Crises all over the place have been affiliated to Islam and people over the world believe it's muslims who are responsible for thi religious crises.Islam does not in any way preach violence neither does it encourage killing people in the name of religion. infact one of the greatest sins to commit is sheding of blood.the blood does not only apply to human blood but other creatures. we must shed the blood of any living creatures for no just cause.

To know the extent to which islam does not support killin,a muslim(peace keeper) must not kill any animals that he does not require to use. All animals was created to the benefit of man but this does not mean that we should kill them any how because it's created for man's use.It's a great sin to kill.

I'm saying all this because people believe it's islam that's causing the violence all over the world but i'll tell you that there is no religion that took peace the way it'suppose to. Let me explain little abot history on the emergence of violence in correlation with islam.

Prophet comes to this world with the signs as tool to preach to people as make them believe in the word of God.Moses came with miraclelous Stick,this stick can do anything you can think of. To cut it short,the unbelieve in his time were full of mytical power of miracles. In order to defeit this people and make people believe moses,he has to use his stick to perform the same as signs from God.
This thing continues to the time of Jesus,the only thing he can do then to convince people about God is to perform miracles by healing some sick. he does this whenever God want him to and people were convinced that he's truely from God.

When prophet mohammed came,the unbelievers then were warriors and powerful men.they wld fight to achieve their aims and that was why prophet's era were a war era. tell me,if you are giving an 2 options,either to worship ur king in ur village and remain in the village and worship God but out of the village. You're the type that does not want to go out of the village and didnt want to be an idol worshiper,it's going to be a fight to finish.

I'll wld be better to fight than to leave the work of God undone.if Jesus does not accept to heal those sick people then maybe he wld not have had the opportunity to preach God gosple to them because they wld not even listen to what he has to say.The same goes to Moses and others.

Prophet Muhammed has never preach violence and crises and no book of God has reveal it. He was faced with serious fight in his time and let me tell you in all the wars he's face with,he's never kill a soul believe it or not.

Find out what is responsible for all the religious crises going on everywhere instead of blaming an innocent soul. This war wld continue till the end of time because people are not ready to accept God as their God and the believer wld not fold their hands and watch the unbeliever to conquer this world.They have been doing it right 4rm the days of Adam and promise to conquer the world with their evil deed. Great islamic warrior wld not allow it continue,instead they wld evice all means to fight it to finish.

Let me and you stand and watch because there is nothing we can,this is wat the coming of Jesus is coming to attend to. Saving people(peace keepers;not christians) from this evil men.

Islam wld conquer the world when Jesus arrives again.People(christians) wld be confused as to what to practice because the Jesus they're expecting is not a christian. When you refer to followers of Jesus as christians,wld it be wise to call the master whom they followed the same thing. there are lots yet to talk about

we don tell them tire, dem no gree hear ooooooooooo


Maa Salam

babs787:

we don tell them tire, them no gree hear ooooooooooo


Maa Salam

it is not a matter of telling us and we no dey hia, it is a simple matter. Can you kidnly explain to us why most predominantly muslim nations are embroiled in violence?

Why are religious riots in Nigeria confined mainly to the north where we have a preponderance of muslims?

why did we see no violence when Dan Brown came out with his blasphemous book that has since become a movie and yet a whole day of rage was announced for Danish cartoons? Why is there still a Fatwa on the head of Salman Rushdie since 1989 for a mere work of fiction?

No one is interested in maligning islam. there is no point yelling at the top of ur lungs how peaceful you are only to get enraged at the drop of a pin and start looking for the next innocent soul to kill! No one needs to debate this, islam is showing the whole world what they really mean by their bogus claim of peace!

Perhaps you can explain what kind of peace prevails in Iraq, gaza, Sudan, lebanon, islamabad e.t.c.

In islam, it's not a sin to lie, so, i'm not surprised that some people like this poster do say justice outdoors, but indoors, they preach violence (in the form of jihad).
  There's not greater lying religion than islam, and the foundation of islam is deceit and wickedness. What do you expect from a religion that was founded by an evil murderer like Muhammad?.
   Check this out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TsDmHhzWks
                             and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMc3XMB6ZZg
                             and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wPglHZQf-0
                             and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?search=&mode=related&v=8uBZGCItQm8
                             and many, many more asociated with the evil of islam: you'll find them there

@doyenn,

doyenn:

Crises all over the place have been affiliated to Islam and people over the world believe it's muslims who are responsible for thi religious crises.Islam does not in any way preach violence neither does it encourage killing people in the name of religion,

Please, could you explain the following:

(a) Where do these Muslims get their inspiration to go on rampage and kill people?
(b) Would you deny that those people are Muslims and they have been acting in accordance to the teachings of Islam?

doyenn:

To know the extent to which islam does not support killin,a muslim(peace keeper) must not kill any animals that he does not require to use. All animals was created to the benefit of man but this does not mean that we should kill them any how because it's created for man's use.It's a great sin to kill.

Right. Please I want to know if Muhammad committed a great sin in the following (and if he did not, then please explain yourself better with regards to the highlighted assertions you made):

Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 3, Bk 29, # 55:
Narrated Aisha: Allah's Apostle said, "Five kinds of animals are harmful and could be killed in the
Haram (Sanctuary). These are: the crow, the kite, the scorpion, the mouse and the rabid dog."

Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 4, Bk 54, # 540:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: Allah's Apostle ordered that the dogs should be killed.

This is why I deeply feel that you really don't know what you're trying to convey and have only been posting what they've told you.

doyenn:

I'm saying all this because people believe it's islam that's causing the violence all over the world but i'll tell you that there is no religion that took peace the way it'suppose to.

I should hardly be making any comments here - please try and explain what is going on in the links offered by Vicjustice.

Perhaps you may begin to understand how your Muslim brothers fan the embers of Islamic hate against the Jews by pure fabrication after watching this link: (
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7R_YZiRlPs).

Pity the poor woman who has been following one such fabricator - she could be forgiven for being a simpleton who swallows everything her husband fabricates without carefully checking them out. And that is just a microcosm of the steady diet of propaganda among Muslims.

After having been convicted in court, sheik Khan says that the prophet Muhammad "stands convicted today for preaching from the Qur'an!" (he tried to make himself Muhammad for having been convicted for his hate speech).

Quran tells Muslims to slay the unbelievers wherever they find them (2:191), do not befriend them (3:28), fight them and show them harshness (9:123), and smite their heads (47:4).
Let us pause for a moment and take a second look at Islam. Can these really be the words of God? Was Muhammad really a messenger of God or was he a crazy man, like Hitler, who used the religious sentiment of the gullible to conquer, to dominate and to have an endless supply for his narcissistic cravings?

Islam is a cult created by a psychopath. It cannot be reformed. It must be eradicated. Islam must be eradicated not because the Quran says Earth is flat or the shooting stars are missiles that Allah fires at the Jinns who climb the heaven to eavesdrop on the conversation of the exalted assembly. These stupid tales could even amuse us. Islam must go because it teaches hate, it orders killing of non-Muslims, it denigrates women and it violates the human rights. Islam must go not because it is false but because it is destructive, because it is dangerous; a threat to peace and security of humankind. With the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction in Islamic countries, Islam has become a serious and a real threat to the survival of our civilization

wakiri:

Quran tells Muslims to slay the unbelievers wherever they find them (2:191), do not befriend them (3:28), fight them and show them harshness (9:123), and smite their heads (47:4).
Let us pause for a moment and take a second look at Islam. Can these really be the words of God? Was Muhammad really a messenger of God or was he a crazy man, like Hitler, who used the religious sentiment of the gullible to conquer, to dominate and to have an endless supply for his narcissistic cravings?

Islam is a cult created by a psychopath. It cannot be reformed. It must be eradicated. Islam must be eradicated not because the Quran says Earth is flat or the shooting stars are missiles that Allah fires at the Jinns who climb the heaven to eavesdrop on the conversation of the exalted assembly. These stupid tales could even amuse us. Islam must go because it teaches hate, it orders killing of non-Muslims, it denigrates women and it violates the human rights. Islam must go not because it is false but because it is destructive, because it is dangerous; a threat to peace and security of humankind. With the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction in Islamic countries, Islam has become a serious and a real threat to the survival of our civilization

You're such a wise one, and may you grow from wisdom to wisdom. To be sincere, i've considered this before: if KKK is illegal, what about Islam? I love George Bush, we need guys like him. So sad that most people don't support him

Greetings,

The reason why much of the violence seems to be coming from Muslims is multi-faced.

Firstly we have the issue of potrayal of Muslims and Islam in the Western media, arguably the most powerful media outlet across the world. It just so happens that Islam bashing and sells for these people. It gets them viewers and readers. But the media definately focuses and scrutanises Islam and Muslims a lot. The Middle East is probably one of the most volatile regions on the planet, hence it will of interest as the scene of world coverage for decades to come.

For example: Did you know before the sectarian violence in Iraq, it was actually the Secularist Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka that held the record for most suicide bombings? Can anyone put up their hand and tell me they knew this fact? Most probably not. We all automatically assume this phenomineon is soley attributed to Islam, even though its root stem in Seculrism.

You see its what we hear on the media that shapes many of our views. The media will continously go on about suicide bombings perpetrated by Muslims, but they will not give so much airtime when its other places. In a way, its a case of misinformation by ommission.

There is no doubt the Muslim world is steeped in a lot of violence. But only a fool will take this statement at face value and not look beyond. It is also a fact that Muslims are amungst one of the most poverished and persecuated people across the world, in number and place. Muslims are being oppressed a lot throughout this world. Naturally no-one likes oppression, and you cannot expect people to be oppressed in silence.

Look at Afghanistan- Afghanistan was already a war-torn country before, suffering badly at the hands of the Soviets and others before. But when the country was finally gaining some peace, especially the majority of the country under Taliban control and not the frontline to the North East, Afghanistan is ruined and massacred yet again.

Palestine - a people oppressed on a daily basis, prisoners like they are; can you expect there to be no violence?

Somalia - a similar story to Afghanistan. There was a much needed lull in years of violence when the Islamic Courts came to power. But when the invaders entered, we see how Somalia has decended back into chaos.

Iraq - there was no war in Iraq pre-2003. Yes, millions of children were dying at the hands of the sanctions imposed on the Iraqi people by the United States, but the death toll was nowhere near this high. The bloodshed in Iraq is overwhelming, but that can only be expected when a certain country sees fit to invade and occupy another soveriegn nation like that.

Lebanon - we had the war last summer, well can I call it a war? It was more like a massacre by the Israeli planes and troops. It was the Muslims of Lebanon that had death fall on them from the skies.

Chechnya - a convenient story that the world media gives next to no coverage of. After all, who would want to know about how the Russians are slaughtering the Muslims in Chechnya on a daily basis? The abuses and deaths in Chechnya are shocking, yet out of the worlds sight.

Kashmir - again, the usual story of an occupation of Muslims by India.

And there are many more examples of suffering Muslims in China, in Buddhist majority Myanmar, India, Philippines,

Of course in a time of peace Islam is a peaceful religion with a peaceful following. But at the time of war, when faced with death and persecution, don't expect Muslim to allow themselves to be trodden over. They will be loud, and demand their rights and take up arms if necessary.

Peace

Hi @Tiptronic,

Tiptronic:

Palestine - a people oppressed on a daily basis, prisoners like they are; can you expect there to be no violence?
. . .

Of course in a time of peace Islam is a peaceful religion with a peaceful following. But at the time of war, when faced with death and persecution, don't expect Muslim to allow themselves to be trodden over. They will be loud, and demand their rights and take up arms if necessary.

Who really is oppressing the Palestinians? And on top of that, do the Palestinians have to resort to deception to keep up the propaganda that is so hard for many to decode?

Please take a look at the following clip and see things for yourself. At the end of the day, I'd like you to please offer me some good reason why Muslims resort to such dishonest means to pretend their so-called oppression:

PALLYWOOD -- (http://seconddraft.org/streaming/pallywood.wmv)

You need a windows media player to be able to view the clip.

Regards.

Greetings Pilgrim,

So please do tell me who is oppressing the Palestinian people? Who has them under occupation?

As for your clip, I don't think it is needed here, nor proves much. It looks quite old, and without further information, I can't really comment. Of course there will be bias in such a shady video clip. But tell me straight what your point in posting it was?

Is it to prove to me that in fact the Palestinian people are being killed and oppressed and anything they say is just pure propaganda?

Peace

@Tiptronic,

The answers are in the clip; and no, it's not an old clip or of poor quality. I often read replies like yours when people are not willing to face the simple truth but would rather prefer to remian with the propaganda.

I'd rather you view the clip first and see why I posted it, instead of quickly assuming what you've stated.

Pilgrim,

I think it is safe to say that this clip in itself is propaganda of sorts. It is obviously biased coming from an American director. It is quite absurd to suggest that the Palestinian suffering is one big movie set with actors, directors, make-up people and cameramen. Its quite an insult to be honest. The clip in itself shows no sign of any research. It has one scene all the way through of a particular event, which it fails to document properly, location, date etc, and just gives its own commentary on the matter.

Not worth a discussion point to be honest, else I could post many videos of some real persecuation, which is no acting and we could debate that.

Peace

@ tiptronic, i very much appreciate your attempt at rationalising the issue of islam and its continous bleating about a peace that exists only in the imagination but like all muslims you have chosen to serve us a diet of 20% truth and 80% falsehood. I will attempt to point out the inherent flaws and gaping holes in your poorly researched treatise.

Tiptronic:

Greetings,

The reason why much of the violence seems to be coming from Muslims is multi-faced.

Firstly we have the issue of potrayal of Muslims and Islam in the Western media, arguably the most powerful media outlet across the world. It just so happens that Islam bashing and sells for these people. It gets them viewers and readers. But the media definately focuses and scrutanises Islam and Muslims a lot. The Middle East is probably one of the most volatile regions on the planet, hence it will of interest as the scene of world coverage for decades to come.

Christianity is equally portrayed poorly in the media. Dan Brown perhaps caused a much larger furore than the Danish cartoons did when he wrote the davinci code. the same blasphemous book has been made into a movie and yet NO ONE is declaring a day of rage.
In the US, prominent men of God like Jerry Falwel and Pat Robertson are reviled and labeled "christian extremists" and yet no one is shedding crocodile tears. Perhaps you would be more honest with yourself if you admit that the reason islam is so much in the news is because of YOU!

Like millions of Americans and perhaps Europeans, i never gave islam much more than a fleeting thought until 9-11.

Tiptronic:

For example: Did you know before the sectarian violence in Iraq, it was actually the Secularist Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka that held the record for most suicide bombings? Can anyone put up their hand and tell me they knew this fact? Most probably not. We all automatically assume this phenomineon is soley attributed to Islam, even though its root stem in Seculrism.

A point of note - the tamil tigers are a hindu based group and not secularists; at least you have not labeled them christians.
There is a HUGE difference that you have conveniently chosen to ignore. The Tamil tigers are fighting a battle for independence. They dont go around bombing Kenyans, Americans, Germans, Spaniards in the name of their hindu god.

Here is the question you should answer, what was the purpose of bombing Bali, 9-11, 7-7, Nairobi? Why was a nun in Somalia killed for the comments of a Pope in faraway Rome?

Tiptronic:

You see its what we hear on the media that shapes many of our views. The media will continously go on about suicide bombings perpetrated by Muslims, but they will not give so much airtime when its other places. In a way, its a case of misinformation by ommission.

The media would care less if muslims restricted their evil activities to Pakistan, Iran and other muslim enclaves. No one is interested in what Osama looks like, all we ask is that he keeps his bombs and evil ideology to himself. Trust me, no one will shed a single tear if terrorists decided to kill other muslims in the name of allah.

Tiptronic:

There is no doubt the Muslim world is steeped in a lot of violence. But only a fool will take this statement at face value and not look beyond. It is also a fact that Muslims are amungst one of the most poverished and persecuated people across the world, in number and place. Muslims are being oppressed a lot throughout this world. Naturally no-one likes oppression, and you cannot expect people to be oppressed in silence.

Africans are more impoverished than muslims, have had to endure centuries of slavery (also perpetrated against them by the arab world) and still have to deal with everyday cases of institutionalised racism - why are they not bombing everyone?
6 million jews went through gas chambers during the 2nd world war and yet Germany has not had a single case of suicide attacks from an aggrieved Jew.

What special form of "oppression" are muslims always crying about?

Tiptronic:

Look at Afghanistan- Afghanistan was already a war-torn country before, suffering badly at the hands of the Soviets and others before. But when the country was finally gaining some peace, especially the majority of the country under Taliban control and not the frontline to the North East, Afghanistan is ruined and massacred yet again.

Sierra Leone, Liberia, Congo Democratic are examples of countries steeped in civil war and yet we are not hiding in bomb shelters.
What "peace" was afghanistan gaining under the taliban? the peace of the graveyard? The same taliban that served and still serves as a recruiting ground for terrorists and provided a safe haven for al qaeda?

Tiptronic:

Palestine - a people oppressed on a daily basis, prisoners like they are; can you expect there to be no violence?

Let's be sincere here, who is oppressing the palestinians? As at 1948, the westbank (judea and samaria) belonged to Isreal, before it was invaded and captured by Jordan during the war of independence. Gaza belonged to Egypt before 1967 and was being used as a base to launch attacks at Isreal.
Before 1967 why were the "palestinians" not fighting Egypt and Jordan for the same land they now want to hang Isreal for?

The Lebanese army is busy shelling "palestinian refugee camps" in Beirut and no one is complaining about "oppression". Hamas invaded Gaza and murdered hundreds and yet islamic voices where silent! Is it only "oppression" when the Jews decide to defend themselves against katyusha rockets?

Tiptronic:

Somalia - a similar story to Afghanistan. There was a much needed lull in years of violence when the Islamic Courts came to power. But when the invaders entered, we see how Somalia has decended back into chaos.

lol the islamic courts was an illegal structure put together by somali islamists in 2000 as a rival to the already existing Transitional Federal Government (TFG) of Somalia! Please remember to remind those who are used to seeing the word "invaders" as refering to the USA that your "invaders" here refers to Ethiopia!

Tiptronic:

Iraq - there was no war in Iraq pre-2003. Yes, millions of children were dying at the hands of the sanctions imposed on the Iraqi people by the United States, but the death toll was nowhere near this high. The bloodshed in Iraq is overwhelming, but that can only be expected when a certain country sees fit to invade and occupy another soveriegn nation like that.

1. There was no war in Iraq pre-2003 but it was embroiled in a bitter 8yr war of attrition with Iran, the same Iraq invaded Kuwait and Saddam killed millions of kurdish minorities with chemical weapons. Amazing that the muslim world has been silent about this only to jump to 2003 as if Iraq was always a paragon of peace.
Dont forget that Saddam is known to have payed families of suicide bombers!

2. Lest i forget, the problem in Iraq is not really caused by the invading Americans but by sunnis and shiites who think the only way to settle disputes is by bombing themselves to jaanat!

Tiptronic:

Lebanon - we had the war last summer, well can I call it a war? It was more like a massacre by the Israeli planes and troops. It was the Muslims of Lebanon that had death fall on them from the skies.

errm maybe you want to direct this to the appropriate quaters - hizbullah.
Perhaps i also need to remind you that Lebanese are not only made up of muslims.
Do i also need to demonstrate how difficult it is to pick out an enemy that chooses to launch missiles from mosques and residential houses?
Do we need to prove to you that the isreali victims of hizbulah's 6 yr indiscriminate and unprovoked bombing campaign that provoked this war are also humans who just dont happen to be muslim arab?

Tiptronic:

Chechnya - a convenient story that the world media gives next to no coverage of. After all, who would want to know about how the Russians are slaughtering the Muslims in Chechnya on a daily basis? The abuses and deaths in Chechnya are shocking, yet out of the worlds sight.

The most shocking abuses in Chechnya are by the muslims themselves. Beslan anyone?

Tiptronic:

Kashmir - again, the usual story of an occupation of Muslims by India.

What a silly claim. Are there no muslims in india? So if Nigeria goes to war with Cameroon over Bakassi you will claim it is another act of aggression against muslims? The fact that you need to cling to spurious and unreasonable claims such as this is proof that you really are just looking for any excuse to justify the unjustifiable.

Tiptronic:

And there are many more examples of suffering Muslims in China, in Buddhist majority Myanmar, India, Philippines,

There are equal and if not worse examples of christian persecution in those countries most especially China. Why are the muslims the only ones always in a rage?

Tiptronic:

Of course in a time of peace Islam is a peaceful religion with a peaceful following.

If you are only at peace when your environment is peaceful, then you cant really claim to be a peaceful individual. Being peaceful is when you can stay calm in the midst of a storm. Islam is only a "peaceful religion" when everyone submits to them.

Tiptronic:

But at the time of war, when faced with death and persecution,

The usual victims excuse. At this rate one would think only muslims understand what persecution means. the same muslims who persecute christians in their own enclaves. What a bunch of hypocritical murderers.

Tiptronic:

don't expect Muslim to allow themselves to be trodden over. They will be loud, and demand their rights and take up arms if necessary.

What rights? The same rights they deny others in their own enclaves? Do those rights include trampling on the rights of others? What rights do muslims have to denounce the knighthood of Salman Rushdie when bibles are forbidden in Saudi Arabia? What rights do muslims have to demand headscarves in France when they deny christians the right to build churches in Kano?

What rights do you have to emigrate to another country and then demand that things be done your own way?

Muslims who seek spurious "rights" should learn to go back to their backward 12th century caves and demand their rights there!

@Tiptronic,

Tiptronic:

I think it is safe to say that this clip in itself is propaganda of sorts. It is obviously biased coming from an American director. It is quite absurd to suggest that the Palestinian suffering is one big movie set with actors, directors, make-up people and cameramen.

Who's playing the propaganda - the narrators, or the very same Palestinians caught on video doing the dishonest act? Did you find American directors, actors, make-up artists and camera-crew doing the skits in the clip? Is that how biased you can afford to be?

Tiptronic:

Its quite an insult to be honest. The clip in itself shows no sign of any research. It has one scene all the way through of a particular event, which it fails to document properly, location, date etc, and just gives its own commentary on the matter.

If the commentary had been in Arabic and the viewer did not understand a word of Arabic, would you still be saying the same thing?

The analysis of Palestinian "corpse" falling off the bier TWICE and climbing on again - what do you call that?

The Palestinian who was firing into an empty buildling after the initial drama rehearsals and then pretending it was a "real" gun battle with the Israelis - what do you call that?

The Palestinian doctor who "coached" the driver and his wife to lie about her delivery - what do you call that?

The "injured", "dead" and "wounded" Palestinians who were rushed to the standby ambulances but got up with wide smiles after the deceptive skits - what do you call that?

And talk of proper documentation, location and date - did you miss the fact that all these were well stated in the clip (no date, but April 2002 was mentioned clearly)??

Your reaction and typical "blame-it-on-America" attitude shows exactly how weak a propaganda you're trying to pretend here.

Tiptronic:

Not worth a discussion point to be honest, else I could post many videos of some real persecuation, which is no acting and we could debate that.

All I offered was a simple case: view the clip, and then please explain to me why the Palestinians have to be so deceptive. Nothing more. The games peddled about and noised abroad is not making good for the Palestinian "oppression".

Pilgrim, I really don't know what point you're trying to make.

This is just foolish and I can't have a discussion based on some random video you have plucked, and fail to make clear what your point is?

Go ahead and make it clear.

Are you saying all these reports of dead Palestinians are actually fake and that they arent killed?
The thousands of Palestinians that have died over the years have in fact been auditioning for a movie?
There is a dedicated movie set by the name of Pallywood set up in Palestine to direct fake movies?

Why am I wasting my time here?

As for proganda, its been around for as long as an organised media has been. Everyone uses it around the world. You should really know that.

How about you post some real news article about the palestinians that we can easily debate, or do you still believe the palestinians are not being oppressed?

@ tiptronic, your ability to manipulate truth and your propensity for revisionism is beyond belief.

Of course i never expect an arab let alone a muslim to criticise fellow muslims even when it is glaring.

Just so i dont bore you, the pallywood video is a disgrace to your oft touted palestinian "oppression". Just wondering if you saw the tons of compelling evidence accusing hizbullah of using the very same tactic during the last war with isreal last yr. Just in case you also need it i can produce it sitting here on my computer.

What a bunch of hypocritical murderers!

@ tiptronic, i very much appreciate your attempt at rationalising the issue of islam and its continous bleating about a peace that exists only in the imagination but like all muslims you have chosen to serve us a diet of 20% truth and 80% falsehood. I will attempt to point out the inherent flaws and gaping holes in your poorly researched treatise.

Greetings! We'll see.


[Quote]Christianity is equally portrayed poorly in the media. Dan Brown perhaps caused a much larger furore than the Danish cartoons did when he wrote the davinci code. the same blasphemous book has been made into a movie and yet NO ONE is declaring a day of rage.
In the US, prominent men of God like Jerry Falwel and Pat Robertson are reviled and labeled "christian extremists" and yet no one is shedding crocodile tears. Perhaps you would be more honest with yourself if you admit that the reason islam is so much in the news is because of YOU!

Like millions of Americans and perhaps Europeans, i never gave islam much more than a fleeting thought until 9-11. [/quote]

No.  Christianity is not protrayed in the same light as Islam.  You can only name two labelled 'extremists'.  Pretty much every Muslim that appears on the media is labelled an "extremist".  Just have a look at the news and tell me is Islam or Christianity in the news more?  Please don't insult my intelligence.


[Quote]A point of note - the tamil tigers are a hindu based group and not secularists; at least you have not labeled them christians.
There is a HUGE difference that you have conveniently chosen to ignore. The Tamil tigers are fighting a battle for independence. They don't go around bombing Kenyans, Americans, Germans, Spaniards in the name of their hindu god. [/quote]

See this is easy.  Its a simple factual case that can be verified easily.

The tamil tigers are not a 'hindu group'.

The Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam, popularly known as the Tamil Tigers, is an avowedly secular rebel movement of the country's Tamil ethnic minority. It carried out scores of suicide bombings from the late 1980s until a cease-fire in 2002. The conflict between the Tigers and the government, which is dominated by members of the Sinhalese majority, began in 1983 and claimed an estimated 65,000 lives.

Source.  That should have cleared that up for you, as there is no need to make incorrect statements like that.

I never said they do those actions in the name of their hindu god.  If anything, by claiming they were secular, that would be obvious that they dont do such actions in the name of God.  Try to stay consistant.

They are fighting for independance?  Just like the Iraqis are fighting for their independance from subjugation by Western powers?  Does that excuse their actions.

You may also want to enligten yourself a bit more on the Tamil Tigers either through Wikipedia or read this.

Here is the question you should answer, what was the purpose of bombing Bali, 9-11, 7-7, Nairobi? Why was a nun in Somalia killed for the comments of a Pope in faraway Rome?

The first three were terrorist actions.  Unjustly targetting civilians, just like the Tamil Tigers do.
The last was petty criminals, and they were caught up with by the UIC.

[Quote]The media would care less if muslims restricted their evil activities to Pakistan, Iran and other muslim enclaves. No one is interested in what Osama looks like, all we ask is that he keeps his bombs and evil ideology to himself. Trust me, no one will shed a single tear if terrorists decided to kill other muslims in the name of allah.[/quote]

Maybe you could also keep your bombs of their lands?  Now there's a thought.  


[Quote]
Africans are more impoverished than muslims, have had to endure centuries of slavery (also perpetrated against them by the arab world) and still have to deal with everyday cases of institutionalised racism - why are they not bombing everyone?
6 million jews went through gas chambers during the 2nd world war and yet Germany has not had a single case of suicide attacks from an aggrieved Jew.

What special form of "oppression" are muslims always crying about? [/quote]

Racism?  Im sure the thousands of Muslims that are oppressed and killed daily would rather endure this 'racism' tham what they are suffering.  The Jews pretty much got what they wanted: their own state, strict laws of anti-semitism which leads to some nice immunity of their crimes, massive and unwavering support from the worlds super power, what more could they ask for. It seemed to work out pretty well for them.


[Quote]
Sierra Leone, Liberia, Congo Democratic are examples of countries steeped in civil war and yet we are not hiding in bomb shelters.[/quote]

Those countries aren't occupied by any super power.  But all of them (afghanistan, sierra leone, liberia and DRC are all failed states, civil war destroys countries my friend)

What "peace" was afghanistan gaining under the taliban? the peace of the graveyard? The same taliban that served and still serves as a recruiting ground for terrorists and provided a safe haven for al qaeda?

The peace you are obviously unaware of.  After the Taliban swept through the country, there was no civil war in the areas controlled by them.  Afghanistan was a hundred times more safer than it is now.

The Taliban dont recruit any foreign terrorists.  That is nothing more than ill-informed opinion, that I suggest you back up with proof.  America decided to attack, invade and occupy Afghanistan based on the assumption that Bin Laden was responsible for 9/11 despite the Taliban requests to show proof in order to hand OBL over falling on deaf ears, and despite the fact that the US has no actual evidence against OBL.  9/11 is nowhere to be mentioned on OBLs Most Wanted FBI page, and here's the reason why:

When asked why there is no mention of 9/11 on Bin Laden's Most Wanted web page, [Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI] said, "The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden's Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11." ( Muckraker Report )

Let's be sincere here, who is oppressing the palestinians? As at 1948, the westbank (judea and samaria) belonged to Isreal, before it was invaded and captured by Jordan during the war of independence. Gaza belonged to Egypt before 1967 and was being used as a base to launch attacks at Isreal.
Before 1967 why were the "palestinians" not fighting Egypt and Jordan for the same land they now want to hang Isreal for?

The Lebanese army is busy shelling "palestinian refugee camps" in Beirut and no one is complaining about "oppression". Hamas invaded Gaza and murdered hundreds and yet islamic voices where silent! Is it only "oppression" when the Jews decide to defend themselves against katyusha rockets?

Who is oppressing the Palestinian people?  In case you haven't noticed neither the Egyptians or Jordanians are involved in Palestinian affairs let alone oppressing them.  It is clearly the Isreali forces that are oppressing the people of filistine.  Why do you Christians have a problem accepting this fact?  Is it in your religious dogma to support the Jewish people no matter what?

As for the Lebenese, no can say they are surprised.  A bunch of cowards who would rather kill Muslims than fight to defend their land during the last summer Israeli-Lebanon war.

[Quote]
lol the islamic courts was an illegal structure put together by somali islamists in 2000 as a rival to the already existing Transitional Federal Government (TFG) of Somalia! Please remember to remind those who are used to seeing the word "invaders" as refering to the USA that your "invaders" here refers to Ethiopia![/quote]

The TFG was completely useless at keeping law and order let alone running the country.  Legal or not, the UIC showed how capable they were, when even Western commentators admit that Somalia enjoyed a six month or so period of stability and calm, something which eluded Somalia for years.  Who did the UIC invade?  Who did they attack?  Who did they even threaten to attack?  A resounding NOONE.  Yet because they were an Islamic group, the West saw to it they were attacked and yet another Muslim country subjugated to foreign occupation.

Yes the Ethiopians were the invaders, but surprise surprise, with full US backing and military support.  Why do you assume its soley Americans Muslims hate as occupiers?  If its the British, Ethiopian, Israeli all the same.

[Quote]
1. There was no war in Iraq pre-2003 but it was embroiled in a bitter 8yr war of attrition with Iran, the same Iraq invaded Kuwait and Saddam killed millions of kurdish minorities with chemical weapons. Amazing that the muslim world has been silent about this only to jump to 2003 as if Iraq was always a paragon of peace.
Dont forget that Saddam is known to have payed families of suicide bombers![/quote]

You call that justification for war with Iraq  The fact that they were at war with Iran (which ended in 1988, nothing to do with 2003) almost two decades prior, meant that the US was justified to attack  What kind of warped logic is that?  Attack and occupy countries that are at war with someone else!  You have to be joking.

Iraq's link with 9/11 or OBL turned out to be a lie (dont argue with me on that, argue with the 9/11 commission report) and the infamous weapons of mass deception never materialised, but hey, at least we got rid of a dictator!!  The Iraq war was illegal, without UN backing and flawed from start to end.  When can we expect America to invade other countries with dictators, like Zimbabwe etc?

2. Lest i forget, the problem in Iraq is not really caused by the invading Americans but by sunnis and shiites who think the only way to settle disputes is by bombing themselves to jaanat!

NO, the problem is always occupation.  Occupying and stealing a countries natural resources is never right.  It only takes a few brain cells to work out.  Look at Iraq and its death toll in 2002 and then look again at it in 2003 onwards.  What was the one determining factor of change, US invasion.

Another interesting article you might wanna get your teeth into: Independant Newspaper

[Quote]
errm maybe you want to direct this to the appropriate quaters - hizbullah.[/quote]

There is no way anyone in their sane mind would say that Israeli attacking Lebanon the way it did was a measured or proportionate force.  No way.  And did they ever achieve their aims?  No.

Whats the big deal, Isreal is always doing such dasterdly kidnappings and [url=http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21304344-1702,00.html]assasinations[/url]

Perhaps i also need to remind you that Lebanese are not only made up of muslims.

60% and?  The Bekka valley and sourthern Beirut suburbs were very much Muslim though.

Do i also need to demonstrate how difficult it is to pick out an enemy that chooses to launch missiles from mosques and residential houses?

The figures speak for themselves: (wikipedia)

Lebanese combatants dead: 600 (taking max est)
Lebanese civilians dead:       ~ 1000

Israeli defence forces dead: 119
Israeli civilians dead:            43

The MAJORITY on the Israeli side were military, while the MAJORITY on the Lebanese side were civilians.  Tells you something.

How were these guerilla fighters able to maximise military fatalities, yet kept civilians deaths to a minimum, but the Israelis (with US supplied smart bombs and high tech equiptment) managed to kill twice as many civilians as they did Hezbollah?

Do we need to prove to you that the isreali victims of hizbulah's 6 yr indiscriminate and unprovoked bombing campaign that provoked this war are also humans who just don't happen to be muslim arab?

Firstly, provide sources like I have done so tirelessly.  Hezbollah attempted to carry out cross border attacks against IDF military, and capture soldiers, which once proved effective at negotiating prisoner exchanges.  But that had nothing to do with the summer war.  The war ignited over the capture of the Israeli soldiers and the attack on their patrol (supposedly)

Fact was, Israel was going to attack anyway, it was just a matter of time.  [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/syria/story/0,,2029732,00.html]Olmert said sohimself[/url]


[Quote]
The most shocking abuses in Chechnya are by the muslims themselves. Beslan anyone?[/quote]

Beslan isnt it Chechnya

And beslan happens all the time in Chechnya.  You can stay informed by checking out this news agency: Kavkazcenter.com

[Quote]What a silly claim. Are there no muslims in india?[/quote]

Yes there are.  Did I say otherwise?

So if Nigeria goes to war with Cameroon over Bakassi you will claim it is another act of aggression against muslims? The fact that you need to cling to spurious and unreasonable claims such as this is proof that you really are just looking for any excuse to justify the unjustifiable.

OK, can you justify Indian rule over Kashmir?  


[Quote]There are equal and if not worse examples of christian persecution in those countries most especially China. Why are the muslims the only ones always in a rage?[/quote]

Because Muslims care what happens to their brothers on the other side of the world.

The fact that some Christians were also persecuted in China doesnt justify the killings of Muslims there.  You do acknowledge the persecution and suffering of Muslims in such places dont you?

[Quote]If you are only at peace when your environment is peaceful, then you can't really claim to be a peaceful individual. Being peaceful is when you can stay calm in the midst of a storm. Islam is only a "peaceful religion" when everyone submits to them. [/quote]

Exactly @ the bold part.  And right now, countless wars are being waged on Muslim lands, so its only natural for them to react.

[Quote]The usual victims excuse. At this rate one would think only muslims understand what persecution means. the same muslims who persecute christians in their own enclaves. What a bunch of hypocritical murderers.[/quote]

Let me know when you hear of mass murder against Christians in these Muslim enclaves.  Because at the moment it seems the Christian West is doing all the killing of Muslims.

Question: do you expect Muslims to be subjugated like this and not fight back?

[Quote]
What rights? The same rights they deny others in their own enclaves? Do those rights include trampling on the rights of others? What rights do muslims have to denounce the knighthood of Salman Rushdie when bibles are forbidden in Saudi Arabia? What rights do muslims have to demand headscarves in France when they deny christians the right to build churches in Kano?[/quote]

The right not be slaughtered by a 2000lb bomb from a B-52.  The right not to be piled naked into pyramids and humiliated in prisons.  The right not to be caged without trial and tortured in secret prisons overseas.  The right not to be shot at or killed in your country.  Etc etc ad nauseam. I'm talking about death and oppression in a grand scale here.

Muslims have ever right to voice their opposition to any Knighthood, is that against any law.  Are Qurans allowed in the Vatican?  

As for headscarves, remember its the Western democracy of France, the civilised country, the one that boasts religious freedom and all that tripe that is banning such a thing.  Muslims have never claimed to be shining democracies etc etc , but the west does yet, hypocritical as they are, ban the headscarf.

What rights do you have to emigrate to another country and then demand that things be done your own way?

All the rights of that country actually.  Don't know where you live, but here, its every citizens right to scream at the top of their lungs what they want and how they want it.  Whether anyone will actually listen to them is a seperate matter entirely, but to answer your question, people have every right to do so, apparently.

Muslims who seek spurious "rights" should learn to go back to their backward 12th century caves and demand their rights there!

Why should be bother about Human Rights, when we are losing the very Humans those Rights are supposed to protect?  But I suppose its OK to kill and slaughter Muslims around the world.

Quite a bit of misinformation presented there David.  Did you think I wouldnt know my stuff?  Wise up my friend, and provide sources and references like I have if you want to maintain integrity.

Peace!

Greetings!

@ tiptronic, your ability to manipulate truth and your propensity for revisionism is beyond belief.

Of course i never expect an arab let alone a muslim to criticise fellow muslims even when it is glaring.

Just so i don't bore you, the pallywood video is a disgrace to your oft touted palestinian "oppression". Just wondering if you saw the tons of compelling evidence accusing hizbullah of using the very same tactic during the last war with isreal last yr. Just in case you also need it i can produce it sitting here on my computer.

What a bunch of hypocritical murderers!

Some dodgy and biased video? I prefer to deal with better sources.

Palestinian oppression is very much a real issue that happens. Why are you denying it?

As for maniplulating the truth, Ive given you a lengthy reply that should keep you occupied. You need to inform yourself on a few issues raised before you can accuse others of lying or ignorance.

Ive also littered the post with sources and references. Maybe you wanna try the same?

Peace!

@ triptonic, nice tete a tete we have here eh, maybe i should also open up with ur obviously false "greetings".

Tiptronic:

No. Christianity is not protrayed in the same light as Islam. You can only name two labelled 'extremists'. Pretty much every Muslim that appears on the media is labelled an "extremist". Just have a look at the news and tell me is Islam or Christianity in the news more? Please don't insult my intelligence.

Maybe christians are not in the news as much as islam because you dont see christians using children as suicide bombers in the name of Jesus eh? that cant be so difficult to understand. the day you see christians hijack two aircraft and crash it into towers in Egypt pls let me know.

Tiptronic:

They are fighting for independance? Just like the Iraqis are fighting for their independance from subjugation by Western powers? Does that excuse their actions.

Even you should know that is absolute hogwash! If the Iraqis are "fighting for independence from subjugation by western powers" why are sunnis bombing shiite mosques and shiites kidnapping and killing sunnis? Are they western powers? Why are the kurds not fighting for independence too or are they no longer part of iraq?

Tiptronic:

Maybe you could also keep your bombs of their lands? Now there's a thought.

Maybe if you had kept your suicide bombers, fatwas and days of rage to urselves we wont even care to know if islam is a religion or a cult.

Tiptronic:

Racism? I'm sure the thousands of Muslims that are oppressed and killed daily would rather endure this 'racism' tham what they are suffering. The Jews pretty much got what they wanted: their own state, strict laws of anti-semitism which leads to some nice immunity of their crimes, massive and unwavering support from the worlds super power, what more could they ask for. It seemed to work out pretty well for them.

awww see muslims sniveling. They must be really oppressed indeed what a pity! Where are the muslims who are "killed daily" and who are the ones killing them? Americans, Jews, Russians or Germans? Last i checked the muslims in Iraq, Lebanon, Darfur, Pakistan, Palestine are so busy killing themselves that at this rate there will be no muslim left in the next 20 yrs.
Now here's the hypocrisy of ur statement, if indeed western powers are "oppressing" muslims why are muslims the largest block of immigrants to these same "oppressive" western nations? Why dont you all deport urselves enmasse in protest for this o so painful "oppression"?

Tiptronic:

The peace you are obviously unaware of. After the Taliban swept through the country, there was no civil war in the areas controlled by them. Afghanistan was a hundred times more safer than it is now.

I agree, Afghanistan was so safe that its citizens were glad to see the taliban go.

Tiptronic:

The Taliban don't recruit any foreign terrorists. That is nothing more than ill-informed opinion, that I suggest you back up with proof. America decided to attack, invade and occupy Afghanistan based on the assumption that Bin Laden was responsible for 9/11 despite the Taliban requests to show proof in order to hand OBL over falling on deaf ears, and despite the fact that the US has no actual evidence against OBL. 9/11 is nowhere to be mentioned on OBLs Most Wanted FBI page, and here's the reason why:

You mean with all the wealth of evidence linking the "magnificent 19" to al qaeda you can still come up with this tripe? This must be the joke of the century, the taliban actually considered giving OBL to the US? who are u fooling?

Tiptronic:

Who is oppressing the Palestinian people? In case you haven't noticed neither the Egyptians or Jordanians are involved in Palestinian affairs let alone oppressing them. It is clearly the Isreali forces that are oppressing the people of filistine. Why do you Christians have a problem accepting this fact? Is it in your religious dogma to support the Jewish people no matter what?

No the Egyptians and Jordanians are not involved in palestinian affairs simply because they dont care and "palestine" is nothing but a tool in the hands of islamists to achieve the goal of destroying the jews. Filistine? Need i remind you that the ancient filistines died out well before the 5th century BC and were certainly NOT arabs!
Please answer this two questions and i will not bother you on this issue again:

1. Who was the president of palestine in 1930?
2. Why did the palestinians crying of "oppression" today not fight for Gaza and the west bank (judea/samaria) before 1967 when they were territories of Egypt and Jordan respectively?

Tiptronic:

As for the Lebenese, no can say they are surprised. A bunch of cowards who would rather kill Muslims than fight to defend their land during the last summer Israeli-Lebanon war.

Really? Your warped sense of logic defies belief! What land would the Lebanese army be defending? The very lands that have been over-run by a foreign funded terrorist group it no longer has millitary control over? Why do you cry "defend your land" when Isreal retaliates but keep mute when hizbullah uses those same lands as launching pads to attack Isreal? Smacks of hypocrisy doesnt it?

Tiptronic:

You call that justification for war with Iraq The fact that they were at war with Iran (which ended in 1988, nothing to do with 2003) almost two decades prior, meant that the US was justified to attack What kind of warped logic is that? Attack and occupy countries that are at war with someone else! You have to be joking.

Isnt it amazing that you conveniently ignored the fact that Saddam INVADED kuwait and had to be driven out by US forces in 1991? Or is it only "invasion" when it is the US army and the muslim world turns a blind eye when the invading force is muslim?
Isnt it also amazing that you hypocritically ignored the fact that Saddam killed thousands of kurds with chemical weapons? Or are the kurds no more muslims? i dont remember hearing any of u crying about "oppression" then eh.

Tiptronic:

Iraq's link with 9/11 or OBL turned out to be a lie (don't argue with me on that, argue with the 9/11 commission report) and the infamous weapons of mass deception never materialised, but hey, at least we got rid of a dictator!! The Iraq war was illegal, without UN backing and flawed from start to end. When can we expect America to invade other countries with dictators, like Zimbabwe etc?

I'm sure the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait had UN backing. The US does not need to invade Zimbabwe neither are we bothered, Zimbabweans dont go around bombing innocent people in the name of Mugabe!

Tiptronic:

NO, the problem is always occupation. Occupying and stealing a countries natural resources is never right. It only takes a few brain cells to work out. Look at Iraq and its death toll in 2002 and then look again at it in 2003 onwards. What was the one determining factor of change, US invasion.

It is easy to cry about invasion when it happens to be the US or Isreal. Where were you when Syria invaded and occupied Lebanon for 25 yrs?
Where was this muslim world when Saddam invaded Kuwait in 1991?

Compare Iraqi death toll in 2003 to that in 2007 and it is clear more than 90% of deaths are not from US guns but from muslim suicide bombs! Remove your blinkered glasses, it only takes a few brain cells to work that out!

Tiptronic:

Another interesting article you might want to get your teeth into: Independant Newspaper

Another article that feeds your propaganda? No thank you. Awww robert Fisk again? We have thrashed out his lies elsewhere on this thread, too late.

Tiptronic:

There is no way anyone in their sane mind would say that Israeli attacking Lebanon the way it did was a measured or proportionate force. No way. And did they ever achieve their aims? No.

Isrea DID NOT attack Lebanon, she attacked a legitimate threat using Lebanon as a convenient shield for its crimes. Crimes that Lebanon conveniently chose to turn a blind eye to. Hizbullah rained rockets on Isreali villages without response for 6 yrs, why were u not crying about oppression?
Hizbullah rained 13000 rockets with ball bearings within the space of 1 month yet you chose to keep quiet. What do you consider a proper response from the Isrealis? That they fold their arms or fight back with sticks and stones?

No they did not achieve their aims because to do so would have meant the complete destruction of Lebanon since hizbullah's idea of war is to wear burqas and fire rockets from their grandfathers living room so they can cry about "oppression" as soon as Isreali bombs land in retaliation.

Tiptronic:

Whats the big deal, Isreal is always doing such dasterdly kidnappings and [url=http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21304344-1702,00.html]assasinations[/url]

Now we know most of those accusations are false and stage managed by pallywood to whip gullible people like you into a frenzy. And Hamas and Fatah are innocent bystanders in this Isreali "dastardly kidnappings"? What a bunch of decietful demons!

Tiptronic:

Lebanese combatants dead: 600 (taking max est)
Lebanese civilians dead: ~ 1000

Israeli defence forces dead: 119
Israeli civilians dead: 43

Perhaps you might be more interested in the number of civillians who were killed by Hamas in their invasion of Gaza. Care to know how many civillians have died in the Lebanese army onslaught on palestinian refugee camps yet?

Tiptronic:

The MAJORITY on the Israeli side were military, while the MAJORITY on the Lebanese side were civilians. Tells you something.

Maybe because the IDF dont launch their own rockets from living rooms, mosques, synagogues and on busy streets. If you think outside your islamic fog of deception that should tell you something too.

Tiptronic:

How were these guerilla fighters able to maximise military fatalities, yet kept civilians deaths to a minimum, but the Israelis (with US supplied smart bombs and high tech equiptment) managed to kill twice as many civilians as they did Hezbollah?

Irrelevant tripe! Maybe the Isrealis should teach the Lebanese how to build bomb shelters for their citizens and stop hizbullah from using residential buildings as millitary posts. I doubt if anyone has invented smart bombs that can pick out terrorists in burqas firing rockets from a busy market!

Tiptronic:

Firstly, provide sources like I have done so tirelessly.

the one source i provided about hamas ideology and you fled the thread in shame. Your "sources" here are nothing more than propaganda conveniently chosen to aid your selective amnesia.

Tiptronic:

Hezbollah attempted to carry out cross border attacks against IDF military, and capture soldiers, which once proved effective at negotiating prisoner exchanges. But that had nothing to do with the summer war. The war ignited over the capture of the Israeli soldiers and the attack on their patrol (supposedly)

I hate to argue with liars honestly? Hizbullah had nothing to do with capturing Gilad Shalit (even though they are presently negotiating over his release), the murder of 4 of his colleagues in a transborder raid that sparked the war?
So the IDF captured their own soldier just so they coould go practice bombing raids on "innocent" hizbullah terrorists?

Tiptronic:

Fact was, Israel was going to attack anyway, it was just a matter of time. [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/syria/story/0,,2029732,00.html]Olmert said sohimself[/url]

I agree, very few countries can endure almost daily bombings of innocent kindergarten children for 6 yrs unprovoked. If it were the muslims they would hvae been crying "oppression".

Tiptronic:

Because Muslims care what happens to their brothers on the other side of the world.

Yeah, the rest of us dont care what happens to our brothers killed by terrorist bombs and air craft hijackings.

Tiptronic:

The fact that some Christians were also persecuted in China doesnt justify the killings of Muslims there. You do acknowledge the persecution and suffering of Muslims in such places don't you?

Where is the proof of muslims killed in china? Who is persecutting muslims where? The same muslims who go about persecuting christians?

Tiptronic:

Exactly @ the bold part. And right now, countless wars are being waged on Muslim lands, so its only natural for them to react.

The muslims are the ones fighting themselves. this idea of blaming everyone for ur own self inflicted problems is getting too threadbare. Spin another believable tale. The rest of us are tired of ur constant whinning.

Tiptronic:

Let me know when you hear of mass murder against Christians in these Muslim enclaves. Because at the moment it seems the Christian West is doing all the killing of Muslims.

Let me know when you hear of mass murder of muslims in western countries. hypocrites!

Tiptronic:

Question: do you expect Muslims to be subjugated like this and not fight back?

Who is subjugating you? that the subjugation you all cry about ONLY occurs in muslim nations says a great deal. I would have spared a thot if you were being subjugated in Europe or America. But instead you loud mouthed liars and murderers run to the west, enjoy rights that are NOT available in your theocratic dictatorships and start bleating about subjugation.
There are prominent mosques and muslim groups in western countries acting unchallenged with full rights to challenge the states where they exist, can a christian group obtain the same rights in afghanistan?

Answer that question first before you continue whinning about subjugation!

Tiptronic:

The right not be slaughtered by a 2000lb bomb from a B-52.

Give us our own rights to knight anyone we choose without declaring a day of rage on us! Give us a right to be able to go to work on trains without fear of satchet bombs. Give us the rights to go to work in skyscrapers without fearing another 9-11. Give us the rights to demand rights in afghanistan as christian groups. Give us the rights to read bibles in Saudi Arabia just as your own qurans fill our libraries here (even though you cry that we subjugate you). Give us the rights NOT to have our daughters be forced to wear headscarves to school in Kano.

Give us those rights first before you start demanding rights! Muslims love to demand what they deny themselves and others. Sons of a pillaging murderer and peadophile!

Tiptronic:

The right not to be piled naked into pyramids and humiliated in prisons.

Not even you liars give your own criminals the rights not to be sentenced to jail so stop crying.

Tiptronic:

The right not to be caged without trial and tortured in secret prisons overseas.

Until you stop gathering to plot attacks against western nations for no reason at all, long may you continue to be turtored in secret prisons.

Tiptronic:

The right not to be shot at or killed in your country. Etc etc ad nauseam.

You murderers did not even accord Theo Van Gogh the right not to be slaughtered in the streets in his own country!

The same rights you granted the German tourists killed in Jordan for "walking on islamic lands"? Hypocrites!

Tiptronic:

I'm talking about death and oppression in a grand scale here.

So long as you keep the death and oppression in your own countries people like me could care less.

Tiptronic:

Muslims have ever right to voice their opposition to any Knighthood, is that against any law. Are Qurans allowed in the Vatican?

What a two faced hypocrite. What right have muslims in pakistan to protest against the decision of the British government to knight a British citizen? Was he knighted in Pakistan? Of course you all quickly use the law when it suits your evil and selfish demands.
Qurans i'm sure are allowed in the vatican, the pope has prayed in a mosque before! Are bibles allowed in Saudi Arabia?

Tiptronic:

As for headscarves, remember its the Western democracy of France, the civilised country, the one that boasts religious freedom and all that tripe that is banning such a thing. Muslims have never claimed to be shining democracies etc etc , but the west does yet, hypocritical as they are, ban the headscarf.

Awww see the sons of belial. Use the very freedoms of the west to destroy them. so since the west claims to be democracies they have to pander to ur every whim? You demand rights in France that are non-existent in ur 12th century backward nation of afghanistan? If you want to wear headscarves please go back to Iran where they arrest women for not wearing them properly!

Why should the west not ban headscarves?

Tiptronic:

All the rights of that country actually. Don't know where you live, but here, its every citizens right to scream at the top of their lungs what they want and how they want it. Whether anyone will actually listen to them is a seperate matter entirely, but to answer your question, people have every right to do so, apparently.

Tell us our rights in afghanistan first before we listen to you! Can i walk around Kandahar with my girlfriend in jeans?

Tiptronic:

Why should be bother about Human Rights, when we are losing the very Humans those Rights are supposed to protect? But I suppose its OK to kill and slaughter Muslims around the world.

lol you dont even have any rights so what can you be asking for? Muslims slaughter themselves around the world, they dont need US bombs to help them.

Tiptronic:

Quite a bit of misinformation presented there David. Did you think I wouldnt know my stuff? Wise up my friend, and provide sources and references like I have if you want to maintain integrity.

yup dear, so much misinformation, bold faced lies, hypocrisy and propaganda from you my boy. Try not to throw stones if u live in glass houses!

@ triptonic, nice tete a tete we have here eh, maybe i should also open up with your obviously false "greetings".   

Maybe christians are not in the news as much as islam because you don't see christians using children as suicide bombers in the name of Jesus eh?   that can't be so difficult to understand. the day you see christians hijack two aircraft and crash it into towers in Egypt please let me know.

So you have conceded to my orginal point: Muslims are in the media a lot more and are potrayed in a negative light.
Also glad you finally conceded that the Tigers are in fact a secular group that often use suicide bombings.  That is good.

Even you should know that is absolute hogwash! If the Iraqis are "fighting for independence from subjugation by western powers" why are sunnis bombing shiite mosques and shiites kidnapping and killing sunnis? Are they western powers? Why are the kurds not fighting for independence too or are they no longer part of iraq?

The sectarian strife is no more than idiotic massacres.  That has nothing to do with the resistance.  It is the resistance that is fighting the Americans and their collaborators, in order to expel them from their land.  The line of thought you have used is common for people that do not understand what is happening in Iraq.  They just see it in a simple minded USA vs Iraqis (and group the resistance with sectarian murderers), when it clearly is not the case.

Maybe if you had kept your suicide bombers, fatwas and days of rage to urselves we wont even care to know if islam is a religion or a cult.

You get what you asked for

awww see muslims sniveling. They must be really oppressed indeed what a pity! Where are the muslims who are "killed daily" and who are the ones killing them? Americans, Jews, Russians or Germans? Last i checked the muslims in Iraq, Lebanon, Darfur, Pakistan, Palestine are so busy killing themselves that at this rate there will be no muslim left in the next 20 years.

Please provide sources for your statements just like I have done at every single point.  To think Muslims have killed each other in far greater numbers than non-Muslims have, is just silly.

Now here's the hypocrisy of your statement, if indeed western powers are "oppressing" muslims why are muslims the largest block of immigrants to these same "oppressive" western nations? Why don't you all deport urselves enmasse in protest for this o so painful "oppression"?

Doesn’t that follow?  If indeed Muslims are the most displaced people in the world, the people that need to flee their countries, doesn’t that confirm my point that they are probably one of the most oppressed groups in the world?  Two of the largest immigrant groups to the UK were Afghan and Iraqis.  Whats the link?  Both countries are under murderous occupation, so track back and look at what is causing the mass emmigration from their own lands.

Nice to see you conceded tomy point about the failed states.

I agree, Afghanistan was so safe that its citizens were glad to see the taliban go.

Sorry that doesn’t even make sense.  The popularity of a regime has got nothing to do with how safe that place is.  Unless you can prove otherwise, I stand by my statement that Afghanistan on the whole was safer than it is today.  Back then you didn’t have to worry about having bombs dropped on you, being shot at in the market or your house raided and your family taken prisoner.  I should know, Im Afghan.

     You mean with all the wealth of evidence linking the "magnificent 19" to al qaeda you can still come up with this tripe? This must be the joke of the century, the taliban actually considered giving OBL to the US?   who are u fooling?

Another simple argument.  Sources will aid me.

There is no ‘wealth of evidence’ linking OBL to 9/11.  If there was, the US would have charged him with such a crime, would have clearly stated it on his Most Wanted Page (like clear references to his involvement with Tanzania/Kenya) but there isnt.  Did you miss the quote I gave you?  Here it is again, clear as day:

When asked why there is no mention of 9/11 on Bin Laden's Most Wanted web page, [Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI] said, "The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden's Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11." ( Muckraker Report )

Furthermore, you fail to prove how the Taliban are actively recruiting foreign terrorists.

No the Egyptians and Jordanians are not involved in palestinian affairs simply because they don't care and "palestine" is nothing but a tool in the hands of islamists to achieve the goal of destroying the jews. Filistine? Need i remind you that the ancient filistines died out well before the 5th century BC and were certainly NOT arabs!

There is a difference about not caring about a people and actively oppressing them.

Please answer this two questions and i will not bother you on this issue again:

1. Who was the president of palestine in 1930?
2. Why did the palestinians crying of "oppression" today not fight for Gaza and the west bank (judea/samaria) before 1967 when they were territories of Egypt and Jordan respectively?

Both questions you can find using Google.  But they are not relevant.  Are you disputing the oppression of Palestinians today because of what happened decades ago?? Lets talk about today.  It’s the Israelis who are the main oppressing force of the Palestinian people.  Do you dispute that?

Really? Your warped sense of logic defies belief! What land would the Lebanese army be defending? The very lands that have been over-run by a foreign funded terrorist group it no longer has millitary control over? Why do you cry "defend your land" when Isreal retaliates but keep mute when hizbullah uses those same lands as launching pads to attack Isreal? Smacks of hypocrisy doesnt it?

Lebanon was being attack from all possible avenues by the Israelis.  If they really cared they would have defended their land, though some actually did.  Note how the Lebanese Christians were such loud mouths but when the war started, they were nowhere to be seen.  Hezbollah are a Lebanese group, made up of Lebanese.  Prove me otherwise.  Where else do you want these Lebanese fighters to fight from?  Its their land, they are Lebanese.

I give you the words of PM Siniora himself:
“Lebanese PM Siniora: Hezbollah played important role in liberating land from Israel. Israel`s reaction is disproportionate. High time Israel gives back occupied territory of Shaba.”

Glad you conceded to my point about Somalia.

Isnt it amazing that you conveniently ignored the fact that Saddam INVADED kuwait and had to be driven out by US forces in 1991? Or is it only "invasion" when it is the US army and the muslim world turns a blind eye when the invading force is muslim?

Isnt it also amazing that you hypocritically ignored the fact that Saddam killed thousands of kurds with chemical weapons? Or are the kurds no more muslims? i don't remember hearing any of u crying about "oppression" then eh.

Yes, the secular leader Saddam did invade Kuwait back then.  And the US attacked back then.  Does that justify this Iraq war happening today  Yes that was an invasion, did I say it wasn’t?  But you keep on bringing up the past to justify present actions.  He did also kill a lot of Kurds, and?  Saddam was a brutal dictator, an oppressor and murderer and was a friend of the US back then.  I get this funny feeling you expect me to defend Saddam when clearly he’s just as bad as Bush, and was a Secular leader. 

I'm sure the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait had UN backing. The US does not need to invade Zimbabwe neither are we bothered, Zimbabweans don't go around bombing innocent people in the name of Mugabe!

Are you living in the past?  Why are you refuting my points about the current 2003 invasion of Iraq with what happened back in Kuwait?  The invasion of Kuwait was wrong. FACT. Happened and the consequences followed.  Now we’re talking about 2003, keep up.  Was the 2003 Iraq War backed by the UN.  Want sources?

The second part is sweet.  Tell me were Iraqis bombing innocent civilians in the name of Saddam?  Did Iraq ever attack USA or UK in recent years?  So that was the justification of the Iraq war: the fact (read lie) that Iraqis were international terrorists, attacking USA or other western countries?  The very fact that the Iraq war was a preemptive strike (words of the US) shows there was no provocation to attack.  They didn’t attack to respond to any act of aggression from the Iraqi side.  They attacked based on lies that Saddam had WMDs, and could launch an ICBM within 45 minutes at the UK.  Want sources?

It is easy to cry about invasion when it happens to be the US or Isreal. Where were you when Syria invaded and occupied Lebanon for 25 years?

Were was I? I wasn’t even born.  Hows that for you.  So far the conficts around the world that I have been around for and old enough to understand all centre on invasion by western powers.  Are you going to ask me how I felt about the Syrian invasion back then even though I wasn’t on this earth?  Again, we are taking current events.  Why do keep bringing up the past to justify the present.  I have no problem with you highlighting the conflicts in the past sure.  But you can’t expect to use those events to justify current ones.  Its like saying the justification for invading Iraq was the Syrian invasion of Lebanon.  WHAT??!!

Where was this muslim world when Saddam invaded Kuwait in 1991?

I dunno, I wasn’t there.  So lets keep it to events that are recent.

Compare Iraqi death toll in 2003 to that in 2007 and it is clear more than 90% of deaths are not from US guns but from muslim suicide bombs! Remove your blinkered glasses, it only takes a few brain cells to work that out!

Why stop at 2003?  Compare your 2007 to 2001 and tell me what the reason was?  Were there any suicide bombers bombing Iraqi markets in Saddams time?  The US admits Iraq is a lost war, a total disaster.  They will leave Iraq in a worse state than when they entered. 

Another article that feeds your propaganda? No thank you. Awww robert Fisk again? We have thrashed out his lies elsewhere on this thread, too late.

No, its not Aljazeera.  It’s a reputable British newspaper.  Why in such denial?

Isrea DID NOT attack Lebanon, she attacked a legitimate threat using Lebanon as a convenient shield for its crimes.
Crimes that Lebanon conveniently chose to turn a blind eye to. Hizbullah rained rockets on Isreali villages without response for 6 years, why were u not crying about oppression?

Hizbullah rained 13000 rockets with ball bearings within the space of 1 month yet you chose to keep quiet. What do you consider a proper response from the Isrealis? That they fold their arms or fight back with sticks and stones?

Erm…yes Israel attacked Lebanon.  It was IDF that crossed over into southern lebanon, it was Israeli planes that bombed Lebanon “back to the stone age” and it was Israel that shelled southern Lebanon as well as enfore a naval blockade. 

Next, how many Israelis died during these “6 years of Hezbollah rocket fire”?  Sources please.  Next, it is a fact that Israel had far more deadly weapons than Hezbollah.  You may want to compare these little ball bearings which only killed a relatively few civilians (43) to the cluster bombs dropped on Lebanon that killed hundreds.

Israel has used artillery-fired cluster munitions in populated areas of Lebanon, Human Rights Watch said today

13000 rockets?  Please tell me that was a typo and not a blantant lie?  Provide proof (which you will not find to back up your figure) or withdraw your statement.

So why did Israel level the civilian suburbs of Beirut if they were after Hezbollah?  That was deliberately targetting civilians, courtesy of the “only democracy in the middle east”.

“According to media reports, the USA is transferring GBU 28 bunker-buster bombs containing depleted-uranium warheads to Israel for use against targets in Lebanon.”

“There are also reports that Israel has used vacuum bombs in this conflict.”

“There are reports that Israel has used incendiary weapons, such as white phosphorous shells, in attacks in Lebanon.”

Source: Amnesty International

[url=http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2095871,00.html] EU: Israel Uses "Disproportionate Force" in Lebanon[/url] (Are you going to claim the European Union is a propganda machine too?)

No they did not achieve their aims because to do so would have meant the complete destruction of Lebanon since hizbullah's idea of war is to wear burqas and fire rockets from their grandfathers living room so they can cry about "oppression" as soon as Isreali bombs land in retaliation.

Lets quote, you are saying Israel’s aim was complete destruction of Lebanon.  We all knew that, but thanks for the confirmation.
Again, I ask why Israel completely levelled a civilian suburb (well away from the frontline and no way near rocket launch sites) in southern beirut where hundreds died.  Why bomb civilian structures like power plants, bridges, roads, etc?

Now we know most of those accusations are false and stage managed by pallywood to whip gullible people like you into a frenzy. And Hamas and Fatah are innocent bystanders in this Isreali "dastardly kidnappings"? What a bunch of decietful demons!

It would be wise to read the article before making yourself look stupid. The Israeli secuirty forces themselves say:

“Another Israeli security source said an undercover unit had gone to Jenin to arrest the three men, but "al-Saadi identified them and fired," lightly wounding one soldier.”
So are the Israeli Security forces part of this Pallywood nonsense…lol

Also, it is an act of state terrorism for a state to carry out assasination on others, regardless if they are 'terrorists', according to the UN.

Perhaps you might be more interested in the number of civillians who were killed by Hamas in their invasion of Gaza. Care to know how many civillians have died in the Lebanese army onslaught on palestinian refugee camps yet?

Can you keep a coherent argument.  We were talking about Lebanon and you suddenly jump thousands of miles south to Hamas.  Care to refute my figures on the Lebanon war?  No, then you conceded that Hezbollah killed more miltary and IDF killed more civilians.  Period.

Maybe because the IDF don't launch their own rockets from living rooms, mosques, synagogues and on busy streets. If you think outside your islamic fog of deception that should tell you something too.

Look at the figures my friend.  Which super duper rocket can be launched from the southern suburbs of Beirut  The figues reveal who murdered more.

Irrelevant tripe! Maybe the Isrealis should teach the Lebanese how to build bomb shelters for their citizens and stop hizbullah from using residential buildings as millitary posts. I doubt if anyone has invented smart bombs that can pick out terrorists in burqas firing rockets from a busy market!

Relevant actually. You said, “Do i also need to demonstrate how difficult it is to pick out an enemy that chooses to launch missiles from mosques and residential houses?”

And I responded with how was it possible for Hezbollah to achieve precision using inferior weapons, that resulted in nearly three times more military deaths than civlians, yet Israel, with state of the art weapons, managed to kill nearly two/three times civlians as they did Hezbollah?  That is a point to ponder.  And it is very relevant.  I haven’t gone off on a safari and brought up another conflict into question from another time period like you often do.

the one source i provided about hamas ideology and you fled the thread in shame. Your "sources" here are nothing more than propaganda conveniently chosen to aid your selective amnesia.

You did?  I must check it out.  This is the first time I have seen you document your opinion using sources and references…it’s a miracle

My sources cant be propganda because I have quoted western newspapers, Amnesty International or UN, the FBI, etc etc…not even a mention of Aljazeera.  If you regard everything as propganda, you must be blind to world events, because I must ask where you get your info from??  As for the bold part, that’s how a debate usually works. I argue my point and you counter, with sources if need be

I hate to argue with liars honestly? Hizbullah had nothing to do with capturing Gilad Shalit (even though they are presently negotiating over his release), the murder of 4 of his colleagues in a transborder raid that sparked the war?

If I has said the above that “Hizbullah had nothing to do with capturing Gilad Shalit” then indeed I am a liar.  But you have misread, as I never said such a thing.  What I said was the reason for the summer war was not the capture of the 2 soldiers.  Israel planned it months before ( a premeditated attack).  And I have quoted no other person than the authoritative man on the issue, Ehud Olmert, the Israeli PM himself. You CANNOT claim even he is propaganda or Pallywood

“Preparations for Israel's war in Lebanon last summer were drawn up at least four months before two Israeli soldiers were kidnapped by Hizbullah in July, Ehud Olmert, the prime minister, has admitted.”

Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/syria/story/0,,2029732,00.html

So the IDF captured their own soldier just so they coould go practice bombing raids on "innocent" hizbullah terrorists?

Why would I make such a statement that can easily be verified by research?  I don’t.  Unlikne your tamil tiger statement.  Please see above for clarification since you have misunderstood.

I agree, very few countries can endure almost daily bombings of innocent kindergarten children for 6 years unprovoked.

If it were the muslims they would hvae been crying "oppression".

Conceded again, thanks.  Also, can you give me a source for these awful and constant rocket attacks that killed so many during 2000-2006.  Thank you.

Conceded that Beslan isnt in Chechnya. Good.

Yeah, the rest of us don't care what happens to our brothers killed by terrorist bombs and air craft hijackings.

Well that’s your problem, because we do.  And here’s a newsflash for you: 9/11 was wrong wrong wrong!

Where is the proof of muslims killed in china? Who is persecutting muslims where? The same muslims who go about persecuting christians?

Source time!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Muslim#Persecution_of_Muslims_in_China

I agree, both Muslims and Christians are being killed there by the Chinese similarly.  So there isnt any point to argue here.

The muslims are the ones fighting themselves. this idea of blaming everyone for your own self inflicted problems is getting too threadbare. Spin another believable tale. The rest of us are tired of your constant whinning.

So the US is not occupying Iraq or Afghanistan, or helping with the Somalia occupation?

If you are tired of the constant whining, get western troops out of Muslim lands.  And if these Muslims are still stupid enough to kill each other, it wont be any of your problem so you needn’t worry nor listen to any more whining anymore.

Let me know when you hear of mass murder of muslims in western countries. hypocrites!

Although Muslim are discriminated against, there is no mass murder of Muslims in the West.  So what’s your point.  We agree then?

Who is subjugating you? that the subjugation you all cry about ONLY occurs in muslim nations says a great deal. I would have spared a thot if you were being subjugated in Europe or America. But instead you loud mouthed liars and murderers run to the west, enjoy rights that are NOT available in your theocratic dictatorships and start bleating about subjugation.

There are prominent mosques and muslim groups in western countries acting unchallenged with full rights to challenge the states where they exist, can a christian group obtain the same rights in afghanistan?

Define Subjugation= conquest: the act of conquering

It is the western powers that are conquering muslim lands. FACT.

America has invaded and occupied which other non-muslim land that you want me to cry about??  If they are killing innocent non-muslims in non-muslim lands, tell me, because I will also lambast them for such murder.

Which Christian country is being occupied by another Muslim country?

Answer that question first before you continue whinning about subjugation!

The fact is USA/UK are occupying Muslim lands namley Iraq and Afghanistan.  Yes I enjoy a bit of freedom from being bombed by a B52 here in the west.  And I would also love for my fellow Muslims around the world to enjoy the same freedom of not being killed or slaughted in their own lands.  Whats the problem there?  For example I much prefer living in the UK than say Egypt, which is a ‘democratic’ friend of the US, where they torture and imprison their people.  Same goes with Pakistan.  Such toadies like Musharaf, Mubarak, and various other Arab rulers need to go.  They have sold their countries to the West, and do nothing for the interests of their people.  Muslims want them out!

Give us our own rights to knight anyone we choose without declaring a day of rage on us!

You have the right to knight Elvis if you so wish.  Go ahead.  Be my guest.  Don’t expect us to cheer in the streets about it, but yes, go ahead.

Give us a right to be able to go to work on trains without fear of satchet bombs.

If I could, I would.

Give us the rights to go to work in skyscrapers without fearing another 9-11.

If I could, I would.

Give us the rights to demand rights in afghanistan as christian groups.Give us the rights to read bibles in Saudi Arabia just as your own qurans fill our libraries here (even though you cry that we subjugate you).

Just as soon as we can do the same in the Vatican.

Give us the rights NOT to have our daughters be forced to wear headscarves to school in Kano.

Give us those rights first before you start demanding rights!

Just as soon as democratic western countries like France and secular Turkey let us wear the headscarf.

Muslims love to demand what they deny themselves and others. Sons of a pillaging murderer and peadophile!

What lovely words of a Christian!  Pilgrim, here’s another perfect example to further argue my case in that other thread: “Sons of a pillaging murderer and peadophile!”

Not even you liars give your own criminals the rights not to be sentenced to jail so stop crying.

What?  Convicted criminals don’t have a right to NOT go to jail…lol…what kind of a jucidiary is that?? Lol  Read it again, it makes no sense.  So you want us to free our criminals

Until you stop gathering to plot attacks against western nations for no reason at all, long may you continue to be turtored in secret prisons.

Firstly, nothing happens without reason.  Only someone ill-formed would say such a thing. 
Here’s the crucial difference between me and you.  I vehemently denounce 9/11 and 7/7 etc.  I also vehemently denounce Abu Ghraib, Gitmo, Iraq etc.  Yet you support Gitmo and the torture of Muslims and at the same time support the Iraq war, Afghanistan etc.

So tell me, where is the love?  Me or you?  Whose the bloodthirsty one?

You murderers did not even accord Theo Van Gogh the right not to be slaughtered in the streets in his own country!

Yes that was a wrong action. But that is one criminal action compared to a whole myriad of oppression, and killings (like Haditha etc) that happens to Muslims.  One vs Many.

The same rights you granted the German tourists killed in Jordan for "walking on islamic lands"? Hypocrites!

How can I be a hypocrite when I condemn all these murders  On either side.  By definition, a hypocrite must denounce the killings of Muslims and support the killings of Westerners like Van Gogh.  That is NOT the case with me.  I condemn both.  However, maybe you would like to look at yourself.  You seem to have no problem with the killings of Muslims (even support their torture), yet you condemn the killing of Van Gogh.  Not hypocrisy there?

So long as you keep the death and oppression in your own countries people like me could care less.

Of course, tell us something new.  You don’t give a damn about how many Muslims or non-Muslims are killed in foreign lands (i.e. if it doesn’t bother you, you don’t care).  Like Ive always said get the troops out.

What a two faced hypocrite. What right have muslims in pakistan to protest against the decision of the British government to knight a British citizen? Was he knighted in Pakistan? Of course you all quickly use the law when it suits your evil and selfish demands.

They can voice their opposition if they want.  Whether you feel it is justified or not, they can do it.  What happened to freedom of speech here?  Is the UK a dictatorship where no-one is allowed to critisize the governments actions?  No. 

Qurans i'm sure are allowed in the vatican, the pope has prayed in a mosque before! Are bibles allowed in Saudi Arabia?

Bibles are allowed in Saudi, if kept privately.  But I have no qualms about the Vatican.  If Catholics want a place that is solely for them and their churches, in land with a Catholic majority, then fair play.  They can have it.  Catholics can have the Vatican and Muslims can have Mecca and Medinah. 

Awww see the sons of belial. Use the very freedoms of the west to destroy them. so since the west claims to be democracies they have to pander to your every whim? You demand rights in France that are non-existent in your 12th century backward nation of afghanistan? If you want to wear headscarves please go back to Iran where they arrest women for not wearing them properly!

Can I also tell the Christian ex-pats in Saudi to get lost back to their own country if they want to build Churches or openly express their faiths? (no, because Im not a bigot)

Yes both Muslims and the West has these restrictions on religion (e.g. banning headscarves in France and banning open declaration of faith in Suadi.  But this is the crucial difference:  Saudi doesn’t and has never claimed to be a democracy, nor have they ever boasted their freedom of religion.  But the Western France states it’s a democracy, has freedom of expression and religion and all that stuff.  That is the difference.

Why should the west not ban headscarves?

Fine, the West can ban headscarves.  If they really think Islam is a threat, that they feel they must ban the headscarf, then so be it, let them ban.  But if they ban, then I don’t ever want to hear these countries gloat about how democratic they are, or how they have such glorious freedom or speech or religion, of about how tolerant they are.  That is the crux of the matter.

Tell us our rights in afghanistan first before we listen to you! Can i walk around Kandahar with my girlfriend in jeans?

Not many, but when has Afghanistan ever claimed to be a democratic or free country  On the other hand, the West does.

lol you don't even have any rights so what can you be asking for? Muslims slaughter themselves around the world, they don't need US bombs to help them.

So Muslims have no rights now?  I cant say Im surprised at your attitude…oh the hate, the fear the despising us Muslims.  I can feel it through your words.  How it must be so painful carrying all that hate around with you.

yup dear, so much misinformation, bold faced lies, hypocrisy and propaganda from you my boy. Try not to throw stones if u live in glass houses!

Show me the lies!  I have refuted your points to death.

Are the Tamil Tigers a Hindu Group?  See how points you have not answered of mine because you were wrong.

I can accept I’ve given you propaganda if I used Aljazeera (although theres nothing wrong with them), Al-Manar or IRNA.  But I havent.

I have used:
Wikipedia
Guardian
Independent
News.com.au (article first read on yahoo news)
FBI themselves
Ehud Olmert
Fundforpeace
Amnesty International (could also look at UN here)
European Union
9/11 commision report
Washinton Post

If you discredit these sources as propaganda then you really are left blind.  These are hard hitting sources, that you cannot refute.

Maybe cross reference your post with sources then I will be able to take you more seriously, and you have a better position to shout Hypocrite/Liar/etc.

This could well be my last post to you, because he do not meet my standards of debate, if you post misinformation, no sources an have a basic understanding of world affairs.  Good day.

Peace!

I would love to spend all day debating with you, but unfortunately I dont have the time. BUt you dont need me to teach you. You can find out about these conflicts for yourself. Good luck!

Peace

@ Tiptronic
I read your reply to Davidylan. And while i congratulate you on the articulate way you have presented what you believe in, i will disagree with you on a few points.

You appeal to the undemocratic nature of most middle easten governments as an excuse for some of their actions.

Fine, the West can ban headscarves. If they really think Islam is a threat, that they feel they must ban the headscarf, then so be it, let them ban. But if they ban, then I don’t ever want to hear these countries gloat about how democratic they are, or how they have such glorious freedom or speech or religion, of about how tolerant they are. That is the crux of the matter.

I dont think its aquestion of democracy. It is rather a muslim thing. Even in democratic Pakistan there was still a law against muslims converting to christianity. the heavy sensorship on christianity in muslim countries is simply based on their religious beliefs. Even in democratic Nigeria, female students are forced to wear scarves in kano.

In the west muslims are as free as in any muslim country. Truth be told muslims are freer in the west than they ever were in Muslim Fundamentalist Taliban Afghanistan.

Even in Muslim countries with democratic governments (Egypt, Algeria, Turkey) , there are muslim organisations trying to overthrow the government either democratically (Egypt) or violently (Algeria) and install a government based on the sharia (the type of government you even admit is undemocratic). They all base their desire on the Koran. The situation with religious freedoms in Muslim countries is exactly how the muslims want it.

Headscarves, if i remember were not the only thing banned in france. Christian, Sikh, Jewish and Christian stuff were baned. Only the Muslims saw it as oppression. The US supreme court banned prayer in schools and bad as it was, nobody saw it as oppression. If Islamic prayes were been offered in schools at that time and had been banned alongside christian prayers, there would have been riots in pakistan and everybody from hamas, to hezbollah to muslim brotherhood will see it as oppression.

Spot on lafile! I just didnt bother to respond to tiptronics long winding treatise that is essentialy saying nothing.

It is amazing how someone can rationalize away dictatorship and intolerance on the basis of "afterall they dont claim to be democratic" and yet citizens of these cesspools of hate keep whinning for the freedoms they dont enjoy in their countries on the basis of "afterall the west claims to be democratic. . ."

such astute thought processes.

im sick of islam, and muslims. u guys are such hypocrites. God forbid u all ruled the world, u all would bomb, rape, lie and kill each other to death

@ tiptronic, i will prefer to pick and choose which of your flawed premises to bother myself with. The level of intellectual myopia in your write up is alarming.

Tiptronic:

So you have conceded to my orginal point: Muslims are in the media a lot more and are potrayed in a negative light.

maybe you can tell us in what better light the media should have portrayed muslims after 9-11, 7-7, islamabad, bali bombings, Iraq, Sudan, Palestine, Yemen, Lebanon, Nairobi. Or you expect the media to invent positive stories for you?

Tiptronic:

Doesn’t that follow?  If indeed Muslims are the most displaced people in the world, the people that need to flee their countries, doesn’t that confirm my point that they are probably one of the most oppressed groups in the world?  Two of the largest immigrant groups to the UK were Afghan and Iraqis.  Whats the link?  Both countries are under murderous occupation, so track back and look at what is causing the mass emmigration from their own lands.

Balderdash! Muslims are the most displaced people on earth? what of the Jews and Africans who endured centuries of slavery? Who are those who displaced the muslims in Iraq? The Americans or the intolerant and murderous sons of allah themselves? Who are those displacing you in afghanistan? the US army of the taliban and their cousins al qaeda? who are those displacing the Lebanese, Egyptians, Palestinians in Gaza, Saudi Arabians?
American soldiers too?

What sort of special "oppression" do muslims go thru and who are these mysterious oppressors that only they can see?

Tiptronic:

Lebanon was being attack from all possible avenues by the Israelis.  If they really cared they would have defended their land, though some actually did.  Note how the Lebanese Christians were such loud mouths but when the war started, they were nowhere to be seen.  Hezbollah are a Lebanese group, made up of Lebanese.  Prove me otherwise.  Where else do you want these Lebanese fighters to fight from?  Its their land, they are Lebanese.

From a complete tool you have eventually shown urself up as a liar. Cant say i'm surprised.
Hezbollah are a Lebanese group? - No it was formed by the Iranian revolutionary guards stationed in Lebanon during the Syrian occupation in 1982. Hizbullah recieves support, financial aid and arms NOT from Lebanon but from Syria and Iran.

Tiptronic:

Erm…yes Israel attacked Lebanon.  It was IDF that crossed over into southern lebanon, it was Israeli planes that bombed Lebanon “back to the stone age” and it was Israel that shelled southern Lebanon as well as enfore a naval blockade.  

Erm yes but it was hizbullah who crossed into Isreal to kill 4 soldiers and capture 1. Maybe you should consider stating your history from the begining and not cherry picking those that suit you.

Tiptronic:

Next, how many Israelis died during these “6 years of Hezbollah rocket fire”?  Sources please.  Next, it is a fact that Israel had far more deadly weapons than Hezbollah.  You may want to compare these little ball bearings which only killed a relatively few civilians (43) to the cluster bombs dropped on Lebanon that killed hundreds.

These are times when ii wonder whether intellectual reasoning is automatically impossible once you are a muslim.
Take your first statement in bold - Was hezbollah's 6 yr unprovoked raining of bombs and missiles on Isreal excusable on the grounds that a negligible number of Isrealis died? So as long as no one is killed it is perfectly lawful to rain bombs with ball bearings on me?

Your revisionism and hypocrisy is legendary! Little ball bearings that killed only a relatively few civillians? and those "relatively few civillians" dont matter because afterall only a few of them died or they were just isreali apes and pigs? Why should a party that considers itself built on the principles of a religion of "peace" have weapons in the first place? Is it a nation on its own?
What did you expect the IDF to use in response to those "little ball bearings that only killed a relatively few civillians"? Ball bearings that kill only a relatively few terrorists?

Tiptronic:

So why did Israel level the civilian suburbs of Beirut if they were after Hezbollah?  That was deliberately targetting civilians, courtesy of the “only democracy in the middle east”.

Why was hezbollah launching rockets from civillian areas in the first place? and please stop this propaganda of "deliberately targetting civilians" because you hypocritical muslims do exactly the same! Who were those hezbolah rockets aimed at? Isrealii military sites or kindergarten schools in Sderot?

Tiptronic:

If you are tired of the constant whining, get western troops out of Muslim lands.  And if these Muslims are still stupid enough to kill each other, it wont be any of your problem so you needn’t worry nor listen to any more whining anymore.

and if you are tired of whinning about "oppression" GET OUT OF WESTERN COUNTRIES YOU HYPOCRITES"! Go back to your fancy lands in the arabian deserts and stay there! No one has the time to go hunting you to oppress you in caves if you dont export your ideology of murder and hate to us!

Tiptronic:

It is the western powers that are conquering muslim lands. FACT.

And muslims conquered western lands FACT! No? Which muslim lands have been "conquered" so far? Let me know so i can emigrate there.

Tiptronic:

Which Christian country is being occupied by another Muslim country?

This is the 21st century, any attempt to do such a silly thing will be met with maximum force! The days when mohammed and his murderous band of robbers went about conquering others in the name of allah is truly over. IF you tried such again, the overwhelming response will render the crusades a mere child's play.

Tiptronic:

The fact is USA/UK are occupying Muslim lands namley Iraq and Afghanistan.  Yes I enjoy a bit of freedom from being bombed by a B52 here in the west.  And I would also love for my fellow Muslims around the world to enjoy the same freedom of not being killed or slaughted in their own lands.  Whats the problem there?  For example I much prefer living in the UK than say Egypt, which is a ‘democratic’ friend of the US, where they torture and imprison their people.  Same goes with Pakistan.  Such toadies like Musharaf, Mubarak, and various other Arab rulers need to go.  They have sold their countries to the West, and do nothing for the interests of their people.  Muslims want them out!

Moan! Everything is the fault of the west. Mubarak imprisons and tortures his citizens, it must be Bush's fault. AFghanistan is a cesspool of poverty and destruction - yes that must be Bush too. Pakistan? Yep you said it, the west is at fault too. AND YOU HYPOCRITE CAN SIT THERE ENJOYING FREEDOOMS OF THE WEST?

Tiptronic:

Just as soon as democratic western countries like France and secular Turkey let us wear the headscarf.

Christians and hindus are also barred fom wearing headscarves in France, only the muslims are declaring a day of rage. You want to wear a scarf please go to Iran else live by French laws afterall no one forced you there.

Tiptronic:

What?  Convicted criminals don’t have a right to NOT go to jail…lol…what kind of a jucidiary is that?? Lol  Read it again, it makes no sense.  So you want us to free our criminals

that is EXACTLY what you hypocrites want Isreal to do in exchange for Gilad Shalit!

Tiptronic:

Bibles are allowed in Saudi, if kept privately.  But I have no qualms about the Vatican.  If Catholics want a place that is solely for them and their churches, in land with a Catholic majority, then fair play.  They can have it.  Catholics can have the Vatican and Muslims can have Mecca and Medinah.  

You make me laugh!   Bibles are allowed in Saudi if they are kept private? What is the point having a bible if it will be detected at the airport, destroyed and me jailed or killed for owning a bible? How do you privately smuggle a bible into Saudi Arabia? If the US banned korans it is hypocrites like you that will be the first to carry placards crying about "oppression".

Tiptronic:

Can I also tell the Christian ex-pats in Saudi to get lost back to their own country if they want to build Churches or openly express their faiths? (no, because I'm not a bigot)

yep! As soon as murderous like you board the next flight back to 12th century Kandahar and STAY THERE!

Tiptronic:

Yes both Muslims and the West has these restrictions on religion (e.g. banning headscarves in France and banning open declaration of faith in Suadi.  But this is the crucial difference:  Saudi doesn’t and has never claimed to be a democracy, nor have they ever boasted their freedom of religion.  But the Western France states it’s a democracy, has freedom of expression and religion and all that stuff.  That is the difference.

this is inverterately stupid. So siince Saudi does not claim to be democratic it can do as it pleases and then turns around to expect others to accomodate their own demands? What a bunch of bigots! The west has NO restrictions on religion, the only demand is that you practice whatever you believe in PRIVATELY! Dont come here demanding for a mosque in the white house.

Tiptronic:

So Muslims have no rights now?  I can't say I'm surprised at your attitude…oh the hate, the fear the despising us Muslims.  I can feel it through your words.  How it must be so painful carrying all that hate around with you.

Start with the rights you have in your own Afghanistan or Iran!

Was hezbollah's 6 yr unprovoked raining of bombs and missiles on Isreal excusable on the grounds that a negligible number of Isrealis died? So as long as no one is killed it is perfectly lawful to rain bombs with ball bearings on me?

Your revisionism and hypocrisy is legendary! Little ball bearings that killed only a relatively few civillians? and those "relatively few civillians" don't matter because afterall only a few of them died or they were just isreali apes and pigs? Why should a party that considers itself built on the principles of a religion of "peace" have weapons in the first place? Is it a nation on its own?
What did you expect the IDF to use in response to those "little ball bearings that only killed a relatively few civillians"? Ball bearings that kill only a relatively few terrorists?

Good statement on Islamic double standards.

[size=18pt]It's all about Iraq, isn't it?

Yep, it's all about Iraq and, [/size]

India and the Sudan and Algeria and Afghanistan and New York and Pakistan and Israel and Russia and Chechnya and the Philippines and Indonesia and Nigeria and England and Thailand and Spain and Egypt and Bangladesh and Saudi Arabia and Ingushetia and Dagestan and Turkey and Kabardino-Balkaria and Morocco and Yemen and Lebanon and France and Uzbekistan and Gaza and Tunisia and Kosovo and Bosnia and Mauritania and Kenya and Eritrea and Syria and Somalia and California and Argentina and Kuwait and Virginia and Ethiopia and Iran and Jordan and United Arab Emirates and Louisiana and Texas and Tanzania and Germany and Australia and Pennsylvania and Belgium and Denmark and East Timor and Qatar and Maryland and Tajikistan and the Netherlands and Scotland and Chad and Canada and China and,

, and pretty much wherever Muslims believe their religion tells them to:

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah, , nor follow
the religion of truth, until they pay the tax in acknowledg-ment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection."
Qur'an, Sura 9:29

Question: I believe that Islam is a religion of tolerance and peace. Your criticism of Islam contradicts our President and other high-level members of government here and abroad as well as both Christian and Muslim leaders. Isn’t it time to admit you’re wrong?

Answer: Presumably, non-Muslims who equate Islam with peace and tolerance are simply ignorant. Muslim leaders, however, who do so are knowingly saying whatever is expedient for the furtherance of Islam’s goal of world dominion. They know many verses like this in the Qur’an: “When you meet the unbelievers, then it is smiting of the necks [strike off their heads]….” (Surah 47:4).



Muslims have historically spread Islam through conquest, whenever and wherever they could. It is either confess that “There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet” or lose one’s head. As Islamic authority Ahmad Hasan az-Zayat states in Al-Azhar, Cairo, Egypt, “Holy war [jihad] is…a divine obligation. The Muslim [knows] his religion is a Qur’an and a sword….”



All 19 terrorists who attacked America last September 11 were devout Muslims acting “in the name of Allah.” Logically, I thought the attack would expose Islam’s violent nature. Instead, Muslim leaders have become popular speakers in high demand and Islam is being hailed as a religion of peace and tolerance. More than 30,000 Americans have converted to Islam since 9/11/01! 1



One such speaker is Imam Fawaz Damra. A local TV station aired a tape of Damra promoting “a Palestinian Holy War” with “rifles [aimed] at the sons of monkeys and pigs, the Jews.” The Qur’an declares that some Jews were turned into apes and swine (Surah 5:60). Damra called the broadcast an “outrageous” attempt to “discredit” him—but the exposé didn’t reduce his popularity.2



As in all Muslim countries, in the hundreds of Islamic schools across America (many subsidized by Saudi Arabia) Israel’s existence is not admitted on any map. The Washington Islamic Academy just outside Washington, D.C. has 1,300 students. Its eleventh-graders study from a textbook which states that on “the Day of Judgment…Muslims will fight and kill Jews, who will hide behind trees that say, ‘Oh Muslim, Oh servant of Allah, here is a Jew hiding behind me. Come here and kill him.’ “3 These are Muhammad’s words!



On the Oprah Winfrey show of October 5, 2001, Queen Raina of Jordan said, “The important thing is the spirit of Islam. That is all about tolerance…and human dignity…Islam…doesn’t impose anything on other people….” She must know that Muhammad said, “He who relinquishes his faith, kill him” and that, in obedience, Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries where shari’a (Islamic law) is enforced execute Muslims who turn to another religion.



Muhammad said there could be only one religion in the world. He wiped out the Jews in Arabia and no Jew is allowed there today. In Saudi Arabia only a Muslim may be a citizen; no non-Muslim place of worship may be built and non-Islamic worship is forbidden, even in the sanctity of one’s home. This is “tolerance”?



I challenge anyone to give even one example of where Islam has ever brought peace and tolerance. There are none. There are more revolutions, assassinations and terrorism in Muslim countries than in all the rest of the world, Muslim against Muslim. From 1948 to 1973 there were 80 revolutions in the Islamic world, 30 of them successful, including the murder of 22 heads of state.



Egypt’s Anwar Sadat, a Muslim, was assassinated by the Muslim Brotherhood. East Pakistan rebelled against West Pakistan in 1971 and became Bangladesh. In the eight-year war between Iran and Iraq, 1,000 tons of poison gas were used and deaths numbered more than in World War I. This is peace?



Sudan’s Muslim government in the north has killed about 2 million black non-Muslims in the south, enslaved thousands who are sold to other Muslim countries (Khadaffi buys them for $15 each), and brutally oppresses and tortures in trying to force everyone into “peaceful and tolerant” Islam. In Nigeria, where 16 of the 19 northern states have adopted shari’a, thousands of non-Muslims are being killed and hundreds of churches burned down. In Indonesia, Christians are being killed daily and churches and villages are being destroyed by Muslims who are determined to force everyone into Islam. This is tolerance?



In Algeria about 100,000 people have been slaughtered in the last decade, Muslim against Muslim. Our task in Afghanistan will be to bring peace among its warring factions. The rival warlords are all Muslims who kill one another in the name of Allah. Kuwait and Saudi Arabia had to call upon non-Muslims to bring peace. If Islam is peace, why must “infidels” obtain it for Muslims!



There are repeated appeals for tolerance toward Muslims in this country. But those who make such appeals never mention the oppression and slaughter of non-Muslims in Muslim countries. Enough of this one-way street! Shouldn’t every mosque in the West be shut down and allowed to reopen only when Muslim countries provide comparable freedom? Tell your Senator and Congressman!



Muhammad claimed that Allah had commanded him to “fight against all people until all confess there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet.” Islam must take over the world and that includes America. Abdulrahman Alamoudi, director of the American Muslim Council, told a conference of the Islamic Association for Palestine, “[T]he United States will become a Muslim country, even if it takes 100 years.”



Said Alamoudi, “I have been labeled by the media in New York a supported of Hamas [part of Arafat’s fatah, and responsible for most of the terrorism in Israel]. I wish they added that I am also a supporter of Hesbollah [Party of Allah].”4 The latter has been responsible for countless Katyusha rocket attacks upon Israel, the kidnapping and murder of many Americans, and for the bombing of the American Marines barracks in October 23, 1983 causing the death of 241 Americans.



The freedoms we grant Muslims in America are being used to destroy those very freedoms. The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), with ties to terrorists, is organizing Muslim voters: “Our goal….is to register more than 100,000 new Muslim voters over the next eight months.” Ibrahim Hooper, CAIR spokesman, explained that he “wants to see the United States become a Muslim country.”5



Don’t be deceived by the peaceful face Islam currently shows in America. Professor James A. Beverly of Toronto writes, “In 1999 I had lunch with an American whose identity I must conceal lest I place his life in renewed danger….[Because] he no longer believed in Islam…he abandoned his faith. As a result, he received death threats—not in Sudan, or Libya, or Iraq, but in the United States.”6



Islam is “peace and tolerance”? Never has such a blatant and destructive lie been believed by so many. Every Christian must see that this lie is refuted and the truth about Islam made known as widely as possible. Otherwise the consequences will be horrible beyond our imagination.

Bukhari:V4B52N50 "Muhammad said, 'A single endeavor of fighting in Allah’s Cause is better than the world and whatever is in it.'" Fighting is not only considered good, it’s Islam’s best deed.

Bukhari:V4B52N220 "Allah’s Apostle said, 'I have been made victorious with terror. The treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand.'" Terror is Muhammad’s legacy. His motivation was money.

Bukhari:V9B88N174 "I heard the Prophet saying, 'Islam cannot change!'" It can't be reformed. Islam remains mired in deceit, hate, and violence.

Bukhari:V4B52N260 "The Prophet said, 'If a Muslim discards his religion, kill him.'" This is why we must free Muslims from Islam. Without our help, death is their only way out.

Bukhari:V7B67N427 "The Prophet said, 'If I take an oath and later find something else better than that, then I do what is better and expiate my oath.'" Translated into common English, he just said, "I am a lying scumbag; you should not trust me."

Bukhari:V7B67N427 "The Prophet said, 'If I take an oath and later find something else better than that, then I do what is better and expiate my oath.'" Translated into common English, he just said, "I am a lying scumbag; you should not trust me."

This is the singular reason,I insist Islam is deceit deceit deceit.
Mohammed kept changing the rules as he went along to suit himself and pinned it on allah.
what use is a man that cannot keep his words?

that's why Israel was wasting time attempting to make peace treaties with Palestine during Arafats time.
Treaties mean absolutely nothing to Muslims.
allah allows them to negate on their treaties,Mo was good at it

i find it amazing that muslims on this forum spend so much time, typing and copying nadpasting. yet in the real world, they waste no time on words and more on actions.

? :-x