DitariDisciple2:


So why are they in all Ijaw socia-cultural organizations without leaving even one behind, but they are not even in one Ibo own.

Ekealterego:

These are very recent publications.

Where are the historical references?

What does the phrase mean?

Who established this link ethnographically first?

All our reference here came from 1800s or before 1906 at best.
Algoa's reference from 1970 just at the end of the war is laughable for obvious reasons that we know.
Yeah, you have other references from 2011... Do you have older references? before 1910 at least.

bomb24:


Kai kai induced rants. Igbos were slaves in bonny as you implied but script dugged out about 200 years ago contradict your statement. the language spoken in bonny is Igbo. the europeans who traded in bonny documented the Igbos as aboriginals and rulers of the Island while the ijos were documented as uncivilised race of men who dwelth in swamps reserved for pigs.

Ekealterego:
1. Your first assertion is correct, Ottams were different. However, Clarke acknowledged the differences in 3 of the "districts". The ones close to the Annangs , Ibibio and the ones close to the Efiks and then the Igbo regions and the languages collected from these different places differs. The one closer to the Igbos have some Igbo elements already.

Ekealterego:
2. No, memoir was explored in that area within the 1700s after Barbot in 1699 and 1705. Except secondary reports from others like Captain Williams but writing from Guinea in 1730-1734.

Maybe some publications in Sierra Leone which was also vague.

The very first exploration after Barbot "onsite" ethnography was in 1823. 120 years later!! This was by Captain Adams in 1823!!

Nobody really started recording Igbos separately as sub-groups until much later. Even the "Bretches" who were considered somewhat "different" because they were notorious for planning uprising and taking over slave ships, were just titled Ichi men.

The studies of specific Igbo sub groups and the differentiations only started around 1830-1840s!!! So, I don't understand where you are getting your theories from.

The very first study of Igbos in Igboland or observation of Igbo within their native area or near their native area was Barbot in 1699. He recorded them as "Hickbaus" or "Heebaus". So, tell me how you knew the subgroups?

Although in Sierra Leone, at first they introduce each other by the name of their towns but OTHERS called them Ibos. They didn't have any choice than to come together because others knew they were the same. The sense of that national cohesion became stronger. It was recorded that the Eboes often "banded together". You think others know the difference?

Ekealterego:
3. Ndoki is not recent. At least, the very very first book that described individual dialects and places within the "Igbo country" recorded Ngwa and Ndoki clearly... They were numerous and already an old cohesive people by that time. They are not as "recent" as you are making it out to be...

SlayerForever:
No be only Perekule na periwinkle

Ekealterego:
These are very recent publications.

Where are the historical references?

What does the phrase mean?

Who established this link ethnographically first?

All our reference here came from 1800s or before 1906.
Algoa's reference from 1970 just at the end of the war is laughable for obvious reasons that we know.
Yeah, you have other references from 2011... Do you have older references? before 1910 at least.

Igboid:


The Perekule thing is ridiculous.
They corrupted King Pepple to Perekule.
These people are good at historical distortions.

I learnt the other day that the top flowing gown we have come to associate Ijaw and other Niger Delta groups with that GEJ wore alot was actually originally called "Eighty Bucks", because that was how much it cost to acquire them those days from the whites.
The illiterate Ijaws Ijawnized the "Eighty Bucks" to "Etibo".
And now the claim "Etibo" to be Ijaw dress.

9Pluto:
This doesn't satisfy my curiosity neither does it do justice to the debate. You oldest reference is barely 50 years ago and it mostly rely on oral history which is flawed for obvious reasons. In my opinion it comes with a lot of burden.

ChinenyeN:


Then I implore you to indulge yourself in reading the bibliographies of these text to find the references you are looking for.

Igboid:
The Onus is for you to provide it here for us.
You are the one making the claim.
The burden of proof rests squarely on you.

ChinenyeN:


You can't possibly think that these references do not also base their works on other, older references as well, both administrative sources, Native Court era documentation, documentary evidence from Portuguese and Spanish traders, etc. The references I gave are due to their nature in providing the chronology and summary of the events. If you seek specific details, feel free to read the bibliographies of these texts as any normal academic would do.

ChinenyeN:


I have already provided that. Unless you want to proclaim now that you do not know how the academia works. Enyi, just feel free to go and peer-review the already peer-reviewed works of these authors and see what their bibliographies list. It's not that hard.

ChinenyeN:
If you're patient enough to wait for me to paste screenshots, then you're patient enough to search up the digitized works by the author, dates and publication names I provided. It's not that hard. Feel free to demand as much as you want, but I won't go out of my way to provide more than what I believe I need to.

ChinenyeN:


It's like we're saying the same thing here. You're simply rehashing my statement.



It seems you misunderstand the point of my statement. The point is simply this: Europeans, due to their extensive slave trading contact with Kalabari and then Bonny, were not ignorant of which groups from the interior. In fact, the Europeans did not need to venture into the interior to get information about these communities, because they could record all they needed from their dealings at Kalabari and Bonny slave markets. Between the 16th - 18th centuries, virtually every group within the Lower Niger passed through Kalabari and Bonny slave markets. Europeans purchased them, catalogued and documented them. These documents include reports and memoirs.



I've dived into this subject multiple times here on NL and also provided recommendations for people to use in researching these points. I won't debate this with you. Rather, I'll simply make the following recommendations.

Afigbo's writings within the Ropes of Sand serialization.
Talbot and Mulhall's works on Physical Anthropology in the Lower Niger region.
Akwaranwa's publication on the politico-cultural history of the Ngwa and Ukwa regions.

Putindbutt:

How does it matter when the language of the slaves was adopted as a lingua franca on a slave trading port?..
Mbanaso, your forefather who was named jaja by the ijaws was a slave too.
Ibos became settlers in Bonny after abolishment of slave trade.

Igboid:
Madam. Ibu ogbu oge.
Ijiro Okwu.

ChinenyeN:


I maala bya agu ta i maa? It's really not that hard, my friend.

Ekealterego:
To tackle to issues here.

1. Can you mention just one memoir from New Kalabar and Bonny between 1700 - 1810? Just one! This is except for Barbot article on "Old Calabar" in 1706?
Barbot was in Old Calabar, "Dony (Andoni), cricke/creek, Bandy (Bonny) and around the area.
Is there any other account or recorded and preserved memoir?

one laden with ethnological accounts.


2. I have referenced and uploaded all Talbot said about Ndoki and there is no place where it mentioned Ndoki being a relatively recent settlement. Talbot even being the oldest of most of the excerpts I uploaded.

ChinenyeN:
Then I implore you to indulge yourself in reading the bibliographies of these text to find the references you are looking for.

Igboid:


Enyia write in standard Igbo.

Ekealterego:
And you know what? I understand Ngwa 100%, in fact no Igbo man from any corner of Igbo land that will not understand Ngwa, but he willfully write unnecessary twists and self-generated spellings and alphabets to trick you into thinking otherwise.

ChinenyeN:




I will not get into a discussion of attrition with you all. Go and read the bibliographies.

bomb24:


low Iq clown, how can the language of the slaves be adopted by the aboriginals of the land is that logical to you? as tiny as the olukumis are in delta state totally surrounded by the aniomas they were still able to retain their language so why is bonny and opobo case different, to date there are no traces of ijo lexicons in there language but rather, there is a deliberate move by the ijos to change their language from Igbo to ijo language.. you need to stop living in denial the ijos were the latter to inhabit the land.

the Igbos were once and to-date rulers of the Islands you and your people can't isolate that history never! their language, culture and their written historical ties to the Igbos will forever burn your soul.

Igboid:


Madam. Ibu ogbu oge.
Ijiro Okwu.

ChinenyeN:


It's like we're saying the same thing here. You're simply rehashing my statement.



It seems you misunderstand the point of my statement. The point is simply this: Europeans, due to their extensive slave trading contact with Kalabari and then Bonny, were not ignorant of which groups from the interior. In fact, the Europeans did not need to venture into the interior to get information about these communities, because they could record all they needed from their dealings at Kalabari and Bonny slave markets. Between the 16th - 18th centuries, virtually every group within the Lower Niger passed through Kalabari and Bonny slave markets. Europeans purchased them, catalogued and documented them. These documents include reports and memoirs.



I've dived into this subject multiple times here on NL and also provided recommendations for people to use in researching these points. I won't debate this with you. Rather, I'll simply make the following recommendations.

Afigbo's writings within the Ropes of Sand serialization.
Talbot and Mulhall's works on Physical Anthropology in the Lower Niger region.
Akwaranwa's publication on the politico-cultural history of the Ngwa and Ukwa regions.

Ekealterego:


And you know what? I understand Ngwa 100%, in fact no Igbo man from any corner of Igbo land that will not understand Ngwa, but he willfully write unnecessary twists and self-generated spellings and alphabets to trick you into thinking otherwise.

Here is a very fast Ngwa speaker.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnyKkman_KE

Ekealterego:

There is a theory I have, but just from historical observation, how their name changed over time. I mean the Wakirike people.

Barbot recorded the name as Creke or something like that. (I will check the right spelling later) but it started with C, and one could pronunce it as "Creeke" or "Creek".
I feel Kirike is a corruption of the word "Creek" or a Portuguese or Latin base meaning of the word "Creek".

The dialectical word for "Nwa" in that area is "Wa". I think that's why they are called, "Wakirike". "Child of the Creeks".

I just hazard that guess, but a logical one from the records of how the names were recorded. Just like how parts of New Calabar became "Kalabari"

N.B. This is my personal observation.

Putindbutt:

Bonny is a mix tribe. The culture and titles are ijohs. Slave trade brought ibos from the interior to Bonny. Mbanaso was installed as a king by his ijoh master. Olukumi have been igbonized even though they aren't ibos. The large concentration of ibos in a given area gives them undue advantage over the less people minorities.
The fact remains that the abolishment of slave trade in 1801 gave ibos the leeway as a freed slaves in Bonny, prior to 1801, ibos were the largest supplier of slaves. It was for purpose of slavery that brought ibos to Bonny.

Ekealterego:

There is a theory I have, but just from historical observation, how their name changed over time. I mean the Wakirike people.

Barbot recorded the name as Creke or something like that. (I will check the right spelling later) but it started with C, and one could pronunce it as "Creeke" or "Creek".
I feel Kirike is a corruption of the word "Creek" or a Portuguese or Latin base meaning of the word "Creek".

The dialectical word for "Nwa" in that area is "Wa". I think that's why they are called, "Wakirike". "Child of the Creeks".

I just hazard that guess, but a logical one from the records of how the names were recorded. Just like how parts of New Calabar became "Kalabari"

N.B. This is my personal observation.

Ekealterego:

What brought Ijohs there... Same accounts showed that Ijohs were brought as slaves there, including the Cross-River people like the "Otams".
The reason why Igbos were numerous was because they were the majority in terms of population from that area. They outnumbered every other group numerically by almost 10 to 1.

Again, the Aros, and Abams (who are Igbos) were prolific slave merchants.

However, most of the books that talked about the first settlers traced it to Igbos.