God desires and tells us to be united not divided whether Jew or Greek, or bond or free. It's the same way the the devil subtly tried to paint God in a bad light to Eve in the garden until she fell for it. In Genesis 11, God said the people were united, yes united, but united to disobey Him. It's not every kind of unity that is right. Are demons not united, are gang robbers not united? Some people united to go and kill Christians the other day. Do you want that kind of unity? God had said "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."Genesis 1:28 Genesis 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. Genesis 9:7 And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein. From the start, God didn't plan for Adam to remain forever in Eden, but to 'recreate' Eden all over the earth, fill the whole earth, multiply and subdue it. IT was basically the same command He gave Noah after the flood that wiped out the others and left Noah's family as only survivors in the earth. But these guys in Genesis 11 had other myopic plans. Gen 11:2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. Gen 11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. They had a plan directly opposite to God's plan. God said spread, they said "let's stay together". And they were actually making progress with their plans. If we project couple hundreds of years later, if they kept to their plans, they'll probably have grown in population and start to adjust by expanding bit by bit. That wasn't what God wanted. It's like in a class you have these group of students that are very troublesome and notorious, and can almost bring down the class/school if left to it. The normal idea is for the teacher to separate the trouble makers before the cause big trouble. And most times, when you separate them, you'll actually get some of them to come good in school work and co. it's basically the same principle God used here. Of course he knew they couldn't build up to Heaven where He was, but in their unity, they cold next time decide something more stewpid and damning. God just wiped out the human race for doing stewpeed things, remember. So He said Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. Gen 11:8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. You see that in this case, God's Ultimate will was fulfilled but not 'AS IT IS IN THE SCRIPT'. They people could have continued in their journeying/spreading from the east to all the earth 'jejely' as in the script. but they showed small stubborn head before going. like in the doctor-patient relationship, we can be cooperating patients, or sedated patients, or disobedient patients. unfortunately we have many patients who stubborn would not even go to the doctor but die on their own when they could have been healed, and had Life. A similar thing happened with the early Christians. God said "Go into all the world and preach to every creature" and that "ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." But every body stayed in Jerusalem enjoying themselves, and sharing testimony and distributing food until persecution came. Act 8:4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word. Truly, all things work together for good to them that love God. the early disciples went and did the will of God like Jonah, but not everybody does that. Some people continue in obstinacy until they are destroyed. Col. 1:16 - For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for himCertainly, ALL things were CREATED by Him and for Him. He had His purposes for creating all that He created. But always remember that things can be abused, misused, disused, or put to right use. I might make soap for washing plates. If someone else begins to use it to wash his car or to cook or to serve as fuel, it'll be a misuse. i might get kerosene to cook, someone may pick it up to fuel his car or to set fire on his enemy. I simply planned to use it to cook. All God has made were for good, holy and righteous purposes but Satan majorly has employed them to perpetuate other purposes, or has form fakes to deceive the gullible. And please note that word 'created' is different from 'made' in it's root. God created from nothing. Man doesn't create in this sense, we make. like i can't say "all things are created by God my bag, my computer, my shoe, my freezer" God didn't make my handset. My body cream is not for Him. that's not the sense in which all things are by Him and for Him. We as human beings also make. We are created in His image, with ability to make and to choose. And sometimes we make things that displease Him. Exodus 32:8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshiped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. Psalm 119:126 It is time for thee, LORD, to work: for[b] they have made void thy law[/b]. Romans 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, God ha given us so much, we're like His biggest investment as it were, but we've misused, disused and abused this privilege. We've forgotten God when He desires that we should remember him and to do things in remembrance of Him. But we all have a will, and we can always come back like the prodigal son. We can always come, whosoever will, and drink of the water of life FREELY. |
| Re: Are We Really Free-morals Beings Or Actually Puppets In God’s Hands? by Tonyet1(m): 2:28pm On Apr 28, 2011 |
Image123, You are still not getting the point. . .firstly, this has nothing to do with the devil getting a hold of my heart and trying to test me with questions to alter my faith nor belief-system. . .never! Rather, this has more to do with allowing the spirit of God in me express the truth about the true nature of MY FATHER. . .which is the primary reason why we have the spirit of God in the first place. Hope you dont need scriptures on this again?! True change is likened to a door leading to a destination or better still one putting on clear googles to see things clearer and "newer", we either have the choice to be unbaise and see scriptures for ourselves like a berean thus going through the door or choosing to remain at the doormat making sarcasms. . . the later has never taken our faith anywhere more than constant bashing and mockery from those outside the faith, because the moment we fail to address issues extensively , one smart guy outside will do so and eventually come out with "divine facts" and end up calling you and I hypocrites. E.g: The papals (symbolic of the Christians) outrightly condemned a smart unbeliever (galileo) for claiming the earth was spherical, when asked to defend their claim they came up with several misunderstood passages to butress their egocentric fallasy. Years along the lane, their claims were faulted. Why? was it that the bible lied or some educated ignoramuses deceived themselves and a large innocent/gullible christian community?. Today new christian movements are coming up with passages from the same biblos to counter their old claims. |
| Re: Are We Really Free-morals Beings Or Actually Puppets In God’s Hands? by Tonyet1(m): 3:00pm On Apr 28, 2011 |
cont'd Image123, Let me tell you what I believe 1. I believe that there is a Supreme spirit who controls other spirits 2. I believe that the totality of all these spirares whether "superus" or "demis" are a product of spiritus grandis. Inotherwords, all spirits are an extension of the God of the Spirits. ( Num.27:16) 3. I believe that what gives the grandis attribute to this God (Our Father) is that he absolutely knows all things (omniscient) and controls all powers (omnipotent). 4. I believe these spirares are given the characteristics of thinking thoughts for themselves, making wills for themselves, taking actions for themselves. But then, all these characteristics in totality emanates from their creator - God 5. God ceases to become Omniscient the day He lacks knowledge of what his own extensions do. Inotherwords, God's omniscience is that HE KNOWS EVERYTHINGS DONE BY HIS CREATORS, nothing ever happens behind him. 6. And that all these said means that God knew about the fall of Man, because they couldnt have done what they did without his pre-knowledge ( One of God's nature is that He knows the end from the beginning) and that severally He has come up to tell us we are products of his pleasure, yea HIS OWN VERY PLEASURE |
| Re: Are We Really Free-morals Beings Or Actually Puppets In God’s Hands? by Image123(m): 1:25am On Apr 30, 2011 |
You are still not getting the point. . .firstly, this has nothing to do with the devil getting a hold of my heart and trying to test me with questions to alter my faith nor belief-system. . .never!Really? 1Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. Matthew 26:33 Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended. i wouldn't argue much with you. But you shouldn't embrace a 'tweaked perception' of God's omniscience at the detriment of His revealed attributes e.g of Justice, Mercy, Faithfulness, Love, Righteousness etc. We are created for His pleasure but the bible is quite clear that we do not all fulfill His pleasure. Psalm 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee. Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. Ezekiel 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye. Psalm 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: Luke 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, |
| Re: Are We Really Free-morals Beings Or Actually Puppets In God’s Hands? by Tonyet1(m): 2:23pm On May 20, 2011 |
Hi Image, dont you think it appears rather appalling the way we christians live our lives with a defensive - defensive attitude. Christianity is a movement that allows us to reason and make thoughts with the spirit of God in us to guide our reasoning Rom. 12:2 - "Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will." and not to live our lives based on what some pastor tells us about our Father. For instance, Image how would you feel that someone told u stories about your father till the day he died, whether it was true or false what was told you; you dont know. Yet your dad gives you the same if not a bigger access to commune with him one on one. Besides, all i have quoted has been coming from the same bible that we both read. The thread is not to counter what i said but give me your reasons why you feel we are free-moral beings with your scriptures to back because i believe the contrary. And to add, almost all your usage of the term "pleasure" in the passages you quoted are different in greek translations from the "pleasure" as used in Revelations. Check it out! |
| Re: Are We Really Free-morals Beings Or Actually Puppets In God’s Hands? by Tonyet1(m): 2:44pm On May 20, 2011 |
Case study: (GWT) John 9 1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. 2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but so that God could show what he can do on him [/b].Now pls lets try and understand the aforelisted passages closely Someone was born a male and was expected to be like everyother child was, but in this case he was born blind, inotherwords, will i be speaking herey if i said that "he was procreated and destined to be a blind vessel". ?. This tells you that if he had the chance to make a choice like a free-moral being as you think, then he sure would have chosen to come with sights from birth, but no he simply couldnt! WHY? because His creator (owner) destined him to come that way (blind). The question is why would his creator destine him to come out blind? The answer was still provided in the same passage - "so that God could show what he can do on him" And at a certain time, the script provided that Jesus should pass by and open his eyes. And yet someone says we aint puppets in God's hands?  |
| Re: Are We Really Free-morals Beings Or Actually Puppets In God’s Hands? by Image123(m): 11:15pm On May 22, 2011 |
@Tonye-t, Hi Hi Image, What do you mean by defensive attitude or is it defensive-defensive attitude. You've asked a question, and i believe you expect answer right? By the way, the normal christian is supposed to defend more than attack, our weapons of warfare are more defense than attack inclined, i suppose because we have the victory already. Christianity is a movement that allows us to reason and make thoughts with the spirit of God in us to guide our reasoning The Spirit of God is supposed to be our reasoning actually, not just guide it. Christianity is not reason-centred, it is greater than reasoning, it is spiritual. and not to live our lives based on what some pastor tells us about our Father. And what if in this case i take you to be the 'some pastor' telling me something queer about our Father? For instance, Image how would you feel that someone told u stories about your father till the day he died, whether it was true or false what was told you; you dont know. Yet your dad gives you the same if not a bigger access to commune with him one on one. It seems you've been quoting more scenarios than scripture. BTW, i'm yet to quote the koran either. The thread is not to counter what i said but give me your reasons why you feel we are free-moral beings with your scriptures to back because i believe the contrary. For another instance, i'll show from the example of Jesus our perfect example that we are free moral agents. Jesus was to be crucified according to the will of God, but He could actually have something different from God's will if he chose so. Matthew 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. Matthew 26:44 And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words. And to add, almost all your usage of the term "pleasure" in the passages you quoted are different in greek translations from the "pleasure" as used in Revelations. Check it out! And what's the significance in this? The point i passed across was that men do not always do God's will(call it plan, pleasure, purpose, agenda). God is grieved with men, displeased with men, regrets creating men, weeps for men. You don't weep or get displeased with someone who'se doing what you planned he should do. Case study: All these boil down to understanding God's philosophy of 'all join'. Everything works together for good. Like yorubas say "aye o pare?" Some will say 'if life brings you lemon instead of oranges, make lemonade". It's a vital principle every believer should learn i.e Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. It means nothing takes God to confusion, or by surprise. God is willing to show what He can do on any man, whether he be blind or can see. If one surrenders to God, He'll be glorified. If one hardens himself, God'll still be glorified, it's a win-win for Him. That's what makes it wise that we are on His side. God wanted to use the Israelites that left Egypt, God wanted to use Eli's house, God wanted to use Saul. He couldn't but He chose others and He was still glorified, those people lost out. Numbers 14:30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I swore to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun. 1Samuel 2:30 Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me forever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honor me I will honor, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed. 1Sa 13:13 And Samuel said to Saul, Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the LORD thy God, which he commanded thee: for now would the LORD have established thy kingdom upon Israel forever. 1Sa 13:14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the LORD hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the LORD commanded thee. Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! |
| Re: Are We Really Free-morals Beings Or Actually Puppets In God’s Hands? by 5solas(m): 10:52pm On May 25, 2011 |
Great post, Tonye. I think Man cannot rightly be described as a puppet because his actions are not coerced and are done contingently ; though he can do nothing other than what God foreknows and ordains. [Quote] 26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. 27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 28 [b]For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.[/b]Acts 4:26-28. [/Quote] Also, it seems dishonouring to liken God to a puppeteer. I hope you don't degenerate to seeing Him as evil. However, I am happy for you, if you gained your understanding of God's Sovereignty,Omnipotence and Foreknowledge from this similitude. Perhaps you are safer with this similitude: [Quote] 1 ¶ The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. 3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. Jeremiah 18: 1-6 [/Quote] |
| Re: Are We Really Free-morals Beings Or Actually Puppets In God’s Hands? by Obalende: 7:15pm On May 27, 2011 |
Image123 wrote: Any one of us can turnImage123, I see you are working for darkness by propagating a false teaching. Jesus predicted only few will be saved and go to heaven with majority may go to hell. God may allow the god of this world to blind people that they might not believe. Jesus said no one can come to the Father unless God draws him. I predict only those in the book of life will be saved. Its time we preached what I think is the true gospel. @5solas Man is a puppet in Gods hands. Mans actions are coerced by either God or the devil, such actions emanating to what has been put in his mind by God or the devil; the mind likened to a battlefield. "Thine people shall be willing in the day of thine power" the bible says. |
| Re: Are We Really Free-morals Beings Or Actually Puppets In God’s Hands? by 5solas(m): 9:42pm On May 27, 2011 |
Obalende: Well, I won't argue the point,for now. If you read my post again, you will notice I was suffering from the antinomy . |
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