During a recent conversation between Wilgrea7 and Kayouzka, they both agreed that consciousness is complex and we don't know its nature. What I don't understand is what is difficult or puzzling about consciousness, maybe I understand consciousness differently from others or there is something I'm missing.
To me, consciousness means awareness so to be conscious means to be aware.
It doesn't mean :
~ Self awareness
~ Ability to think about what one is aware of.
~ Complex reasoning ability
It just simply means awareness.
Going by this definition, let's try a thought experiment.
Imagine you built a device that vibrates and blinks red light when it detects a sudden loud sound.
One day you went out for a walk in the wood, with your dog and the device with you, then suddenly there was a gun shot in the woods.
~ You heard the sound so you're aware of it.
~ You saw your dog barking suddenly and restless so you can safely also assume he is aware of the sound also.
~ You saw flock of birds flew from a tree near you and away apparently reacting to the sound, so they're aware of the sound also.
~ Your device starts vibrating and blinking red.
Now what do you think about the device? To me I say the device is also aware of the sound, yes it is conscious of the sound and yes you've just built artificial consciousness.
While your thought processes in response to the sound is more complex than that of your dog or the birds, and the device cannot think about the sound at all, to me the device has artificial consciousness because thinking is not a prerequisite for consciousness.
To me every living thing is conscious whether they can think or not I don't care, and yes I belief even a microbe is conscious.
Some people belief self awareness is a prerequisite for determining consciousness but self awareness is a product of thinking, for example an infant doesn't have self awareness yet because her brain is not matured yet but she is conscious, she is aware of sound, touch, sight, smell and taste but no self awareness.
Consciousness needs only two things to emerge
~ Something that sense eg ear, eye, nose etc (in man)
~ Something that interpret what was sensed eg brain.
Your device may have an antennae to sense and a board or unit that interprets (to interpret in this sense doesn't mean "to think".
So if it is so easy to build artificial consciousness, what is so puzzling about it. In fact it is easy for scientists in the field of robotics to build a robot that sees, hear or aware when touched, the problem is building intelligence, that is the real issue intelligence, it is easy to build artificial consciousness but difficult to build artificial intelligence because your device needs only to be aware or detect not to form complex interpretation, figure or think about what it is aware of, that is the domain of intelligence, consciousness is not intelligence, there can be consciousness without intelligence. Do you know when a person runs mad, absolutely nothing is wrong with their awareness? They are still aware of sound, smell, sight etc just like normal human but something is wrong with their intelligence thus insanity affects intelligence not awareness.
So I belief intelligence is puzzling but consciousness is not if we define consciousness simply has the ability to be aware, to detect.
So do you agree consciousness is simple not complex?

Atheists wants absolute freedom which is not possible as long as we have to deal with fellow humans who are also intelligent creatures.
So they're not talking about awareness per say rather what they meant by complexity in their own mind is the confusion that will set in when they're trying to deal with fellow humans without considering the standard for right and wrong. If they're to succumb to such standard then another question will arise which is who sets such standard? Of course no other person should do that apart from a SUPREME BEING (GOD) that's where they will reach a crossroad and conclude that consciousness is complex.

Ordinarily consciousness has to do with oneself and his environment which includes other forms of life around you, if it's just about lesser creatures (animals) our consciousness won't be difficult but when you have to deal with fellow humans having the same ability like you then there must be a guide and that's the key atheism lost by denying the existence of the SUPREME BEING ~ GOD

MaxInDHouse:
Atheists wants absolute freedom which is not possible as long as we have to deal with fellow humans who are also intelligent creatures.
So they're not talking about awareness per say rather what they meant by complexity in their own mind is the confusion that will set in when they're trying to deal with fellow humans without considering the standard for right and wrong. If they're to succumb to such standard then another question will arise which is who sets such standard? Of course no other person should do that apart from a SUPREME BEING (GOD) that's where they will reach a crossroad and conclude that consciousness is complex.

Ordinarily consciousness has to do with oneself and his environment which includes other forms of life around you, if it's just about lesser creatures (animals) our consciousness won't be difficult but when you have to deal with fellow humans having the same ability like you then there must be a guide and that's the key atheism lost by denying the existence of the SUPREME BEING ~ GOD

So do you agree that consciousness is a simple phenomenon?

justlove91:

So do you agree that consciousness is a simple phenomenon?

YES!
You just have to let go of some things as in makes sacrifices been aware that there can't be peace without consideration for other forms of life around you most especially your own specie!

MaxInDHouse:

YES!
You just have to let go of some things as in makes sacrifices been aware that there can't be peace without consideration for other forms of life around you most especially your own specie!

To make sure we're on the same page, what does consciousness mean to you? It seems to me you're talking of something else.

Hi there,

Unfortunately, I don't know enough about consciousness to give an authoritative answer, but I will try my best. I think there's a big difference between response to stimuli, and what we define as consciousness.

To me, consciousness isn't just about being aware of the environment, but being aware of the fact that you're aware. When we look at the brain, we have different parts of the brain that influence different things. Things like speech, sight, memory, facial and environmental recognition, and so on, are controlled by different parts of the brain.

If you encounter a dangerous situation on the street for example, the part of the brain responsible for flight and fight gets activated, and you either run, or go into attack mode. We understand that part.

But the part of the brain that says "I am Wilgrea7, and i am aware of the fact that I am aware of things", is still a big mystery. We do things everyday. But the part of us that says "I, as X individual, am aware of the things I'm doing, and aware of myself doing these things" is the part that gets people confused.

Using the analogy of the device that vibrates and blinks in the presence of sound. The device just responds to environmental stimuli. But the device isn't aware that it is responding to the stimuli. It isn't aware that it is a thing which can respond.

Animals are similar to humans, in that they've evolved to respond to different stimuli. When hungry, they go hunting. When tired, they rest. A lot of their actions, similar to ours, are biological. But as far as we can tell, most animals aren't aware of themselves doing these things. They just do them. They aren't aware of the fact that they are individual beings, which can be aware of themselves.

That's what makes it a mystery.

I hope it makes some sense to you, because it sure as hell doesn't to me

justlove91:

To make sure we're on the same page, what does consciousness mean to you? It seems to me you're talking of something else.

Consciousness mean the state of being aware as in conscious and the word conscious connotes alertness with one's mental faculties active.

So consciousness doesn't end in you knowing yourself alone without being aware of your surroundings which is the major factor of your wellbeing. If you're not aware of your habitat then your consciousness is not complete.

That's why you must know how to relate with your environment which includes other forms of life around you most especially your own specie who depends on the same condition to keep living. That's what will determine whether you will live longer or die earlier, become successful or retched, enjoy peace or always in trouble.

Do you now see the reason why i said true consciousness includes been aware of your habitat and other forms of life around you?

justlove91:
To me, consciousness means awareness so to be conscious means to be aware.
It doesn't mean :
~ Self awareness
~ Ability to think about what one is aware of.
~ Complex reasoning ability
It just simply means awareness.

I think the above makes simple sense.

Consciousness differs from intelligence or the ability for reason complex things.

Wilgrea7:
Hi there,

Unfortunately, I don't know enough about consciousness to give an authoritative answer, but I will try my best. I think there's a big difference between response to stimuli, and what we define as consciousness.

To me, consciousness isn't just about being aware of the environment, but being aware of the fact that you're aware. When we look at the brain, we have different parts of the brain that influence different things. Things like speech, sight, memory, facial and environmental recognition, and so on, are controlled by different parts of the brain.

If you encounter a dangerous situation on the street for example, the part of the brain responsible for flight and fight gets activated, and you either run, or go into attack mode. We understand that part.

But the part of the brain that says "I am Wilgrea7, and i am aware of the fact that I am aware of things", is still a big mystery. We do things everyday. But the part of us that says "I, as X individual, am aware of the things I'm doing, and aware of myself doing these things" is the part that gets people confused.

Using the analogy of the device that vibrates and blinks in the presence of sound. The device just responds to environmental stimuli. But the device isn't aware that it is responding to the stimuli. It isn't aware that it is a thing which can respond.

Animals are similar to humans, in that they've evolved to respond to different stimuli. When hungry, they go hunting. When tired, they rest. A lot of their actions, similar to ours, are biological. But as far as we can tell, most animals aren't aware of themselves doing these things. They just do them. They aren't aware of the fact that they are individual beings, which can be aware of themselves.

That's what makes it a mystery.

I hope it makes some sense to you, because it sure as hell doesn't to me

By defining consciousness as the ability to be aware that you're aware, I think you've already added another layer to what consciousness means which is simply to be aware. Human brain is complex and thus manifests a complex level of awareness just like humans can have emotion about their emotion eg we can be feel ashamed because we feel jealous.
I believe our ability as humans to say I'm X and I'm aware of...... as to do mainly with memory and reasoning than awareness. Imagine an individual whose memory is deleted every second and whose reasoning is impaired, will he be able to say I'm X?
If we go with your definition that consciousness is the ability to be aware that you're aware then an insane or infant is not a conscious being.
In my analogy of the device, the device doesn't have to be aware that it is aware of a stimuli. The second layer of awareness is a product of reasoning/thinking.

Kobojunkie:
I think the above makes simple sense.

Consciousness differs from intelligence and the ability for reasoning complex things.

Exactly, there is a difference between being aware of something and reasoning about the object of awareness.

MaxInDHouse:


Consciousness mean the state of being aware as in conscious and the word conscious connotes alertness with one's mental faculties active.

So consciousness doesn't end in you knowing yourself alone without being aware of your surroundings which is the major factor of your wellbeing. If you're not aware of your habitat then your consciousness is not complete.

That's why you must know how to relate with your environment which includes other forms of life around you most especially your own specie who depends on the same condition to keep living. That's what will determine whether you will live longer or die earlier, become successful or retched, enjoy peace or always in trouble.

Do you now see the reason why i said true consciousness includes been aware of your habitat and other forms of life around you?

Being conscious of our environment is different from relating to the environment, this topic is about the formal.

justlove91:

Being conscious of our environment is different from relating to the environment, this topic is about the formal.

Consciousness without relativity means what?

Wilgrea7:
Hi there,

Unfortunately, I don't know enough about consciousness to give an authoritative answer, but I will try my best. I think there's a big difference between response to stimuli, and what we define as consciousness.

To me, consciousness isn't just about being aware of the environment, but being aware of the fact that you're aware. When we look at the brain, we have different parts of the brain that influence different things. Things like speech, sight, memory, facial and environmental recognition, and so on, are controlled by different parts of the brain.

If you encounter a dangerous situation on the street for example, the part of the brain responsible for flight and fight gets activated, and you either run, or go into attack mode. We understand that part.

But the part of the brain that says "I am Wilgrea7, and i am aware of the fact that I am aware of things", is still a big mystery. We do things everyday. But the part of us that says "I, as X individual, am aware of the things I'm doing, and aware of myself doing these things" is the part that gets people confused.

Using the analogy of the device that vibrates and blinks in the presence of sound. The device just responds to environmental stimuli. But the device isn't aware that it is responding to the stimuli. It isn't aware that it is a thing which can respond.

Animals are similar to humans, in that they've evolved to respond to different stimuli. When hungry, they go hunting. When tired, they rest. A lot of their actions, similar to ours, are biological. But as far as we can tell, most animals aren't aware of themselves doing these things. They just do them. They aren't aware of the fact that they are individual beings, which can be aware of themselves.

That's what makes it a mystery.

I hope it makes some sense to you, because it sure as hell doesn't to me

With your recent posts, it looks like you're now supporting Intelligent Design theory.

Though I made a comment on one of your thread but bot removed it.

justlove91:

By defining consciousness as the ability to be aware that you're aware, I think you've already added another layer to what consciousness means which is simply to be aware.

I get that, but the issue with saying consciousness is just being aware, is that it doesn't seem to stop there. The fact that we are aware of ourselves as individual people, is part of what separates the level of awareness we have, to that which other animals have

Human brain is complex and thus manifests a complex level of awareness just like humans can have emotion about their emotion eg we can be feel ashamed because we feel jealous.

Brains in general are complex. Including animal brains. But like i said earlier, as complex as it is, we seem to have been able to identify what part of the brain does what function. The consciousness part is what we've not been able to pinpoint.

I believe our ability as humans to say I'm X and I'm aware of...... as to do mainly with memory and reasoning than awareness. Imagine an individual whose memory is deleted every second and whose reasoning is impaired, will he be able to say I'm X?

Someone who loses their memory won't be able to recall details of themselves. They can't say “I'm X" in respect to their personal attributes like their name, age, or other details of their life. But they'll still be able to say that they're individuals, who are aware of the fact that they are something.

The details of that something may be lost to them, but the knowledge of them being something.. anything at all.. is what I'm talking about

If we go with your definition that consciousness is the ability to be aware that you're aware then an insane or infant is not a conscious being.

Ah.. i think i get your point now. If you go by that standard, then yes.. an insane person or an infant wouldn't classify as being conscious.. but simply just aware.

That is truly an interesting concept.. i never thought of babies or mentally impaired people in my analogy of consciousness. Thank you for that. It is something I'll have to ponder on further before i say more about it

In my analogy of the device, the device doesn't have to be aware that it is aware of a stimuli. The second layer of awareness is a product of reasoning/thinking.

This is another interesting idea. That means thinking and consciousness could be interrelated. And i think there's a lot of truth to that statement.

Like i said earlier, I don't have nearly enough information on the subject.. but you've certainly given me things to think about. So thank you for that.

I'll try to delve deeper into the subject, and hopefully report back if i learn something new

justlove91:
During a recent conversation between Wilgrea7 and Kayouzka, they both agreed that consciousness is complex and we don't know its nature. What I don't understand is what is difficult or puzzling about consciousness, maybe I understand consciousness differently from others or there is something I'm missing.
To me, consciousness means awareness so to be conscious means to be aware.
It doesn't mean :
~ Self awareness
~ Ability to think about what one is aware of.
~ Complex reasoning ability
It just simply means awareness.
Going by this definition, let's try a thought experiment.
Imagine you built a device that vibrates and blinks red light when it detects a sudden loud sound.
One day you went out for a walk in the wood, with your dog and the device with you, then suddenly there was a gun shot in the woods.
~ You heard the sound so you're aware of it.
~ You saw your dog barking suddenly and restless so you can safely also assume he is aware of the sound also.
~ You saw flock of birds flew from a tree near you and away apparently reacting to the sound, so they're aware of the sound also.
~ Your device starts vibrating and blinking red.
Now what do you think about the device? To me I say the device is also aware of the sound, yes it is conscious of the sound and yes you've just built artificial consciousness.
While your thought processes in response to the sound is more complex than that of your dog or the birds, and the device cannot think about the sound at all, to me the device has artificial consciousness because thinking is not a prerequisite for consciousness.
To me every living thing is conscious whether they can think or not I don't care, and yes I belief even a microbe is conscious.
Some people belief self awareness is a prerequisite for determining consciousness but self awareness is a product of thinking, for example an infant doesn't have self awareness yet because her brain is not matured yet but she is conscious, she is aware of sound, touch, sight, smell and taste but no self awareness.
Consciousness needs only two things to emerge
~ Something that sense eg ear, eye, nose etc (in man)
~ Something that interpret what was sensed eg brain.
Your device may have an antennae to sense and a board or unit that interprets (to interpret in this sense doesn't mean "to think".
So if it is so easy to build artificial consciousness, what is so puzzling about it. In fact it is easy for scientists in the field of robotics to build a robot that sees, hear or aware when touched, the problem is building intelligence, that is the real issue intelligence, it is easy to build artificial consciousness but difficult to build artificial intelligence because your device needs only to be aware or detect not to form complex interpretation, figure or think about what it is aware of, that is the domain of intelligence, consciousness is not intelligence, there can be consciousness without intelligence. Do you know when a person runs mad, absolutely nothing is wrong with their awareness? They are still aware of sound, smell, sight etc just like normal human but something is wrong with their intelligence thus insanity affects intelligence not awareness.
So I belief intelligence is puzzling but consciousness is not if we define consciousness simply has the ability to be aware, to detect.
So do you agree consciousness is simple not complex?

Everything is both complex and simple only depends on how you look at it.

Intelligence is a sprout from consciousness,
You see intelligence is a faculty of the mind. We have;
1. Instinct
2. Intellect
3. Intuition

These are all levels of consciousness,
What you are referring to is instinct, common with animals and helps them survive there environments.

When we go done to intellect we refer to that which knows that it knows. "I am" that which seeks to know itself, it can look back upon itself and judge it instinct before acting, it is the reason for all the sadness in the world. Note the intellect (mind) is an illusion. Just like instinct it is a very useful aperture through which the universal consciousness can know the world from a finite point what makes it different from instinct is that it is self aware and act on it self interest through rational thinking that's it judges it next step using past experience, it is never in the present but always in the future or past and therefore it gets cut off from reality (the eternal now).

The intuition is above thought process, it is the ability to make judgements without the charter in the skull, it like instinct but it goes way beyond the instinct, how? it is not a reaction but an insight, it is not thinking but an idea, so you see if I ask you a question you won't think but yet you get it, animals can't do that with instinct. It is relatively blissful than intellect. It is more like program, you see the intellect is also a program but it is programmed in such a way that it thinks it is in control. Whence it is not

Note all this are like aperture and apertures are limitations placed by infinity consciousness in other to know limitations. (The world)

A sango worshipper is a theist.

Emusan:


With your recent posts, it looks like you're now supporting Intelligent Design theory.

Though I made a comment on one of your thread but bot removed it.

Yeah... I did notice I received a mention from you, but I couldn't find the comment. Weird.

In regards to intelligent design theory, I wouldn't go as far as to say I support intelligent design. I'm just wondering why there is anything at all. Fields, dimensions, energy. Why certain constants have the value they do. Why they have any value at all. Why there would even be constants at all.

I'm not necessarily jumping to the conclusion that there is a god behind it. I don't think that's a conclusion that can be scientifically proven as of now. So best we can do, is logical deduction.

Whether these things were set by a God, or multiple gods, or whether these things are in a way, part of a God, manifestations of a God or if the term "God" is even the wrong term to use to describe it... whatever other explanation is behind them, I'm yet to find out.

Wilgrea7:


I get that, but the issue with saying consciousness is just being aware, is that it doesn't seem to stop there. The fact that we are aware of ourselves as individual people, is part of what separates the level of awareness we have, to that which other animals have



Brains in general are complex. Including animal brains. But like i said earlier, as complex as it is, we seem to have been able to identify what part of the brain does what function. The consciousness part is what we've not been able to pinpoint.



Someone who loses their memory won't be able to recall details of themselves. They can't say “I'm X" in respect to their personal attributes like their name, age, or other details of their life. But they'll still be able to say that they're individuals, who are aware of the fact that they are something.

The details of that something may be lost to them, but the knowledge of them being something.. anything at all.. is what I'm talking about



Ah.. i think i get your point now. If you go by that standard, then yes.. an insane person or an infant wouldn't classify as being conscious.. but simply just aware.

That is truly an interesting concept.. i never thought of babies or mentally impaired people in my analogy of consciousness. Thank you for that. It is something I'll have to ponder on further before i say more about it



This is another interesting idea. That means thinking and consciousness could be interrelated. And i think there's a lot of truth to that statement.

Like i said earlier, I don't have nearly enough information on the subject.. but you've certainly given me things to think about. So thank you for that.

I'll try to delve deeper into the subject, and hopefully report back if i learn something new

I believe thinking and memory add depth to consciousness. Try this thought experiment:
There are three persons
Mr A has only consciousness
Mr B has consciousness and memory
Mr C has consciousness, memory and can think.
Now put an Apple in front of the men, remove it after some minutes, put it again etc
Now what will be the perception of these three men?
When you put the Apple in front of Mr A will it not appear to him that the Apple has always been there since he doesn't have memory of its absence and when you remove the Apple will it not appear that there was never an Apple since there is no memory of its presence. Also, without having memory and ability to think will he be able to say I'm Mr. A who is aware of being aware of the presence and absence of an Apple?
If you think about this well, you will be able to see how memory and thinking complicate and add layer to consciousness. And why it is important to remove the effects of memory and thinking in other to see what consciousness really is.

Kayouzka:


Everything is both complex and simple only depends on how you look at it.

Intelligence is a sprout from consciousness,
You see intelligence is a faculty of the mind. We have;
1. Instinct
2. Intellect
3. Intuition

These are all levels of consciousness,
What you are referring to is instinct, common with animals and helps them survive there environments.

When we go done to intellect we refer to that which knows that it knows. "I am" that which seeks to know itself, it can look back upon itself and judge it instinct before acting, it is the reason for all the sadness in the world. Note the intellect (mind) is an illusion. Just like instinct it is a very useful aperture through which the universal consciousness can know the world from a finite point what makes it different from instinct is that it is self aware and act on it self interest through rational thinking that's it judges it next step using past experience, it is never in the present but always in the future or past and therefore it gets cut off from reality (the eternal now).

The intuition is above thought process, it is the ability to make judgements without the charter in the skull, it like instinct but it goes way beyond the instinct, how? it is not a reaction but an insight, it is not thinking but an idea, so you see if I ask you a question you won't think but yet you get it, animals can't do that with instinct. It is relatively blissful than intellect. It is more like program, you see the intellect is also a program but it is programmed in such a way that it thinks it is in control. Whence it is not

Note all this are like aperture and apertures are limitations placed by infinity consciousness in other to know limitations. (The world)

I like your write up on intellect, instinct intuition but instead of calling them levels of consciousness I believe they are in the domain of intelligence and thus levels of intelligence.
I believe there is a difference between consciousness and intelligence, and your write up is about intelligence

This should make front page but it wouldn't

justlove91:

I like your write up on intellect, instinct intuition but instead of calling them levels of consciousness I believe they are in the domain of intelligence and thus levels of intelligence.
I believe there is a difference between consciousness and intelligence, and your write up is about intelligence

Everything is in the domain of consciousness (knowing)
Consciousness is awareness, the brain is a filter it cannot take on all awareness, it level of awareness is how we call intelligence.