Researching The Human Genome

Venema says there is no way we can be traced back to a single couple. He says with the mapping of the human genome, it's clear that modern humans emerged from other primates as a large population — long before the Genesis time frame of a few thousand years ago. And given the genetic variation of people today, he says scientists can't get that population size below 10,000 people at any time in our evolutionary history.

To get down to just two ancestors, Venema says, "You would have to postulate that there's been this absolutely astronomical mutation rate that has produced all these new variants in an incredibly short period of time. Those types of mutation rates are just not possible. It would mutate us out of existence."

Venema is a senior fellow at BioLogos Foundation, a Christian group that tries to reconcile faith and science. The group was founded by Francis Collins, an evangelical and the current head of the National Institutes of Health, who, because of his position, declined an interview.

And Venema is part of a growing cadre of Christian scholars who say they want their faith to come into the 21st century. Another one is John Schneider, who taught theology at Calvin College in Michigan until recently. He says it's time to face facts: There was no historical Adam and Eve, no serpent, no apple, no fall that toppled man from a state of innocence.

"Evolution makes it pretty clear that in nature, and in the moral experience of human beings, there never was any such paradise to be lost," Schneider says. "So Christians, I think, have a challenge, have a job on their hands to reformulate some of their tradition about human beginnings."

http://www.npr.org/tablet/#story/?url=/2011/08/09/138957812/evangelicals-question-the-existence-of-adam-and-eve

The story of Adam and Eve and the creation story in the bible is pure mythology. . . .Little wonder Christians  that are into the filed of Astronomy, anthropology and genetics are now pushing it away and claiming it is an allegory. . . . .Its just plain crazy to believe that the first humans were created about 10 thousand years ago in some mysterious garden, when we have paintings in some caves that date over 20, 000 years ago. . . . .

mazaje:

The story of Adam and Eve and the creation story in the bible is pure mythology. . . .Little wonder Christians  that are into the filed of Astronomy, anthropology and genetics are now pushing it away and claiming it is an allegory. . . . .Its just plain crazy to believe that the first humans were created about 10 thousand years ago in some mysterious garden, when we have paintings in some caves that date over 20, 000 years ago. . . . .

Unfortunately, the people who need to read this and understand what it means are not the most curious of people. They are probably reading the peachy motivational passages their pastor fed them on Sunday.

What makes this better is that the researchers are actually educated Christians who are being objective so apologists can't say "oh, they have a devilish agenda against Christianity". But we can't rule out the " no true Christian" fallacy.

Martian:

Unfortunately, the people who need to read this and understand what it means are not the most curious of people. They are probably reading the peachy motivational passages their pastor fed them on Sunday.

What makes this better is that the researchers are actually educated Christians who are being objective so apologists can't say "oh, they have a devilish agenda against Christianity". But we can't rule out the " no true Christian" fallacy.

Sure, they might be used by the devil, after all man' s intelligence and cleverness is like filthy rags in from of the Lord. . . But its just funny that man with his filthy intelligence and cleverness has done more to help himself than the lord has ever done or will ever do to help him. . .

mazaje:

Sure, they might be used by the devil, after all man' s intelligence and cleverness is like filthy rags in from of the Lord. . . But its just funny that man with his filthy intelligence and cleverness has done more to help himself than the lord has ever done or will ever do to help him. . .

I think most can't fathom that the very basis of their existence is based on lies that have been assumed to be absolute truths since they were children. The existential crisis that will accompany an acknowledgment of the non existence of god will probably drive some berserk. Just imagine Vedaxcool and Sweetnecta without their delusions or Frosbel and enigma without the fuzzy feelings of "eternal life".

It's probably better that they are devout. Now if we can just get them to keep their ideologies from causing needless chaos directly and indirectly every single day.

Martian:

I think most can't fathom that the very basis of their existence is based on lies that have been assumed to be absolute truths since they were children. The existential crisis that will accompany an acknowledgment of the non existence of god will probably drive some berserk. J[b]ust imagine Vedaxcool and Sweetnecta without their delusions or Frosbel and enigma[/b] without the fuzzy feelings of "eternal life".

It's probably better that they are devout. Now if we can just get them to keep their ideologies from causing needless chaos directly and indirectly every single day.

You won't believe it, but I was once very much like them. . . .

mazaje:

You won't believe it, but I was once very much like them. . . .

Glad to see you took the red pill. Unfortunately, most simply do not possess the intellect or critical thinking skills to face reality, so they take double doses of the blue pill. Courage also plays a big part in leaving those delusions and it's apparent cowardice plays a part in these beliefs when believers use different variations of pascal's wager.

Plato spoke my mind with his "Allegory of the Cave", they will rather pat themselves on the back while guessing about shadows rather than get out of the cave and gaze upon the sun.

is there any point in quoting yourselves since for now only are keenly exchanging ideas
BTW: no matter the findings any expert put forwards, some people (moi inclusive) will still believe everything the bible says
maybe they should tell how impossible the virgin birth is

Martian:

Researching The Human Genome

Venema says there is no way we can be traced back to a single couple. He says with the mapping of the human genome, it's clear that modern humans emerged from other primates as a large population — long before the Genesis time frame of a few thousand years ago. And given the genetic variation of people today, he says scientists can't get that population size below 10,000 people at any time in our evolutionary history.

To get down to just two ancestors, Venema says, "You would have to postulate that there's been this absolutely astronomical mutation rate that has produced all these new variants in an incredibly short period of time. Those types of mutation rates are just not possible. It would mutate us out of existence."

Venema is a senior fellow at BioLogos Foundation, a Christian group that tries to reconcile faith and science. The group was founded by Francis Collins, an evangelical and the current head of the National Institutes of Health, who, because of his position, declined an interview.

And Venema is part of a growing cadre of Christian scholars who say they want their faith to come into the 21st century. Another one is John Schneider, who taught theology at Calvin College in Michigan until recently. He says it's time to face facts: There was no historical Adam and Eve, no serpent, no apple, no fall that toppled man from a state of innocence.

"Evolution makes it pretty clear that in nature, and in the moral experience of human beings, there never was any such paradise to be lost," Schneider says. "So Christians, I think, have a challenge, have a job on their hands to reformulate some of their tradition about human beginnings."

http://www.npr.org/tablet/#story/?url=/2011/08/09/138957812/evangelicals-question-the-existence-of-adam-and-eve

And so it begins . . .

careytommy:

is there any point in quoting yourselves since for now only are keenly exchanging ideas
BTW: no matter the findings any expert put forwards, some people (moi inclusive) will still believe everything the bible says
maybe they should tell how impossible the virgin birth is

So, you actually believe that zombies wandered the earth for a while, a man was swallowed by a fish and a donkey spoke to someone? I hope you realize that if you can believe these, you can believe anything.

careytommy:

is there any point in quoting yourselves since for now only are keenly exchanging ideas
BTW: no matter the findings any expert put forwards, some people (moi inclusive) will still believe everything the bible says
maybe they should tell how impossible the virgin birth is

Really?. . . . .Do you believe that Mohammed the prophet of Islam once divided the moon into two?. . . .If you do tell us why you do and if you don't you can also tell us why you don't believe it happened. . . .Thank you. . .

These atheists and their jokes. You guys should function more often in the joke section of nairaland. Even Jesus believes the Adam and Eve account. By the way, not many christians care if Mo divided the moon or joined the stars, it's pointless.

[Quote]« #11 on: Today at 08:19:25 PM »

These atheists and their jokes. You guys should function more often in the joke section of nairaland. Even Jesus believes the Adam and Eve account. By the way, not many christians care if Mo divided the moon or joined the stars, it's pointless.[/Quote]i wish i can use the bold, replacing atheists with christians and jews.

as to the un-bold, if jesus was God, believe of Adam and Eve account would not what you will write, but was the Master behind it, and i would have forced you to provide proof.

If not all christians care, do you see the footstep of the jews about Jesus in what you said as a christian about Muhammad [as]?

@Martian; [Quote]I think most can't fathom that the very basis of their existence is based on lies that have been assumed to be absolute truths since they were children.[/Quote]what is the truth about the basic existence of man, use martian and his ascendants as example? Where do you come from; how did you become this modern man? Who was the pre-modern man, and what was his or its description, and who was that first modern man that came from him? What made the change[s] drastic or gradual, it does not matter, make your own choice?



[Quote]The existential crisis that will accompany an acknowledgment of the non existence of god will probably drive some berserk.[/Quote]so what exist before the first thing you accept exist? How does that thing exist and or came to existence? Please give reasonable proofs.



[Quote]Just imagine Vedaxcool and Sweetnecta without their delusions or Frosbel and enigma without the fuzzy feelings of "eternal life".[/Quote]please use the two questions above to explain yourself and that will be enough to answer the delusional issue that you said vedaxcool and me have as muslims. you may even expanciate as much as you want. proof you must and you can't i will take it that you are suffering from delusion.



[Quote]It's probably better that they are devout. Now if we can just get them to keep their ideologies from causing needless chaos directly and indirectly every single day.[/Quote]they are shooting people up in norway. i pray denmark is not next because the white dude will be coming for all you blacks running after their women. that is your ideology; chasing the white ideals.

Guys, we're in the 21st Century CE. Narratives (including the creation stories) contained in the Hebrew Bible purely derive from Ancient Near Eastern mythological and folkloric traditions. If you believe them, you'll believe anything, including the existence of unicorns.

Any wonder, as someone has already noted on NL (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-729997.0.html) that some Nigerian mission universities do not have theology departments! The fact is, subsequent biblical narratives stand or fall with the creation stories in the Book of Genesis, explaining the unwillingness of some within the Judeo-Christian traditions to doggedly hold on to the Scriptures as inspired word of god. Quite clearly, Venema and other researchers at BioLogos Foundation have arguably not only seen the light which should lighten their darkness, but also encountered the truth which should set them free from the shackles of religious beliefs.

Sweetnecta:

@Martian; what is the truth about the basic existence of man, use martian and his ascendants as example? Where do you come from; how did you become this modern man? Who was the pre-modern man, and what was his or its description, and who was that first modern man that came from him? What made the change[s] drastic or gradual, it does not matter, make your own choice?

The truth about existence is that life has no intrinsic meaning. It's up to the individual to define the nature of his existence and that can't be done if the person is shackled with religious dogma.  Some say we exist to perpetuate the species but I think humans are free to take their own lives if they are not satisfied with their existence or can't find a purpose without passing on their genes.  Sartre said "existence precedes essence" which means I exist first and what I become essentially is up to me and not based on predistination or some intrinsic human nature caused by an idea as archaic as "original sin". Basically I can be good or bad by choice because I'm essentially neither. But while choosing to be good or bad, one has to always remember than other humans are also emotionally fragile creatures.

I came from Mars.
Pre- Modern man wrote the Quran. His ideas are found in the quran and other similar texts.
Modern man is someone like me. Civilized and devoid of religious dogma. The modern man came about as a result of science,technology and human realization than cooperation is better than fatalistic competition.

Sweetnecta:

so what exist before the first thing you accept exist? How does that thing exist and or came to existence? Please give reasonable proofs.

The only thing I know that exists is the universe because I am a concious and sentient part of it. What came before the universe? I have no idea.

Sweetnecta:

please use the two questions above to explain yourself and that will be enough to answer the delusional issue that you said vedaxcool and me have as muslims. you may even expanciate as much as you want. proof you must and you can't i will take it that you are suffering from delusion.

Today's religion is tommorow's mythology. Ask Zeus.

Sweetnecta:

they are shooting people up in norway. i pray denmark is not next because the white dude will be coming for all you blacks running after their women. that is your ideology; chasing the white ideals.

I don't live in Denmark but I like all shades of women as long as they are not religious or spiritual.  I don't chase white ideals nor do i chase black ideals, my ideology is basically to give as much liberty as I'm willing to get. In other words everyone has a right to do whatever they want as long as their actions do not harm others.

Quote from: careytommy on Yesterday at 07:05:10 PM

is there any point in quoting yourselves since for now only are keenly exchanging ideas
BTW: no matter the findings any expert put forwards, some people (moi inclusive) will still believe everything the bible says
maybe they should tell how impossible the virgin birth is

careytommy, exchanging ideas is what forums are for, don't you think?
As for believing 'everything the bible says', do you really believe:
the suns turns around the earth?
the sun can stand still in the sky?
the story of the Flood?

While we are at it, here's evidence of gene transfer in some spanish mice that has made them resistant to a type of poison. Did someone say evidence? Evolution is just a theory.

Here's a piece of biology news that escaped us, last month, but was brought to our attention by a story in the BBC today: Biologist have found the reason house mice in Spain and Germany have grown immune to warfarin, a commonly used poison.
The idea of a poison-resistant mouse is a bit unsettling, but how it came to be is fascinating tale of cross-species sex. The BBC reports:
[b][The] mice have rapidly evolved the trait by breeding with an Algerian species from which they have been separate for over a million years.[/b]The researchers say this type of gene transfer is highly unusual and normally found in plants and bacteria.
The Current Biology report says this process could yield mice resistant to almost any form of pest control.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/08/10/139401862/why-are-spanish-mice-resistant-to-a-common-poison