MaxInDHouse:


So if man has been judged and there is no solution, what is the purpose of your running up and down on Nairaland?
You're going to die and there's nothing afterwards just like everyone else, so what are you doing here everyday?

To educate folks like you who are deep into idolatry. The universe detest us doing that. We were created in the creators image and likeness.. you stooping so low to worship a figure that was created by the romans is taking us below monkeys and apes...

The purpose is to move humanity forward. You guys are taking us backwards..

sonmvayina:


To educate folks like you who are deep into idolatry. The universe detest us doing that. We were created in the creators image and likeness.. you stooping so low to worship a figure that was created by the romans is taking us below monkeys and apes...

The purpose is to move humanity forward. You guys are taking us backwards..

So what will happen if we refuse to listen to you?

Dtruthspeaker:


You surely had his time. For me, immediately he said Christ Jesus was a fabrication of the Romans and man is God, he was kookoo, to me.

When the time comes....

Dtruthspeaker:

You surely had his time. For me, immediately he said Christ Jesus was a fabrication of the Romans and man is God, he was kookoo, to me.

I really tormented him that day that he forgot his reincarnation nonsense and began cursing for real!
Ever since then i've been watching him with an eye because i'm beginning to agree with you that something is wrong with his brain!
How can someone who say there is no judgement apart from reincarnation open his mouth to talk of someone as in PERISHING?
Walahi talahi he has lost it completely!

Myer:


Brotherly. I trust you're doing great.
I assure you everything I said here were extracted from the pages of the bible.
How it is my interpretation remains subject of debate.

1. Did God not place the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the same garden as the tree of life?

I assume your claim is also that the events of the garden of eden were simply figurative right?
Its that not also simply your own interpretation?

2. I simply highlighted 7 points on the subject of the thread not the whole bible sir.

I'm actually curious to hear your "unbiased and unsentimental" counterpoints.
Since your normal inclination as a Christian is to defend God and his actions as a Muslim is inclined to defend Allah and Mohammed.

No one can defend God. His word are self sufficient. So what I am doing isn't defence for God but putting things right the way it should be read.

The whole of the Bible is filled with the echos of the Eden story. Life, death, good, evil.
So extracting the meaning of eden story using the Gen 2-3 narrative alone will put you in a pit error.

You must ensure your interpretation aligned with

1. what Moses taught all through his books

2. what the prophets taught

3. what Jesus and his apostles taught.

[/I] That alignment must be seen all through to know if you have the right interpretation[/i].

That is the foundation of all good doctrines.

So, what I give as explanation aren't my opinion so far it aligned with the whole story of the Bible in the mouth of all its writers.

A quick check of your own interpretation, will let you know, that your line of thought will fall flat when tested with other Bible narratives, events and practices that has the same resemblance.

God doesn't change, his principles and requirements are the same all through. Hence, if we can't see this resemblance in your explanation, then it's not the true explanation.

---

So, as a primer,

Basic things you must ask,

What is life?
Why did Moses used tree?

Is there a tree ever, that you will see "fruit of life" on it?

How was tree of life used by other authors?

How was fruits used and why?

These are important question to ask before reaching a conclusion.


Bear in mind that, Moses wrote in a time that knowledge is very little and the culture and practice of their world were mostly Agrarian not office workers.
Hence when you read most ancient books of their age, you will see usage of fruits, trees, land, sheep, shepherd water etc.

That's must not be lost in your explanation.

---

In conclusion, you can't read an ancient book with the mindset of a millennia, you must travel back in time to their days to understand the reasons for the language, culture, words and events used in their text. This must be applied to the story of Genesis too.

hupernikao:




No one can defend God. His word are self sufficient. So what I am doing isn't defence for God but putting things right the way it should be read.

The whole of the Bible is filled with the echos of the Eden story. Life, death, good, evil.
So extracting the meaning of eden story using the Gen 2-3 narrative alone will put you in a pit error.

You must ensure your interpretation aligned with

1. what Moses taught all through his books

2. what the prophets taught

3. what Jesus and his apostles taught.

[/I] That alignment must be seen all through to know if you have the right interpretation[/i].

That is the foundation of all good doctrines.

So, what I give as explanation aren't my opinion so far it aligned with the whole story of the Bible in the mouth of all its writers.

A quick check of your own interpretation, will let you know, that your line of thought will fall flat when tested with other Bible narratives, events and practices that has the same resemblance.

God doesn't change, his principles and requirements are the same all through. Hence, if we can't see this resemblance in your explanation, then it's not the true explanation.

---

So, as a primer,

Basic things you must ask,

What is life?
Why did Moses used tree?

Is there a tree ever, that you will see "fruit of life" on it?

How was tree of life used by other authors?

How was fruits used and why?

These are important question to ask before reaching a conclusion.


Bear in mind that, Moses wrote in a time that knowledge is very little and the culture and practice of their world were mostly Agrarian not office workers.
Hence when you read most ancient books of their age, you will see usage of fruits, trees, land, sheep, shepherd water etc.

That's must not be lost in your explanation.

---

In conclusion, you can't read an ancient book with the mindset of a millennia, you must travel back in time to their days to understand the reasons for the language, culture, words and events used in their text. This must be applied to the story of Genesis too.

Riddle me this.
If we are to take the story of the Garden of Eden as figurative.
Why was its location well described with the various rivers and tributaries?

If we are to take it as figurative what does it mean that God banished Adam and Eve from the Garden and what does it mean that Cherubs were placed to guard man from reentry?

MaxInDHouse:


So what will happen if we refuse to listen to you?

Mother nature will get rid of you...so you are your like will perish in a flood or fire and brimstone like the folks in Sodom and Gomorrah..

sonmvayina:


The devil is a Christian invention. It does not exist in ibo traditional religion or yoruba or Judaism.

Demons, angels are natural laws and principles..
The yorubas calls them orishas...

Well. The devil is in various religions in different names.
If God is behind good. The devil is behind evil meaning Esu is the devil in yoruba.
Hades is the devil in Greek mythology, etc.

Dtruthspeaker:


You surely had his time. For me, immediately he said Christ Jesus was a fabrication of the Romans and man is God, he was kookoo, to me.

Is there anywhere from Genesis to Malachi where it was written that the creator will send his son to come and die for sin of mankind? If you have it point it to me. I will wait. The jews are saying it did not originate from them and have nothing to do with them, the Messiah their God promised them is a human king that is coming to rule in an era of peace.

So where did the authors of the So called new testament get the idea of a dying son of god?

Dont beat about the bush, just answer me and let's see whether dummy is?

sonmvayina:

Mother nature will get rid of you...so you are your like will perish in a flood or fire and brimstone like the folks in Sodom and Gomorrah..

And they will reincarnate later, right?

sonmvayina:

Is there anywhere from Genesis to Malachi where it was written that the creator will send his son to come and die for sin of mankind? If you have it point it to me. I will wait. The jews are saying it did not originate from them and have nothing to do with them, the Messiah their God promised them is a human king that is coming to rule in an era of peace.
So where did the authors of the So called new testament get the idea of a dying son of god?
Dont beat about the bush, just answer me and let's see whether dummy is?

I have quoted it several times but you never listened!

Myer:


Well. The devil is in various religions in different names.
If God is behind good. The devil is behind evil meaning Esu is the devil in yoruba.
Hades is the devil in Greek mythology, etc.

Lol..so funny.
God is responsible for both good and evil. Only his will is done. He is in perfect control of all his creation. To think otherwise is an insult.
Isaiah 45:7

sonmvayina:

Is there anywhere from Genesis to Malachi where it was written that the creator will send his son to come and die for sin of mankind?

I had this argument 4 or 5 times and IN ALL OCCASIONS YOU COULD NOT ANSWER and then you started insulting me.

SO, I WILL NEVER ENTER INTO IT AGAIN!

MaxInDHouse:

And they will reincarnate later, right?

Maybe..but do you know the odds?

Why not educate yourself and know and become like God. In stead of the continuous cycle of life and death.

sonmvayina:


Lol..so funny.
God is responsible for both good and evil. Only his will is done. He is in perfect control of all his creation. To think otherwise is an insult.
Isaiah 45:7

We have a lot of rubbing of minds to do.
You just may be right.

Myer:


We have a lot of rubbing of minds to do.
You just may be right.

I love you already..

Dtruthspeaker:


I had this argument 4 or 5 times and IN ALL OCCASIONS YOU COULD NOT ANSWER and then you started insulting me.

SO, I WILL NEVER ENTER INTO IT AGAIN!

Lol..post your answer for those who might have missed it..please. I am begging you..

sonmvayina:


Lol..post your answer for those who might have missed it..please. I am begging you..

You begged me last year and I told you NEVER!

My position has not changed!

MaxInDHouse:


I have quoted it several times but you never listened!

How did I miss it..?

You posted Isaiah 9:6, we read it together it says

"A son has been born it us....meaning the child was alive when Isaiah was prophesied. A careful read of the next verse shows just that.

Again you quoted Isaiah 7:14 my answer was that the sign or oracle was for king ahaz who was scared of his kingdom being over run. If you continue reading you will discover a time frame was given for the sign..

So I pointed out to you that what you are saying is not what is there...and you know it. But MaxInDHouse must be MaxInDHouse...

MaxInDHouse:


I have quoted it several times but you never listened!

I have decided to use NWT
See the underlined. A time frame was given for the sign. It has got nothing to do with Jesus..

Waiting for another quote

Dtruthspeaker:


You begged me last year and I told you NEVER!

My position has not changed!

You are just a woman in a man's body..

sonmvayina:


How did I miss it..?

You posted Isaiah 9:6, we read it together it says

"A son has been born it us....meaning the child was alive when Isaiah was prophesied. A careful read of the next verse shows just that.

Again you quoted Isaiah 7:14 my answer was that the sign or oracle was for king ahaz who was scared of his kingdom being over run. If you continue reading you will discover a time frame was given for the sign..

So I pointed out to you that what you are saying is not what is there...and you know it. But MaxInDHouse must be MaxInDHouse...

Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace!

Well there can never be any Wonderful Counselor when you can't present those that were counseled by him!

sonmvayina:


Is there anywhere from Genesis to Malachi where it was written that the creator will send his son to come and die for sin of mankind? If you have it point it to me. I will wait. The jews are saying it did not originate from them and have nothing to do with them, the Messiah their God promised them is a human king that is coming to rule in an era of peace.

So where did the authors of the So called new testament get the idea of a dying son of god?

Dont beat about the bush, just answer me and let's see whether dummy is?

Well it was supposedly a mystery so that the devil would not be able to prevent it. 1 Corinthians 2:8

But the closest reference in the OT would be Isaiah 53 emphasis on verse 7.

Your question is very valid though as this is why till date most Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah.

Myer:


Well it was supposedly a mystery so that the devil would not be able to prevent it.

But the closest reference in the OT would be Isaiah 53 emphasis on verse 7.

Your question is very valid though as this is why till date most Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah.

Lol..the devil (if he exist ) would be God's son/ daughter and servant
He works for God. He does only what God tell him or her to do. No more no less. God can't say A and the devil will change it to B. That is impossible. That aside, Isaiah 53 is about a suffering servant. He was suffering because of what was done to him. And 8 times prior to chapter 53 Isaiah already told us who the servant it. So this is not a point. Read Isaiah 41:1-9 for clue...or 45 :1-10...

Nobody dies in 53, if you continue reading it says "he shall see his offspring(children) and he shall prolong his days and the will of the lord shall prosper in his hands....nobody died .

sonmvayina:

I have decided to use NWT
See the underlined. A time frame was given for the sign. It has got nothing to do with Jesus..

Waiting for another quote

Messiah will be killed and Jerusalem will be destroyed and from then on war will ever continue to ravage Jerusalem! Daniel 9:26

Jesus was killed, Jerusalem was destroyed in the year 66 ce, ever since then Jerusalem has continued to experience wars until now!

He will be counted worthy to die among transgressors, and his sacrificial death will be for the redemption of many souls!Isaiah 53:12
Jesus was executed along with criminals! Matthew 27:38
And he gave his life as a propitiatory sacrifice for the sin of the world! John 3:16

MaxInDHouse:


Messiah will be killed and Jerusalem will be destroyed and from then on war will ever continue to ravage Jerusalem! Daniel 9:26

Jesus was killed, Jerusalem was destroyed in the year 66 ce, ever since then Jerusalem has continued to experience wars until now!

He will be counted worthy to die among transgressors, and his sacrificial death will be for the redemption of many souls!Isaiah 53:12
Jesus was executed along with criminals! Matthew 27:38
And he gave his life as a propitiatory sacrifice for the sin of the world! John 3:16

But wars have continued to ravage Jerusalem.
Even recently this year.

MaxInDHouse:


Messiah will be killed and Jerusalem will be destroyed and from then on war will ever continue to ravage Jerusalem! Daniel 9:26

Jesus was killed, Jerusalem was destroyed in the year 66 ce, ever since then Jerusalem has continued to experience wars until now!

He will be counted worthy to die among transgressors, and his sacrificial death will be for the redemption of many souls!Isaiah 53:12
Jesus was executed along with criminals! Matthew 27:38
And he gave his life as a propitiatory sacrifice for the sin of the world! John 3:16

Is there anything like resurrection and second coming ? Or absolution for sins??

In your desperate attempt to make a point, all you could do was clutch on straws. Hahahahahha.

Max for real, Jesus is serapis, he is a Roman creation.
How can a woman become pregnant without a male input? Common, I suppose you went to school. Shouldn't that be a red flag for you?

That 200000000 + people believe in it those not make it true. That I decided to follow God's original commandments those not mean I am alone or is a lie...read Daniel 9 that you quoted. Start from the first verse and educate yourself.

It was about obeying God's laws...

MaxInDHouse:


Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace!

Well there can never be any Wonderful Counselor when you can't present those that were counseled by him!

Lol...it is king Hezekiah. He did that when he was on the thrown as king of Judah...it is not talking about 700 or 1000 or 1000009 years into the future..

MaxInDHouse:

Humans are intelligent beings but you can give your daughter's or sister's hand in marriage so a chimpanzee!

But chimpanzees are intelligent beings. And by your earlier claim, persons are not necessarily human beings.

BluntTheApostle:


But chimpanzees are intelligent beings. And by your earlier claim, persons are not necessarily human beings.

Chimpanzees are not persons.
Let this argument end already.

I wish yall would contribute to the subject of the thread.
Derailing every thread is what Max is known for.

BluntTheApostle:

But chimpanzees are intelligent beings. And by your earlier claim, persons are not necessarily human beings.

Chimpanzee may seem intelligent to you but do they take good care of their mouth as in brushing their teeth?
Do they put on clothes to cover their unclothedness?
Do they reason with people on how to cohabit peacefully?
Do they eat with plates and wash after eating?
You atheists just feel like talking even when it's obvious you don't know anything about life, science has it's own advantage but God's word surpasses all knowledge, that's why i asked you if you can give your daughter's hand in marriage to a chimpanzee.
Spirits are unseen intelligent beings so each of them is a personality on his own and that makes God the highest of them all a person two!
Go and find out the Characteristics of a person!

Myer:


Riddle me this.
If we are to take the story of the Garden of Eden as figurative.
Why was its location well described with the various rivers and tributaries?

If we are to take it as figurative what does it mean that God banished Adam and Eve from the Garden and what does it mean that Cherubs were placed to guard man from reentry?

You are already making lots of assumptions for me o. I haven't even mention any figurative here.

But the clarity of the story of Eden is that Moses employed language in explaining this story. That means the story is a reality but there are words and languages used along that are literature wisdom.

Like I told you before.

You need to examine story within the language structure.

A safe way to do this is to look at how the NT writers read the story and the scriptures.

All NT writer wrote from the OT. That was their manual. When you see the word "scriptures" in the Bible, it primarily refer Firstly to OT because that was all they had then.

You must then observe how they read the scriptures and interpreted it. We aren't supposed to deviate from what they read.

---

For example.

Paul when reading Gen 1:1-3 call the darkness the heart of man, called the light, the gospel of Christ.

2 Cor 4:3-6
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Your explanation must not deviate from this.


What it means is that, if Jesus is to read this verse or the apostles, this will be their interpretation. Any reader of the Bible that doesn't see this, isn't reading yet.


Also observe John, speaking referencing directly the event of Gen 1-3. In John 1:1-9.

He said there was a life in the beginning to give light to man.

The man in the beginning was Adam. Then we must ask, who is the life in the beginning. Moses employed language of his time, tree of life, John was more clear, he called the life a person.

In him was life and the life was the light of men (Adam inclusive).


What these means is that the apostles read the OT in a different way from the pharisees as they were taught by Jesus.

---

Jesus, reading the OT, expressly interpreted all his messages to refer to himself.

Luke 24:44
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.


He said the subject matter of Moses and Prophets writings was him.
Hence, knowing fully well that Moses was communicating God's plan in Genesis and we know that the center point of God's plan is Christ we would do well to examine the story, how Jesus would have examined it. He said its concerning him.

---

So key questions

What does Moses referred to as TREE OF Life?
What of Fruit?

---

Paul simply made things easy for you in Romans 5.

Observe Paul was also teaching Romans 5 from Genesis, that is what he was reading when writing romans 5. I am sure that's obvious to you.


But see Paul's theology. He said one man sinned. He never mention tree or fruits, he called Adam's sin disobedient. Nothing attached. And to disobeyed it means you have been instructed. Hence Paul never focus on tree, but instruction of life.

---

Lastly and more importantly is to ensure you aren't separating Moses time and audience from his writings. Likewise always know that the NT writer have read and gave us interpretation of most of the OT writing. This we must follow. So.

1. Moses wrote in the time of the ancient east culture, where we have mostly Agrarian. This must let you know why he used agricultural languages to explain.

2. He wrote primarily to the Israelite not to you or the world. It's God's bigger plan that got the word of God to the world. Moses never had you in mind when writing to Israelite to slice their immediate problem.

3. The NT writer were students of the OT writings, that was their study manual. Hence they have taught the OT in their gathering, churches, epistles. What we must do is to find out where they were teaching from in any of their text and align our taught to theirs if we truly believe they were inspired or God. Hence we won't be looking for our own interpretation nor deviate from their interpretation.

These three points must be emphatic in your interpretations.


So, can we now study along this line of Jesus's and the apostles interpretation of the same text? That's is how Jesus taught and commanded his disciples to read and interpret the scriptures.

And he instructed them to pass the same to us.

Matthew 28:20
...teaching them to observe what so ever I have commanded you.....