Mr. Yakubu,
It will be better you end this discussion with people like pelezico and 1stcitizen, these guys have hardeened their heart. They know the truth but they have decided to follow the work of their father. This is exactly what their father did to God that led to what happened in the garden of eden, their father want to question God sovereignty.
My Joy is JW name has been vindicated on this thread and on this site.
Let them go and sort out their numerous problems and confussion with Islam, with paying TITHE or not, with Christmas, with Hell and the rest.
These guys just want to sylishly learn the facts from us.
They even said earliar that we are cult,
now they have seen the truth
it is left for them to choose.

pelezico:


10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Anu Yakubu:


''For we are a product of his work and were created in union with Christ Jesus for [b]good works, which God prepared in advance for us to walk in them.''[/b][i][/i]

@Pelezico:

I just quoted from yours and mine version. From the boldens, can you understand that work is essential to accompany faith for salvation? Yes.

You cannot just profess with your mouth that you have faith, and Bang!, you are saved. Ok?[img][/img]
Seeking righteousness, seeking meekness etc are part of the good works essential to demonstrate your faith for salvation.
JWs moving from door to door to decalre the good news(Matthew 24:14) about God's kingdom and sharing what the Bible really teach, is part of the work they do to accompany thier faith for salvation. Romans 10:10 says and i quote ''For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation.''

And finally, please go throuh the research work attached and follow through with your own Bible.
And this time around, quit being ignorant.

ibukun obi:

Mr. Yakubu,
It will be better you end this discussion with people like pelezico and 1stcitizen, these guys have hardeened their heart. They know the truth but they have decided to follow the work of their father. This is exactly what their father did to God that led to what happened in the garden of eden, their father want to question God sovereignty.
My Joy is JW name has been vindicated on this thread and on this site.
Let them go and sort out their numerous problems and confussion with Islam, with paying TITHE or not, with Christmas, with Hell and the rest.
These guys just want to sylishly learn the facts from us.
They even said earliar that we are cult,
now they have seen the truth
it is left for them to choose.

@Ibukun:
I know how you feel about getting people Pelezico to understand simple Bible passages. As you can see, he is more interested in argument than submitting to Bible truths. But then, we just still have to try harder, it's not really his fault, that's what he has been taught from youth up, Just to confess you have faith and be saved regardless of the kind of activities you engage in, whether you are a liar, thief, killer, fornicator etc.

Also remember that it's not all about Pelezico, a lot of honesthearted ones that can differentiate between left and right, are scrolling through this topic, and can be helped through the few points we have highlighted from the scriptures, on this same issue.

If you think Pelezico is not accepting the truth from the scripture, what would you now think of some that are blaspheming against JWs that they are Cultists.
These ones dont even compare the activities of Cultists with that of JWs, as to whether they are same. JWs selflessly move to help people understand Bible truth that change thier lives form wild ones to that of righteous ones, with thousands of people dedicating thier lives to God and getting baptized yearly, which Cult group would ever do that?
Remember that if it was done to Jesus, how much more his followers, didnt he imply that. Imagine as innocent as Jesus was, he was not just called a Thief, but was purnished as a thief. So, is there any reason for you to be surprised when people use such mean words to describe JWs.

Please dont give up on him, this same Pelezico to your greatest surprise could one day be doing the same thing we are doing right now someday, trying to help others to understand Bible truth, whether they are hardhearted or not. God would use the person you least expected. Didn't he use Apostle Paul as mean as he was to the first century xtians? So be patient.

niviso:

Pls what is required to remain in an approved condition before God? Is it the faith you had when you repented or is it the your effort at remainng pure? What is that effort you put? What does Mat. 24 :13 call for? Just faith? Pls lets think.
Pls who has other translations of James 2:4. I want to see them pls, pls.

@Niviso:
Please quote bible verses while answering this question. Once you do, then i will give answers to your questions.
How can you determine whether you or someone have faith or not?

Anu Yakubu:

@Pelezico:

I just quoted from yours and mine version. From the boldens, can you understand that work is essential to accompany faith for salvation? Yes.

You cannot just profess with your mouth that you have faith, and slam!, you are saved. Ok?[img][/img]
Seeking righteousness, seeking meekness etc are part of the good works essential to demonstrate your faith for salvation.
JWs moving from door to door to decalre the good news(Matthew 24:14) about God's kingdom and sharing what the Bible really teach, is part of the work they do to accompany thier faith for salvation. Romans 10:10 says and i quote ''For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation.''

You never answered my question - its either faith or works.  

You have not understood what I wrote and thats troubling.  No one can know if anybody is saved except God yet a changed life is evidence of one.  So if some professes faith i simply watch and see if i see fruit from there lives.  You can go door to door all you want but that wont save you at all.  

So the bible says to test every Spirit.  Not only does faith without works trouble you but from  your posts it's evident that JW's see themselves as exclusive from the traditional Church. The Church, not the the Church of England or Catholics, but from those who have been called out of the world by God into the Church by faith.  Thats actually a positive thing for us true believers because your doctrine especially of faith and of Christ is heretical.  Separation here was necessary.  As the bible says "send them out to Satan for the destruction of the flesh" - tough but true

Notice that i have not told you what denomination I belong to. Why? Its does not matter because i can have true brotherly fellowship with a Calvinist, Methodist, Baptist, Church of England, Pentecostal etc etc.  There are subtle differences in doctrine but we all recognize faith justifies the beleive and that Christ is part  of the Triune God.  You deny both to  your peril.  Whereas i can read the bible alone you need help from Watch Tower - a secret minority of folks who interpret the bible for you based on a translation that has heretical teachings.  Therefore the reason wyy i called JWs a cult.

@ibukun obi  Its funny JWs come in 2s one whos well learned and other who is not  
Ill sign off with this - and thank you for listening - i'll be praying for you

1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?[a]
4 Have you experienced[b] so much in vain—if it really was in vain?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?
6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”



edit 1
[s]A subtle difference but very important indeed. Now where in the Greek
[/s]

Anu Yakubu:

@Niviso:
Please quote bible verses while answering this question. Once you do, then i will give answers to your questions.
How can you determine whether you or someone have faith or not?

1John 2:26

These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will[e] abide in Him.

Romans 8:12

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

if you are children of God by spirit, please try to find out which side you belong, the Heavenly blessing of that of the earth. READ:
We are now on the threshold of a new world promised by God. “There are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise,” wrote the apostle Peter, “and in these righteousness is to dwell.” (2 Peter 3:13) After reading those words of Peter, some may conclude that this planet will never become a paradise. They may think that the physical heavens and earth will be replaced. Can that be so?

What are the “new heavens”? They are not the physical heavens that were created by God. (Psalm 19:1, 2) Peter had just referred to symbolic “heavens”—human governments that are lifted up or exalted above their subjects. (2 Peter 3:10-12) These “heavens” have failed mankind and will pass away. (Jeremiah 10:23; Daniel 2:44) The “new heavens” that will replace them is God’s Kingdom made up of the King Jesus Christ and his 144,000 joint-heirs resurrected to heavenly life.—Romans 8:16, 17; Revelation 5:9, 10; 14:1, 3.

The “new earth” that Peter mentioned is not a new planet. Jehovah made the earth perfect for everlasting human life. (Psalm 104:5) At times, the Bible refers to “the earth” when people are meant. (Genesis 11:1) The earth that will soon be destroyed consists of people who have made themselves part of this wicked world. Similarly, a world of ungodly people suffered destruction in the Flood of Noah’s day. (2 Peter 3:5-7) What, then, is the “new earth”? It is a new society of people—God’s true worshippers, who are “upright in their hearts.” (Psalm 125:4; 1 John 2:17)

Please go to rev 14:1-5 and see if you are qualified.

Pelezico
As to my last comment of yesterday, I was a bit hash, i tender my appology for that, at times some of your comments make people get upset, even Jesus casted WOE on scribes and pharisees, am just a human, i withdraw my odd comments and please accept my appology for that.

@ibukun obi

Your humility is putting coals of fire on my head - however i wont let you get of easily -

The answer to the new heaven and new Earth - though im not familiar with all the scriptures - is hinted or explained in Romans 8. The bible says here that God subjected his creation to a type of vanity which includes the Earth. Everything within this reality became subject to the law of entropy after the fall. This Universe is gradually winding down albeit very slowly (assumptions based on teh longevity of our sun) and the effects of this winding down is evident in livings things but the law behind it ( Im no scientists but for simplicity sake) is entropy.

In Romans 8 when the children of God are revealed (changed from corruptible to incorruptible, mortal to immortal as explained in Corinthians 15 - this was written to Gentile believers) then everything within this reality will be changed back to the state God created it in before the fall. The Earth and the Heavens will be "changed" (whether that is before or after the millennial reign is not important) and Gods new Heavenly Jerusalem - His dwelling - will inhabit the Earth.

I have not studied Revelations deeply but i do know that the 144000 are most likely the post tribulation Jews. I arrive at that by simply reading the text. By Gods grace i will not be around to witness that since that period will be the most violent period in human history.

The danger of making a theology from Revelations is that the events are shut up for the period in which they were written for. We are seeing them unfold right now but many things are still a mystery.

And yes i do qualify for i am, by his unmeritable grace, the bride (as are all who are saved from his wrath) and i await his return whether by death or his glorious return to Earth

Now, "every good tree shall bear good fruit"!

Going through this thread, even that gradually became "obvious"!.

Still dishing out "Thanks" to everyone that contributed to making this thread "a learning experience".
I did learn from it, a lot.

Even if it is just " a single Biblical truth" that has been espoused here, it is one more lie of the Devil, torn to shreds!

I wont say "encore" but gradually, its winding down.

Cheers 2 everyone.

Lastpage

i can see so much have being discussed and the thread is more or less a discussion among differing christian sects.as a muslim,it would be totally out of place to try to bring in my beliefs or propagate what i believe about JWs as i do comment on them randomly on this forum in particular.when it comes to beliefs and practices JWs are highly programmed and they hold many half-truths and fallacies and have based their religion on them.for the unsuspecting and the ignorant ones,it is very hard to untangle the webs the watchtower has spun.

i would stop short anyways,as i earlier mentioned that a thread was opened before this where i made some contributions:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-4050.288.html

for the die-hard JWs,it may be of interest for them to look at the site below and examine it.many accounts from ex-JWs are given.hope they do not hesitate to do that under any religious pretext which aims to imprison their thoughts and thinking:

http://www.sixscreensofthewatchtower.com/

LagosShia:

i can see so much have being discussed and the thread is more or less a discussion among differing christian sects.as a muslim,it would be totally out of place to try to bring in my beliefs or propagate what i believe about JWs as i do comment on them randomly on this forum in particular.when it comes to beliefs and practices JWs are highly programmed and they hold many half-truths and fallacies and have based their religion on them.for the unsuspecting and the ignorant ones,it is very hard to untangle the webs the watchtower has spun.

i would stop short anyways,as i earlier mentioned that a thread was opened before this where i made some contributions:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-4050.288.html

for the die-hard JWs,it may be of interest for them to look at the site below and examine it.many accounts from ex-JWs are given.hope they do not hesitate to do that under any religious pretext which aims to imprison their thoughts and thinking:

http://www.sixscreensofthewatchtower.com/

@Lagoshia.
Thanks for d info. However, it's obvious that you have wrong view of Jw. Remember u are a muslim, and I am pretty sure u know little or nothing about d scriptures, hence, this topic is not one of those topics u could have a meaningful contribution.
As for d website u posted, we are used to it, there are millions of them, google can help you out to fetch them, just be very careful of such money making websites as most of them are designed by scammers who wants to feed haters like u with info ur biased mind wants to hear and not for free, they would definitely expect u to donate. Open d site u posted yourself and confirm, they will ask u to donate money. The site claims to disclose some bad things about watchtower, do they really need your donation to do that? Moreover, point out any bible truth they have thought you in d website. They are just helping u to miss d point.

Nonetheless, if at all JW is that bad, no matter what, islam would not b the next option, I don't know where u stay, but I have been in North for a while now, and have experienced a lot of u people's activities when it comes to killing, raping, stealing and destroying innocent people's lifes and properties in d name of religion, I think u should spend more time sCrutinizing your religion rather than critizing one. Have u ever heard about JW killing people, stealing or destroying people's property? Be sincere with yourself. No, rather we look for ways to help people.

Check out all watchtowers publications, good morales is being taught, principles of how to live a healthier live and maintain a good relationship with your neighbour and God is being taught. And above all, your attention is directed to God as d only solution provider to human problem, and He is going to accomplish this when our Lord'd prayer is fully answered; Our Father, who at in heaven, hallowed be Thy name, Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth, as it is done in heaven,

Everyone, I think, this is where I shall be saying bye to u guyz. Anyone that really wants to learn about JW and God's purposes with an open mind can contact me on the contacts I earlier posted. Thank u all.

Anu Yakubu:

@Lagoshia.
Thanks for d info. However, it's obvious that you have wrong view of Jw.

no i do not.

i do have unfavorable and also favorable views about them.since this is a religious forum where beliefs are propagated,i am obliged to make things clear by exposing what i see as unfavorable and not the truth.

Remember u are a muslim, and I am pretty sure u know little or nothing about d scriptures, hence, this topic is not one of those topics u could have a meaningful contribution.

i would challenge any JW on the bible and prove to you that i am more knowledgeable about the bible than you are.i open any bible and read.i am not fed patches of bible verses that are explained and interpreted and tailored to suit any doctrine from only one version.i open the bible not with any magazine or preconceived nition.i can point out many things to you only from the bible if you wish.i am not boasting but i am sure you cannot say the same about the Holy Quran.

besides,there are differences in your New World Translation (bible version of JWs) that i strongly disagree with.those i have already discussed in the other thread (link presented in my previous post).

i find it suprising that JWs boast of scripture knowledge and use big terms when infact they are aquainted with the awake and watchtower magazines than the bible.you are taught the bible from those magazine,thus the bible is your secondary source of knowledge and not the direct source for you.you are taught well from the bible in those magazines to cushion your beliefs and i dont doubt the effort you put.but talking about the bible as a whole,you are even told not to approach it personally because you lack the knowledge.

i have attended meetings in your kingdom hall more than 10 times.i know many things about the religion as i have associated myself with your brethren.but to be honest i see many things sugarcoated and concealed from you and i see mind control and serious programming and brainwashing that render the minds of your brethren very fixed.

As for d website u posted, we are used to it, there are millions of them, google can help you out to fetch them, just be very careful of such money making websites as most of them are designed by scammers who wants to feed haters like u with info your biased mind wants to hear and not for free, they would definitely expect u to donate. Open d site u posted yourself and confirm, they will ask u to donate money. The site claims to disclose some bad things about watchtower, do they really need your donation to do that? Moreover, point out any bible truth they have thought you in d website. They are just helping u to miss d point.

i am not a hater nor do i need anyone to teach me any bible "truth".there is really nothing mysterious in reading english if your bible is written in english.

the website accused your organization of doing likewise.your organization also collect donations.does the watchtower organization need money to spread the truth especially when it is "foot soldiers" like yourself that go door to door to preach and fish for converts?

i have gone through the website.now its your turn to.

just dont pick on a point to build a mountain.examine the message and dont pick on the messenger.

Nonetheless, if at all JW is that bad, no matter what, islam would not b the next option, I don't know where u stay, but I have been in North for a while now, and have experienced a lot of u people's activities when it comes to killing, Desecrating, stealing and destroying innocent people's lifes and properties in d name of religion, I think u should spend more time sCrutinizing your religion rather than critizing one. Have u ever heard about JW killing people, stealing or destroying people's property? Be sincere with yourself. No, rather we look for ways to help people.

i actually think from your above words that you are not a so-smart-JW.otherwise i expect better than those words from you.are you telling me that it is islam that make people steal or commit crime?i as a muslim know well that there is really no religion that ask its followers to do evil because religion is meant to bring goodness.

the problem with your attitude is the fact that you take people's actions as the command of their religion.what religion teaches is different from what people may do.

i can already see you have a preconceived notion that i am a northerner.

i am not telling you you are bad or your religion is.i am only telling you that JW is not the truth and far from it.it is only disguised with half-truths and fallacies that when you really think deep you see nothing but falsehood.your doctrines are really well packaged and marketed.as for islam being the next option,i dont expect a JW to see it as an option.you have to first open your "pad-lock" that cages you and make a sincere and unbiased research.i can help you on so many topics and we can discuss them here one by one.

Check out all watchtowers publications, good morales is being taught, principles of how to live a healthier live and maintain a good relationship with your neighbour and God is being taught. And above all, your attention is directed to God as d only solution provider to human problem, and He is going to accomplish this when our Lord'd prayer is fully answered; Our Father, who at in heaven, hallowed be Thy name, Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth, as it is done in heaven,

no one religion monopolizes universal truths and values.so dont boast of them.

Everyone, I think, this is where I shall be saying bye to u guyz. Anyone that really wants to learn about JW and God's purposes with an open mind can contact me on the contacts I earlier posted. Thank u all.

the issue is not about whether people want to learn.ofcourse if they do want to learn you can teach them easily what your religion is as it is.the issue is are you willing to also listen to others and question your programming you have undergone?

even a herbalist can teach others juju.but does it make it right?

"LagosShia", would l be correct to conclude that you are the same person as "ShiaMuslim"?
I observed that you post for both handles and l almost got confused!

I appreciate your contributions and that of Anu Yakubu.

Though the thread is basically an "espouse" on various Christian religious practices with more bias towards the practices and doctrines of JW's (since they seem to have more of doctrines that dont go along with main stream Christianity) but it does not preclude people of other faiths from making contributions and observations, in my own opinion.

I will PLEASE implore LagosShia and Anu Yakubu, to tone down the "personal jibes", its not about either of you, lets just discuss "doctrines and practices" without taking or getting PERSONAL! That way, we learn about each other without condemning ourselves!

Please guys.
Cheers.

Lastpage

@lastpage

thanks for showing maturity.

i also use "shiamuslim" when my ID is usually banned by spambot.it causes lots of difficulty in posting especially in the Islamic section.

U welcome Brother.

Just curious, do we have this dichotomy of "Shia" and "Sunni", in Nigeria (as we have in places like Iraq)?

What is the "significance" of being either of the two?

Cheers and happy Ramadan season.

Lastpage.

BTW: When the Ram finally hits the knife, do DHL some for your brothers here! I dey chop Ramadam like Sheeegee!

@shiaMuslim

Have u ever heard about JW killing people, stealing or destroying people's property? Be sincere with yourself. No, rather we look for ways to help people.

Please the question above requires Meditation. A good tree, the bible says will bring forth a Good FRUITS. Bros dont deviate from the truth.

One thing I must let you know is NO MATTER HOW YOU TWIST THE TRUTH, JW STANDS OUT, that is why Satan will look for every ways to asassinate the character of JW.

I can assure you that your mind have been poisoned by the reading of false internet stories about JW, i went to the site you talk about and quoted something "These ex Jehovah's Witnesses are exposing this critical information to help family members and friends recognize that the Watchtower Organization is nothing more than a business, using loyal followers as sales people."

This message above is a Falacy, please go back to the dictionary meaning of falacy.
None of our Elders in JW earn any Salary, the voluntary contributions they got from magazines is used for the society world wide work, and it used to finance printing of more coppies.
Dont allow some business organization to cajole your mind, please give this matter a prayer, you will see the truth, just think again, what could JW be gaining all their activities other than salvation (Mat 24:14)
Also think of what the pple that publish such falacies will be gaining by now, what positive impact would you learn from them?

The same set of pple made you guys to say that pastor CT Russell was a Massonist (cult), meanwhile he pointblankly said it in Zion watchtower in 1896 and 1904 that Fremasson, catholics, methodists and others had the intention of a christians but in real deffinition they are semi christians going by the character they exhibits, he also denied any relationship with the Masons.

Could the same person that condemned Masons on several pages of the Watchtower go ahead and be a member just because a Mason greeted him and he greeted them back?
CT Russell died in 1916, and 5 years later a Mason pyramid was erected in a burial ground close to his own, the next thing pple will say is to capture the picture of his grave together with the Mason pyramid and spead it as if that is an evidence to show he was a Mason.

Please I will encourage you to do more research before braging here.

Remember Satan could use anybody to spread his messages.

You ask us to discuss some topics one by one and you are so sure you will win the battle.
Could we pick HELL as a topic and define it to detail and see who is wrong ?

@shiaMuslim
you must first understand that Hell is also used as Hades, sheol, and Grave if you considers like 4 different Bible translations. If that is taken

[b]Hell Emptied![/b]Revelation 20:13:14 states: "The sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Hades gave up those dead in them." Yes, the Bible hell will be emptied. As Jesus promised, "the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear [Jesus'] voice and come out." (John 5:28, 29) Although no longer presently existing in any form, millions of dead ones who are in Jehovah God's memory will be resurrected, or brought back to life, in a restored earthly paradise.—Luke 23:43; Acts 24:15.

The Revelation scripture alone help us to understand that DEAD bodies in the hell was emptied into the lake of fire.

Second

What Really Is Hell?
WHATEVER image the word "hell" brings to your mind, hell is generally thought of as a place of punishment for sin. Concerning sin and its effect, the Bible says: "Through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned." (Romans 5:12) The Scriptures also state: "The wages sin pays is death." (Romans 6:23) Since the punishment for sin is death, the fundamental question in determining the true nature of hell is: What happens to us when we die?
Does life of some kind, in some form, continue after death? What is hell, and what kind of people go there? Is there any hope for those in hell? The Bible gives truthful and satisfying answers to these questions.
Life After Death?
Does something inside us, like a soul or a spirit, survive the death of the body? Consider how the first man, Adam, came to have life. The Bible states: "Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life." (Genesis 2:7) Though breathing sustained his life, putting "the breath of life" into his nostrils involved much more than simply blowing air into his lungs. It meant that God put into Adam's lifeless body the spark of life—"the force of life," which is active in all earthly creatures. (Genesis 6:17; 7:22) The Bible refers to this animating force as "spirit." (James 2:26) That spirit can be compared to the electric current that activates a machine or an appliance and enables it to perform its function. Just as the current never takes on the features of the equipment it activates, the life-force does not take on any of the characteristics of the creatures it animates. It has no personality and no thinking ability.
What happens to the spirit when a person dies? Psalm 146:4 says: "His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish." When a person dies, his impersonal spirit does not go on existing in another realm as a spirit creature. It "returns to the true God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7) This means that any hope of future life for that person now rests entirely with God.
The ancient Greek philosophers Socrates and Plato held that a soul inside a person survives death and never dies. What does the Bible teach about the soul? Adam "came to be a living soul," says Genesis 2:7. He did not receive a soul; he was a soul—a whole person. The Scriptures speak of a soul's doing work, craving food, being kidnapped, experiencing sleeplessness, and so forth. (Leviticus 23:30; Deuteronomy 12:20; 24:7; Psalm 119:28) Yes, man himself is a soul. When a person dies, that soul dies.—Ezekiel 18:4.
What, then, is the condition of the dead? When pronouncing sentence upon Adam, Jehovah stated: "Dust you are and to dust you will return." (Genesis 3:19) Where was Adam before God formed him from the dust of the ground and gave him life? Why, he simply did not exist! When he died, Adam returned to that state of complete absence of life. The condition of the dead is made clear at Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10, where we read: "The dead know nothing . . . In the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom." (New International Version) Scripturally, death is a state of nonexistence. The dead have no awareness, no feelings, no thoughts.

@shiaMuslim

Unending Torment or Common Grave?
Since the dead have no conscious existence, hell cannot be a fiery place of torment where the wicked suffer after death. What, then, is hell? Examining what happened to Jesus after he died helps to answer that question. The Bible writer Luke recounts: "Neither was [Jesus] forsaken in Hades [hell, King James Version] nor did his flesh see corruption."* (Acts 2:31) Where was the hell to which even Jesus went? The apostle Paul wrote: "I handed on to you . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; and that he was buried, yes, that he has been raised up the third day according to the Scriptures." (1 Corinthians 15:3, 4) So Jesus was in hell, the grave, but he was not abandoned there, for he was raised up, or resurrected.

Job prayed for protection in hell
Consider also the case of the righteous man Job, who suffered much. Wishing to escape his plight, he pleaded: "Who will grant me this, that thou mayest protect me in hell [Sheol], and hide me till thy wrath pass?"# (Job 14:13, Douay Version) How unreasonable to think that Job desired to go to a fiery-hot place for protection! To Job, "hell" was simply the grave, where his suffering would end. The Bible hell, then, is the common grave of mankind where good people as well as bad ones go.
Hellfire—All-Consuming?
Could it be that the fire of hell is symbolic of all-consuming, or thorough, destruction? Separating fire from Hades, or hell, the Scriptures say: "Death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire." "The lake" mentioned here is symbolic, since death and hell (Hades) that are thrown into it cannot literally be burned. "This [lake of fire] means the second death"—death from which there is no hope of coming back to life.—Revelation 20:14.

Fiery Gehenna—a symbol of eternal destruction
The lake of fire has a meaning similar to that of "the fiery Gehenna [hell fire, King James Version]" that Jesus spoke of. (Matthew 5:22; Mark 9:47, 48) Gehenna occurs 12 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures, and it refers to the valley of Hinnom, outside the walls of Jerusalem. When Jesus was on earth, this valley was used as a garbage dump, "where the dead bodies of criminals, and the carcasses of animals, and every other kind of filth was cast." (Smith's Dictionary of the Bible) The fires were kept burning by adding sulfur to burn up the refuse. Jesus used that valley as a proper symbol of everlasting destruction.
As does Gehenna, the lake of fire symbolizes eternal destruction. Death and Hades are "hurled into" it in that they will be done away with when mankind is freed from sin and the condemnation of death. Willful, unrepentant sinners will also have their "portion" in that lake. (Revelation 21: They too will be annihilated forever. On the other hand, those in God's memory who are in hell—the common grave of mankind—have a marvelous future.

lastpage:

U welcome Brother.

Just curious, do we have this dichotomy of "Shia" and "Sunni", in Nigeria (as we have in places like Iraq)?

What is the "significance" of being either of the two?

Cheers and happy Ramadan season.

Lastpage.

BTW: When the Ram finally hits the knife, do DHL some for your brothers here! I dey chop Ramadam like Sheeegee!

there are sunni and shia nigerians.

there are many threads in the islamic section on shia-sunni differences.

@ ibukun obi 1st reply

please try and be realistic and keep your replies short and straight to the point.i am not asking you to preach.

you are asking if Jehovah's witnesses steal or destroy people's property.you're implicitly angelizing your people.no religion asks its adherent to do such things.you're also implying that muslims steal and destroy people's property.and you have lied.does islam permit stealing and destroying people's property?the answer as you'd see from the below Quranic verses is no."by their fruits you shall know them",indeed that is correct.if you examine world wide statistic on crime,armed-robbery,illegitimate births,adultery,gambling,alcoholism,HIV infections etc,you see that muslim countries have the lowest rates in the world.it was only in 1996 that saudi arabia reported its first and only case of armed robbery.if anyone has to boast about discipline and good conduct,the muslims and the religion of Islam has everything to be proud of. we do not however say that all muslims are angels and we are not pretenders.we deal with the problems if they are found.if muslims misbehave,that does not mean it is islam that instructs them.you have also pulled a big joke by assuming that jehovah's witnesses are angels roaming the earth.among your people are paedophiles and grave sinners.if you go through the link i posted earlier which you are speaking against,there are JWs who abuse children and the governing body in your kingdom halls do not report to the police and they cover up to avoid disgrace.

as for collecting money,the money all end up in the purse of the organization in brooklyn,USA.it does not necessarily go into the pockets of the elders in nigeria or elsewhere.but it surely must go to the watchtower world governing body in the USA.true or false?

Holy Quran 5:38-39

“As for the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off the hand of either of them in requital for what they have wrought, as a deterrent ordained by God: for God is almighty, wise(5:38). But as for him who repents after having thus done wrong, and makes amends, behold, God will accept his repentance: verily, God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace.(5:39)

ibukun obi:

@shiaMuslim
you must first understand that Hell is also used as Hades, sheol, and Grave if you considers like 4 different Bible translations. If that is taken

[b]Hell Emptied![/b]Revelation 20:13:14 states: "The sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Hades gave up those dead in them." Yes, the Bible hell will be emptied. As Jesus promised, "the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear [Jesus'] voice and come out." (John 5:28, 29) Although no longer presently existing in any form, millions of dead ones who are in Jehovah God's memory will be resurrected, or brought back to life, in a restored earthly paradise.—Luke 23:43; Acts 24:15.

The Revelation scripture alone help us to understand that DEAD bodies in the hell was emptied into the lake of fire.

Do you deny that people would be punished after death and resurrection?
Yes,that is exactly what you are saying and what you believe.you believe others “will not resurrect”.

But in islam perfect justice means everyone must be held accountable for their deeds both the good and the bad.both those who will enter paradise and those you believe “will not be resurrected”,die.if every human being (good and bad) dies,then if death is a punishment then,all humans have faced that.

As you also stated,the dead is not conscious (at least physically),so how can everlasting death be a punishment since it takes consciousness away from the human body?

you used a thousand word to deny any fiery torment (known normally as hell fire) after death to only contradict yourself in one statement:

“The Revelation scripture alone help us to understand that DEAD bodies in the hell was emptied into the lake of fire”.

My question is,do you reject or deny the book of Revelations?

Whatever you call it “hell fire” or whatever name,there is a place bad people are believed to go to after death and resurrect to suffer punishment in a very hot environment.

You are basically playing with words and that is exactly what the watchtower has done to make it look like there is no “hell fire”.the fact remains that while you explained that hell can refer to other unfavorable places such as the grave,hell can also refer to the “lake of fire” you spoke of as mentioned in revelation.if you think you do not want to refer to that lake of fire as hell,then it does not negate the reality of a place of fiery torment where people would be punished regardless of whatever name you call it.also,if I do refer to it as “hell” it does not mean I am negating the realities of a place such as the grave where every human will eventually be placed.so why deny that?

Second

What Really Is Hell?
WHATEVER image the word "hell" brings to your mind, hell is generally thought of as a place of punishment for sin. Concerning sin and its effect, the Bible says: "Through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned." (Romans 5:12) The Scriptures also state: "The wages sin pays is death." (Romans 6:23) Since the punishment for sin is death, the fundamental question in determining the true nature of hell is: What happens to us when we die?
Does life of some kind, in some form, continue after death? What is hell, and what kind of people go there? Is there any hope for those in hell? The Bible gives truthful and satisfying answers to these questions.
Life After Death?
Does something inside us, like a soul or a spirit, survive the death of the body? Consider how the first man, Adam, came to have life. The Bible states: "Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life." (Genesis 2:7) Though breathing sustained his life, putting "the breath of life" into his nostrils involved much more than simply blowing air into his lungs. It meant that God put into Adam's lifeless body the spark of life—"the force of life," which is active in all earthly creatures. (Genesis 6:17; 7:22) The Bible refers to this animating force as "spirit." (James 2:26) That spirit can be compared to the electric current that activates a machine or an appliance and enables it to perform its function. Just as the current never takes on the features of the equipment it activates, the life-force does not take on any of the characteristics of the creatures it animates. It has no personality and no thinking ability.
What happens to the spirit when a person dies? Psalm 146:4 says: "His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish." When a person dies, his impersonal spirit does not go on existing in another realm as a spirit creature. It "returns to the true God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7) This means that any hope of future life for that person now rests entirely with God.
The ancient Greek philosophers Socrates and Plato held that a soul inside a person survives death and never dies. What does the Bible teach about the soul? Adam "came to be a living soul," says Genesis 2:7. He did not receive a soul; he was a soul—a whole person. The Scriptures speak of a soul's doing work, craving food, being kidnapped, experiencing sleeplessness, and so forth. (Leviticus 23:30; Deuteronomy 12:20; 24:7; Psalm 119:28) Yes, man himself is a soul. When a person dies, that soul dies.—Ezekiel 18:4.
What, then, is the condition of the dead? When pronouncing sentence upon Adam, Jehovah stated: "Dust you are and to dust you will return." (Genesis 3:19) Where was Adam before God formed him from the dust of the ground and gave him life? Why, he simply did not exist! When he died, Adam returned to that state of complete absence of life. The condition of the dead is made clear at Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10, where we read: "The dead know nothing . . . In the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom." (New International Version) Scripturally, death is a state of nonexistence. The dead have no awareness, no feelings, no thoughts.

What you are using here is circular reasoning.again Jehovah’s witnesses do not believe in the soul as a distinct part of human existence that can continue to exist separately on its own while the body rottens.simply because you are taught not to believe that anything as the soul exist separately,you have come to the conclusion that once the human being is dead,he cannot face hell fire punishment because his body goes to dust and nothing remains to be punished.punishment in the fire involves both body and soul.so denying that there is soul,does not make your case that there would be no need for punishing a dead body because that dead body would be brought back to life by the Maker.

What you have done is to jump or skip a step and compress your thoughts and format it the way you envisage it or imagine it to happen after death.for reward or punishment to take place and for God Almighty to administer His justice unto man,resurrection must first take place where all dead (both bad and good) would be called to account.you believe as stated in the bible that every man shall be held accountable for his deeds.that is in the bible.you cannot hold a dead man accountable when he does not know what is going on.that is no administeration of justice.if death is punishment bad people face,then good people who will make to paradise,must not die!reward of good and punishment for the wicked is only administered after the resurrection.the point is,man would be punished with both his body and soul.the soul would be restored to the body and the dead would come back to life and face his judgement from God.

The “lake of fire” is no cold place where man would enjoy. It will burn you, don’t you agree? so if people refer to it as “hell fire” in English, then what is wrong in the terminology? you can claim that biblically you should refer to it as the “lake of fire” or “gehenna”, than “hell fire”, but they still refer to the same reality. don’t they? In Islam, we don’t call it “hell fire”, the Quran calls it the “fire of Jehannam”. but we do understand that it refers to the same thing people in English call “hell fire”.

Luke 12:5
(New world translation)
But I will indicate to YOU whom to fear: Fear him who after killing has authority to throw into Ge•hen´na.

As for denying the existence of the soul as something fashioned and created by God as an entity ensuring life within the body and cooperated with the body of flesh to make man living, the bible is clear on that. The soul is connected to the body. Death=departure of the soul from the body. When man dies, the soul is no longer in his body. The “soul” is not just a flow of electric current that ceases once the body is dead and thus disappears. It is not just a force in the body or energy that ensures action and stops when you kill the body and it can no longer moves. The soul is a part in man like the body and other parts that make up man. While something like the heart and the brain are physical, the soul is not physical and cannot be touched or felt. The heart can decompose, but spirit does not. It can only be destroyed in God wills so. In the bible that God is described as spirit and you cannot see a spirit (John 4:24).if you deny the soul and consider it a force that can be extinguished, can you say the same about God Himself who is also said to be a spirit in the bible? Can He also cease to exist? This is what the New Testament says about the soul which you deny as something separate:

Matthew 10:28

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

In the above there are two types of deaths described. One is the killing of the body which can be understood as physical death we all undergo. The other is spiritual death, when the soul is/can be destroyed by God. The verse clear demonstrates that when man undergoes physical death, only the body is dead and not also the soul.
I also want you to take note that when you are preaching to me, you do not use Quranic verses to quote since the Quran is my own book of divine authority. It is actually ridiculous that you’re using the bible to convince a Muslim. On the other hand I use the bible (infact the new world translation of JWs) to convince you.

ibukun obi:

@shiaMuslim

Unending Torment or Common Grave?
Since the dead have no conscious existence, hell cannot be a fiery place of torment where the wicked suffer after death. What, then, is hell? Examining what happened to Jesus after he died helps to answer that question. The Bible writer Luke recounts: "Neither was [Jesus] forsaken in Hades [hell, King James Version] nor did his flesh see corruption."* (Acts 2:31) Where was the hell to which even Jesus went? The apostle Paul wrote: "I handed on to you . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; and that he was buried, yes, that he has been raised up the third day according to the Scriptures." (1 Corinthians 15:3, 4) So Jesus was in hell, the grave, but he was not abandoned there, for he was raised up, or resurrected.

You’re again assuming that it is the dead that go into the fire while forgetting that resurrection will take place and “everyone shall be held accountable for his deeds”. Your assumption is based on the fact that you believe death is punishment in itself and the wicked will not be resurrected. The earth would be inherited by resurrected JWs while the rest of mankind remains dead for eternity.

If I use the same logic, I can also tell you that both good and bad suffer death. JWs too die! I can also tell you based on your own logic that since the dead is not conscious to suffer hell, the dead is also not conscious to suffer death or non-existence if they are not resurrected.so that is also no punishment. You totally skip the possibility of resurrection, judgment and then punishment to the resurrected wicked people.

Mathew 12:36
I tell YOU that every unprofitable saying that men speak, they will render an account concerning it on Judgment Day;

Job prayed for protection in hell
Consider also the case of the righteous man Job, who suffered much. Wishing to escape his plight, he pleaded: "Who will grant me this, that thou mayest protect me in hell [Sheol], and hide me till thy wrath pass?"# (Job 14:13, Douay Version) How unreasonable to think that Job desired to go to a fiery-hot place for protection! To Job, "hell" was simply the grave, where his suffering would end. The Bible hell, then, is the common grave of mankind where good people as well as bad ones go.

You have never heard of “figure of speech”,have you? If Job is referring to the grave as hell,it does not negate the existence of a place of fiery torment where people would be burned.you said it is described in the book of revelations as the “lake of fire”.didnt you?

Hellfire—All-Consuming?
Could it be that the fire of hell is symbolic of all-consuming, or thorough, destruction? Separating fire from Hades, or hell, the Scriptures say: "Death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire." "The lake" mentioned here is symbolic, since death and hell (Hades) that are thrown into it cannot literally be burned. "This [lake of fire] means the second death"—death from which there is no hope of coming back to life.—Revelation 20:14.

For you to take “lake of fire” as symbolic you must also be ready to consider everywhere “gehenna” appears also in the OT as symbolic which is impossible to admit for any sane mind.
Also you have to make up your mind: would non-JWs be resurrected or not? if they would not be resurrected then how would they suffer a “second death”?

While the act of “throwing death into the lake of fire” can be figurative, it does not say that the lake itself is symbolic. Death ends when the wicked is punished in the lake of fire as the final punishment is given out and everyone resurrected. Thereafter there is no one who would die.

Fiery Gehenna—a symbol of eternal destruction
The lake of fire has a meaning similar to that of "the fiery Gehenna [hell fire, King James Version]" that Jesus spoke of. (Matthew 5:22; Mark 9:47, 48) Gehenna occurs 12 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures, and it refers to the valley of Hinnom, outside the walls of Jerusalem. When Jesus was on earth, this valley was used as a garbage dump, "where the dead bodies of criminals, and the carcasses of animals, and every other kind of filth was cast." (Smith's Dictionary of the Bible) The fires were kept burning by adding sulfur to burn up the refuse. Jesus used that valley as a proper symbol of everlasting destruction.
As does Gehenna, the lake of fire symbolizes eternal destruction. Death and Hades are "hurled into" it in that they will be done away with when mankind is freed from sin and the condemnation of death. Willful, unrepentant sinners will also have their "portion" in that lake. (Revelation 21: They too will be annihilated forever. On the other hand, those in God's memory who are in hell—the common grave of mankind—have a marvelous future.

You have rightly stated above that it is death that would be done with in the lake of fire when mankind would do away with sin and death. The wicked will also suffer therein. Now you have assumed that they suffer there by suffering everlasting death and not punishment.

Even in that sense, death is abstract and can be done away with abstractly. But how does a fiery place annihilate someone if that place is symbolic and not literal? And why is it described as “fiery” if it is not physical and cannot burn them?

If the grave and death is described in one sense as “hell” and “gehenna” or the” lake of fire” is described in another sense,then the difference is clearly made.

Mathew 5:22:
However, I say to YOU that everyone who continues wrathful with his brother will be accountable to the court of justice; but whoever addresses his brother with an unspeakable word of contempt will be accountable to the Supreme Court; whereas whoever says, ‘You despicable fool!’ will be liable to the fiery Ge•hen´na.

According to Revelations while death would be thrown into the lake of fire which is figurative and acceptable, wicked men will suffer and be tormented. how can dead men who are described as unconscious in the word of our JW friends be tormented by everlasting death, when the person is unconscious? If the person is dead forever and unconscious then where the torment does comes from? He was actually denying the existence of hell fire because he assumed that only dead people who are unconscious (as he believes) go there and therefore since they also don’t believe in the soul,so dead people suffere nothing when they are “unconscious” and can feel nothing.now let me ask him based on the below verses,if hell fire is nonexistent then how come wicked are described as suffering in hell fire and being tormented?:

Revelation 20:10 says that ", the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."  The wicked are tormented forever.  Revelation 14:10 – 11 says that the devil and all the wicked ", shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever."

@lagosShia,

I think you have seen froom Rev 20 verse 13,14 that what you earliar know as as hell fire never exist in the Bible.
Either you believe or not, the scripture you read said THE DEAD AND THE HELL which in other bible translations means THE DEAD AND THE GRAVE will be hurled into the lake of fire.
Remember that Ecclesiates 9:5,10 tells you that the DEAD are conscious of nothing at all. Please what other interpretation do you want to give the first and the second death when everything means DEAD.

Please meet any jehovahs witnesses around you there, their work is to help you have the accurate knowledge of Gods word, if you are willing you may go to www.watchtower.org where you can get answers to your cheap questions.

Meanwhile:

The Bible is clear when it describes the condition of the dead. It simply states: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . Their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished . . . There is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol [mankind’s common grave], the place to which you are going.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10) True worshipers of God have long embraced this basic Bible truth. They have understood that the soul, rather than being immortal, can die and be destroyed. (Ezekiel 18:4) They have also known that spirits of the dead do not exist. (Psalm 146:4) In ancient times, Jehovah strictly commanded his people to separate themselves completely from any custom or ritual that was associated with the belief that the dead are conscious and are able to influence the living.—Deuteronomy 14:1; 18:9-13; Isaiah 8:19, 20.

Please horoscope your intelligent quotient.
JW members are all learners and teachers of the word, while others are all learners but just thir clergies are the teachers. This is not the case with Jesus and his disciples. Bros I dont need to tell you tha 2 plus 2 is equal to 4.

JW are not known to be participating in warfare one of reasons that made them object of persecution during Naziism and WW2.

@lagosShia
Please read:

GERTRUDE, a Pentecostal preacher, held firmly to her belief in a fiery hell. The very suggestion that there might not be any such place offended her sense of justice. She reasoned that without the fires of hell, all sorts of horrible crimes would go unpunished. Gertrude remained adamant in her position. As she put it, “I don’t think that I’d want to worship God if there were no hellfire for the wicked.”

Will bad people burn in hell, as many religions teach? If not, what punishment will they receive?

The First Act of Divine Punishment
According to the Bible, God created the first human pair perfect. (Genesis 1:27; Deuteronomy 32:4) He placed them in a paradise garden and gave them the opportunity to live forever. However, the first humans, Adam and Eve, had one restriction. God warned them: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.”—Genesis 2:16, 17.

Sadly, our first parents failed that simple test of loyalty and obedience. The Creator was obliged to sentence them to death. “In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”—Genesis 3:19.

Had Adam and Eve been in danger of burning in hell, would not God have warned them about such a punishment? The fact is that he mentioned nothing about suffering after death. How could they suffer? They did not have immortal souls that would survive after death. The Bible makes this very clear: “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.”—Ezekiel 18:4.*

As the Giver of life, our Creator knows all there is to know about life and death. He tells us in his Word that “the dead . . . are conscious of nothing at all.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5) That is why Adam and Eve could not suffer in a fiery hell after their death. They simply returned to the dust and ceased to exist. They were “conscious of nothing at all.”

Can We Suffer After Death?
The Bible says at Romans 5:12: “Through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men.” Really, then, is it reasonable to believe that people suffer in hellfire for their sins, when Adam, the one who brought death upon the entire human race, simply became dust after dying?—1 Corinthians 15:22.

We all come under the same law that Adam was under. “The wages sin pays is death.” Moreover, once a person dies, he is “acquitted from his sin.” (Romans 6:7, 23) If both good and bad people die and nobody experiences suffering after death, where is God’s justice?

“The dead . . . are conscious of nothing at all.”—Ecclesiastes 9:5

God’s Justice
God’s purpose for obedient mankind has not changed since he created the first human couple and directed them to have children and take care of the earth. (Genesis 1:28) This is clearly still his purpose, as he later declared: “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.”—Psalm 37:29.

Note that the righteous will live on this earth. They will have a life of perfect health and happiness. God’s original purpose to have the earth filled with a righteous race of people will indeed “have certain success.” This will occur when he replaces this present wicked system of things with a new world.—Isaiah 55:11; Daniel 2:44; Revelation 21:4.

Billions of people who have died in ignorance of God’s requirements will benefit from a resurrection and will receive instruction for life in God’s new world. (Isaiah 11:9; John 5:28, 29) On the other hand, anyone who refuses to conform to God’s laws will be punished with “the second death.” This is the death from which they will never awake.—Revelation 21:8; Jeremiah 51:57.

Clearly, as a God of love, Jehovah will not torture people in hellfire. (1 John 4: Nor will he tolerate wickedness indefinitely. Accordingly, Psalm 145:20 assures us that “Jehovah is guarding all those loving him, but all the wicked ones he will annihilate.” Is that not loving and just?

@ LagosShia & others

All world principal religions teach that a hell fire exist, a place where the dead will be tormented forever or for some time. My questions to those who believe in hell fire judgement are these most especially for those who read Bible and Qur'an: God created heaven and earth, and lastly create man, when did he create hellfire? Is it before he create man or after man creation?

PLEASE CAN SOMEONE ANSWER MY QUESTION.i am tired of story-telling and explaining your beliefs and telling me what you believe.simply use your god-given brain to answer me and stop the obvious self-denial and turning a blind eye to reasoning:

if Jehovah's witnesses you believe:

1.) dead people are unconscious and the soul dies and the dead feel nothing
2.) hell fire is not physical and only symbolic

HOW COME WICKED PEOPLE ARE DESCRIBED AS SUFFERING THEREIN AND TORMENTED IN THE NEW TESTAMENT:

Revelation 20:10 says that ", the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."  The wicked are tormented forever.  Revelation 14:10 – 11 says that the devil and all the wicked ", shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever." 



3.) if the punishment given for the wicked is everlasting death,then that everlasting death should also make them "unconscious" of any pain or suffering.

THE QUESTION REMAINS,HOW THEN CAN DEAD UNCONSCIOUS PEOPLE DOOMED TO EVERLASTING DEATH SUFFER AND BE TORMENTED IN A LAKE OF FIRE AS REVELATIONS TELLS US IF THAT LAKE IS NOT PHYSICAL AND ITS FIRE IS SYMBOLIC?

@lagosShia

Read please:

Tormented Day and Night Forever
Referring to the Devil as well as the wild beast and the false prophet, John now tells us: “And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” (Revelation 20:10b) What could this mean? As mentioned already, it is not logical to say that symbols, such as the wild beast and the false prophet, as well as death and Hades, could suffer torture in a literal way. Hence, we have no reason to believe that Satan will be suffering for all eternity. He is to be annihilated.
The Greek word used here for “torment,” ba•sa•ni′zo, means primarily “to test (metals) by the touchstone.” “To question by applying torture” is a second meaning. (The New Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) In the context, the use of this Greek word indicates that what happens to Satan will serve, for all eternity, as a touchstone on the issue of the rightness and righteousness of Jehovah’s rule. That issue of sovereign rulership will have been settled once and for all time. Never again will a challenge to Jehovah’s sovereignty need to be tested over an extended period of time in order to be proved wrong.—Compare Psalm 92:1, 15. Additionally, the related word ba•sa•ni•stes′, “tormentor,” is used in the Bible to mean “jailer.” (Matthew 18:34, Kingdom Interlinear) In harmony with this, Satan will be imprisoned in the lake of fire forever; he will never be released. Finally, in the Greek Septuagint, which was well known to John, the related word ba′sa•nos is used to refer to humiliation that leads to death. (Ezekiel 32:24, 30) This helps us to see that the punishment that Satan undergoes is a humiliating, everlasting death in the lake of fire and sulfur. His works die with him.—1 John 3:8.
Again, the demons are not mentioned in this verse. Will they be released with Satan at the end of the thousand years and then undergo the punishment of everlasting death along with him? The evidence answers yes. In the parable of the sheep and the goats, Jesus said that the goats would go off “into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.” (Matthew 25:41) The expression “everlasting fire” must refer to the lake of fire and sulfur where Satan is to be hurled. The Devil’s angels were cast out of heaven with him. Evidently, they went into the abyss with him at the beginning of the Thousand Year Reign. Consistently, then, they will also be destroyed with him in the lake of fire and sulfur.—Matthew 8:29.
In this way, the final detail of the prophecy recorded at Genesis 3:15 is fulfilled. When Satan is hurled into the lake of fire, he will become as dead as a snake the head of which has been ground under an iron heel. He and his demons will be gone forever. There is no further mention of them in the book of Revelation. Now, having prophetically disposed of these, Jehovah’s spirit draws attention to a matter of pressing interest to those who cherish an earthly hope: What will result to humankind from the heavenly reign of the “King of kings” and “those called and chosen and faithful with him”? (Revelation 17:14) To answer, John brings us back once again to the beginning of the Thousand Year Reign.
[Footnotes]
Other scriptures say that Jesus was in Hades while he was dead. (Acts 2:31) We should not conclude, however, that Hades and the abyss are always the same. While the wild beast and Satan go into the abyss, only humans are said to go to Hades, where they are asleep in death until their resurrection.—Job 14:13; Revelation 20:13.
The ax (Greek, pe′le•kus) was seemingly the traditional instrument of execution in Rome, although by John’s day the sword was more generally used. (Acts 12:2) Therefore, the Greek word here used, pe•pe•le•kis•me′non (“executed with the ax”), simply means “executed.”
Interestingly, Papias of Hierapolis, who is understood to have received some of his Bible knowledge from pupils of John, the writer of Revelation, is reported by fourth-century historian Eusebius to have believed in a literal Thousand Year Reign of Christ (although Eusebius strongly disagreed with him).—The History of the Church, Eusebius, III, 39.

Concerning Rev 14:10,11
Read this again:

Endurance for the Holy Ones
13 Now the third angel speaks. Listen! “And another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: ‘If anyone worships the wild beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of his wrath.’” (Revelation 14:9, 10a) At Revelation 13:16, 17, it was revealed that during the Lord’s day those who do not worship the image of the wild beast would suffer—even be killed. Now we learn that Jehovah has determined to bring to judgment those “having the mark, the name of the wild beast or the number of its name.” They will be forced to drink a bitter ‘cup of wrath’ of Jehovah’s anger. What will this mean for them? In 607 B.C.E., when Jehovah forced Jerusalem to drink “his cup of rage,” the city experienced “despoiling and breakdown, and hunger and sword” at the hands of the Babylonians. (Isaiah 51:17, 19) Similarly, when idolizers of earth’s political powers and their image, the United Nations, get to drink the cup of Jehovah’s wrath, the result will be a calamity for them. (Jeremiah 25:17, 32, 33) They will be utterly destroyed.
14 Even before that happens, however, those with the mark of the beast have to undergo the tormenting effects of Jehovah’s disapproval. Speaking of the worshipper of the wild beast and its image, the angel informs John: “And he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest, those who worship the wild beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”—Revelation 14:10b, 11.


15 Some have viewed the mention here of fire and sulfur (“fire and brimstone,” King James Version) as a proof of the existence of a hellfire. But a brief look at a similar prophecy shows the real import of these words in this context. Back in the days of Isaiah, Jehovah warned the nation of Edom that they would be punished because of their enmity toward Israel. He said: “Her torrents must be changed into pitch, and her dust into sulphur; and her land must become as burning pitch. By night or by day it will not be extinguished; to time indefinite its smoke will keep ascending. From generation to generation she will be parched; forever and ever no one will be passing across her.”—Isaiah 34:9, 10.
16 Was Edom hurled into some mythical hellfire to burn forever? Of course not. Rather, the nation completely disappeared from the world scene as if she had been totally consumed with fire and sulfur. The final result of the punishment was not everlasting torment but “emptiness . . . wasteness . . . nothing.” (Isaiah 34:11, 12) The smoke ‘ascending to time indefinite’ vividly illustrates this. When a house burns down, smoke keeps coming from the ashes for some time after the flames have died down, providing onlookers with evidence that there has been a destructive conflagration. Even today God’s people remember the lesson to be learned from the destruction of Edom. In this way ‘the smoke of her burning’ is still ascending in a symbolic way.
17 Those who have the mark of the wild beast will also be destroyed completely, as if by fire. As the prophecy later reveals, their dead bodies will be left unburied for animals and birds to eat. (Revelation 19:17, 18) So, clearly, they are not being literally tortured forever! How are they “tormented with fire and sulphur”? In that the proclamation of truth exposes them and warns them of God’s coming judgment. Therefore they vilify God’s people and, where possible, slyly persuade the political wild beast to persecute and even kill Jehovah’s Witnesses. As a climax, these opposers will be destroyed as with fire and brimstone. Then “the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever” in that God’s judgment of them will serve as a touchstone if ever again Jehovah’s rightful sovereignty is challenged. That issue will have been settled for all eternity.
18 Who deliver the tormenting message today? Remember, the symbolic locusts have authority to torment the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. (Revelation 9:5) Evidently, these ones under angelic direction are the tormentors. Such is the persistence of the symbolic locusts that “day and night they have no rest, those who worship the wild beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” And finally, after their destruction, the monumental evidence of that vindication of Jehovah’s sovereignty, “the smoke of their torment,” will ascend forever and ever. May the John class endure until that vindication is complete! As the angel concludes: “Here is where it means endurance for the holy ones, those who observe the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.”—Revelation 14:12.

@ the above

first,please only reply with copy/paste if necessary.all your posts are copy/paste.they are monotonous to read.it also portrays you as someone who cannot reason independently or someone programmed.

aside,as for the reply you gave,there is a glaring contradiction.i dont think you can ever answer my question.you will only end up going in circles.you believe dead people dont feel anything.you deny hell fire.but people who have already died and you believe do not feel anything are described in the bible as undergoing "torture" and being "tormented".how can that be "figurative"? even in the figurative sense,death is death!there is no sense in it being figurative because if they are dead and unconscious,we expect them to be described in a sense that portrays extinction/annhilation than suffering.if they cannot feel anything,they will not be described as "suffering".

LOL, that is all i have to say about your denial of hell fire.just pray you dont end up in it.

Young man I have carefully observe your comments within the last one week I met u on this thread.
It appears you have hardeened your mind against the truth.
What more do you expect me to say
Read your comments again:
ALL MY POSTS ARE COPY/PASTE-- If you dont know am a very busy person, I try as much to devote time to attend to issues like this, besides my scriptures says "do not lean upon your own understanding".It appears you dont appreciate learning together, you are just here to argue blindly
THEY ARE MONOTONOUS TO READ--what has monotony got to do with the fact am passing across. I gave u the explanation of the scriptures u quoted.
I AM PROGRAMMED--- I prefer to be programmed just as the NOAH'S family does and they eventually survived the deluge. I will rather be part of this organization that teaches and uphold moral standards than be part of these croocked and twisted religions that claimed to love their neighbour but still engages in war.
MY REPLIES ARE CONTRADICTING-- am I the one that wrote what was writen in Eccl.9:5,10 that the dead knows nothing and that the hell means grave if you compare other translations. or was I the one that says in Rev.20:13,14 that the hell which is grave and the Dead will be casted into the lake of fire. this explanation is simple enough, but your sturborness and your spirit of independence (the Bible has warned us to disassociate with people possessing such spirit).
YOU DONT THINK I CAN EVER ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS: During the time of Joshua, people like u gave him tough time and they went on worshiping other Gods despite what God did for them, he told them to continue doing what they know best, but as Joshua and his household they shall worship Jehovah.
So as for me I will keep seeking first Gods kingdom and righteousness.
You have made a decision like yours,
My Dad was a Muslim in the early thirties and fourties, he Joined Catholics in the early fifties, then when JW come to their street to preach, he use to STONE them and pursue them away.
Today he has been a baptized member of JW SINCE 1954, he is 81 years old, and he still go out with his Bible to preach
I will continue this discussion later