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Benin-ife Relationship Explored - Culture (3) - Nairaland

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Reasons The Benin Ife Relationship Was A Lie Told By Royal Elite / The name benin and her origin Benin-ife Conspiracy / The Benin- Ife Myth Shouldn't Be Circulated Again Ever Again (2) (3) (4)

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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by scholes0(m): 7:23am On Feb 04, 2023
UGBE634:
you mean the Irado

Please how did he lost the position, was he deposed, I don't know much about Utesse,

His Paleh died in I think '86. Since then they did not have another Olutese till 2012. After that, he was presented to the Oba as an Enogie.

He is the 35th Olutese on record even after a 26 year break. If we do an average of 25 years reign for each ruler minus the 26 years between 86 and 2012 then you will get an idea how old the stool is.

2 Likes

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by UGBE634: 7:31am On Feb 04, 2023
scholes0:


His Paleh died in I think '86. Since then they did not have another Olutese till 2012. After that, he was presented to the Oba as an Enogie.

He is the 35th Olutese on record even after a 26 year break. If we do an average of 25 years reign for each ruler minus the 26 years between 86 and 2012 then you will get an idea how old the stool is.
You see their story of migration and the age of their stool also seem to align with the age or periods, the Obas of Benin left Ife

2 Likes

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by scholes0(m): 7:33am On Feb 04, 2023
UGBE634:
These seven kings are not in the class of those that were appointed by the past Oba's

The Oba Himself
Okaivbo of Urhonigbe
Enogie of Ugo
Enogie of Egor
Ogie-amien of Utantan
Iyase of Udo
Olu-awure of Usen

The reasons are this
1. The ages of these towns
2. The ages of these stools, none there is less than 500 years old
3. Their averagely larger size over other villages in Benin
4. Their historical importance to Edo as a race or Bini as a nation
Each of these communities and their stools meet at least 1, 2 or maybe all of the requirements

The rest are majorly "dagbo" the Oba will just cut seven small villages add them together and send his brother. It happened alot during the reign of Oba Akenzua, Eredieuwa and even this present Oba has sent some
The rest are

We know.
Infact, that was how the originally majority Itsekiri community of Ologbo got their own Enogie yesterday (In historical longevity terms)

1 Like

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by UGBE634: 7:38am On Feb 04, 2023
scholes0:


We know.
Infact, that was how the originally majority Itsekiri community of Ologbo got their own Enogie.
That's true, Jason Owen Akenzua is the Enogie there, but bro Ologbo is not an Itsekiri community, it is owned naturally by the Binis, Itsekiris came to settle there, it is a community like Warri where there are Itsekiris, Urhobo, Ijaw. Just that in this case, it is the Binis and the Itsekiris

They are not majority, I am aware there are about ten quarters there, the Binis reside in five, Itsekiris reside in the other five
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by scholes0(m): 7:52am On Feb 04, 2023
UGBE634:
That's true, Jason Owen Akenzua is the Enogie there, but bro Ologbo is not an Itsekiri community, it is owned naturally by the Binis, Itsekiris came to settle there, it is a community like Warri where there are Itsekiris, Urhobo, Ijaw. Just that in this case, it is the Binis and the Itsekiris

They are not majority, I am aware there are about ten quarters there, the Binis reside in five, Itsekiris reside in the other five

Even if we go by the way you described it, it is still at the very least an Itsekiri and Benin community.
The reason why the Ologbo issue is dicey is that there are still some smaller Itsekiri villages in the vicinity that are not Mixed with Binis; Abiala, Ajoki and co.

The Original Ologbo itself has been variously described as an Itsekiri waterside village.
If you want to say Benin are the traditional landowners and the others are 'sojourners/tenants' though, that would be a purely Benin-Itsekiri issue just like what is going on between the Benins and the Olodiama branch of the Ijaws.

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by UGBE634: 8:03am On Feb 04, 2023
scholes0:


Even if we go by the way you described it, it is still at the very least an Itsekiri and Benin community.
The reason why the Ologbo issue is dicey is that there are still some smaller Itsekiri villages in the vicinity that are not Mixed with Binis; Abiala, Ajoki and co.

The Original Ologbo itself has been variously described as an Itsekiri waterside village.
If you want to say Benin are the traditional landowners and the others are 'sojourners/tenants' though, that would be a purely Benin-Itsekiri issue just like what is going on between the Benins and the Olodiama branch of the Ijaws.
South of Benin city was the Sapele-Benin road which passed through Ologbo, and Itsekiri waterside Village situated on a roughly circular open plateau

This was what was written o, they did not describe Ologbo as waterside village o, why you dae shoot yourself for foot, there was comma after Ologbo, that is to say that after Ologbo, you get to Itsekiri waterside village

Why Ologbo seem to be different is this, there are Binis resident there and they have numbers, those other waterside villages that Itsekiris are resident in are not Ologbo, they are Itsekiri waterside village after Ologbo

But for the Ijaws, the Oral account we have with them is that they came to settle in our land, and that land, they settled in, the Binis do not reside there. Gele Gele is an example

1 Like

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by Efewestern: 8:08am On Feb 04, 2023
Supremacism is the reason we won't get anything right as regards to our historical connections and heritage.

Some things shouldn't even be debated when the facts are there. You can't claim to apply common sense and logic and still believe somethings.

The Oba title debate is funny to me because Edo is the core root of most South Southerners and it won't be difficult to validate some claims. If you say the Oba title was used for over 1000years, then other edoid groups would have retained it in their various dialects.

As we speak, the only title that spreads across all related group is Ogie. Now here are my questions.

* When was Oba first used ?

* Why isn't it found in any Edoid languages?

* Most Edoid groups were very independent from Bini influences and would have adopted the title for their leaders if it was the title used pre-migration.

* Why was Ogie the general accepted word for king? Even Unrelated bini-influenced groups like Iwere used Ogi(e)ame. Why not Oba-Ame?

I believe there is a missing link somewhere. The dots aren't connecting.

5 Likes

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by samuk: 8:10am On Feb 04, 2023
UGBE634:
Or are the Okun yoruba people of the Niger Benue confluence area the answer?


stop repeating this stance, just because the
Ogie of Urhonigbe uses Okaevbo does not mean his Original tribal title for king is not Ogie. it's not what should come out of your mouth as a rebuttal.

Or because the Ogie of Udo has the Iyase as his title does not mean that the title Ogie is not his tribal title for king




You are fixated with Yoruba. When you genuinely seek the truth, you must allow the evidence to lead you. You don't have a fixed position in your head and then look for evidence to support your position. You must be flexible in your thought process, not stagnant.

Several Benin people have looked at the Benin/Ife connection story and couldn't reconcile the story with Benin history as documented. The Europeans whose ancestors documented Benin history couldn't also make sense of it.

The yoruba people themselves can't come up with any plausible link between Benin and Ife older than the reign of Oba Eweka the second.

Whilst dismissing the Benin Ife connection, Ryder postulated that if there were any connection between Benin and Yoruba it would have happened way back in history around the Nupe-Igala, Niger Benue confluence.

Have you seen my thread on Pa Idu, I suggest you go back and read it again. The story of Pa idu seems to flow in the same direction with what Ryder postulated.

There is a Pa Idu shrine in Benin which the oba worship, there is no Oduduwa or Ife shrine in Benin.

There is absolutely nothing concrete on ground apart from word of mouth to link Benin to Ife. Nothing in history linked Benin to Ife but the Europeans did recorded in the 1400s that they were told of Benin pilgrimage site around the Nupe-Igala Niger Benue confluence. There are ancient Benin artefacts that seems to depict Nupe-Igala people.

You are not the only one seeking the truth about Benin/Ife connection. If anyone can provide concrete evidence to back up the connection earlier the reign of Oba Eweka 2, I will begin to take it seriously.

You agree that there are gaps in the Benin/Ife migration story, but you are willing to fill the gabs with your own theories.

1 Like

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by scholes0(m): 8:11am On Feb 04, 2023
UGBE634:
South of Benin city was the Sapele-Benin road which passed through Ologbo, and Itsekiri waterside Village situated on a roughly circular open plateau

This was what was written o, they did not describe Ologbo as waterside village o, why you dae shoot yourself for foot, there was comma after Ologbo, that is to say that after Ologbo, you get to Itsekiri waterside village

Why Ologbo seem to be different is this, there are Binis resident there and they have numbers, those other waterside villages that Itsekiris are resident in are not Ologbo, they are Itsekiri waterside village after Ologbo

But for the Ijaws, the Oral account we have with them is that they came to settle in our land, and that land, they settled in, the Binis do not reside there. Gele Gele is an example

Immediately after Ologbo is the Orhiomwon-Ologbo river complex there is no waterside village after Ologbo. Those other villages I listed are small hamlets west of ologbo not after it on the way to sapele.
Either the Itsekiri water side village has been subsumed into Ologbo itself, or there was a typo.

1 Like

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by UGBE634: 8:17am On Feb 04, 2023
samuk:


You are fixated with Yoruba. When you genuinely seek the truth, you must allow the evidence to lead you. You don't have a fixed position in your head and then look for evidence to support your position. You must be flexible in your thought process, not stagnant.

Several Benin people have looked at the Benin/Ife connection story and couldn't reconcile the story with Benin history as documented. The Europeans whose ancestors documented Benin history couldn't also make sense of it.

The yoruba people themselves can't come up with any plausible link between Benin and Ife older than the reign of Oba Eweka the second.

Whilst dismissing the Benin Ife connection, Ryder postulated that if there were any connection between Benin and Yoruba it would have happened way back in history around the Nupe-Igala, Niger Benue confluence.

Have you seen my thread on Pa Idu, I suggest you go back and read it again. The story of Pa idu seems to flow in the same direction with what Ryder postulated.

No one in Benin have linked Pa Idu to Ife In yoruba land. There is a Pa Idu shrine in Benin which the oba worship, there is no Oduduwa or Ife shrine Benin.

There is absolutely nothing concrete on ground apart from word of mouth to link Benin to Ife. Nothing in history linked Benin to Ife but the Europeans did recorded in the 1400s that they were told of Benin pilgrimage site around the Nupe-Igala Niger Benue confluence. There are ancient Benin artefacts that seems to depict Nupe-Igala people.

You are not the only one seeking the truth about Benin/Ife connection. If anyone can provide concrete evidence to back up the connection earlier the reign of Oba Eweka 2, I will begin to take it seriously.

You seem to be doing the same thing you accuse me of

how will you explain the Oba title and the Ososomaye juju, Sango, Orunmila into Benin city. He makes use of these juju/gods and worship them

If you don't call these concrete I don't know what is.

Why does it seem to align alone with those kings whose ancestry seem to be yoruba. I mean the Oba title

In the whole of the entire Edo and Edoid speaking area
The only kings that bear that are related to or come outrightly from Ife

Oba of Agbede
Oba of Benin
Oba-Oluogbe of Usen

Why does the dating of the Royal line of Utesse and Usen dynasty align with that of the Oba

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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by UGBE634: 8:18am On Feb 04, 2023
scholes0:


Immediately after Ologbo is the Orhiomwon-Ologbo river complex there is no waterside village after Ologbo. Those other villages I listed are small hamlets west of ologbo not after it on the way to sapele.
Either the Itsekiri water side village has been subsumed into Ologbo itself, or there was a typo.
It must have been subsumed into it then, are you sure it is not part of the communities that make up their five quarters today
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by scholes0(m): 8:29am On Feb 04, 2023
davidnazee:


You seem confused.. what invitation doesn't make sense to you?
is it the invitation for ife to send someone to rule Benin or the invitation for Ekhalederan's descendant to return home to rule?

The Oba title isn't much of an issue. It could be of Edo origin or Yoruba origin. It could also be that Ekhalederan's descendant decided to introduce the title his father used in ife since that is the culture he was raised in too.

The only thing that doesn't make sense and a foolish assumption is that Benin was attacked by ife/usen or that Benin (an already established and civilized people) will go to ife to ask for a foreigner to come rule them.

Don't kid yourself here, it is a HUGE issue!
So it absolutely doesn't make sense to you that the Ujama could invite a non royal Edo 'stranger' to rule in Benin, but it makes perfect sense to you that the descendants of that same prestigious lineage that has supposedly existed for hundreds of years would suddenly Jettison the title of their reverred ancestors, one which they have always used in favour of a STRANGE title that has no meaning in their language.

Even the greeting of the entire pedigree of new rulers had to change from the previous Laiso/Delaiso to La'Ooni and later on, La-m'Ogun.

If only you were honest with yourself, you would know that the only force powerful enough to achieve this is that of DYNASTIC CHANGE to something different… i.e, To the current “House of Oranmiyan”

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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by samuk: 8:44am On Feb 04, 2023
UGBE634:
how will you explain the Oba title and the Ososomaye juju, Sango, Orunmila into Benin city.

What makes you think or believe the Oba title is yoruba in origin?

Are you aware that it was the Alaafin that was met on ground as the leader of the yoruba people in 1826 and his title was recorded as Alaafin not Oba. I have also pointed out to you that Ibadan didn't adopt the Oba title until 1955. I am sure you are also aware that the Oba of Lagos was formerly known as Eleko.

When you have questions, you seek answers but in your case you pick few information and make up stories fill up any missing gab.

You start with your migration stories but you are not convinced by Benin sending for a complete foreigner, so you decided that Benin must have been conquered.

Tomorrow someone with your mindset will pick up from where your theory stop and build on it by filling any inconsistencies with their own theories. In hundred years from now a fairytales developed into what people wants to believe as history. This is what has been happening to our history since 1897. Luckily for the Benin people whose history was documented for centuries, it easy for us to go back and separate the fairytales from our real history.

You are entitled to believe what you like, I only engaged you and point out your inconsistencies for the benefit of future Edo people that may genuinely be interested in their authentic history, not made up stories and theories that is not earlier than 1897.

1 Like

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by UGBE634: 8:49am On Feb 04, 2023
samuk:


What makes you think or believe the Oba title is yoruba in origin?

Are you aware that it was the Alaafin that was met on ground as the leader of the yoruba people in 1826 and his title was recorded as Alaafin not Oba. I have also pointed out to you that Ibadan didn't adopt the Oba title until 1955. I am sure you are also aware that the Oba of Lagos was formerly known as Eleko.

When you have questions, you seek answers but in your case you pick few information and make up stories fill up any missing gab.

You start with your migration stories but you are not convinced by Benin sending for a complete foreigner, so you decided that Benin must have been conquered.

Tomorrow someone with your mindset will pick up from where your theory stop and build on it by filling any inconsistencies with their own theories. In hundred years from now a fairytales developed into what people wants to believe as history. This is what has been happening to our history since 1897. Luckily for the Benin people whose history was documented for centuries, it easy for us to go back and separate the fairytales from our real history.

You are entitled to believe what you like, I only engaged you and point out your inconsistencies for the benefit of future Edo people that may genuinely be interested in their authentic history, not made up stories and theories that is not earlier than 1897.
it is Obviously now, read my entire last reply to you, I have explained this already with the Okaivbo narrative,

Samuel push your narrative, let me push mine,if you have not quoted my post, I wouldn't have bothered challenging you on yours, "Paul said Paul planteth, Apollo's watereth, it is God that giveth increase" I seem to be more comfortable on this narrative or I see more evidences on this path than the other.

2 Likes

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by samuk: 9:08am On Feb 04, 2023
AutomaticMotors:


Why you dey waste your time lecturing him?

Some people have been miseducated to believe that Benin history started during the reign of Oba Eweka 2. They confined their understanding of Benin history within this period and are uninterested in anything before that because they know it will expose them.

Sometimes it's neccesary to engage people like these for the benefit of those that want the truth.

You will usually have two kinds of people, those that absolutely believe in their position for what ever reasons or agenda and are ready to defend it even with made up theories and a second group of people that are genuinely researching the truth and are not afraid of where the evidences leads them. These second sets of people usually don't have agenda and motives and are not limited in their data collection. They look at the entire picture and in this case the entire documented history spanning over 600 years.

We don't want people that are genuinely seeking the true history of Benin to be deceived into thinking that Benin history started with Oba Eweka 2 in 1914.

1 Like

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by RedboneSmith(m): 9:21am On Feb 04, 2023
davidnazee:


The dutch historian A.F.C Ryder points out in his work that… "next to nothing is known about the Yoruba people themselves at this early
date, and the assertion that Benin sent for an alien (yoruba) ruler instead of accepting one of their numbers was inherently implausible”


Wow. Sir, what mischief is this? Why are you re-writing the words of the late A. F. C. Ryder? This intellectual dishonesty is not necessary na.

You took the words that the late historian wrote in his chapter "Benin Kingdom" in the book Groundwork of Nigerian History and you mangled it to say the opposite of what the historian wrote.

Ryder did not write that Benin sending for an alien (Yoruba) ruler was inherently implausible. These are Ryder's exact words: "...we seem to tread on firmer ground when we come to the traditions which recount in some detail how a number of Benin chiefs, rather than accept one of their own number as an hereditary ruler, sought a sovereign from the Yoruba dynasty ruling in Ife. There is nothing inherently implausible in this story". (page 110)

Yes, Ryder did say that next to nothing was know about the Yoruba at that early date, but a full quote illustrates that he was not heading to the conclusion that your mangled quote portrays. Ryder's words in full on page 112 of the same book:" What innovations the dynasty may have brought from its place of origin we cannot determine because next to nothing is known about the Yoruba peoples themselves at this early date. The essential innovation was presumably the monarchy itself: all the features that made the Benin kingship distinctive, and very different from the corresponding institutions in Yorubaland, seem to have emerged in later years when the dynasty must have become absorbed in Edo environment."

There is no doubt that Professor Ryder was a proponent of the "Out of Yorubaland" theory as regards the current Benin dynasty. There is nothing wrong with you holding a different opinion from this. But to wilfully distort a scholar's words is a hell of a desperate move. Not cool, bro.

4 Likes

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by AutomaticMotors: 9:24am On Feb 04, 2023
RedboneSmith:


Wow. Sir, what mischief is this? Why are you re-writing the words of the late A. F. C. Ryder? This intellectual dishonesty is not necessary na.

You took the words that the late historian wrote in his chapter "Benin Kingdom in the book Groundwork of Nigerian History and you mangled it to say the opposite of what the historian wrote.

Ryder did not write that Benjn sending for an alien (Yoruba) ruler was inherently implausible. These are Ryder's exact words: "...we seem to tread on firmer ground when we come to the traditions which recount in some detail how a number of Benin chiefs, rather than accept one of their own number as an hereditary ruler, sought a sovereign from the Yoruba dynasty ruling in Ife. There is nothing inherently implausible in this story". (page 110)

Yes, Ryder did say that next to nothing was know about the Yoruba at that early date, but a full quote illustrates that he was heading to the conclusion that your mangled quote portrays. Ryder's words in full on page 112 of the same book:" What innovations the dynasty may have brought from its place of origin we cannot determine because next to nothing is known about the Yoruba peoples themselves at this early date. The essential innovation was presumably the monarchy itself: all the features that made the Benin kingship distinctive, and very different from the corresponding institutions in Yorubaland, seem to have emerged in later years when the dynasty must have become absorbed in Edo environment."

There is no doubt that Professor Ryder was a proponent of the "Out of Yorubaland" theory as regards the current Benin dynasty. There is nothing wrong with you holding a different opinion from this. But to wilfully distort a scholar's words is a hell of a desperate move. Not cool, bro.

Mr man It seems like your hand is just itching you to type because your post actually buttressed his point!
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by RedboneSmith(m): 9:25am On Feb 04, 2023
AutomaticMotors:


Mr man It seems like your hand is just itching you to type because your post actually buttressed his point!

If it buttressed his point to you, then you are a functional illiterate.

2 Likes

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by AutomaticMotors: 9:28am On Feb 04, 2023
RedboneSmith:


If it buttressed his point to you, then you are a functional illiterate.

After your Fada Boy! The same Fada that taught you to be mannerless and dabble into matters that are way above your IQ level!!
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by RedboneSmith(m): 9:38am On Feb 04, 2023
AutomaticMotors:


After your Fada Boy! The same Fada that taught you to be mannerless and dabble into matters that are way above your IQ level!!

😂😂😂

Go ahead and display your mechanic behaviour. What I wrote to you was not an insult. The difference between what your friend wrote and what Ryder wrote is as clear as day, especially with regard to inherent plausibility of the Yoruba-descent claim. If you cannot see that, your literacy in the English language is very questionable. That's not an insult; that's an observation.

And about IQ levels, not to brag, but there are perhaps only one or two people on this entire thread that are on the same IQ levels with me. The rest of you (including YOU) are dumber than a sack of potatoes.

1 Like

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by AutomaticMotors: 9:43am On Feb 04, 2023
RedboneSmith:


😂😂😂

Go ahead and display your mechanic behaviour. What I wrote to you was not an insult. The difference between what your friend wrote and what Ryder wrote is as clear as day, especially with regard to inherent plausibility of the Yoruba-descent claim. If you cannot see that, your literacy in the English language is very questionable. That's not an insult; that's an observation.

And about IQ levels, not to brag, but there are perhaps only one or two people on this entire thread that are on the same IQ levels with me. The rest of you are dumber than a sack of potatoes.

**Yawns*** Young man just pack your "Carton head" grin for one syde!
Since I have known your leprous Monika, sense was never attached to it! Check am nobody send you clow.n! Na Edo matter dey make your arse dey leak grin

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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by samuk: 9:52am On Feb 04, 2023
Ryder summary make it clear that the Benin/Ife connection was a latter-day cock and bull story. A story that cannot be easily reconcile with Europeans recorded history of Benin from the 15th century. Those whose mission is to undermine Benin history have their work cut out for them because unlike our neighbours, Benin history is well documented.

The Benin/Ife connection posed so many difficulties that to accommodate it, expert have postulated hypothesis of some meeting point in the past between Benin and Yoruba around the Nupe-Igala Niger Benue confluence.

There are absolutely no evidence to suggest that Benin had any relationship with Ife between the 1400s till the 1800s. There were countless Europeans and Catholic priest resident in Benin in that period of 400 years to have missed such an important relationship.

The Europeans recorded the Benin/Ida war of the 1500s, death and burial of oba of benin in the same 1500s, Benin colony of Lagos in 1602 etc, yet nothing about Ife, a supposedly very important relationship.

3 Likes

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by AreaFada2: 3:33pm On Feb 04, 2023
What we now call Benin, Ife/Yoruba and Igbo civilisations most likely first grew from Benue/Niger area. That is much more likely. The similarities between people/languages of Benue/Niger confluence axis with Yoruba on one hand and Igbo on the other still show it. Nobody came from no India, Babylon, Egypt, Iraq, Israel or Viet Kong. grin cheesy grin cheesy

Core Benin, without direct contiguity with Benue/Niger may have reduced similarities between Benin and Benue/Niger languages over time. Not to say that there are none at all or that there wasn't any movement back and forth. The excavation of "Orun Oba Ado" site in Ife that yielded nothing related to Benin at all is quite telling.

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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by AutomaticMotors: 3:45pm On Feb 04, 2023
AreaFada2:
What we now call Benin, Ife/Yoruba and Igbo civilisations most likely first grew from Benue/Niger area. That is much more likely. The similarities between people/languages Benue/Niger confluence axis with Yoruba on one hand and Igbo on the other still shows it. Nobody came from no India, Babylon, Egypt, Iraq, Israel or Viet Kong. grin cheesy grin cheesy

Core Benin, without direct contiguity with Benue/Niger may have reduced similarities between Benin and Benue/Niger languages. Not to say that there are none at all or that there wasn't any movement back and forth. The excavation of "Orun Oba Ado" site in Ife that yielded nothing related to Benin at all is quite telling.

This is the most likely theory .... I agree with this
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by AreaFada2: 4:31pm On Feb 04, 2023
Efewestern:
Supremacism is the reason we won't get anything right as regards to our historical connections and heritage.

Some things shouldn't even be debated when the facts are there. You can't claim to apply common sense and logic and still believe somethings.

The Oba title debate is funny to me because Edo is the core root of most South Southerners and it won't be difficult to validate some claims. If you say the Oba title was used for over 1000years, then other edoid groups would have retained it in their various dialects.

As we speak, the only title that spreads across all related group is Ogie. Now here are my questions.

* When was Oba first used ?

* Why isn't it found in any Edoid languages?

* Most Edoid groups were very independent from Bini influences and would have adopted the title for their leaders if it was the title used pre-migration.

* Why was Ogie the general accepted word for king? Even Unrelated bini-influenced groups like Iwere used Ogi(e)ame. Why not Oba-Ame?

I believe there is a missing link somewhere. The dots aren't connecting.

Let me tell you why. Whether Edoid groups were largely independent or dependent, most acknowledged Oba's superiority. Even those that were more independent sought Oba's confirmation or blessing. Even outside direct Edo areas.

For example, in 1818 (just yesterday in historical terms), Benin sacked Akure when the new Deji of Akure refused to accept instruments of office from Chief Osagwe, Oba Osemwende's emissary. The Deji even murdered Osague (a title also adopted by some Yoruba monarchies as Sagwe or Sawe as a chief). It was serious rebellion and breach of established order. Of course Oba demanded Deji's head physically and got it.

As for Warri, in 1480, Oba Olua sent his son Prince Iginuwa (Ginuwa) to go and be the Lord of the Seas as his new domain. There are various versions as to how this came about. But he was to be "Ogie Amen". About 8 or 9 years ago, the father of current Olu said was now a Christian and wanted to drop Ogiame title. His own family and Iwerre youth protested. He was advised to retain it or abdicate. Gov. Uduaghan, Rita Lori Ogbegbor and others had to intervene. He retained the name to calm things. Iwerre people said Ogiame is the tittle Iginuwa brought from Benin and there is no dropping it. Adding Olu to it is fine. I posted the link to the story on NL before.

All rulers below the Oba were never called Oba in Benin Empire. They were seen as dukes/Enogie/Ogie/Enigie. In the same way Enogie of Utese and Enogie of Usen are seen today. If they were in Delta or outside Edo South, they might be officially called king by now.

Even when Lagos monarchy was founded by Oba Orhogbua of Benin, it was meant as a dukedom, under Benin and that was in Benin view the case until 1861 when Britain took over Lagos with Eleko Dosunmu. Lagos rulers did not even use Oba title before then but Eleko.

In essence, in Benin view, Oba was not just a kingship title but also an emperor. Therefore, no other ruler believed to have allegiance to Benin would bear Oba title. Even if their Ogie title, due to influence and size of their domain, would equate to kingship. Obas of Benin were administratively very precise. Names, titles and all were well-controlled. They always figured out ways to outmanoeuvre the rising powers and influence of Benin High Aristocracy and areas considered Benin territory, whatever people now say of their history post-1897 and especially in current 9ja with rise of ethnic nationalism. It marvelled Europeans already from 1470s.

I have read numerous PG and doctoral theses on Benin History by researchers from across the world and it's quite amazing what they reveal everyday. From Oba Palace Musicology to Palace Societies to Councillors of State.

As for how long Oba title has existed, it was in Benin before Eweka 1 Dynasty. We have exhausted the history of the title here over the years in many threads and posts.

Today, nobody is superior over anyone. It doesn't feed anyone. History just has be straight.

2 Likes 1 Share

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by AutomaticMotors: 5:22pm On Feb 04, 2023
AreaFada2:


Let me tell you why. Whether Edoid groups were largely independent or dependent, most acknowledged Oba's superiority. Even those that were more independent sought Oba's confirmation or blessing. Even outside direct Edo areas.

For example, in 1818 (just yesterday in historical terms), Benin sacked Akure when the new Deji of Akure refused to accept instruments of office from Chief Osagwe, Oba Osemwende's emissary. The Deji even murdered Osague (a title also adopted by some Yoruba monarchies as Sagwe or Sawe as a chief). It was serious rebellion and breach of established order. Of course Oba demanded Deji's head physically and got it.

As for Warri, in 1480, Oba Olua sent his son Prince Iginuwa (Ginuwa) to go and be the Lord of the Seas as his new domain. There are various versions as to how this came about. But he was to be "Ogie Amen". About 8 or 9 years ago, the father of current Olu said was now a Christian and wanted to drop Ogiame title. His own family and Iwere youth protested. He was advised to retain it or abdicate. Gov. Uduaghan, Rita Lori Ogbegbor and others had to intervene. He retained the name to calm things. Iwere people said Ogiame is the tittle Iginuwa brought from Benin and there is no dropping it. Adding Olu to it fine. I posted the link to the story on NL before.

All rulers below the Oba were never called Oba in Benin Empire. They were seen as dukes/Enogie/Ogie/Enigie. In the same way Enogie of Utese and Enogie of Usen are seen today. If they were in Delta or outside Edo South, they might be officially called king by now.

Even when Lagos monarchy was founded by Oba Orhogbua of Benin, it was meant as a dukedom, under Benin and that was in Benin view the case until 1861 when Britain took over Lagos with Eleko Dosunmu. Lagos rulers did not even use Oba title before then but Eleko.

In essence, in Benin view, Oba was not just a King title but also an emperor. Therefore, no other ruler believed to have allegiance to Benin would bear Oba title. Even if their Ogie title, due to influence and size of their domain, would equate to kingship. Obas of Benin were administratively very precise. Names, titles and all were well-controlled. They always figured out ways to outmanoeuvre the rising powers and influence of Benin High Aristocracy and areas considered Benin territory, whatever people now say of their history post-1897 and especially in current 9ja with rise of ethnic nationalism. It marvelled Europeans already from 1470s.

I have read numerous PG and doctoral theses on Benin History by researchers from across the world and its quite amazing what they reveal everyday. From Oba Palace Musicology to Palace Societies to Councillors of State.

As for how long Oba title has existed, it was in Benin before Eweka 1 Dynasty. We have exhausted the history of the title here over the years in many threads and posts.

Today, nobody is superior over anyone. It doesn't feed anyone. History just has be straight.

Bookmarked ⭐⭐⭐

Ughator Epa! AreaFada2
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by Efewestern: 6:16pm On Feb 04, 2023
AreaFada2:


Let me tell you why. Whether Edoid groups were largely independent or dependent, most acknowledged Oba's superiority. Even those that were more independent sought Oba's confirmation or blessing. Even outside direct Edo areas.

For example, in 1818 (just yesterday in historical terms), Benin sacked Akure when the new Deji of Akure refused to accept instruments of office from Chief Osagwe, Oba Osemwende's emissary. The Deji even murdered Osagwe. It was serious rebellion and breach of established order. Of course Oba demanded Deji's head physically and got it.

As for Warri, in 1480, Oba Olua sent his son Prince Iginuwa (Ginuwa) to go and be the Lord of the Seas as his new domain. There are various versions as to how this came about. But he was to be "Ogie Amen". About 8 or 9 years ago, the father of current Olu said was now a Christian and wanted to drop Ogiame title. His own family and Iwere youth protested. He was advised to retain it or abdicate. Gov. Uduaghan, Rita Lori Ogbegbor and others had to intervene. He retained the name to calm things. Iwere people said Ogiame is the tittle Iginuwa brought from Benin and there is no dropping it. Adding Olu to it fine. I posted the link to the story on NL before.

All rulers below the Oba were never called Oba in Benin Empire. They were seen as dukes/Enogie/Ogie/Enigie. In the same way Enogie of Utese and Enogie of Usen are seen today. If they were in Delta or outside Edo South, they might be officially called king by now.

Even when Lagos monarchy was founded by Oba Orhogbua of Benin, it was meant as a dukedom, under Benin and that was in Benin view the case until 1861 when Britain took over Lagos with Eleko Dosunmu. Lagos rulers did not even use Oba title before then but Eleko.

In essence, in Benin view, Oba was not just a King title but also an emperor. Therefore, no other ruler believed to have allegiance to Benin would bear Oba title. Even if their Ogie title, due to influence and size of their domain, would equate to kingship. Obas of Benin were administratively very precise. Names, titles and all were well-controlled. They always figured out ways to outmanoeuvre the rising powers and influence of Benin High Aristocracy and areas considered Benin territory, whatever people now say of their history post-1897 and especially in current 9ja with rise of ethnic nationalism. It marvelled Europeans already from 1470s.

I have read numerous PG and doctoral theses on Benin History by researchers from across the world and its quite amazing what they reveal everyday. From Oba Palace Musicology to Palace Societies to Councillors of State.

As for how long Oba title has existed, it was in Benin before Eweka 1 Dynasty. We have exhausted the history of the title here over the years in many threads and posts.

Today, nobody is superior over anyone. It doesn't feed anyone. History just has be straight.

In my own enclave, we are expected to pay our homage to AKA (Bini) during a coronation of a new King or High chief (a practice that has long being abandoned).

No one is disputing the Oba's influences. His influences was never in question. We are only asking questions about the root of the word Oba because we can't seem to trace it in the Edoid lexicon.

Even if Oba was exclusively reserved for the emperor of Bini, there could have been reference to the word with the Edoid family. For example, the Urhobos refer to God as Oghene but Bini word for God (Osanobua) is very much traceable in several Urhobo dialects (Osonobrugwe/osolobrugue). This is validity of a word within a family group.

Also, why is it that only non-edoid group call their Kings Oba? Usen and even Iwere. These groups interchangeably call their kings Oba. Why are they comfortable with the Oba word?

1 Like

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by AutomaticMotors: 7:53pm On Feb 04, 2023
Efe I hate it when people say "Oba" is not in the Ediod Oral Lexicon ..... Do you know what "OmoNoBa" means in Edo? Efewestern
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by samuk: 8:20pm On Feb 04, 2023
Below is another perspective on Benin history. This seems to have make more sense. I believe 6 to 9 was manipulated in favour of Ife (Osun state) by Egharevba and Co.

FACTS ABOUT PA IDU

1. Pa Idu was born at Ogbe N’Alaka a place that eventually became the homestead of later Ogiso’s and Oba’s of Benin.
2. Pa Idu father was known as Ere (not to be mistaken as Ogiso Ere) he was the founder of Uhunmwundumwun (premier town), a place hundreds of years later Ogiso Ere moved the palace to from Ugbekun. Pa Idu father Ere, is where the ancient word Otamere (evening tide favored Ere) was created from.
3. Pa Idu is generally accepted as the Progenitor of the Benin race and all its descendants because the chroniclers of our remembered history, Ughoron; popularize his name above other native indigenes of which Idu came out from.
4. Pa Idu had three sons: Akka, Efa and Emehi. Efa and Emehi are the fathers of the modern day Benin population,
5. Through legitimacy of ancient ownership the Efa and Emehi families are the owners of Edo land as every other families came from them.
6. [b]Pa Idu died at Uhe(not to be mistaken as Ile-Ife) present day Igala areas of Kogi State and was referred to as Oghene N’Uhe by the earliest Benin natives, he was deified as a Priest King. The Chief priest and scepter bearer of the Oghene N’ Uhe shrine, Azama; followed Akka, Efa and Emehi back to Benin land and a replica of the shrine was built here in Benin land, the descendants of the Azama N’Uhe are the Oloton family of Benin and they are the custodian of the scepter of authority of Pa Idu carried by Azama and bequeathed to the descendants of Efa and Emehi.
7. Earliest Portuguese referred to Oghene N’Uhe(Pa Idu) as “Ogane” the great potentate of the interior.
8. All Ogisos starting from Ere to Oba Ewuare I all went on pilgrimage visit to pay respect to their progenitor at Uhe, a sort of confirmation and spiritual renewal ritual. A ritual also conducted by Ikaladerhan before he became a ruler in Ile-Ife.
9. When the later Oba’s of Benin discovered the complexity of the pilgrimage visit and the decline of the Uhe town they created “Erinmwidu” a replica of Oghene N’ Uhe Shrine and made it Royalty. Hence Erinmwidu is the royal deity of the Benin people.[/b]
10. Idusere, Idusogie, Idugbowa etc. reaffirm the Benin native ownership of Idu ideology hence Idu is Benin, Benin is Idu.

Let the legacies of Pa Idu be remembered by us all his children.
Pa Idu gha to kpere. Ise
Oba gha to kpere. Ise

Written by
Imasuen Amowie Izoduwa

2 Likes 1 Share

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by AutomaticMotors: 8:25pm On Feb 04, 2023
samuk:
Below is another perspective on Benin history. This seems to have make more sense.

FACTS ABOUT PA IDU

1. Pa Idu was born at Ogbe N’Alaka a place that eventually became the homestead of later Ogiso’s and Oba’s of Benin.
2. Pa Idu father was known as Ere (not to be mistaken as Ogiso Ere) he was the founder of Uhunmwundumwun (premier town), a place hundreds of years later Ogiso Ere moved the palace to from Ugbekun. Pa Idu father Ere, is where the ancient word Otamere (evening tide favored Ere) was created from.
3. Pa Idu is generally accepted as the Progenitor of the Benin race and all its descendants because the chroniclers of our remembered history, Ughoron; popularize his name above other native indigenes of which Idu came out from.
4. Pa Idu had three sons: Akka, Efa and Emehi. Efa and Emehi are the fathers of the modern day Benin population,
5. Through legitimacy of ancient ownership the Efa and Emehi families are the owners of Edo land as every other families came from them.
6. Pa Idu died at Uhe(not to be mistaken as Ile-Ife) present day Igala areas of Kogi State and was referred to as Oghene N’Uhe by the earliest Benin natives, he was deified as a Priest King. The Chief priest and scepter bearer of the Oghene N’ Uhe shrine, Azama; followed Akka, Efa and Emehi back to Benin land and a replica of the shrine was built here in Benin land, the descendants of the Azama N’Uhe are the Oloton family of Benin and they are the custodian of the scepter of authority of Pa Idu carried by Azama and bequeathed to the descendants of Efa and Emehi.
7. Earliest Portuguese referred to Oghene N’Uhe(Pa Idu) as “Ogane” the great potentate of the interior.

8. All Ogisos starting from Ere to Oba Ewuare I all went on pilgrimage visit to pay respect to their progenitor at Uhe, a sort of confirmation and spiritual renewal ritual. A ritual also conducted by Ikaladerhan before he became a ruler in Ile-Ife.
9. When the later Oba’s of Benin discovered the complexity of the pilgrimage visit and the decline of the Uhe town they created “Erinmwidu” a replica of Oghene N’ Uhe Shrine and made it Royalty. Hence Erinmwidu is the royal deity of the Benin people.
10. Idusere, Idusogie, Idugbowa etc. reaffirm the Benin native ownership of Idu ideology hence Idu is Benin, Benin is Idu.

Let the legacies of Pa Idu be remembered by us all his children.
Pa Idu gha to kpere. Ise
Oba gha to kpere. Ise

Written by
Imasuen Amowie Izoduwa

Bookmarked ⭐

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