@papido

I like your approach too, though I don t agree with some things you said , I respect your stand.


But be careful, do not depend or exalt Or put complete trust in your fellow man, You will be disappointed, only God is infallible.

In my view, no need for jets when their are still hungry people in the country.

Good luck, I'm sure your are a pleasant dude.

@Papido

You say he does not draw any salary from the church but the church provides him a fleet of 3 planes. These planes at a minimum will cost $50 million dollars (N7.5 billion at an exchange rate of 150). The income from his books it is claimed is N300 million a year - it will thus take him 25 years of his own income to buy those planes. So there is nothing commendable about him not drawing a salary from the church.

It is wicked and reckless for the church to spend so much on private planes on the back of tithes and offerings donated by people some of who are on less than N40,000 a year. These people cannot afford to send their kids to decent schools or afford the most basic of healthcare. If a less well off member of the congregation develops kidney failure - will he flown abroad on the private jet for treatment ? If Oyedepo's income is as large as you say it is, coupled with the huge income from tithes and offerings why does the church universities charge fees that most members of the congregation cannot afford ? What is happening to the large amounts of money raised ?

You also say that he does not solicit money - I beg to differ. I have heard his sermons where he tells people that they cannot prosper unless they give to the church. Now clearly that is him pressuring them into giving - he must know that his statement is wrong because there are literarily hundreds of millions of wealthy successful christians that dont tithe.

Oyedepo is doing what the rest of the prosperity charlatans are doing - getting wealthy on the back of people's desperation - he should be treated no better than a common criminal.

EarsWide, you're going hard on this one,

@musKeeto

Picture this scenario - a driver/messenger earns N30,000 a month - out of this he diligently gives his N3,000 to the church. He has 3 children, his wife does not have a job.  Now one of his children falls ill with cancer - treatable if detected early (with an MRI scanner). This of course is not available - so he goes to church to pray for a miracle for his child to survive (the chances are that there will no miracle) so he has to watch his child die. People who have lost children will tell you that the pain and anguish involved is undescribable. An MRI scanner which will diagnose cancer costs anything up to $2 million - all this while the pastor of the church is jetting in and out of the country on planes worth a total of $50 million.

The scenario above is NOT a story - it happens all the time in Nigeria.

I repeat Oyedepo and the rest of his 419 charlatans should be treated EVEN worse than common criminals. They deserve nothing but our contempt.

Papido:

@Dare2think, your question has already been answered. The only mystery in Oyedepo's source of wealth is the fact that people who don't know him one on one would even think of paying money into his account at all. The man doesn't even say thank you to those who drop this money. if you are familiar with his style, you would see that the way he talks should even discourage you from dropping any money at all. He doesnt beg and he wouldn't even say thank you for dropping anything. That is not conventional.

This is what we are talking about , there is grace upon a giver. Mysterious things keeps happening. The man who chops his own seed can't underdtsnd this . He will feel it's a make up story.

This is the point we're trying to make here. That issues like this should be approached from a human issue,
If everyone can take time to read the story of the Good Samaritan, we would be amazed what wonderful insight we would get. Jesus didn't commend the Priest or the Levite (his own people), he commended the Good Samaritan. These Samaritans were supposedly not even partakers of the Law,

Hope y'all have time to read this, got this from someone on facebook, can't remember whom

Having giving my life to Christ as early as my junior secondary school days in 1987, I have come to follow conscientiously the development of Christianity over these years and my thoughts as well as observations over these 23 years are found below: My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. If I may add to that, God's people are more destroyed as a result of half baked truth. The tendency to bombard Christians with poorly researched literatures, and error laced grammatical expressions have not helped in positioning thousands properly. Children are not exempt as most of them in their departments in churches are taught by people that do not have the skills to manage and work with children. These teachers have made themselves available, however, the requisite skills are lacking. Now the question is, should the church continue to have people that do not have the skill since they are available to work for free or should they look out for Christians with skills even if they have to pay for the service?

My observation correlates with the fact that most skilled consultants will require payment for their time and efforts. Even if as a contribution every now and then they organize and work with groups for free, there comes a time they simply work away if there is no payment for the work being done especially when they are not set up as charities. The influx of people into churches for solace as a result of the poor quality of life in the country has brought to fore the lack of sound structure to manage growth by most of these organizations. I have always called for, as far as I can remember, strategies to be added in the sermon people are taught in churches. When you say to people for instance God will make it happen, will it be out of place to help them conceive possibilities that will bring this about? Irrespective of the number of times we have heard as a sermon that God is our source, is it not obvious that one can clearly enumerate how the church raises its funds? I worry when people think that being a Christian mean God doing everything for them. Millions have been made to believe that I know. But the earlier we begin to re orientate the minds of these people that God has empowered them to care of a number of issues the better for us all. Why will God take away challenges that make us strong? Why will God solve problems He has given the ability for us to solve? I subscribe to our asking God for the sense of direction as well as the grace to do the right thing when it is required of us, but not His coming to solve problems He has left within the capacities He put in us to solve. The impossible, I agree we leave to God. After all, why is it called impossible? But what about the possible like, reading a book, learning to use the computer, driving lessons, and swimming classes? Do we need to leave these ones to God as well?

Our society is the way it is today because we have fewer people creating and thinking solutions than those creating and thinking problems. Have you every wondered the essence of having the image and likeness of such a mighty God if we can not solve problems like him? Christians should wake up from this slumber. The day is far spent and the night fast approaching when no man can work. Faith from God requires we back our desires with actions. Let me take having a good job for instance; most well managed companies require certain level of skill sets from those they will employ in other to perform optimally. Let us assume one of such skills will be the use of the computer. The normal Christian kind testimony is how she/he got the job without the necessary skills. Such may receive a thunderous ovation from the audience but it will not go down well with me. Reason is that we do the people a disservice when we emphasize miracles as standard as against principles. I feel the emphasis on miracles is to obligate them to their various churches as that will remove from them the thoughts they can create their outcomes? My question is why will understanding the principles of creation take away from a true child of God the notion that God is awesome and deserves all adorations from us? The more we make people feel and think everything around them is time and chance without any iota of effort on their part, the more we are simply waiting for a disaster to happen in Christendom as it relates to the capacity of the people to accomplish set tasks. How can Christians develop the requisite skill sets for a 21st century work when most churches made it mandatory to be in one meeting or the other 7 days a week? A question that comes to mind is when will such people have the time to go out into their world and make impact? When will they utilize the dose of word given to them to ascertain its effectiveness before coming back the next minute for another dose? Christians will need to understand it is not every pastor that is blessed with the skills of time management. They need to realize the importance of using this greatest commodity of the planet well. They will be successful to the extent this essential commodity – time, is not frittered away. They will fail in tasks set before them to the extent this commodity is unwisely spent. What time do Christians set aside to be alone with family and friends? Or are they not supposed to develop such aspects of their lives as well?

A loving God will expect the truth from each and every one of us that professes true Christianity, and the truth is that the churches have not helped matters. It takes a fair dose of selfishness for success to be achieved. These churches to have reached their present state of success have exhibited their fair share of selfishness as well. I say selfish because most churches will not see as priority seminars on a constant basis to build their congregation especially those that are employed. A once in while workshop and seminar to me is for media propaganda and not to build capacity taking into consideration how repetition reinforces what is being taught and learnt. Another truth is that for Christians to be more effective they will need to plan their time well. There is this guise not to question spiritual matters in Christendom and it has made a number of people keep mute about certain issues. But this is fast becoming a thing of the past with the way Christian leaders have demystified themselves in their quest for material things. The emphasis on tithe is one of such. I have always felt my tithe aside going to my church should also go to people and organizations that I think one way or the other have contributed to my becoming who I am today. But times with number I have been told that it should go to where I am fed – my local church. Please consider this scripture carefully and share your views with me on the subject Deut 26:12. I have consistently given this tithe to my local church but don’t we think I need to follow my heart now as well as God’s word? I know this has been a huge source of income for the churches and I am not saying we should not continue giving to our local churches. All I am saying is that the attendant feeling of having wronged God we are made to have when it does to come to our local churches even when we are led to give elsewhere how scripturally correct is that? Also with the claims of most men of God of having read the whole Bible does it mean they have never come across the scripture that their emphasis all the time is in the book of Malachi and a man robbing God? I would think the churches have allowed sleeping dog lie here since it will not favour their revenue drive.

Analogies abound where spiritual matters are compared to the earthly in other to buttress or make a passage more comprehendible. One of such in trying to define how loving God is compared Him to our earthly fathers that will not give us stones and/or scorpions when we ask for bread. This is to show clearly God’s intention for us to be blesses. Some proponents of faith have also said that issues concerning faith should be taken hook, line, and sinker. I wouldn’t have a problem with that if the application is uniform, but a case it is applied when it is to defend a stand and jettisoned when it is time to raise funds smacks of double standard. The same faith we are meant to draw upon in times of our needs, the churches should also draw upon and stop this situation where in a 30 minutes message everything points to either a plea or a command to contribute money to one work of God of the other. Such a message is fast drowning the need for Christians to cultivate the fruits of the Holy Spirit which points to character a major ingredients lacking in Christendom today. And for everyone’s information, the bona fide way of knowing a Christian is not in speaking in tongues, that is very rampart today, but in the manifestations of the fruits of the Holy Spirit. You do not know an orange tree from the swagger; you know one from the fruit it bears. True Christians will always understand the enormity of God’s work and the need for funding. But we need to also remember that God will not allow work He has commissioned to suffer. Whoever frets from a supposed work that is mandated by God is not a true child of God. My guess is that God should be very much interested in what concerns Him and will do everything to ensure it stands. I know God speaks to true Christians and will let them know the work to support and the ones that smacks of manipulation especially in this era most church founders compete on who will build the highest seating capacity church for God. What is most painful about all this is that the people are placed under financial burdens to achieve it in the guise of one pledge/vow or the other. As Christians we need to stand strong and request once again emphasis on the Fruits of the Holy Spirit which speaks of character. How can we continue to build houses for God with billions while majority of the people in our various congregations wallow in abject poverty. There is so much money everywhere (government, churches etc) but I honestly wonder why a sizeable chunk is not channeled towards building the capacities of the people.

The present way the gospel is being communicated is emphasizing mammon and de-emphasizing the fruits of the Holy Spirit and all true Christian will need to stand and begin to check this trend. It has caused our churches just like the hallowed chambers to be permeated with hooligans. Any wonder we now have pastors that are caught stealing as well as committing all manner of atrocious acts. Since they have to perform, and every performance based on the tragedy of our society requires they accompany it with money, the pressure to have that money becomes overwhelming. This problem of unplanned growth is not peculiar to churches alone as even organizations that are supposedly well run have it as well. There was this case of Zenith bank sending a letter to me with my ATM card and addressed me as Miss Mary Ononye. I marveled at the level of nonchalance whoever must have used the letter template exhibited. People need to go back to the study of God’s word. I can tell everyone the problem of society is sky rocketing to the extent the churches are failing. The society is a true reflection of the failed morals the church ought to have instilled. In those days, there are people that are supposedly called by God, where are they now? How easy will it be for us to differentiate them from the myriads of those that chase after mammon each day? Why will churches not invest in the training of their workforce? Why will they find it so difficult to spend on the same people that make things work for their organizations? I am not impressed one bit with their beggarly stance when it is time to invest money in others - a message they hamper on- and behave like lions when they are demanding same from their congregations.

Sometimes I see a correlation in what Robert Kiyosaki says in one of his books that people get rich by keeping and not by removing. Is it something these churches understand that we do not? Churches will not give a stipend not to talk of salaries to these workers that volunteer to serve with them even as a form of encouraging them and demanding a more quality work output from them but will continue to preach giving and antecedent blessings in almost all their sermons. Churches will not advice these same people to go and learn a skill in other to be more useful to themselves, families, and societies but will intimidate them into believing their blessings are tied to attending every single meeting they create. Little wonder every coming meeting is the one that God will come down and meet you personally even if it was the same slogan that was used the previous week for the one you just experienced. So you wonder if there is a way He will come down next week He forgot to do this week. Faith must be applied holistically. Christians will need to understand that building their skills and developing their capacities requires they equally spend time in places where these skills and capacities are worked upon. How can ones destination be the South Pole and he/she insists that going north is the way to go? These skills will not suddenly become a part of them as a result of the number of meetings they attend. Neither will these skills be added to them because their pastors said so. Are we not amazed at how some of these people attend church almost every single day of the week? I wonder when they for family and friends? Can this be the one of the reasons why the family system has gone bananas? Candidates for promotion do not position themselves for promotions simply by confessing every day I am due for promotion, I am due for promotion. Rather, they position themselves by working on those skills that are required as well as delivering more than they are paid to do. God is honestly looking for people that are prepared and not the lazy for the 21st century kingdom deployment. He is also looking for sincere people – those that even with the knowing they could loose all pecuniary pecks of life will still call a spade a spade. Have you ever come across where God said, ‘have you seen or noticed a man that is diligent (serious) in what he does? He will stand before those that count and not nonentities’. An anointing that will not solve problems for humanity is a meaningless one. All through Jesus’ experience on Earth, he was and still is a problem solver.

We flock to God because we know Him to be a problem solver. If then the mind of Christ is in us how and why do we run away from problems (challenges)? The Anointing (grace ) of God upon our lives will always differ from one person to the other but one underlining fact is that they all solve one problem or the other. I remember the year 2000 how my pastor then preached over and over again on how we can and need to step out from our comfort zones to live those dreams God has put in us. When I eventually mustered the courage to leave my Job at Schlumberger and mentioned it to my pastor, he became immediately worried for and about me. Nevertheless, I left when I believed the time was right. In retrospect, the only thing I felt my pastor should have added then, which is still where knowledge and experience comes in, is the need to understand certain very basic parameters that one should try to put in place before leaving a paid job. In effect, most pastors motivate with the ‘what’ and never the ‘how’. It is important for Christians to understand the place of the how’s (strategies) in living their dreams. They need to be fully aware that God is always behind faith that is backed by fully thought out actions. People have asked me if there are no times we should just trust God completely. I remind them in response that every single day of our lives must be lived trusting God completely. Preparing for God’s assignments for our lives does not imply lack of trust in His infinite ability carry us through but the understanding we fully appreciate the value God places on preparation. After all, He suggests that any man wanting to build (execute a project) should first of all determine (Planning) from what he has if he will be able to finish it or not.

Christians have become lazy (myself inclusive) in our study of Gods word. Aside becoming lazy, we have also allowed the finest and most powerful organ (human mind) of the body bestowed upon us by God to lie dormant. We no longer engage in sound discourse to promote the kingdom of Christ as well as attract and encourage quality people to be part of the kingdom drive. Thanks to the emphasis on money that has attracted different shades of people, and thanks also to the fact we expect our pastors to breat feed us until we are called home to God. We would rather jamboree and promote one form of Christian partying or the other in the name of serving God. We leave everything on the premise who is addressing us is knowledgeable in what he/she is saying without realizing that sometimes these wonderful men and women simply regurgitate the sermons of others that for most cases might not be 21st century compliant in terms of application and strategy. Every part of the Bible that talks about success links it to diligence, faith and trust in God. Why people wait for the opportunities to come first before getting prepared is still a mystery to me. While I do not have problems with study guides and messages of others, it is equally important Christians understand the place of personal study for the Rhema God might have in store for them. Since ego prevents people to take what is good, when questions are raised, especially those that may not conform to trends and patterns of things in your local church, ensure these questions are raised in humility. Else, you will embark on a fight you will neither finish nor win. I have had to hold accountable the Christians that work in my organization and insist whenever they turn in shoddy work permission will not be granted when they require it.

The mind of Christ must be clearly seen in the quality of the work we turn in as well. Their work delivery has drastically improved over time and the amazing thing about it all is that they are the owners of whatever improvement they have experienced. Isn’t that what true capacity building should be all about? So our modus operandi as an organization remains that work must be done right the first time else no permission when required. If people will understand the huge cost (time, personnel, and money) associated with doing work all over again, they will see to it they never have to repeat whatever assignment is given to them by their superiors. In conclusion, the human mind is such a powerful tool and should never be left dormant like a lot of Christians allow. There lies the power of all creations, innovations, discoveries etc. Christians should engage in debates for practical solutions on how to move their lives forward. Debates have a way of bringing out the best in an environment since one person can never see from every point of view. The United States is where they are today as a result of having integrated people from all walks of life. People in our various churches should be encouraged to develop skills. A case where the leaders simply concern themselves with the meeting of church attendance and what the contributions for the day is should be replaced with a true yearning to design programs and workshops that will empower the people. Christians should be encouraged to read wide and not the case where they are only reminded to pick up one pastor’s book or the other. Sometimes I wonder what the youths in churches come together to do. I think their meetings should be more of capacity building and job creation opportunities. We have had enough of meetings that mostly centres on building numerical strength.

Little wonder more and more dynamic people are exploring other routes to utilize their God given talents and abilities. To such people I say continue in the good work. You have chosen to be unique and not to allow your zest for life and the attendant contributions be swallowed by the sea of those that have subsumed their uniqueness in their bid to conform. I am aware under the sun there is time for everything. But I want to encourage us that having given so much of our time and attention to gyrations, we should give some of the remaining time -especially now that night time is fast approaching when no man can work- to the work of building and positioning ourselves for the benefit of humanity. God bless. Shalom!

Can I have an audio version?

Joagbaje:

Can I have an audio version?

No worry, I fit preach the msg for church this Sunday. I go send am to you, or you fit pick am from Dominion bookshop,

muskeeto;


Dude-----------PARAGRAPHS

Walahi, this one na one whole sunday sermon. My girl and I was suppose to start going out when i started reading it, by the time i finished, all her make-up don commot finish, lol . She no even wan go again now, i start to dey beg her.

Make una no vex, the guy wey post the thing for facebook, e pain am well,well. I've tried to modify it a bit,

EarsWide:

@Papido

Thanks for the response. Do you know how much the planes cost ?

EarsWide:

@Papido

You say he does not draw any salary from the church but the church provides him a fleet of 3 planes. These planes at a minimum will cost $50 million dollars (N7.5 billion at an exchange rate of 150). The income from his books it is claimed is N300 million a year - it will thus take him 25 years of his own income to buy those planes. So there is nothing commendable about him not drawing a salary from the church.

The most expensive among the planes, a challenger aircraft, cost $25million (N3.75billion).

dare2think:

@papido

I like your approach too, though I don t agree with some things you said , I respect your stand.


But be careful, do not depend or exalt Or put complete trust in your fellow man, You will be disappointed, only God is infallible.

In my view, no need for jets when their are still hungry people in the country.

Good luck, I'm sure your are a pleasant dude.

Thanks, for allowing me a right to my opinion while you hold on to yours.

EarsWide:

@Papido

It is wicked and reckless for the church to spend so much on private planes on the back of tithes and offerings donated by people some of who are on less than N40,000 a year. These people cannot afford to send their kids to decent schools or afford the most basic of healthcare. If a less well off member of the congregation develops kidney failure - will he flown abroad on the private jet for treatment ? If Oyedepo's income is as large as you say it is, coupled with the huge income from tithes and offerings why does the church universities charge fees that most members of the congregation cannot afford ? What is happening to the large amounts of money raised ?

I have my personal reservations on some of these things so i will not defend him blindly. However I will tell you what i once told my wife when she asked me, ''why is our money being used to buy new chairs while the new pews are discarded as waste.'' My response, ''the moment you drop that money in church for God, it is no longer our money but God's money.if you call it your own, then it never left your heart and hand and thus is not acceptable to God. so if it is no longer our money and it is God's money, whoever misappropriates God's money will regret this 'cos you cant cheat God.'' Furthermore, the psalmist said i Psalm 23:5, ''thou preparest a table before me in the presence of my enemies,  MY CUP RUNNETH OVER'' When your cup is so filled that it runs over, that means you have so much that part of it goes to waste. It is a level of blessing that David experienced, that Oyedepo is experiencing and i hope to experience. I do not defend these wastages but the guy is blessed, no one here can dispute that. Just make sure you are not part of the enemy that is compassing the table that has been prepared for him by God.

One of the 3 jets is a cargo plane that takes relief materials to areas of natural disasters. The federal government of Nigeria itself commented that Winners chapel was the organization that contributed the most materials for the rehabilitation of residents of Koma Hills. Presently in war torn sudan, Winners Chapel is building schools for that country. All the teachers will be sent from Nigeria and their salaries will be paid by the Church. Sudanese children will pay nothing. Here in Nigeria, Winners began in the Northern Nigeria and many of those church members are being slaughtered by extremists. Relief materials go from the south and the cargo planes serve for that purpose. This man does not even bother to tell newspapers that this is what he is doing to help the poor but he is helping the poor.

At this rate, Papido, you might win 'POSTER OF THE YEAR', i can't confirm most of your claims though, but if true, they are wonderful achievements,

@Papido

The fundamental mistake made today by many christians (and promoted actively by the prosperity gospel preachers) is that material wealth is as a result of holiness - IT IS NOT. There are millions of non christians  that are extremely wealthy, at the same time there are millions of good christians who are poor. This is not restricted to wealth - good people die young, good people live long, bad people die young, bad people live long. The ways of the Lord are a mystery. We should not assume Oyedepo's or other preachers' wealth is down to their holiness - in fact I believe the reverse is the case. I have watched a sermon of his where he prayed for the destruction of enemies - we all know this cannot be correct. Jesus said clearly ' pray and love your enemies'. I have seen him preach that 'borrowing is wrong' yet his churches accept donations via credit card. These sermons and others I have seen lead me to conclude that he has a very poor understanding of christianity or has deliberately chosen to mislead people.

I will assume from your silence about what happens to a member of the congregation who falls ill - that Winners chapel will not fly that person abroad for treatment on a private - but the church supposedly spends money on relief in the North and elsewhere in Africa. So effectively the members of the congregation are suffering so that the non members of the church can get relief. This is commendable, it is the very basis of christianity - however Oyedepo personally has the use of 2 private jets (if 1 is used for cargoing relief materials), several luxury vehicles and of course the best healthcare money can buy. The same applies to education, Covenant university is too expensive for most members of the congregation but the church is supposedly spending money to build free schools in Sudan - Oyedepos children I will bet went to the best schools money can buy.

I will concede one thing to you - it seems you are prepared to have a reasoned argument which I commend. I am glad  you said you have some personal reservations - this is a good sign. I have not arrived at my views overnight - I struggled to comprehend that 'Men of God' would set out to con and deceive people but unfortunately this is the case. Supposed men of god will lie, cheat, commit adultery in church just to achieve their aims - which is primarily wealth accumulation. Nonsense such as '24 hour miracle seed', '100 fold return' , 'blessings 10 times that of your father' etc are bandied about in church - the prosperity gospel has been around for almost a century - why are christians still poor ? The desperation of Africa and poor people everywhere has unfortunately made them susceptible to these charlatans - this is why these charlatans deserve our contempt,

So you point is that, he is not suppose to be rich because he is a pastor or what exactly are you trying to say? And if you feel he is a scam, then call the police or any anti-graft body and shut your gob please.

Between, i'm sure you have never donated a dime to his ministry and if you have, you can contact him, i'm sure he'll joyfully return it to you.

@playboy19

Obviously logical thinking is above you - if you like you can empty the contents of your bank account into Oyedepo's pocket or any of the numerous charlatans out there.

Your brain is not just something you put your hat on - it is for thinking. Use it!

Well, i'm trying as hard as i can to use it (my brain) but your idiotic theories are not quite comprehendable by a person of a low IQ like myself. So please try and school me a bit of what exactly you are trying to stress with your theories.

Do you expect him to be broke because he is a pastor or what? God is not a broke God.

playboy19:

Well, i'm trying as hard as i can to use it (my brain) but your idiotic theories are not quite comprehendable by a person of a low IQ like myself. So please try and school me a bit of what exactly you are trying to stress with your theories.

Do you expect him to be broke because he is a pastor or what? God is not a broke God.

So, who is the God of the poor people?

God is God to all men but there can only be 1 CEO in a company and only one President in a country (at any given time), so fingers can never be equal.

playboy19:

God is God to all men but there can only be 1 CEO in a company and only one President in a country (at any given time), so fingers can never be equal.

I agree.

But I disagree with the notion of God not being a "Broke God", as I feel God is not concerned with earthly "riches". The soul and potential damnation, I feel, is what he is concerned with.

He owns the world anyway, so there is nothing to be broke about.

being broke is an human attribute.

@daretothink
Thanks for explaining to him that God is not concerned with earthly riches - if only many christians could get this.

@playboy19
you said

Do you expect him to be broke because he is a pastor or what? God is not a broke God.

I thought as much - logical thinking is beyond you. God is not a broke God ?? utter nonsense!

^^^^^^
Matthew 19:23-24 (New International Version)

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

cherry-pick your favoured verse, it still does not shadow what he (Jesus) said about " RIches".     

There is nothing wrong with being rich, but it is wrong to align it with spirituality and closeness to God.
All manner of people from different faiths are rich, pagans and atheist are rich.Good people and bad people are rich. Richness is an earthly phenomena.
Any religion or doctrine mainly focused on prosperity only serves the deceitful purpose of the leading elite, hence the fact that they are richer than the majority of those they claim to lead.

Hey, good morning peeps. Am just getting back on the forum since last night and i like to respond to Earswide's intelligent and rational queries.

EarsWide:

@Papido

The fundamental mistake made today by many christians (and promoted actively by the prosperity gospel preachers) is that material wealth is as a result of holiness - IT IS NOT. There are millions of non christians  that are extremely wealthy, at the same time there are millions of good christians who are poor. This is not restricted to wealth - good people die young, good people live long, bad people die young, bad people live long. The ways of the Lord are a mystery. We should not assume Oyedepo's or other preachers' wealth is down to their holiness - in fact I believe the reverse is the case. I have watched a sermon of his where he prayed for the destruction of enemies - we all know this cannot be correct. Jesus said clearly ' pray and love your enemies'. I have seen him preach that 'borrowing is wrong' yet his churches accept donations via credit card. These sermons and others I have seen lead me to conclude that he has a very poor understanding of christianity or has deliberately chosen to mislead people.

I will assume from your silence about what happens to a member of the congregation who falls ill - that Winners chapel will not fly that person abroad for treatment on a private - but the church supposedly spends money on relief in the North and elsewhere in Africa. So effectively the members of the congregation are suffering so that the non members of the church can get relief. This is commendable, it is the very basis of christianity - however Oyedepo personally has the use of 2 private jets (if 1 is used for cargoing relief materials), several luxury vehicles and of course the best healthcare money can buy. The same applies to education, Covenant university is too expensive for most members of the congregation but the church is supposedly spending money to build free schools in Sudan - Oyedepos children I will bet went to the best schools money can buy.

I will concede one thing to you - it seems you are prepared to have a reasoned argument which I commend. I am glad  you said you have some personal reservations - this is a good sign. I have not arrived at my views overnight - I struggled to comprehend that 'Men of God' would set out to con and deceive people but unfortunately this is the case. Supposed men of god will lie, cheat, commit adultery in church just to achieve their aims - which is primarily wealth accumulation. Nonsense such as '24 hour miracle seed', '100 fold return' , 'blessings 10 times that of your father' etc are bandied about in church - the prosperity gospel has been around for almost a century - why are christians still poor ? The desperation of Africa and poor people everywhere has unfortunately made them susceptible to these charlatans - this is why these charlatans deserve our contempt,

@Earswide,
Holiness is not synonymous with wealth like you rightly said but holy people have no reason to be poor. The bible said ''my people (God's own holy people) perish for lack of knowledge''. Wealth is information intensive. Whether you go to church or not, when you have the right info, you are on your way up.

Also i like you to avoid quoting Oyedepo out of context. You said you watched a sermon of his where he prayed for the destruction of enemies. Granted he said so, but that does not mean that is what he does always. We all know that there are some enemies that will not let you go unless you destroy them. Take the instance of Pharaoh and the Israelites. God was patient and gave several warnings but they didnt budge. At a point in time, even Jesus Christ asked his disciples to sell their coats and purchase swords (Luke 22:35-36) i believe for self defence. Christianity is for peace but the occasion will determine the appropriate response.

On the issue of people paying tithe with credit cards, as far as i am concerned, we use debit cards (not credit cards) within Nigeria. If anyone is paying with credit card, it might be those outside the shores of Nigeria and because those advance economies discourage carrying around huge cash. They operate more of a cashless society. people who don't like debts might decide not to upset their finances by paying just for what they can immediately offset to the credit card companies at the end of the month. Under that circumstance, i think we might be flexible here and not go into debt in an attempt to pay God's share.

On the issue of relief in the northern parts of Nigeria, i was talking about winners chapel members who need relief from the religious extremism that caused many to lose their lives and property. He is not just helping outsiders and denying his own people. No. He is also conversant with the suffering winners. I have not heard that a sick member of the church needs to fly and that Oyedepo did not grant the use of the jet. This cannot be confirmed or denied. But i believe that even if he does help some faceless person with the jet, he wouldn't announce it so we may never know. He makes a lot of moves secretly. Some are known only to his close circuits, some to us staff, some to the church and some to the general public. However, I am aware that Bishop Abioye (his deputy) has unlimited access to the jets too.

Many prosperity preachers swindle people like you rightly observed. This is unfortunate. However, I am convinced that most of these frauds are only trying to imitate Oyedepo who is obviously the pioneer in this field. Oyedepo is not a fraud. I expressed my reservations on some of his operations because given the opportunity i will definitely not do certain things he does and subscribe to some other things that he doesn't, but Earswide, on the whole, this man is worth hearing. He has passion and compassion. You cannot know this unless you hear him continuously for a period, say 3months. While there may be some human errors on his part, i daresay no one will throw away his infant together with the bath water just because the baby pooed. You take what is useful and discard the rest. That is what i do with his teachings.

@Papido

Thanks for your response.

Holiness is not synonymous with wealth like you rightly said but holy people have no reason to be poor. The bible said ''my people (God's own holy people) perish for lack of knowledge''. Wealth is information intensive. Whether you go to church or not, when you have the right info, you are on your way up

If we both agree that holiness is not synonymous with wealth - then why does Oyedepo talk about 'covenant seed sowing'. I have listened to him say that prayers and fasting wont bring prosperity but that tithing/giving can. Comments like this are clearly misleading and pressurize people who can least afford it into parting with even more of their hard earned cash. There will be members of the church who have been tithing and giving for years and are still dirt poor. These people after a while will start to question themselves or even more dangerously will start to doubt God. God does not transfer money to anyone - if you have a good idea, the right connections, a good education or just pure luck - you will be successful - if you dont have any of these you will most likely be poor.

Also i like you to avoid quoting Oyedepo out of context. You said you watched a sermon of his where he prayed for the destruction of enemies. Granted he said so, but that does not mean that is what he does always. We all know that there are some enemies that will not let you go unless you destroy them. Take the instance of Pharaoh and the Israelites. God was patient and gave several warnings but they didnt budge. At a point in time, even Jesus Christ asked his disciples to sell their coats and purchase swords (Luke 22:35-36) i believe for self defence. Christianity is for peace but the occasion will determine the appropriate response.

I do not believe I am quoting him out of context - the sermon was titled 'Covenant Day of Vengeance'.It was very shocking to see 50,000 people praying for the destruction of enemies. You come across as a reasonable person - I think someone like you would have been a bit hesitant about praying for the death of a fellow human being. Lets imagine my enemy is Mr T - do I then say 'God please kill Mr T!' - there is something profoundly unchristian about that. I could just have prayed 'God please dont let Mr T succeed in his attempts to get me' or better yet pray 'God plese change Mr T to a better person'. God can do anything - it does not take less effort on Gods part to destroy Mr T than to change him to a better person.

In anycase this 'Covenant Day of Vengeance' is playing to the idea that all our misfortunes are down to 'enemies' - which is one of the reasons why Africa remains backward. Good people will be sick, poor, die young etc. It does not mean anyone is after them or God is not protecting them. Some people are born disabled - do we really think it is down to enemies ? This 'enemy' thing is just one weapon in the arsenal of the prosperity guys.

On the issue of people paying tithe with credit cards, as far as i am concerned, we use debit cards (not credit cards) within Nigeria. If anyone is paying with credit card, it might be those outside the shores of Nigeria and because those advance economies discourage carrying around huge cash. They operate more of a cashless society. people who don't like debts might decide not to upset their finances by paying just for what they can immediately offset to the credit card companies at the end of the month. Under that circumstance, i think we might be flexible here and not go into debt in an attempt to pay God's share.

There is no need to accept credit cards at all - there are debit cards. If an individual is between salaries - the church should be prepared to wait until he/she gets paid to accept the tithes/offerings - There is no immediacy about giving of money to the church.If on the other hand the individual does not know where his next income is coming from - the church should NOT be taking any money from him/her. This problem is not restricted to Winners Chapel - most of the pentecostal churches seem to do it. Credit cards are the most expensive way of borrowing money - the church should not be putting people in a position where they may build up debts.

On the issue of relief in the northern parts of Nigeria, i was talking about winners chapel members who need relief from the religious extremism that caused many to lose their lives and property. He is not just helping outsiders and denying his own people. No. He is also conversant with the suffering winners. I have not heard that a sick member of the church needs to fly and that Oyedepo did not grant the use of the jet. This cannot be confirmed or denied. But i believe that even if he does help some faceless person with the jet, he wouldn't announce it so we may never know. He makes a lot of moves secretly. Some are known only to his close circuits, some to us staff, some to the church and some to the general public. However, I am aware that Bishop Abioye (his deputy) has unlimited access to the jets too.

Like you said no one knows if he flies members of the congregation abroad or not on the private jet. If we assume that he does, then with a congregation of over 100,000 the private jet will be flying people in/out of the country every week. This is clearly not the case. $25 million was spent on just one private jet - that money could have built and equipped an hospital. With the income levels of Winners Chapel they should be running several hospitals.

Again I stress this is not restricted to Winners Chapel. I listened to Adeboye at the 30th birthday church service of Winners Chapel and he referred to how both he and Oyedepo struggled at the beginning. He then said things are so good now, that Oyedepo and himself were thinking of buying helicopters to avoid the traffic jams ?? Incredibly the congregation clapped at that point - these are poeple who would struggle to pay hospital charges at LUTH. If Adeboye had said look at RCCG today we have x hospitals, x free schools, etc it would have made sense - but to boast about being able to afford an helicopter is just NOT christianlike.

Regarding the universities - this surely has to be one of the most ridiculous things Winners Chapel, RCCG and others do. How can you use your members' tithes and offerings to establish a university which they cannot afford to attend ?

While there may be some human errors on his part, i daresay no one will throw away his infant together with the bath water just because the baby pooed. You take what is useful and discard the rest. That is what i do with his teachings.

Funny enough someone very dear to me told me the same about prosperity pastors in general. I however disagree : The prosperity gospel is essentially that God will bless those he loves and those who love him with wealth, health and supernatural blessings. Now we have both agreed wealth is not down to holiness, I am sure you would also agree that health is not down to holiness either. The prosperity guys also seem to be after money in ways you have to admit cause a few raised eyebrows. If you remove the promised wealth, health from the prosperity gospel and add the perceived greed, selfishness and wickedness there is nothing left in the prosperity gospel.

Papido:

Holiness is not synonymous with wealth like you rightly said but holy people have no reason to be poor. The bible said ''my people (God's own holy people) perish for lack of knowledge''. Wealth is information intensive. Whether you go to church or not, when you have the right info, you are on your way up.

True , poverty is not of God. It's based on ignorance .

Joagbaje:

True , poverty is not of God. It's based on ignorance .

Poverty is not of God??

Who is the God of poor folks?

So, people who are not in poverty, i.e Rich and Middle-class are of God, but not poor people?

And you are speaking on behalf of God??

And you are a pastor?? lol, funny world.

Phillipians 4
10How I praise the Lord that you are concerned about me again. I know you have always been concerned for me, but you didn’t have the chance to help me. 11 Not that I was ever in need, for I have learned how to be content with whatever I have. 12 I know how to live on almost nothing or with everything. I have learned the secret of living in every situation, whether it is with a full stomach or empty, with plenty or little. 13 For I can do everything through Christ,[c] who gives me strength.


If you think someone's lack signifies his level of spirituality, you're wrong. God works on our inside (guard your heart, for out of it flows all issues of life). He looks at the heart, not appearance. He's not bothered about your bank account, more about your life account. The Christian life is not about being good, it's about being in LOVE, with God, yourself and your neighbours. If the churches preached about this as much as they preach on tithes, make heaven, and ENEMY DIE, the Nation would have been a better place to live in.

In as much as we may lay blame on those at the pulpit, we should also examine our lives. Are we influencing our environment well enough?

dare2think:

Poverty is not of God??

Who is the God of poor folks?

You tell me . Is there a God of poor folks ?

So, people who are not in poverty, i.e Rich and Middle-class are of God, but not poor people?

Are you asking a question or you are manipulating my post.

And you are speaking on behalf of God??

God doesn't make people poor. He makes men great. The devil and ignorance make men poor.

And you are a pastor?? lol, funny world.

I didn't say I am

Chopping life at the expense of the poor.

Thirty million dollar toy.