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Is Jesus Real Or A Myth? A Challenge For Maxindhouse - Religion (4) - Nairaland

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Maxindhouse,janosky & Other Jehovah's Witnesses, Come In Here: / MaxInDHouse Of Jehovah's Witnesses Has Confessed That Jesus Is God / Is Jesus God? (2) (3) (4)

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Re: Is Jesus Real Or A Myth? A Challenge For Maxindhouse by mhmsadyq(m): 6:47pm On Feb 27, 2022
22jumpstreet:
Isn't it obvious that the genealogies of Jesus in Mathew and Luke are forgeries. I mean, what is the purpose of it if Jesus is not related to Joseph by blood.

For good measures, they are even contradictory.

And non of them can produce a Messiah.

Talk about forgeries and propaganda
shocked

1 Like

Re: Is Jesus Real Or A Myth? A Challenge For Maxindhouse by MaxInDHouse(m): 7:09pm On Feb 27, 2022
oteneaaron =110605873:
Now on to our main question - Did Jesus exist or is he just a myth based on ancient mystery religions like Horus, etc?

According to popular methodology, to know if a person actually existed in history, we must investigate the sources and these sources must be reliable.

Still about sources, there are three factors that determine if a source can be addressed as reliable -

1. Direct evidence from the person of interest (if the person wrote about him or herself, the persons house, etc )

2. Secondary Sources like eye witness accounts, stories told about the person etc.

3. Contemporary sources that come from the period of the person's life -

So what do we have about Jesus using the above criteria?

1. Direct evidence - There is NO archeological proof that shows that Jesus actually existed, there have been claims but they cannot be verified.

If Jesus did really exist in history, shouldn't there by actual archeological proof to show this?

At least when we talk about Horus from ancient Egypt, we can still point to the Temple of Luxor that describes the passion of his story.
I told you that "whatever you want to use as proof should be applied on other historical figures"
Did all historical figures write their own stories? NO!
The only place where Jesus walked was Judea and the Romans destroyed that city after Jesus but on the other hand archeologists have discovered evidences pointing to the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth!

oteneaaron =110605873:

2. Contemporary sources -
Let's start with Paul.
The Letters of Paul are on record the very earliest of writings of the new testament, which means it came before any of the four gospels of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John.
Throughout the letters of Paul, why is there no mention to the actual historicity of the Jesus of Nazareth?
Paul was literally the first writer in the new testament and his letters were written at least a couple of decades after the date set for the death of Jesus, so why does He (Paul) not at least mention the historicity of Jesus?
True he mentioned Jesus through out his work, but he was referring to the Spiritual Christ - not a literal man.
And this is exactly what the mystery religions taught in ancient Egypt - no wonder historians describe Paul as a Gnostic Christian.
Like Alvin Boyd Khun said in his book - Who is this king of glory :
“For Paul to write fifteen Epistles, basic treatises on the religion that this man founded, and find no reason to refer even once to anything he said or did would be on the order of one’s writing a thorough treatise on the American Revolution and never once mentioning George Washington!”
I am not done yet.
Flavius Josephus a Jewish historian (though never a Christian) lived in Judea around the year 37 c.e
Google what he wrote about Jesus of Nazareth!

Paul was not a direct eyewitness of Jesus' life and ministry so he couldn't have written what he never witnessed unlike Matthew, Mark, Luke and John who were Jesus' disciples and worked with him.
However Paul became a Christian and his assignment according to Jesus Christ (whom he met on his way to Damascus) is to go and establish Christianity among the gentiles! Act 9:15 compare to 1Timothy 2:7

Gospel Writer Place year
Matthew Matthew Israel 41 c.e.
Mark Mark Rome 60-65 c.e
Luke Luke Caesarea 56-58 c.e
John John Ephesus 98 c.e


All Paul's letters were written between 60-65 c.e smiley
Re: Is Jesus Real Or A Myth? A Challenge For Maxindhouse by MaxInDHouse(m): 7:49pm On Feb 27, 2022
@ oteneaaron.
Please if truly you want to debate about Jesus of Nazareth who lived in the first century can you quote the contemporaries of first century Jews? not individuals like Alvin Boyd Khun who was born in the twentieth century. wink
Re: Is Jesus Real Or A Myth? A Challenge For Maxindhouse by MaxInDHouse(m): 7:55pm On Feb 27, 2022
If you're just joining this thread, please note that it's just a debate between two Nairalanders:
Oteneaaron an atheist/agnostic
And
MaxInDHouse a Christian

The below Oteneaaron's post led to this debate:

oteneaaron:
In this little write-up, these terms would have their meaning in Context as follows:

GOD-- Signifies the "supreme being" from any religion ( Yahweh, Allah, Buhdda, Sango, Krishna, Oduduwa, Owoicho........etc)

MAN-- Signifies You and I ; all humans existing and non-existing(HUMANITY as a whole)

RELIGION-- signifies all of the worlds religion (after-all they are all products of the same factory)



WHO CREATED GOD??

Its no wonder that when you ask he above question to any religious minded person and you're gonna get differing answers.

Ask any creationist : "What is the proof that Man was created ? " , "how do we know that life and all there is had a designer?"

And we receive this reply that -- Man and all there is are intelligent creatures ; the human brain, the universe in general attest to the fact that everything was created by a Supreme Being...

*Please note the argument - an intelligent creation must have an intelligent designer-

So here is the correlation, If you seriously believe that "nothing came from nothing" and there has to be an explanation for our "intelligence",
then GOD must have been created too!!!

WHY?

"GOD" exists and he is very ( if not too Intelligent---common, he's GOD!!).....so what is the explanation for his Intelligence??

If the world as we know it attests to fact of the existence of a creator, then that creator must have been created because HE(GOD) bears the same (proof of an Intelligent creator) Qualities.

Now who created GOD??


Sadly, the answer has been right in Front of Us all this time........

WE created GOD!! You and I , MAN.....

When we were perplexed as to how the universe was sparse and awe-inspiring, we had to give credit to -someone- so we invented GOD

When were Scared because we felt or experience disappointment, death, sickness..etc, we needed Solace and we created GOD to blame and to beg for assistance

When we felt the need to Control our fellow MAN, we created GOD and religion to keep humans in check , after-all they must all answer to our creation -GOD-

GET IT RIGHT...

We created GOD


Now, our creation of GOD may have been a necessary evil, and MAN is growing up....the time has come for us to let go of Childish things!!



Is it true that humans created God?
What about Jesus of Nazareth?
So you're welcome but please note that we don't want interruptions for the moment.

Thank you all! smiley
Re: Is Jesus Real Or A Myth? A Challenge For Maxindhouse by KNOWMORE56: 8:06pm On Feb 27, 2022
22jumpstreet:
The Enuma Elish preceded the Bible by more than a thousand year. The jews got these materials from the trade routes.

Christianity started as the worship of serapis in Egypt.
Some people still worshipped horus as the son, isis asthe mother and Osiris as the father. The serapis Cult was created by ptolomy the first. He was the first pharaoh of Greek decent...he wanted to unify the Greek belief and the Egyptians. He came up with serapis...which isbasically horus and apis combined to form one deity. Serapis had a man's head rather than the animal head the egptian gods had.

At the Council of Ephesus,in 430 BC . serapis became Jesus. The rest is history...

The jews still worship their God. With no associates, after 2000+ years. They still hold their ground..

What is the meaning of BC above?
Re: Is Jesus Real Or A Myth? A Challenge For Maxindhouse by oteneaaron(m): 8:19pm On Feb 27, 2022
MaxInDHouse:

I told you that "whatever you want to use as proof should be applied on other historical figures"
Did all historical figures write their own stories? NO!
The only place where Jesus walked was Judea and the Romans destroyed that city after Jesus but on the other hand archeologists have discovered evidences pointing to the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth!


Flavius Josephus a Jewish historian (though never a Christian) lived in Judea around the year 37 c.e
Google what he wrote about Jesus of Nazareth!

Paul was not a direct eyewitness of Jesus' life and ministry so he couldn't have written what he never witnessed unlike Matthew, Mark, Luke and John who were Jesus' disciples and worked with him.
However Paul became a Christian and his assignment according to Jesus Christ (whom he met on his way to Damascus) is to go and establish Christianity among the gentiles! Act 9:15 compare to 1Timothy 2:7

Gospel Writer Place year
Matthew Matthew Israel 41 c.e.
Mark Mark Rome 60-65 c.e
Luke Luke Caesarea 56-58 c.e
John John Ephesus 98 c.e


All Paul's letters were written between 60-65 c.e smiley

I knew you would mention Josephus.

Be calm.

I am not done yet.

Allow me to finish.

I didn't interrupt you when you laid your points.

Remember I asked you more than once if you were done.

When I am through, you can poke all the holes you want.

Be patient.
Re: Is Jesus Real Or A Myth? A Challenge For Maxindhouse by MaxInDHouse(m): 8:26pm On Feb 27, 2022
oteneaaron:

I knew you would mention Josephus.
Be calm.
I am not done yet.
Allow me to finish.
I didn't interrupt you when you laid your points.
Remember I asked you more than once if you were done.
When I am through, you can poke all the holes you want.
Be patient.

You were ASKING QUESTIONS instead of just presenting your points.
So if you don't want me to INTERRUPT you then don't ask any question, i never asked you any question when presenting my point! wink

1 Like 1 Share

Re: Is Jesus Real Or A Myth? A Challenge For Maxindhouse by MaxInDHouse(m): 9:02pm On Feb 27, 2022
@ oteneaaron
I know you were just presumptuous about the so called research you keep boasting about and that there's nothing you know other than what some unbelievers spoonfed you.
With our discussion so far do you still think everyone claiming Christian is just a novice regarding our faith in Christ Jesus?
Well it's almost the end of the day and so far you've only managed to bring in stories not real evidence regarding what you boasted for.
See you around Sir! wink

2 Likes

Re: Is Jesus Real Or A Myth? A Challenge For Maxindhouse by psychalade: 9:20pm On Feb 27, 2022
The letter J was invented in the year 1524

Meaning all biblical characters having letter "J" as part of their names are forgeries! Also there was no ethnicity on earth called "jew" before the sisteen century, the Bible is not a spiritual book, it is a weapon of control, slavery and oppression. tongue

4 Likes

Re: Is Jesus Real Or A Myth? A Challenge For Maxindhouse by cornelboy(f): 9:40pm On Feb 27, 2022
If the proper name for God was transliterated from YHWH to Jehovah in 1524, did it mean that God started existing in year 1524? cheesy

I like how you presented your own evidence o cheesy
You no hear yourself?
psychalade:
The letter J was invented in the year 1524

Meaning all biblical characters having letter "J" as part of their names are forgeries! Also there was no ethnicity on earth called "jew" before the sisteen century, the Bible is not a spiritual book, it is a weapon of control, slavery and oppression. tongue

2 Likes

Re: Is Jesus Real Or A Myth? A Challenge For Maxindhouse by cornelboy(f): 9:46pm On Feb 27, 2022
Serapis became Jesus 430 BC wink cheesy you don win the argument.
There are fools everywhere nowadays.

KNOWMORE56:


What is the meaning of BC above?
Re: Is Jesus Real Or A Myth? A Challenge For Maxindhouse by psychalade: 10:25pm On Feb 27, 2022
You are deeply entrenched in the program of religion, just hear your self defending the creation of your oppressors, get well soon grin
cornelboy:
If the proper name for God was transliterated from YHWH to Jehovah in 1524, did it mean that God started existing in year 1524? cheesy

I like how you presented your own evidence o cheesy
You no hear yourself?

2 Likes

Re: Is Jesus Real Or A Myth? A Challenge For Maxindhouse by 22jumpstreet: 10:31pm On Feb 27, 2022
KNOWMORE56:


What is the meaning of BC above?

Before christ,

Sorry I meant AD.

Anno Domini
Re: Is Jesus Real Or A Myth? A Challenge For Maxindhouse by 22jumpstreet: 10:35pm On Feb 27, 2022
cornelboy:
How many meaning believe get?
Do you believe I'm yourself?


I don't know the relevance to this discuss.

I am yourself , you are me....

We are both God's spirit experiencing life in two ways..

When we die and are bodies turn to dust and becomes one with the earth.

Our spirit returns to God and becomes 1 with it.

Singularity...

There is nothing to believe if it's true , it's true and it becomes part of my knowledge. I can use it in teaching...if it is a lie, it is a lie and if somebody is trying to deceive you by passing a lie as truth, that is truly evil....so my friend, that you believe does not mean it is true..

Deception is the purest form of evil..

3 Likes 2 Shares

Re: Is Jesus Real Or A Myth? A Challenge For Maxindhouse by success1smyn(m): 10:42pm On Feb 27, 2022
Following

This thread is really educative.

1 Like

Re: Is Jesus Real Or A Myth? A Challenge For Maxindhouse by GardenOfGod(m): 11:15pm On Feb 27, 2022
Backlaw406:

I hope you will say the truth and judge by the debaters' facts not kind of favouritism, preferential treatment, baise and sentiment
Of course I will unbiased in my judgment...

1 Like

Re: Is Jesus Real Or A Myth? A Challenge For Maxindhouse by GardenOfGod(m): 11:34pm On Feb 27, 2022
Hello oo guys... Is the debate over?
Re: Is Jesus Real Or A Myth? A Challenge For Maxindhouse by psychalade: 11:36pm On Feb 27, 2022
I support your post 100%,truth does not need belief. You have no choice than to believe when you do not have knowledge about a thing unfortunately religions does not want its followers to have knowledge, it only requires them to have faith/belief. Religion wants us to assume our brain is for decoration grin
22jumpstreet:


I don't know the relevance to this discuss.

I am yourself , you are me....

We are both God's spirit experiencing life in two ways..

When we die and are bodies turn to dust and becomes one with the earth.

Our spirit returns to God and becomes 1 with it.

Singularity...

There is nothing to believe if it's true , it's true and it becomes part of my knowledge. I can use it in teaching...if it is a lie, it is a lie and if somebody is trying to deceive you by passing a lie as truth, that is truly evil....so my friend, that you believe does not mean it is true..

Deception is the purest form of evil..

3 Likes 1 Share

Re: Is Jesus Real Or A Myth? A Challenge For Maxindhouse by oteneaaron(m): 12:27am On Feb 28, 2022
I am sorry my responses came in late guys.

Unforunately I don't live and breath on Nairaland, plus I had to take sometime to run a few errands and most definitely gather the points from my research.

It is better I take my time to submit my points than rush to post things I can't defend.

I will continue my submissions.

Thank you!

1 Like

Re: Is Jesus Real Or A Myth? A Challenge For Maxindhouse by oteneaaron(m): 12:31am On Feb 28, 2022
Moving on to the Gospels -

Mark, Mathew, Luke and John are the only sources we have of a "biographical" Jesus

But were these reports really eye witness reports?

I don't think so, and this is why -

Like I mentioned earlier, the letters of Paul are the earliest writings in New testament - written around 58CE

And Mark as the first Gospel written after Paul's letters, that is even after the Jewish - Roman War between 66 - 70 CE

But there is still evidence that the Gospels of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John were even written much later after 90CE

One reason is that many of the early Christian writers didn't speak much about these gospels.

For example, in the first letter of Clement of Rome (written c. 95 C.E.), he cited the Old Testament as “scripture” over a hundred times, and frequently refers to Hebrews and some of Paul’s letters, though he considers them as “good counsel,” not scripture.

But oddly, Clement never refers to any Gospel. - Why?

This means Clement of Rome a prominent church leader had no knowledge of the Gospels.

Moreso, it is also well known that the Gospel of Mathew and Luke were even written later because a careful study these Gospels show that they are both direct copies from the Gospel of Mark.

Check this for yourself -

Out of the 661 verses of the Gospel of Mark,

Luke uses about 360 direct verses and Mathew uses about 607 direct verses from the Gospel of Mark.

If Matthew and Luke were actual eye witness accounts why did they have to copy that much verses from Mark?

... I am not yet done

1 Like

Re: Is Jesus Real Or A Myth? A Challenge For Maxindhouse by oteneaaron(m): 12:51am On Feb 28, 2022
oteneaaron:
Moving on to the Gospels -

Mark, Mathew, Luke and John are the only sources we have of a "biographical" Jesus

But were these reports really eye witness reports?

I don't think so, and this is why -

Like I mentioned earlier, the letters of Paul are the earliest writings in New testament - written around 58CE

And Mark as the first Gospel written after Paul's letters, that is even after the Jewish - Roman War between 66 - 70 CE

But there is still evidence that the Gospels of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John were even written much later after 90CE

One reason is that many of the early Christian writers didn't speak much about these gospels.

For example, in the first letter of Clement of Rome (written c. 95 C.E.), he cited the Old Testament as “scripture” over a hundred times, and frequently refers to Hebrews and some of Paul’s letters, though he considers them as “good counsel,” not scripture.

But oddly, Clement never refers to any Gospel. - Why?

This means Clement of Rome a prominent church leader had no knowledge of the Gospels.

Moreso, it is also well known that the Gospel of Mathew and Luke were even written later because a careful study these Gospels show that they are both direct copies from the Gospel of Mark.

Check this for yourself -

Out of the 661 verses of the Gospel of Mark,

Luke uses about 360 direct verses and Mathew uses about 607 direct verses from the Gospel of Mark.

If Matthew and Luke were actual eye witness accounts why did they have to copy that much verses from Mark?

... I am not done yet

Still on the Gospels,

If they were eye witness accounts why is there no consistent image of Jesus from each gospel accounts?

Why do they contradict each other?

Let's investigate the comparison of Jesus in each Gospel shall we?

Stay with me, it gets fuzzy from here..

The Jesus of the book of Mark--

1. Mark’s Jesus is a fallible, suffering human.

2. There is no miraculous account of his birth; his story begins when he becomes God’s son at his baptism (1:11),

3. He is a “secret messiah,” not only denying that he is God (10:18), but hiding his true identity, disguising his message and teaching his followers in secret: “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside, everything comes in parables, in order that they may indeed look, but not perceive, and may indeed listen, but not understand . . .” (4:11-12).

4. Mark’s Jesus uses traditional pagan magic techniques (spit and magic words) to heal the blind and deaf, but not always successfully (7:32-35; 8:23-25).

5. He loses his temper sometimes, both with people (8:33; 9:19), and with inanimate objects – infamously cursing (and withering) a fig tree after failing to find figs on it – because it was not yet fig season (11:12-14).

6. He can even be a bit of a jerk. He initially refuses to cast out a devil from a Gentile woman's daughter, telling her it is not right to take the children of Israel’s bread and toss it to the dogs (7:25-27).

7. In the garden of Gethsemane, Mark’s Jesus fares the worst. He is distressed and agitated (14:33), even “sorrowful unto death” (14:34).

He goes off on his own, and then breaks down completely, falling to the ground on his face (14:35) and prays three times to take away the cup of suffering from him (14:36,39,41), stopping in between to scold the disciples for falling asleep on the job (14:37-38,40) before finally telling them sarcastically, “Fine, go ahead and sleep now; look, here they come to arrest me” (41-42).

8. Mark’s Jesus repeatedly tells people he will return during their lifetimes (9:1; 13:30; 14:62) and dies in despair on the cross crying words cribbed from the opening line of the 22nd Psalm: “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Re: Is Jesus Real Or A Myth? A Challenge For Maxindhouse by cornelboy(f): 1:01am On Feb 28, 2022
I wanted to ask "do you believe in yourself?"

Do you believe in the bible? What's your religion?


22jumpstreet:


I don't know the relevance to this discuss.

I am yourself , you are me....

[s]We are both God's spirit experiencing life in two ways..[/s]

When we die and are bodies turn to dust and becomes one with the earth.

[s]Our spirit returns to God and becomes 1 with it. [/s]

Singularity...

There is nothing to believe if it's true , it's true and it becomes part of my knowledge. I can use it in teaching...if it is a lie, it is a lie and if somebody is trying to deceive you by passing a lie as truth, that is truly evil....so my friend, that you believe does not mean it is true..

Deception is the purest form of evil..
Re: Is Jesus Real Or A Myth? A Challenge For Maxindhouse by cornelboy(f): 1:06am On Feb 28, 2022
Sorry bro I de feel your pain. It seems religion has really hurt you. Why don't you come to the true religion?

psychalade:
You are deeply entrenched in the program of religion, just hear your self defending the creation of your oppressors, get well soon grin
Re: Is Jesus Real Or A Myth? A Challenge For Maxindhouse by oteneaaron(m): 1:10am On Feb 28, 2022
Let us analyze the Jesus of Mathews Gospel (remember that I mentioned earlier that Mathew copied about 607 direct verses from Mark) -

1. Matthew’s Jesus is also a most Jewish Jesus, a rabbi who upholds the Torah, insisting “not one jot or stroke of the Law will pass away” (5:17–19).

2. He wears a prayer shawl tasseled with tzitzit (9:20-22),

3. Observes the Sabbath (12:1-8 ), teaches, worships and heals in synagogues as well as the Temple (4:23; 9:35; 14:21).

4. Matthew doesn’t just correct mistakes Mark makes, he also fixes mistakes Mark’s Jesus makes, even removing anything that makes his Jesus look less than perfect.

For example, in Mark 6:5-6, Jesus is unable to do any “mighty work” in his (unnamed) hometown and is amazed at their unbelief (even though just 3 verses before the crowds are astonished by his learning).

Matthew will have none of that. He cuts out Jesus being taken by surprise, and changes “could not” do mighty works to “did not” (13:58).

5. Contrary to Mark’s Jesus, Matthew’s Jesus doesn’t say that he will return any moment now. Instead his Jesus says he will come back … some day, and gives a parable against slacking off just because the Lord delays his coming (Matt. 24: 42-51).

6. Matthew switches Jesus’ lasts words from Aramaic to Hebrew so that he cries out “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani” not “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani.” Mark wanted the bystanders to think Jesus is calling for Elijah (Mark 15:34-35).

Unfortunately, his play on words only works in Hebrew, not in Aramaic. It makes no sense for the bystanders to think that Jesus is calling for the prophet Eli if Jesus was saying “Eloi.”

7. Matthew changes the quote to Hebrew; this is historically incorrect for someone like Jesus to have spoken, but at least it makes the pun work (27:46).

As we have seen, the Jesus in Mark and the Jesus in Matthew bear unique differences.

Why should this happen if they were both eye witness accounts?

Shouldn't the stories at least corollate?

Let's investigate the Jesus of of the Gospel of Luke and John.

Stay with me.
Re: Is Jesus Real Or A Myth? A Challenge For Maxindhouse by oteneaaron(m): 1:29am On Feb 28, 2022
The Jesus in the Gospel of Luke -

1. Right from the manger, Luke’s Jesus is wonderful and faultless. Even as a boy of twelve, he amazes his exasperated parents when they lose him for a few days only to finally find him in the temple, confounding the teachers of the law with his knowledge (2:40-52).

2. He never feels despair, doubt or fear and remains unfazed in tight corners.

Jesus is surprised to be unable to work miracles in Mark 6:5-6;

Matthew says he was unsurprised and able but just unwilling (13:58);

Luke’s Jesus tops them both. Not only is his Jesus not surprised, he even anticipates all this difficulty, and then effortlessly breezes out of the clutches of a lynch mob for good measure (4:16-30).

3. Unlike Mark’s Jesus who was in anguish in the moments before his death (and Matthew’s copycat Jesus),

Unlike them, he doesn’t feel the need to take Peter, James and John along for any moral support. Nor does he become distressed or agitated, or “sorrowful unto death.” He doesn’t collapse to the ground but simply kneels (22:41) and

4. He prays just once (not three times), asking God politely, if he would be willing, to please remove the cup (22:42).

5. He doesn’t berate the disciples, like Mark’s and Matthew’s Jesuses. Instead, he rouses them just once, as Judas is arriving (22:46).

6. While Mark’s Jesus dies in anguish and despair, Luke’s Jesus exits with composure and acceptance.

Luke dispenses with the words of the 22nd Psalm altogether and takes his Jesus’ parting line from Psalm 31:5: “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit” (23:46).

7. And contradicting Mark’s Jesus, Luke repeats Matthew’s parable, in virtually identical language, that the Lord will NOT be right back during his followers’ lifetimes after all (12: 42-46).

Still again I ask - if the Gospels were all "eye witness" accounts, why do they contradict each other?

Why is Jesus in each Gospel different from each other?

1 Like

Re: Is Jesus Real Or A Myth? A Challenge For Maxindhouse by oteneaaron(m): 1:50am On Feb 28, 2022
The Jesus of the Gospel of John.

In this Gospel, he is almost like Superman and goes against the standard of the other Jesus's from the other Gospels.

Not only is he no secret Messiah at all, he has a radically different personality, much more large and in charge, in total control at all times.

1. This Jesus knows he’s God, and he doesn’t care who knows it! He is constantly talking about his divinity and declaring himself to be the bread of life (6:35, and again in 6:41 and 6:48),

The living bread that came down from Heaven (6:51),

The light of the world (8:12 and 9:5),

From above and not of this world (8:23),

The Son of Man (8:28),

The good shepherd (10:11),

The resurrection and the life (11:25),

The way, and the truth, and the life (14:6),

The true vine (15:1) and even says “Very truly, I tell you, before Abraham was, I am” (8:58).

2. John’s Jesus is not born of a virgin; he matter-of-factly states that Jesus is Joseph’s son without comment (1:45).

3. Nor is he born in Bethlehem; John consistently denies any Bethlehem link, insisting that Jesus comes from Nazareth in the Galilee (1:45-46; 7:41-42, 52,)

4. Unlike the other Gospels, when John the Baptist says he’s not fit to baptize him, John agrees – no baptism for the perfect and sin-free Messiah in this Gospel.

5. The ministry of John’s Jesus is in striking disagreement to the other Gospels, which say that it lasted only about a year, took place mainly in the Galilee, and that Jesus came to Jerusalem only once, at the very end of his life.

In contrast, John stretches it out over three years and centers action mostly in Judea around Jerusalem, where he goes back and forth often.

6. In the previous Gospels, Jesus drives the moneychangers from the Temple at the very end of his career, in the week before his crucifixion (Mark 11:15-18, Matt 21:12-13, Luke 19:45-47).

Mark even tells us this is why the Jewish leaders start plotting his death (Mark 11:18).

But not John’s tough-guy Jesus; his 3-year career begins by thrashing those defilers of the Temple with a homemade scourge (John 2:13-16).

7. John’s Jesus also has an entirely different speaking style. He gives no parables, no snappy Cynic-style comebacks, no Sermon on the Mount (like Matthew) or Sermon on the Plain (like Luke),

8. No Beatitudes: no Blessed are the Meek, no Love thy Neighbor, no Suffer the Little Children, no Consider the Lilies of the Field, no Turn the other Cheek.

The poor and the suffering may be the focus of his ministry in the other Gospels, but they barely get a mention from John’s Jesus.

There is more, but let's stop here for now...

Again I ask, if the Gospels were truly "eye witness" accounts, why are there stark differences between the Jesus in each Gospel?

You know the answer.

But we still have more issues to trash out.

Let us continue.

1 Like

Re: Is Jesus Real Or A Myth? A Challenge For Maxindhouse by oteneaaron(m): 2:13am On Feb 28, 2022
From the side by side analysis of the Gospels I have done above so far, we have found out that-

1. Mark's Gospel was the first to be written, and Mathew and Luke were so lazy that they copied hundreds of verses word for word from him.

2. The story Jesus in each Gospel do not corollate, instead they contradict each other.

Again I ask - if these Gospels were actual "eye witness" accounts of the life and story of Jesus, why do they contradict each other?

Let us move on to a point @MaxinDhouse brought up about the words of Flavius Josephus and if this proves Jesus really existed.

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Re: Is Jesus Real Or A Myth? A Challenge For Maxindhouse by oteneaaron(m): 7:07am On Feb 28, 2022
MaxInDHouse:

Flavius Josephus a Jewish historian (though never a Christian) lived in Judea around the year 37 c.e
Google what he wrote about Jesus of Nazareth!

The body of material MaxInDHouse is referring to are passages/paragraphs from the book written by Flavius Josephus called the - Antiquities of the Jews -

The first passage or paragraph MaxInDHouse mentions is as also known as the - Testimonium Flavianum -

For the purpose of reference, this is what it states - -

“Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was (the) Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.“ (Ant., book 18, chapter 3)

Now it is a fact that this book - Antiquities of the Jews - was written in the year 93CE or 94CE that is more than 60 years after the "death of Jesus".

It is very important to note that Josephus wrote his book, not when Jesus was still alive, but more than 60 years years after his death.

With that out of the way, we need to prove the authencity of the Testimonium Flavanium and the reason is that, the Testimonium was added about 300 years after the original work was written by Josephus.

The Testimonium Flavianum that MaxInDHouse the house refers to is not an original work and has proven to be a fake statement.

Let me explain why.

There are two reasons why many scholars agree that the Testimonium should not be taken as actual history but as a fake statement:

The first reason is that the majority of the early Christian writers who were alive during the period when the first version of the - Antiquities of the Jews - was written, never mentioned nor quoted the Testimonium.

What proof do we have for this?

Well for one, throughout the years when Josephus first wrote his book, it was extensively quoted from and used as a reference for many of early Christian writers like Justin Martyr, Theophilus Antiochenus, Melito of Sardis, Minucius Felix, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Julius Africanus, Pseudo-Justin, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Origen, Methodius and Lactantius.

Origen in particular relied extensively on him; his own writings are filled with references to Josephus.

But it is obvious Origen had never heard of the Testimonium. When his skeptical Roman opponent Celsus asks what miracles Jesus performed, Origen answers that Jesus’ life was indeed full of striking and miraculous events, “but from what other source can we can furnish an answer than from the Gospel narratives?” (ContraCelsum, 2.33)

In the same book (1.47), Origen even quotes from - Antiquities of the Jews - in order to prove the historical existence of John the Baptist, then adds that Josephus didn’t believe in Jesus, and criticizes him for failing to mention Jesus in that book!

So if the Testimonium Flavianum was there from the very beginning and wasn't an addition that happen almost 300 later, how come these early Christian writers never talked about it as we have seen that they extensively commented on the book written by Josephus?

Stay with me, I am getting somewhere.

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Re: Is Jesus Real Or A Myth? A Challenge For Maxindhouse by MaxInDHouse(m): 7:15am On Feb 28, 2022
I haven't gotten anything tangible in the stories oteneaaron is telling all this while o! undecided
Jesus has a genealogy through his mother.
So he has relatives, friends and nation to which he belongs.
He has brothers and sisters.
He has an occupation.
He has a teaching globally known today.
And adherents of his teachings are still living by it till today.

So can we also say the same with your Horus?

The gospel accounts were written according to what each person SAW/ HEARD/ DID and PARTICIPATED during Jesus' life and ministry.
So each gospel writer penned down what they can explain.
Whoever feels their account is false simply because they didn't pen down exactly the same thing should first consider events that happened in a certain place then think of four individuals each using a camera to take pictures and videos from different angles, surely they will all conclude on the same outcome of the event but the pictures and videos will differ due to differences in where each person stands to take the shot! smiley

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Re: Is Jesus Real Or A Myth? A Challenge For Maxindhouse by MaxInDHouse(m): 7:26am On Feb 28, 2022
oteneaaron:


The body of material MaxInDHouse is referring to are passages/paragraphs from the book written by Flavius Josephus called the - Antiquities of the Jews -

The first passage or paragraph MaxInDHouse mentions is as also known as the - Testimonium Flavianum -

For the purpose of reference, this is what it states - -

“Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was (the) Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.“ (Ant., book 18, chapter 3)

Now it is a fact that this book - Antiquities of the Jews - was written in the year 93CE or 94CE that is more than 60 years after the "death of Jesus".

It is very important to note that Josephus wrote his book, not when Jesus was still alive, but more than 60 years years after his death.

With that out of the way, we need to prove the authencity of the Testimonium Flavanium and the reason is that, the Testimonium was added about 300 years after the original work was written by Josephus.

The Testimonium Flavianum that MaxInDHouse the house refers to is not an original work and has proven to be a fake statement.

Let me explain why.

There are two reasons why many scholars agree that the Testimonium should not be taken as actual history but as a fake statement:

The first reason is that the majority of the early Christian writers who were alive during the period when the first version of the - Antiquities of the Jews - was written, never mentioned nor quoted the Testimonium.

What proof do we have for this?

Well for one, throughout the years when Josephus first wrote his book, it was extensively quoted from and used as a reference for many of early Christian writers like Justin Martyr, Theophilus Antiochenus, Melito of Sardis, Minucius Felix, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Julius Africanus, Pseudo-Justin, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Origen, Methodius and Lactantius.

Origen in particular relied extensively on him; his own writings are filled with references to Josephus.

But it is obvious Origen had never heard of the Testimonium. When his skeptical Roman opponent Celsus asks what miracles Jesus performed, Origen answers that Jesus’ life was indeed full of striking and miraculous events, “but from what other source can we can furnish an answer than from the Gospel narratives?” (ContraCelsum, 2.33)

In the same book (1.47), Origen even quotes from - Antiquities of the Jews - in order to prove the historical existence of John the Baptist, then adds that Josephus didn’t believe in Jesus, and criticizes him for failing to mention Jesus in that book!

So if the Testimonium Flavianum was there from the very beginning and wasn't an addition that happen almost 300 later, how come these early Christian writers never talked about it as we have seen that they extensively commented on the book written by Josephus?

Stay with me, I am getting somewhere.

I thought you demanded for a contemporary who mentioned "Jesus" in his writing? cheesy
So Flavius Josephus's writing is false as well shey? cheesy
Matthew is false
Mark is false
Luke is false
John is false because they are all Jesus' disciples.
Now Flavius Josephus (not a Christian) who also lived close to that time and can tell us something about the events happening around the time is also false shey! cheesy

No wahala, your research is accurately perfect and fully understood! cheesy
Re: Is Jesus Real Or A Myth? A Challenge For Maxindhouse by 22jumpstreet: 7:31am On Feb 28, 2022
cornelboy:
I wanted to ask "do you believe in yourself?"

Do you believe in the bible? What's your religion?



I believe in myself. At least I know what I can and can't do.

It is not about believing...nobody is asking you to.

Read it,learn the principles in it and apply it to your life.

The only way to show you have done ao is living the principles in it.
Nobody will ask you to believe that a snake spoke to a human. You, yourself should know it is not possible.
Read the story, understand it and apply the principles...


It is not rocket science..

3 Likes

Re: Is Jesus Real Or A Myth? A Challenge For Maxindhouse by oteneaaron(m): 7:35am On Feb 28, 2022
oteneaaron:


The body of material MaxInDHouse is referring to are passages/paragraphs from the book written by Flavius Josephus called the - Antiquities of the Jews -

The first passage or paragraph MaxInDHouse mentions is as also known as the - Testimonium Flavianum -

For the purpose of reference, this is what it states - -

“Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was (the) Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.“ (Ant., book 18, chapter 3)

Now it is a fact that this book - Antiquities of the Jews - was written in the year 93CE or 94CE that is more than 60 years after the "death of Jesus".

It is very important to note that Josephus wrote his book, not when Jesus was still alive, but more than 60 years years after his death.

With that out of the way, we need to prove the authencity of the Testimonium Flavanium and the reason is that, the Testimonium was added about 300 years after the original work was written by Josephus.

The Testimonium Flavianum that MaxInDHouse the house refers to is not an original work and has proven to be a fake statement.

Let me explain why.

There are two reasons why many scholars agree that the Testimonium should not be taken as actual history but as a fake statement:

The first reason is that the majority of the early Christian writers who were alive during the period when the first version of the - Antiquities of the Jews - was written, never mentioned nor quoted the Testimonium.

What proof do we have for this?

Well for one, throughout the years when Josephus first wrote his book, it was extensively quoted from and used as a reference for many of early Christian writers like Justin Martyr, Theophilus Antiochenus, Melito of Sardis, Minucius Felix, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Julius Africanus, Pseudo-Justin, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Origen, Methodius and Lactantius.

Origen in particular relied extensively on him; his own writings are filled with references to Josephus.

But it is obvious Origen had never heard of the Testimonium. When his skeptical Roman opponent Celsus asks what miracles Jesus performed, Origen answers that Jesus’ life was indeed full of striking and miraculous events, “but from what other source can we can furnish an answer than from the Gospel narratives?” (ContraCelsum, 2.33)

In the same book (1.47), Origen even quotes from - Antiquities of the Jews - in order to prove the historical existence of John the Baptist, then adds that Josephus didn’t believe in Jesus, and criticizes him for failing to mention Jesus in that book!

So if the Testimonium Flavianum was there from the very beginning and wasn't an addition that happen almost 300 later, how come these early Christian writers never talked about it as we have seen that they extensively commented on the book written by Josephus?

Stay with me, I am getting somewhere.

So who was the first person to begin quoting the the Testimonium - that is 300 years after the original work by Josephus?

He is a man called the "Notorious Bishop Eusebius of Caesarea"

Who was Eusebius and why was he called Notorious?

In addition to being bishop of Caesarea, and courtier and biographer of the Emperor Constantine, he was the very first Christian historian, still venerated by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches as “the Father of Ecclesiastical History.”

In a very real sense, he is responsible for virtually everything we know about the early centuries of Christianity.

But despite this, history has not been kind to Eusebius.

Why?

Eusebius has on countless occasions been proven to be a master of forgery.

Over two dozen complaints from his contemporaries still survive: accusations of lack of integrity, poor scholarship, deliberate misrepresentations in his histories, and hypocrisy.

Read - Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon

Some of his alleged forgeries include -

1. A pair of letters between the ruler of Edessa and Jesus himself (the legend of the letters went on to include the Mandylion, or “Holy Face of Edessa” – a self-portrait of Jesus!),

2. Alterations to Flavius Josephus’ Antiquities, deliberate falsification of dates, swiping from a Roman novel to create Christian martyr “biographies,” and

3. Forging a heretical succession to make it appear rival Christian factions were just a small knot of misguided crackpot heretics from much later who all inherited their errors from one another.

Eusebius had no difficulty in altering any inconvenient aspects of reality that didn’t suit him. In fact, he seemed to doctor the facts habitually and constantly; he re-wrote his official church history at least five times.

So three hundred years after Josephus, the Testimonium Flavinium makes its first appearance in three books of Eusebius, who cites it from his copy of Antiquities of the Jews.
And where did Eusebius get his copy of Antiquities of the Jews?

He inherited it from his master... who inherited it from Origen.

The same Origen who never heard of the passage! No matter how you slice it, the Testimonium sticks out like the complete fraud it is, and Bishop Eusebius is prime suspect for the forgery.

Think about this very carefully -

If Josephus actually wrote the passage of the Testimonium, don't you think the early Church fathers would have gladly quoted from it as proof that Jesus really existed?

Why did we have to wait for 300 years before Eusebius who has been identified as a forgery be the first to quote from the Testimonium?

This throws away the statement from MaxInDHouse.

Josephus NEVER mentioned those words.

This proves that Josephus didn't know about any Jesus who lived and died at least 60 years before he wrote his book - Antiquities of the Jews.

Or is MaxInDHouse saying we should trust the words of Eusebius - a proven forgery?

I don't think so.

The Testimonium Flavanium cannot be trusted as a reliable contemporary source to prove the existence of Jesus.

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