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Benin-ife Relationship Explored - Culture (4) - Nairaland

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Reasons The Benin Ife Relationship Was A Lie Told By Royal Elite / The name benin and her origin Benin-ife Conspiracy / The Benin- Ife Myth Shouldn't Be Circulated Again Ever Again (2) (3) (4)

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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by samuk: 8:38pm On Feb 04, 2023
Still on Benin connection with Nupe-Igala Niger Benue confluence:

Excerpts Continue below...

DISTORTION NO. 1

The first distortion is that Àbùtù Ẹ̀jẹ̀ was the first Ata-Igalaa in history

This statement that Àbùtù Ẹ̀jẹ̀ was the first Ata-Igalaa ever is misleading, as Àbùtù Ẹ̀jẹ̀ (or his daughter, Ébúlẹẹ́jonú), belong to the Third Dynasty; that is, the ruling Jukun (or Apa) Dynasty, which, according to R. A. Sargent, commenced in 1687 AD, the same year the reign of the Bini Dynasty came to an end. The influx of the Jukuns, who had broken away from the Kwararafa Confederacy, occurred between 1597 AD and 1627 AD. At this time, the Aji Ata (or Bini) Dynasty, under which a total of six Bini-speaking Atas ruled, had forced itself on the Igala Kingdom in 1507 AD, forcing Ata Ọgáláà Eri to proceed on a sudden self-exile. It should also be noted that the Bini Dynasty was itself preceded by an earlier dynasty, the Ata Eri (or Igala) Dynasty. The findings of a 21-year research undertaken by the Catherine Acholonu International Research Centre, Abuja revealed that “Ata Eri was the ancestor and father of the Igalas and the founder of the still-surviving, ancient lineage of Atta Kings of the Igala nation.” Ata Ọgáláà Eri had succeeded Àtá Àtá-Ógwū, after whom the Àtá-Ógwū Hill (Ójúwó Átōgwu) on the outskirts of Ida town was named.

(ii) THE AJI-ATTAH (ATA) (OR BINI) DYNASTY

In the year, 1507, Ọba Ọ̀kpámẹ̀ Ọ̀zọ́luà of Benin ordered his son, Aji-Attah (Ata), to lead a segment of the Bini army against Ata Ọgáláà Erí at Ida, which prompted a sudden journey of the incumbent into self-exile, first, to the southern part of the Benue Basin, then later, to Nri in the present-day Anambra State. The Aji-Attah (or Benin) Dynasty, after one hundred and eighty years at Ida, was finally brought to an end by the influence of the Kwararafa traders-cum-warriors who were pouring into what, today, is referred to as the Igala Kingdom, which, according to Sargent and Miles Clifford, had been occupied by the “Okpoto tribesmen.”

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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by samuk: 8:42pm On Feb 04, 2023
DISTORTION NO. 2.

That Àtá Ayẹ̀gbà Ọma Ìdoko sacrificed his beloved daughter, Princess Íníkpi, as demanded by the spirits of the land, in the wake of the Igala-Benin War; while her sister, Ọ́modòkó, was sacrificed in respect of the Igala – Jukun War.

Íníkpi was buried alive at Ọ́gbẹ́gà as the Igala-Jukun War was looming. The war was eventually fought about the year, 1690 AD, at the twilight of 17th Century. By this time, the Igala-Benin War had been fought and lost about 174 years earlier, when Idoko, Ayegba’s father had not even been born. After the Apa War ended in Ayegba’s favour, he celebrated his victory by sacrificing three more of his daughters, namely: Ọ́modòkó (who was buried on the western bank of River Ínáchaló) as well as Ónojò Alíkáà and Ónojò Alẹ́gbẹ̄ who were both buried at two separate spots in Ídá town.

Distortion No. 3

That a Muslim occultist from Bebeji on the outskirts of Kano was the Mallam hired by Ayegba to perform some rites on the western bank of River Inachalo at Ida while the Jukun (Apa) invaders were camping at the opposite bank of the river.

Miles Clifford, a colonial officer who had carried out a research into the Apa War, states that a Nupe Mallam called Edegi was employed to perform the rite mentioned above and was responsible for Ayegba’s victory in the war. Overjoyed by that historic victory, Ata Ayegba betrothed one of his daughters named Ódó, to Mallam Edegi in addition to the huge financial reward the king had gratefully given him earlier. Mallam Edegi had thanked the king most profoundly and, together with his own followers, he rowed upstream of the Niger towards Rabba (in Nupeland). He finally settled down at a place he named Àbó-Idá (Ídá people), which, over time, changed to ‘Bídā,’ as it is still called to date.

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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by samuk: 8:47pm On Feb 04, 2023
Distortion No. 4

That the Igala Kingdom has never been defeated in any war in all of its history.

This statement is not true, as there are three or so recorded wars in which the Igalaa army was roundly defeated and had to beat a hasty retreat in each case. These are as follows:

The Benin Empires conquest and occupation of Igalaland in 1507 AD when the Igala army was no match for the more numerous soldiers of the Benin army
The Igala-Benin War of 1515-1516 AD; and
The Bassa Komo Rebellion in 1856 AD.
The first was the war led by a Benin Prince, Aji Attah (Ata) against Ata Ọgálá Eri in 1507. Robert Arthur Sargent, in his 1984 PhD Thesis, titled, Politics and Economics in the Benue Basin, reports that the Benin army had attacked, conquered and occupied the Igalaland to establish a Bini (or Aji Ata) Dynasty.

The second war in which the Igala troops were defeated was the Aji-Attah-Oba Esigie face-off – a war of two brothers having the same father – which early historians erroneously referred to-as the “gala-Benin War” of 1515-1516. Eight years after Aji Ata had conquered and seized the Ata’s throne and land, he mobilized the Kingdom’s army to fight and remove his brother, Oba Esigie who was installed in 1509 and take over the throne; but the Igala army was roundly defeated. While some settled at the present-day Ebu, near Asaba, others settled at Ibaji and Ilushi (Òjìgónó) area of Edo State.

Prince Okoliko, who later became the Ata-Igalaa between 1870 and 1876, had teamed up with a man named Ódomà Abáláká of the Òhiémi Ọ̀bọgọ Lineage to rustle the Bassa Komo camp at the present-day Ògwùmà on the bank of the River Benue when they were pouring into Igalaland in large numbers, fleeing from slave raiders, and were given refuge by Ata Aame Ocheje (1835 – 1856). Okoliko and Odoma had formed the habit of sneaking into the Bassa camp, stealing them and selling them into slavery. The victims sent word across to their kith and kin who mobilized a formidable force against their transgressors. In the war that ensued, the Igala army was driven into a mire and were killed in large numbers. Odoma and Okoliko narrowly escaped death, as their troops were mowed down by the aggrieved Bassa warriors.

A comprehensive account of the the Bassa Komo Rebellion, see the Postscript section of my book, titled, An Igala-English Lexicon, under the heading Odoma Abalaka (p. 619-620).

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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by AutomaticMotors: 9:01pm On Feb 04, 2023
Samuk Good work 👍
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by samuk: 9:08pm On Feb 04, 2023
AutomaticMotors:


Bookmarked ⭐

Benin history is vast. Benin was the dominant force, kingdom and empire in ancient times. Benin history extended into the east, west and middle belt.

1. There is Benin/ Nupe-Igala relationship and Igala traditions acknowledged Benin dynasty in Igala land and seems to agree with the Imaguero history of Benin.

2. Olaudah Equiano who is believe to be Ibo referenced Benin in his book written in the 1700s as being his Kingdom, which means his enclave in the East (Igbo land) acknowledged Benin kingdom as the dominant kingdom in the 1700s.

3. There is Benin Lagos relationship recorded by the Europeans in 1602.

4. The Benin/Ida war was recorded in history by the European.

There is absolutely nothing that linked Benin to Ife throughout history until after the fall of Benin empire.

People with very limited knowledge of Benin history tried to understand Benin history from their local interactions with the kingdom in the past. An Urhobo perspective is different from Ika perspective. Igala traditions of Benin is different from Lagos traditions and perspective of Benin.

Benin history is huge and expansive, it's not a local Usen/Urhonigbe affair.

The Benin/Ife connection story reduces Benin history to insignificant, this is why experts whose Europeans ancestors have documented Benin history over the centuries can not stomach the disservice done to it.

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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by AutomaticMotors: 9:14pm On Feb 04, 2023
samuk:


Benin history is vast. Benin was the dominant force, kingdom and empire in ancient times. Benin history extended into the east, west and middle belt.

1. There is Benin/ Nupe-Igala relationship and Igala traditions acknowledged Benin dynasty in Igala land and seems to agree with the Imaguero history of Benin.

2. Olaudah Equiano who is believe to be Ibo referenced Benin in his book written in the 1700s as being his Kingdom, which means his enclave in the East (Igbo land) acknowledged Benin kingdom as the dominant kingdom in the 1700s.

3. There is Benin Lagos relationship recorded by the Europeans in 1602.

4. The Benin/Ida war was recorded in history by the European.

There is absolutely nothing that linked Benin to Ife throughout history until after the fall of Benin empire.

People with very limited knowledge of Benin history tried to understand Benin history from their local interactions with the kingdom in the past. An Urhobo perspective is different from Ika perspective. Igala traditions of Benin is different from Lagos traditions and perspective of Benin.

Benin history is huge and expensive, it's not a local Usen/Urhonigbe affair.

The Benin/Ife connection story reduces Benin history to insignificant, this is why experts whose Europeans ancestors have documented Benin history over the centuries can not stomach the disservice done to it.

Benin Kingdom had not mates in the past, present or future!

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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by davidnazee: 9:18pm On Feb 04, 2023
scholes0:


Ife and Ughoton are in two completely opposite directions. Ughoton is due southwards directly facing the creeks.

Ife is due westwards into the thick West African jungle.

For example, after crown prince Iginuwa sone of Oba Oluwa who was supposed to rule was upstaged and an uncle (Uncle Ojoluwa) ruled in his stead, he went towards the creeks and settled amongst a Yoruboid people (The Itsekiri) whom he met there. He didn't for example, suddenly leave there and turn westwards. If Ekaladerhan would end up anywhere else outside Ughoton, common sense only demands that it would have been down in the creeks a boat stop away from Ughoton or refuge amongst the Urhobos immediately south who also have various traditions of fleeing Benin which they call 'Aka' at different times in history, not in faaar away Ife hundreds of Kilometers to the Northwest . How does a person end up in Ife from Ughoton in that age? Does the story even make sense to you? HIAN!


So you really think this your post makes sense? Why do you think it was impossible for him to go up west to ife? Few 100 kilometers is not far, Europeans traveled thousands of miles to Africa and around the world. Yorubas say Oduduwa traveled thousands of kilometers from middle east to ife.
Ekaladeran journeying to Ife is not an impossible trip.

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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by davidnazee: 9:19pm On Feb 04, 2023
UGBE634:
Na me go lecture am, the Oba is FOREIGN I have thrown a challenge to him, I am still waiting for him

What challenge did you throw? I don't want to waste my time with you since your mind is made up.
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by samuk: 9:24pm On Feb 04, 2023
AutomaticMotors:


Benin Kingdom had not mates in the past, present or future!


Until very recently the Benin people abdicated their responsibilities and allow others with ulterior motives to be writing our history. Various tribes are always in Benin doing all sorts of research to advance themselves. After Benin fell in 1897, various groups led by the yoruba started carving various aspects of the history for themselves. It was a scrabble..Whilst Eweka 2 was fighting to retain his father's stool, the yoruba with local collaborators were busy claiming the monarchy for themselves.

The saving grace is that the Europeans did a great job in documenting and archiving Benin history for over 400 years. Imagine if these archives were in Nigeria, they would have probably burned them down.

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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by AutomaticMotors: 9:48pm On Feb 04, 2023
samuk:


Until very recently the Benin people abdicated their responsibilities and allow others with ulterior motives to be writing our history. Various tribes are always in Benin doing all sorts of research to advance themselves. After Benin fell in 1897, various groups led by the yoruba started carving various aspects of the history for themselves. It was a scrabble..Whilst Eweka 2 was fighting to retain his father's stool, the yoruba with local collaborators was busy claiming the monarchy for themselves.

The saving grace is that the Europeans did a great job in documenting and archiving Benin history for over 400 years. Imagine if these archives were in Nigeria, they would have probably burned it down.

On God! The envy from mostly those south west elements is real!! The plotting, The Scheming ...all to eat from the ruins of our illustrious great empire .... Until they eat poison

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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by davidnazee: 10:02pm On Feb 04, 2023
scholes0:


Don't kid yourself here, it is a HUGE issue!
So it absolutely doesn't make sense to you that the Ujama could invite a non royal Edo 'stranger' to rule in Benin, but it makes perfect sense to you that the descendants of that same prestigious lineage that has supposedly existed for hundreds of years would suddenly Jettison the title of their reverred ancestors, one which they have always used in favour of a STRANGE title that has no meaning in their language.

Even the greeting of the entire pedigree of new rulers had to change from the previous Laiso/Delaiso to La'Ooni and later on, La-m'Ogun.

If only you were honest with yourself, you would know that the only force powerful enough to achieve this is that of DYNASTIC CHANGE to something different… i.e, To the current “House of Oranmiyan”

Your assumption of an invading force from Ife conquering Benin to impose a ruler would have been worth considering if indeed Ife was an Empire or powerful Kingdom. Tales and accounts of powerful Kingdoms and empire survives time but there is nothing about ife. Have you read any accounts/documents describing Ife as an empire or powerful Kingdom? Ife stories begins with Benin and revolves only around Benin.
My point is Ife was never an empire or a powerful Kingdom, it was almost non existence or a small hamlet with no significance and would not have been able to come to Igodomigodo or even fight Igodomigodo that was already a civilized and established society.

Ekaladeran's (known as Oduduwa) arrival at Ife is where ife's story begins and relationship with Igodomigodo..

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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by AreaFada2: 10:12pm On Feb 04, 2023
Efewestern:


In my own enclave, we are expected to pay our homage to AKA (Bini) during a coronation of a new King or High chief (a practice that has long being abandoned).

No one is disputing the Oba's influences. His influences was never in question. We are only asking questions about the root of the word Oba because we can't seem to trace it in the Edoid lexicon.

Even if Oba was exclusively reserved for the emperor of Bini, there could have been reference to the word with the Edoid family. For example, the Urhobos refer to God as Oghene but Bini word for God (Osanobua) is very much traceable in several Urhobo dialects (Osonobrugwe/osolobrugue). This is validity of a word within a family group.
[b]
Also, why is it that only non-edoid group call their Kings Oba? Usen and even Iwere. [/b]These groups interchangeably call their kings Oba. Why are they comfortable with the Oba word?

I already explained why. To say Usen and Iwerre are totally non-Edoid is wrong. When you consider how much Itsekhiri have mixed with Benin and Isiko/Urhobo and how much Benin has mixed with Usen. I know because aside Benin proper, I am closest to Usen, Iwerre and Eastern Yoruba. This interchangeability is recent, unless you can show me any pre-1800 evidence of being called Oba. Even, show me one pre-1897. Do you know why Olu of Itsekhiri position was suspended from 1856 to 1936 (no Olu for 80 years)? Do you know why Oba Akenzua II gave the grandfather of current Olu of Warri 14 beads to crown the next 14 Olus of Warri?

When the centuries old Portuguese-made crown was stolen last time, the current Olu relied on one of those 14 beads to do his coronation, not really the newly made crown publicly seen. Watch Olu's inauguration video. He said it himself.

Previously, each Ovie/Orodje came to Benin to buy his title. A three months journey to-and-fro to "buy Ovie". A very expensive and elaborate process of identifying the skull of the last Ovie in Benin. Some would-be ovies did not even survive the journey/rigour. I guess this may shock you to hear.

When the British invaded Benin and looted the palace, the skulls they saw were of prominent provincial rulers and defeated foreign rulers (like Deji of Akure in 1818). They were not sacrificial victims. grin grin cheesy

The whole body of work on these histories is an entirely massive subject of which most people who comment know less than 0.05%
If you have elderly people with good history knowledge, ask what going to Benin to "buy "Ovieship" meant. A Delta man in his 80s in about 1980 educated us about how they relate with Aka. Quite revealing. An average person from his tribe would totally dispute it today. The way Igbo today insult the Great Zik of Africa about the book he wrote in early 1970s revealing Onitsha history and its Benin origin. I mentioned rise of ethnic nationalism earlier. It grew steadily after Biafra War to what it is today.

The suspension of Oba's suzerainty over areas that Oba once held sway was a matter of Benin-British terms/pact of restoration of Benin Monarchy in 1914. For Oba to give up any rights of overlordship over areas outside what is now Edo South. Of course, many rulers outside Edo South still continued fulfilling ancient requirements stealthily for sometime. To cement their legitimacy since succession disputes were still decided in Benin.

Even now, many of those rulers still pay private visits (not the usual thank you visit that comes after coronation) to Oba of Benin in the period, knowing it is part of ancestral or ancient practice. Obi of Iselukwu openly did his to the Edaiken (His father Oba Erediauwa was indisposed at the time). Also in areas where succession disputes may occur, Oba's blessing is still valued, even prudent to have. The role of Oba of Benin in resolving the Dein of Agbor saga in late 1970s as he ascended the throne aged 2 was also clear. Things that are now being debated about Benin and Agbor history were not in question when Ben was aged 2. He was brought to Oba Palace before going to UK. Those of us old enough remember it well.

We see how the goal-post has gradually shifted since late 1970s. With a share of national cake at stake, people are quickly readjusting their position and history to prove "ancient difference and independence" from others. Any tribe that has now achieved a sizeable population is leveraging on it politically. Politics is a game of numbers.

Among all proper Edoid people, if you mentioned Oba back then, it meant only one personage: Oba of Benin. So no other related ruler would have assumed that title in the past. Elawure and Olu never used Oba title before. Even now, Elawure will never go to Benin and call himself Oba. He is Enogie. By the way, Elawure and Enogie of Utese are not the only so-called "non-edoid" Enogie in Edo South.

To truly understand history, one must do some own research. I have explained as much as I can. Or I will be repeating what I have done many times on NL before already about Oba title.

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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by samuk: 10:28pm On Feb 04, 2023
AreaFada2:


I already explained why. To say Usen and Iwerre are totally non-Edoid is wrong. When you consider how much Itsekhiri have mixed with Beni and Isiko/Urhobo and how much much Benin has mixed with Usen. I know because aside Benin proper, I am closest to Usen, Iwerre and Eastern Yoruba. This interchangeability is recent, unless you can show me any pre-1800 evidence of being called Oba. Even, show me one pre-1897. Do you know why Olu of Itsekhiri position was suspended from 1856 to 1936 (no Olu for 80 years)? Do you know why Oba Akenzua II gave the grandfather of current Olu of Warri 14 beads to crown the next 14 Olus of Warri?

When the centuries old Portuguese-made crown was stolen last time, the current Olu relied on one of those 14 beads to do his coronation, not really the newly made crown publicly seen. Watch Olu's inauguration video. He said it himself.

Previously, each Ovies/Orodjes came to Benin to buy their title. A three months journey to-and-fro to "buy Ovie". A very expensive and elaborate process of identifying the skull of the last Ovie in Benin. Some would-be ovie did not even survive the journey/rigour. I guess this may shock you to hear. When the British invade Benin and looted the palace, the skulls they saw were of prominent provincial rulers and defeated foreign rulers (like Deji of Akure in 1818. They were not sacrificial victims. grin grin cheesy

The whole body of work on these histories is entire massive subject of which people who comment know less than 0.05%
If you have elderly people with good history knowledge, ask what going to Benin to buy "Ovieship meant". A Delta man in his 80s in about 1980 educated us about how they relate with Aka. Quite revealing. An average person from his tribe would totally dispute it today. The way Igbo today insult the Great Zik of Africa about the book written in early 1970s revealing Onitsha history and Benin origin. I meant rise of ethnic nationalism earlier. It grew steadily after Biafra War to what it is today.

The suspension of Oba's suzerainty over areas that Oba once held sway was a matter of Benin-British terms/pact of restoration of Benin Monarchy in 1914. For Oba to give up any rights of overlordship over areas outside what is now Edo South. Of course, many rulers outside Edo South still continue doing ancient requirements stealthily for sometime. To cement their legitimacy since succession disputes were still decided in Benin.

Even now, many of those rulers still pay private visits (not the usual thank you visit that comes after coronation) to Oba of Benin in the period, knowing it is part of ancestral or ancient practice. Obi of Iselukwu openly did his to Edaiken (His father Oba Erediauwa was in indisposed). Also in areas where succession disputes may occur, Oba's blessing is still valued, even prudent to have. The role of Oba of Benin resolving the Dein of Agbor Saga in late 1970s as he ascended the throne aged 2 was also clear. What are now being debated about Benin and Agbor history were not in question when Ben was aged 2. He was brought to Oba Palace before going to UK. Those of us old enough remember it well.

We see how the goal-post has gradually shifted since late 1970s.

Among all proper Edoid people, if you mentioned Oba back then, it meant only one personage: Oba of Benin. So no other related ruler would have assumed that title in the past. Elawure and Olu never used Oba title before. Even now, Elawure will never go to Benin and call himself Oba. He is Enogie. By the way, Elawure and Enogie of Utese are not the only so-called "non-edoid" Enogie in Edo South.

To truly understand history, one must do some own research. I have explained as much as I can. Or I will be repeating what I have done many times on NL before already about Oba title.

Very elaborate. You did justice to the subject matter. Brilliant 👏

1 Like

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by samuk: 11:06pm On Feb 04, 2023
AutomaticMotors:
Samuk Good work 👍

Thanks
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by AutomaticMotors: 11:25pm On Feb 04, 2023
AreaFada2:


I already explained why. To say Usen and Iwerre are totally non-Edoid is wrong. When you consider how much Itsekhiri have mixed with Beni and Isiko/Urhobo and how much much Benin has mixed with Usen. I know because aside Benin proper, I am closest to Usen, Iwerre and Eastern Yoruba. This interchangeability is recent, unless you can show me any pre-1800 evidence of being called Oba. Even, show me one pre-1897. Do you know why Olu of Itsekhiri position was suspended from 1856 to 1936 (no Olu for 80 years)? Do you know why Oba Akenzua II gave the grandfather of current Olu of Warri 14 beads to crown the next 14 Olus of Warri?

When the centuries old Portuguese-made crown was stolen last time, the current Olu relied on one of those 14 beads to do his coronation, not really the newly made crown publicly seen. Watch Olu's inauguration video. He said it himself.

Previously, each Ovies/Orodjes came to Benin to buy their title. A three months journey to-and-fro to "buy Ovie". A very expensive and elaborate process of identifying the skull of the last Ovie in Benin. Some would-be ovie did not even survive the journey/rigour. I guess this may shock you to hear. When the British invade Benin and looted the palace, the skulls they saw were of prominent provincial rulers and defeated foreign rulers (like Deji of Akure in 1818. They were not sacrificial victims. grin grin cheesy

The whole body of work on these histories is entire massive subject of which people who comment know less than 0.05%
If you have elderly people with good history knowledge, ask what going to Benin to buy "Ovieship meant". A Delta man in his 80s in about 1980 educated us about how they relate with Aka. Quite revealing. An average person from his tribe would totally dispute it today. The way Igbo today insult the Great Zik of Africa about the book written in early 1970s revealing Onitsha history and Benin origin. I meant rise of ethnic nationalism earlier. It grew steadily after Biafra War to what it is today.

The suspension of Oba's suzerainty over areas that Oba once held sway was a matter of Benin-British terms/pact of restoration of Benin Monarchy in 1914. For Oba to give up any rights of overlordship over areas outside what is now Edo South. Of course, many rulers outside Edo South still continue doing ancient requirements stealthily for sometime. To cement their legitimacy since succession disputes were still decided in Benin.

Even now, many of those rulers still pay private visits (not the usual thank you visit that comes after coronation) to Oba of Benin in the period, knowing it is part of ancestral or ancient practice. Obi of Iselukwu openly did his to Edaiken (His father Oba Erediauwa was in indisposed). Also in areas where succession disputes may occur, Oba's blessing is still valued, even prudent to have. The role of Oba of Benin resolving the Dein of Agbor Saga in late 1970s as he ascended the throne aged 2 was also clear. What are now being debated about Benin and Agbor history were not in question when Ben was aged 2. He was brought to Oba Palace before going to UK. Those of us old enough remember it well.

We see how the goal-post has gradually shifted since late 1970s.

Among all proper Edoid people, if you mentioned Oba back then, it meant only one personage: Oba of Benin. So no other related ruler would have assumed that title in the past. Elawure and Olu never used Oba title before. Even now, Elawure will never go to Benin and call himself Oba. He is Enogie. By the way, Elawure and Enogie of Utese are not the only so-called "non-edoid" Enogie in Edo South.

To truly understand history, one must do some own research. I have explained as much as I can. Or I will be repeating what I have done many times on NL before already about Oba title.

Oba of Nairaland has spoken!! 👏👏👏👏
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by UGBE634: 3:52am On Feb 05, 2023
RedboneSmith:


Wow. Sir, what mischief is this? Why are you re-writing the words of the late A. F. C. Ryder? This intellectual dishonesty is not necessary na.

You took the words that the late historian wrote in his chapter "Benin Kingdom" in the book Groundwork of Nigerian History and you mangled it to say the opposite of what the historian wrote.

Ryder did not write that Benin sending for an alien (Yoruba) ruler was inherently implausible. These are Ryder's exact words: "...we seem to tread on firmer ground when we come to the traditions which recount in some detail how a number of Benin chiefs, rather than accept one of their own number as an hereditary ruler, sought a sovereign from the Yoruba dynasty ruling in Ife. There is nothing inherently implausible in this story". (page 110)

Yes, Ryder did say that next to nothing was know about the Yoruba at that early date, but a full quote illustrates that he was not heading to the conclusion that your mangled quote portrays. Ryder's words in full on page 112 of the same book:" What innovations the dynasty may have brought from its place of origin we cannot determine because next to nothing is known about the Yoruba peoples themselves at this early date. The essential innovation was presumably the monarchy itself: all the features that made the Benin kingship distinctive, and very different from the corresponding institutions in Yorubaland, seem to have emerged in later years when the dynasty must have become absorbed in Edo environment."

There is no doubt that Professor Ryder was a proponent of the "Out of Yorubaland" theory as regards the current Benin dynasty. There is nothing wrong with you holding a different opinion from this. But to wilfully distort a scholar's words is a hell of a desperate move. Not cool, bro.

"we seem to tread on firmer ground when we come to the traditions which recount in some detail how a number of Benin chiefs, rather than accept one of their own number as an hereditary ruler, sought a sovereign from the Yoruba dynasty ruling in Ife. There is nothing inherently implausible in this story"

For those who seem to have problem with comprehension, this is what he meant

"That we seem to be closer to the truth or we seem to have a more solid ground, if we stand on the tradition that some Benin chiefs went to Ife to get someone from the yoruba country rather than take one of their own as king. That there is nothing impossible in that story."

The second write up by ryder is this

What innovations the dynasty may have brought from its place of origin we cannot determine because next to nothing is known about the Yoruba peoples themselves at this early date. The essential innovation was presumably the monarchy itself: all the features that made the Benin kingship distinctive, and very different from the corresponding institutions in Yorubaland, seem to have emerged in later years when the dynasty must have become absorbed in Edo environment."

What this second write up means is this

What unique features, attributes, characteristics that this present ruling Oba's line brought from its place of Origin we cannot ascertain or really point out, because next to nothing is known about the Yoruba people at this early date.

But it seem strongly that the unique feature or characteristics seem to be the monarchy itself, and that the unique features noticed in the king of Benin vis-a-vis other yoruba kings that is used to argue non-relationship seem to have emerged in the ruling class of Benin after it must have become accustomed in its Edo environment in the latter years.

3 Likes

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by davidnazee: 4:58am On Feb 05, 2023
RedboneSmith:


Wow. Sir, what mischief is this? Why are you re-writing the words of the late A. F. C. Ryder? This intellectual dishonesty is not necessary na.

You took the words that the late historian wrote in his chapter "Benin Kingdom" in the book Groundwork of Nigerian History and you mangled it to say the opposite of what the historian wrote.

Ryder did not write that Benin sending for an alien (Yoruba) ruler was inherently implausible. These are Ryder's exact words: "...we seem to tread on firmer ground when we come to the traditions which recount in some detail how a number of Benin chiefs, rather than accept one of their own number as an hereditary ruler, sought a sovereign from the Yoruba dynasty ruling in Ife.

Yes, Ryder did say that next to nothing was know about the Yoruba at that early date, but a full quote illustrates that he was not heading to the conclusion that your mangled quote portrays. Ryder's words in full on page 112 of the same book:" What innovations the dynasty may have brought from its place of origin we cannot determine because next to nothing is known about the Yoruba peoples themselves at this early date. The essential innovation was presumably the monarchy itself: all the features that made the Benin kingship distinctive, and very different from the corresponding institutions in Yorubaland, seem to have emerged in later years when the dynasty must have become absorbed in Edo environment."

There is no doubt that Professor Ryder was a proponent of the "Out of Yorubaland" theory as regards the current Benin dynasty. There is nothing wrong with you holding a different opinion from this. But to wilfully distort a scholar's words is a hell of a desperate move. Not cool, bro.

Bro I guess you read Ryder's book backwards to come to your own interpretation of his work.
No where in his book did he advocate for an Ife origin for the Benin kingship, rather he believed we should look elsewhere for the origin of Benin Kingship because it was unreasonable to believe an already established society will look to Ife (an unknown place, great empires and kingdoms are known) for Kingship.

An the bolded above simply means after all study and research, there is absolutely no relationship/similarities between the Benin kingship and Yoruba kingship. How then can you claim an Ife origin for Benin kingship?

You can continue reading Ryder's work backwards.

1 Like

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by UGBE634: 5:03am On Feb 05, 2023
Efewestern:


In my own enclave, we are expected to pay our homage to AKA (Bini) during a coronation of a new King or High chief (a practice that has long being abandoned).

No one is disputing the Oba's influences. His influences was never in question. We are only asking questions about the root of the word Oba because we can't seem to trace it in the Edoid lexicon.

Even if Oba was exclusively reserved for the emperor of Bini, there could have been reference to the word with the Edoid family. For example, the Urhobos refer to God as Oghene but Bini word for God (Osanobua) is very much traceable in several Urhobo dialects (Osonobrugwe/osolobrugue). This is validity of a word within a family group.

Also, why is it that only non-edoid group call their Kings Oba? Usen and even Iwere. These groups interchangeably call their kings Oba. Why are they comfortable with the Oba word?
That the word "Oba" is not Edo is not what we should contest



These are the only set of persons that go with the Oba title in Edo state

They have something to do with yoruba or come outrightly from it.

Oba of Benin
Oba of Agbede
Oba-Oluogbe of Usen

Omo'n'Oba'n'Edo-

It literally translates to mean-

The one that is king over Edo

The etymology of the word Oba is in yoruba and not Edo, they usually tell you that the ba means light but the way it is pronounced suggest otherwise, the pronunciation of the ba is usually relaxed, it's not pronounced in a way to suggest light. There is no strong stress on the "ba"

Also the dating of Usen and Utesse royal line seem to tally with the Oba's dating

The Ososomaye juju that is obviously not Edo has been in the Oba's palace for centuries,

Sango, Orunmila and others, and their presence in Benin city seem to be tied to the Oba's emergence as king in Benin city, it is not coincidence. When you tie these points together, you might have gotten your answer

Also the republican system seems to be the norm for all Edo save for Benin who has an emperor moreso with an "Oba" title.

4 Likes

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by davidnazee: 5:31am On Feb 05, 2023
samuk:


Benin history is vast. Benin was the dominant force, kingdom and empire in ancient times. Benin history extended into the east, west and middle belt.

1. There is Benin/ Nupe-Igala relationship and Igala traditions acknowledged Benin dynasty in Igala land and seems to agree with the Imaguero history of Benin.

2. Olaudah Equiano who is believe to be Ibo referenced Benin in his book written in the 1700s as being his Kingdom, which means his enclave in the East (Igbo land) acknowledged Benin kingdom as the dominant kingdom in the 1700s.

3. There is Benin Lagos relationship recorded by the Europeans in 1602.

4. The Benin/Ida war was recorded in history by the European.

There is absolutely nothing that linked Benin to Ife throughout history until after the fall of Benin empire.

People with very limited knowledge of Benin history tried to understand Benin history from their local interactions with the kingdom in the past. An Urhobo perspective is different from Ika perspective. Igala traditions of Benin is different from Lagos traditions and perspective of Benin.

Benin history is huge and expansive, it's not a local Usen/Urhonigbe affair.

The Benin/Ife connection story reduces Benin history to insignificant, this is why experts whose Europeans ancestors have documented Benin history over the centuries can not stomach the disservice done to it.

Good work bro..
Even the European researchers doubt the Benin/Ife relationship being told by the Yorubas because from their own studies of the two people and their respective monarchies they find absolutely no similarities or even a little evidence to suggest the relationship might actually exist.
That is why in their books they always state that it was the Yorubas that said so and not from their reasearch.

2 Likes

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by UGBE634: 5:52am On Feb 05, 2023
samuk:
Below is another perspective on Benin history. This seems to have make more sense. I believe 6 to 9 was manipulated in favour of Ife (Osun state) by Egharevba and Co.

FACTS ABOUT PA IDU

1. Pa Idu was born at Ogbe N’Alaka a place that eventually became the homestead of later Ogiso’s and Oba’s of Benin.
2. Pa Idu father was known as Ere (not to be mistaken as Ogiso Ere) he was the founder of Uhunmwundumwun (premier town), a place hundreds of years later Ogiso Ere moved the palace to from Ugbekun. Pa Idu father Ere, is where the ancient word Otamere (evening tide favored Ere) was created from.
3. Pa Idu is generally accepted as the Progenitor of the Benin race and all its descendants because the chroniclers of our remembered history, Ughoron; popularize his name above other native indigenes of which Idu came out from.
4. Pa Idu had three sons: Akka, Efa and Emehi. Efa and Emehi are the fathers of the modern day Benin population,
5. Through legitimacy of ancient ownership the Efa and Emehi families are the owners of Edo land as every other families came from them.
6. [b]Pa Idu died at Uhe(not to be mistaken as Ile-Ife) present day Igala areas of Kogi State and was referred to as Oghene N’Uhe by the earliest Benin natives, he was deified as a Priest King. The Chief priest and scepter bearer of the Oghene N’ Uhe shrine, Azama; followed Akka, Efa and Emehi back to Benin land and a replica of the shrine was built here in Benin land, the descendants of the Azama N’Uhe are the Oloton family of Benin and they are the custodian of the scepter of authority of Pa Idu carried by Azama and bequeathed to the descendants of Efa and Emehi.
7. Earliest Portuguese referred to Oghene N’Uhe(Pa Idu) as “Ogane” the great potentate of the interior.
8. All Ogisos starting from Ere to Oba Ewuare I all went on pilgrimage visit to pay respect to their progenitor at Uhe, a sort of confirmation and spiritual renewal ritual. A ritual also conducted by Ikaladerhan before he became a ruler in Ile-Ife.
9. When the later Oba’s of Benin discovered the complexity of the pilgrimage visit and the decline of the Uhe town they created “Erinmwidu” a replica of Oghene N’ Uhe Shrine and made it Royalty. Hence Erinmwidu is the royal deity of the Benin people.[/b]
10. Idusere, Idusogie, Idugbowa etc. reaffirm the Benin native ownership of Idu ideology hence Idu is Benin, Benin is Idu.

Let the legacies of Pa Idu be remembered by us all his children.
Pa Idu gha to kpere. Ise
Oba gha to kpere. Ise

Written by
Imasuen Amowie Izoduwa
Idu is an Udo thing not a Benin thing, Benin as a city is too recent for the pa Idu story. The earliest of Binis lived in Udo. You cannot be attributing Udo glory to Benin. Check around you, it is common knowledge, everyone greeting La-Idu are from Udo.

It is also common knowledge that the first Ogisos lived in Udo going by Etsako and Urhobo narratives as against some Binis who would want to attribute Udo's glory to Benin. Udo is our oldest town by a mile, it is uncontested. The Eriwmin-Idu shrine in Udo is mightier than the one in Benin. That shows its root.

3 Likes

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by davidnazee: 5:54am On Feb 05, 2023
UGBE634:


"we seem to tread on firmer ground when we come to the traditions which recount in some detail how a number of Benin chiefs, rather than accept one of their own number as an hereditary ruler, sought a sovereign from the Yoruba dynasty ruling in Ife. There is nothing inherently implausible in this story"

For those who seem to have problem with comprehension, this is what he meant

"That we seem to be closer to the truth or we seem to have a more solid ground, if we stand on the tradition that some Benin chiefs went to Ife to get someone from the yoruba country rather than take one of their own as king. That there is nothing impossible in that story."

The second write up by ryder is this

What innovations the dynasty may have brought from its place of origin we cannot determine because next to nothing is known about the Yoruba peoples themselves at this early date. The essential innovation was presumably the monarchy itself: all the features that made the Benin kingship distinctive, and very different from the corresponding institutions in Yorubaland, seem to have emerged in later years when the dynasty must have become absorbed in Edo environment."

What this second write up means is this

What unique features, attributes, characteristics that this present ruling Oba's line brought from its place of Origin we cannot ascertain or really point out, because next to nothing is known about the Yoruba people at this early date.

But it seem strongly that the unique feature or characteristics seem to be the monarchy itself, and that the unique features noticed in the king of Benin vis-a-vis other yoruba kings that is used to argue non-relationship seem to have emerged in the ruling class of Benin after it must have become accustomed in its Edo environment in the latter years.

Lol.. Please stop confusing yourself further. This your interpretation will only give you f9.
when a researcher uses the phrase "it seems" it means he didn't find any evidence to make a factual conclusion.

And this second statement; "What innovations the dynasty may have brought from its place of origin we cannot determine because next to nothing is known about the Yoruba peoples themselves at this early date. The essential innovation was presumably the monarchy itself: all the features that made the Benin kingship distinctive, and very different from the corresponding institutions in Yorubaland, seem to have emerged in later years when the dynasty must have become absorbed in Edo environment."" simply mean that afterall studies he finds no similarities between Edo people and their monarchy against the Yorbuas and their monarchies. No single similarity, nothing for him to suggest indeed there was a relationship.

Go back to English class bro.

1 Like

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by UGBE634: 6:10am On Feb 05, 2023
davidnazee:


Lol.. Please stop confusing yourself further. This your interpretation will only give you f9.
when a researcher uses the phrase "it seems" it means he didn't find any evidence to make a factual conclusion.

And this second statement; "What innovations the dynasty may have brought from its place of origin we cannot determine because next to nothing is known about the Yoruba peoples themselves at this early date. The essential innovation was presumably the monarchy itself: all the features that made the Benin kingship distinctive, and very different from the corresponding institutions in Yorubaland, seem to have emerged in later years when the dynasty must have become absorbed in Edo environment."" simply mean that afterall studies he finds no similarities between Edo people and their monarchy against the Yorbuas and their monarchies. No single similarity, nothing for him to suggest indeed there was a relationship.

Go back to English class bro.
I seem to be above many of you in terms of IQ level and comprehension. What I wrote is there for anyone to see. I understand now that I should not be arguing with everyone on nairaland

5 Likes

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by Efewestern: 7:00am On Feb 05, 2023
AreaFada2:


I already explained why. To say Usen and Iwerre are totally non-Edoid is wrong. When you consider how much Itsekhiri have mixed with Benin and Isiko/Urhobo and how much Benin has mixed with Usen. I know because aside Benin proper, I am closest to Usen, Iwerre and Eastern Yoruba. This interchangeability is recent, unless you can show me any pre-1800 evidence of being called Oba. Even, show me one pre-1897. Do you know why Olu of Itsekhiri position was suspended from 1856 to 1936 (no Olu for 80 years)? Do you know why Oba Akenzua II gave the grandfather of current Olu of Warri 14 beads to crown the next 14 Olus of Warri?

When the centuries old Portuguese-made crown was stolen last time, the current Olu relied on one of those 14 beads to do his coronation, not really the newly made crown publicly seen. Watch Olu's inauguration video. He said it himself.

Previously, each Ovie/Orodje came to Benin to buy his title. A three months journey to-and-fro to "buy Ovie". A very expensive and elaborate process of identifying the skull of the last Ovie in Benin. Some would-be ovies did not even survive the journey/rigour. I guess this may shock you to hear.

When the British invaded Benin and looted the palace, the skulls they saw were of prominent provincial rulers and defeated foreign rulers (like Deji of Akure in 1818). They were not sacrificial victims. grin grin cheesy

The whole body of work on these histories is an entirely massive subject of which most people who comment know less than 0.05%
If you have elderly people with good history knowledge, ask what going to Benin to buy "Ovieship meant". A Delta man in his 80s in about 1980 educated us about how they relate with Aka. Quite revealing. An average person from his tribe would totally dispute it today. The way Igbo today insult the Great Zik of Africa about the book he wrote in early 1970s revealing Onitsha history and its Benin origin. I mentioned rise of ethnic nationalism earlier. It grew steadily after Biafra War to what it is today.

The suspension of Oba's suzerainty over areas that Oba once held sway was a matter of Benin-British terms/pact of restoration of Benin Monarchy in 1914. For Oba to give up any rights of overlordship over areas outside what is now Edo South. Of course, many rulers outside Edo South still continued fulfilling ancient requirements stealthily for sometime. To cement their legitimacy since succession disputes were still decided in Benin.

Even now, many of those rulers still pay private visits (not the usual thank you visit that comes after coronation) to Oba of Benin in the period, knowing it is part of ancestral or ancient practice. Obi of Iselukwu openly did his to the Edaiken (His father Oba Erediauwa was indisposed at the time). Also in areas where succession disputes may occur, Oba's blessing is still valued, even prudent to have. The role of Oba of Benin in resolving the Dein of Agbor saga in late 1970s as he ascended the throne aged 2 was also clear. Things that are now being debated about Benin and Agbor history were not in question when Ben was aged 2. He was brought to Oba Palace before going to UK. Those of us old enough remember it well.

We see how the goal-post has gradually shifted since late 1970s. With a share of national cake at stake, people are quickly readjusting their position and history to prove ancient difference and independence from others. Any tribe that has now achieved a sizeable population is leveraging on it politically. Politics is a game of numbers.

Among all proper Edoid people, if you mentioned Oba back then, it meant only one personage: Oba of Benin. So no other related ruler would have assumed that title in the past. Elawure and Olu never used Oba title before. Even now, Elawure will never go to Benin and call himself Oba. He is Enogie. By the way, Elawure and Enogie of Utese are not the only so-called "non-edoid" Enogie in Edo South.

To truly understand history, one must do some own research. I have explained as much as I can. Or I will be repeating what I have done many times on NL before already about Oba title.

Usen and Iwere may have mixed so well with their Edoid neighbors, but the core-fabric of these groups is Yoruboid. Bro, Oba is very pronounced the Iwere language. They use it in titles, proverbs and praise singing. You can't say it is a recent adaptation when the word has strong root in the language itself compared to Edo whose link we could barely establish.

Again, the Oba of Bini's supremacy doesn't validate the claims that Oba is an Edoid word. You keep stressing on the Oba's strength and influences. That's not what is on the table here. If smaller Bini-influenced groups like Iwere and Usen could interchangeably used the Oba title, then this invalidates your initial assertion that Oba was reserved only for the Bini emperor.

I may not be a linguistics, but I know it is hard for a word to just vanish from a mother language without any trace. Even lost Edo words like Okoro is still traceable within the Urhobo and Isoko dialects. If Oba was used pre-migration, then some few Edoid groups would have kept a trace of it. But surprisingly, only Yoruboid groups kept strings of the word. What does that tell you ?

You are very correct in some of your assertions. The Bini influences over related groups was very strong. You can't do anything pertaining royalty without informing the Oba. Even several external communities was under the direct rulership of the Oba. For example, the Oba was the one in charge of what is today known as Oghara. Urhobo grew in population and strength and some influences could no longer hold.

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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by Efewestern: 7:22am On Feb 05, 2023
UGBE634:
That the word "Oba" is not Edo is not what we should contest

These are the only set of persons that go with the Oba title in Edo state

They have something to do with yoruba or come outrightly from it.

Oba of Benin
Oba of Agbede
Oba-Oluogbe of Usen

Omo'n'Oba'n'Edo-

It literally translates to mean-

The one that is king over Edo

The etymology of the word Oba is in yoruba and not Edo, they usually tell you that the ba means light but the way it is pronounced suggest otherwise, the pronunciation of the ba is usually relaxed, it's not pronounced in a way to suggest light. There is no strong stress on the "ba"

Also the dating of Usen and Utesse royal line seem to tally with the Oba's dating

The Ososomaye juju that is obviously not Edo has been in the Oba's palace for centuries,

Sango, Orunmila and others, and their presence in Benin city seem to be tied to the Oba's emergence as king in Benin city, it is not coincidence. When you tie these points together, you might have gotten your answer

Also the republican system seems to be the norm for all Edo save for Benin who has an emperor moreso with an "Oba" title.

Exactly my point. Why is Oba only found in groups that share affinity with Yoruba? Why can't we find a trace in other pure Edoid groups ?

The supremacy of the Oba's isn't a enough to invalidate some observations. From what we can deduce: Ogie was once used by the Bini empire pre-migration.

Bini is the root. Before Ogie get accepted by all, then we can conclude that it was the right acceptable word for king before a major change in government.

Ogie isn't less than Oba. Both mean the same thing. Only that one is purely Edoid and the other...

@bolded, another valid observations. Most Edoid groups are republican. There's much to know about our past.

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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by RedboneSmith(m): 7:51am On Feb 05, 2023
davidnazee:


Bro I guess you read Ryder's book backwards to come to your own interpretation of his work.
No where in his book did he advocate for an Ife origin for the Benin kingship, rather he believed we should look elsewhere for the origin of Benin Kingship because it was unreasonable to believe an already established society will look to Ife (an unknown place, great empires and kingdoms are known) for Kingship.

An the bolded above simply means after all study and research, there is absolutely no relationship/similarities between the Benin kingship and Yoruba kingship. How then can you claim an Ife origin for Benin kingship?

You can continue reading Ryder's work backwards.

Nawa oh. The English that Ryder wrote is quite clear na. Why are you people reading something else there? 😳 It's rather weird.

Let me provide further quotes from that same chapter "The Benin Kingdom" written by AFC Ryder. It is chapter 6 in the book Groundwork of Nigerian History edited by Professor Obaro Ikime, for anyone who wants to check it out for themselves.

On page 110, Ryder wrote: "At the end of the 15th century, the first Portuguese visitors to Benin were told that the Ọba received investiture and regalia from a distant potentiate whom the Edo knew as Ogane; this 'suzerain' may have been the Oni of Ife. Before 1897 parts of the body of a dead Ọba were sent to Ife for burial. But although there are good grounds for accepting some ritual and dynastic relationship between Benin and Ife, exactly how it was established is hard to determine. "

Further down on page 112, after mentioning that Benin chiefs told Captain Roupell in 1898 that Benin people sent to Ife in the Yoruba country for a king and Eweka was sent to them, Ryder wrote this in conclusion: " The most that one can safely conclude from this evidence is that Eweka was probably the first Ọba to rule in Benin, and that he was probably of Yoruba origin, though not necessarily first-hand from Ife."

There are "maybes" and "probablys" in Ryder's submission, because, of course, when you're working with oral tradition (and even written evidence in some cases) there is nothing like 100% certainty. But it is clear from the chapter that you derived your initial misquote from that Ryder was actually leaning towards a Yoruba (if not specifically Ìfẹ́) origin for the Eweka Dynasty.

Let me reiterate that I do not necessarily agree or disagree with what Ryder had to say. I don't care one way or another. My entire point is simply: Don't misquote a scholar in order to make a point.

Also, I see a screenshot flying around from a paper Ryder wrote where he pointed to the Niger-Benue area. The screenshot comes from a paper Ryder wrote in 1965 called "A Reconsideration of Ife-Benin Relationship". The predominant view in Nigerian historiography until 1965 was that the Eweka Dynasty was of Yoruba (Ife) origin. In 1965, Ryder came up with an interesting new theory which he published in that paper. It was really interesting and sparked off a conversation in scholarly circles. JK Thornton building on that even wrote his own paper, where he argued that the Ogane was the Ata of Igala. In any case, both Ryder's and Thornton's theories never really caught on in academic circles. It even appears that Ryder himself came to question his theories later in his career, because in this chapter (that I have quoted and you have misquoted) that he wrote for the book Groundwork of Nigerian History in 1980, he did not mention his 1965 hypothesis at all, but seems to have reverted to the traditional orthodoxy of a Yoruba (even if not specifically Ife) origin for the Eweka Dynasty.

Peace. Happy Sunday ✌️

2 Likes

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by AreaFada2: 8:21am On Feb 05, 2023
Efewestern:


Usen and Iwere may have mixed so well with their Edoid neighbors, but the core-fabric of these groups is Yoruboid. Bro, Oba is very pronounced the Iwere language. They use it in titles, proverbs and praise singing. You can't say it is a recent adaptation when the word has strong root in the language itself compared to Edo whose link we could barely establish.

Again, the Oba of Bini's supremacy doesn't validate the claims that Oba is an Edoid word. You keep stressing on the Oba's strength and influences. That's not what is on the table here. If smaller Bini-influenced groups like Iwere and Usen could interchangeably used the Oba title, then this invalidates your initial assertion that Oba was reserved only for the Bini emperor.

I may not be a linguistics, but I know it is hard for a word to just vanish from a mother language without any trace. Even lost Edo words like Okoro is still traceable within the Urhobo and Isoko dialects. If Oba was used pre-migration, then some few Edoid groups would have kept a trace of it. But surprisingly, only Yoruboid groups kept strings of the word. What does that tell you ?

You are very correct in some of your assertions. The Bini influences over related groups was very strong. You can't do anything pertaining royalty without informing the Oba. Even several external communities was under the direct rulership of the Oba. For example, the Oba was the one in charge of what is today known as Oghara. Urhobo grew in population and strength and some influences could no longer hold.


Okoro is not lost in Benin o. Every Prince of Benin is called Okoro. You probably have to know more to be sure of these things first.

Crown Prince is Okoro n'Okhua. Okoro meant boy child initially but became Prince. I explained Okoro matter years ago here about how Oba Erediauwa was a student at Government College Ibadan, like 80 years ago. The chat between him and his British teacher. I believe I was replying to your post back then. I know at least 12 families with Okoro surname in Benin.
I still put it to you to show me any evidence of Olu of Warri using Oba title from 1800s. Remember, the Portuguese also documented Olu of Itsekhiri quite well. Show me Oba title in it.

I can tell you at least 20 Yoruba kings that never used Oba title until 100 years ago. Olubadan is one of them. Many were still "Baale". Not even yet king in status. Do you know how many Obas have been created or those elevated as Oba in last 50 years alone in Yorubaland? They all now have Oba title and praise name. It does not take long to be rooted. Just replace "Baale" in proverbs and songs with Oba. grin

Yes, power of Oba was important before 1897 because rulers in sphere of Benin influence could not just take Oba title like that. I have shown that even Yoruba rulers under Benin influence didn't even use Oba title. One cannot just wake up and use Awujale as a royal title. It is unique. Oba was unique to Edo. While it existed in Yoruba as "King" as some point, it never was individual appellation of a king. In a Western Region Traditional Rulers meeting in Benin in the 1940s, the register of attendees uniquely bore Oba of Benin as only Oba. Others were Ooni, Awujale, Alake, Alafin, etc. He was present but nothing like Oba Adesoji Aderemi was written. It was Ooni of Ife. Today, it would not be complete without writing The Ooni of Ife, Oba Adeyeye Ogunwusi.

Titles like Ojomo, Sagwe, Ero, Owangwe, Osere, Bajuaye and Sasere used in parts of Yorubaland now were adopted from Benin's Ezomo. Osague, Ero, Esere, Bazuaye and Iyase. You have them now in Ilesa and most of Eastern Yorubaland. In 100 years, people will swear that they are not from Benin. Even 50 years from now, people will not admit that the titles came from Benin. Others will argue that because they are so widespread in Yorubaland, it must have existed in Yorubaland long before coming to Benin. cheesy grin

But each title has unique story behind it in Benin.

Oliha, Edohen, Ero and Eholo were titles in Benin by 40BC already. Do you have all these titles in all Edoid Delta Aristocracy? You don't believe that some words and positions disappear if not used in separated languages? I know Iyase title exists in many Delta Edoid people but it is fairly young. Iyase was created in about 1255 AD by Oba Ewedo of Benin. The former 4 are way older. Being old doesn't mean all separated languages must have it.

The Benin/Edo Language I used to hear people speak growing up is different from the one I hear now. Never mind after 600 to 700 years of separation from Benin.

Before Oba Olua sent his son to Iwerre in 1480, there was no high-ranking ruler there. How can Oba already documented by Europeans then become less rooted in Benin than in Iwerre? shocked

I write my epistles because of silent readers and posterity.

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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by samuk: 9:11am On Feb 05, 2023
AreaFada2:


Okoro is not lost in Benin o. Every Prince of Benin is called Okoro.
Crown Prince is Okoro n'Okhua. Okoro meant boy child initially but became Prince. I explained Okoro matter years ago here about how Oba Erediauwa was a student at Government College Ibadan, like 80 years ago. The chat between him and his British teacher. I believe I was replying to your post back then. I know at least 12 families with Okoro surname in Benin.
I still put it to you to show me any evidence of Olu of Warri using Oba title from 1800s. Remember, the Portuguese also documented Olu of Itsekhiri quite well. Show me Oba title in it.

I can tell you at least 20 Yoruba kings that never used Oba title until 100 years ago. Olubadan is one of them. Many were still "Baale". Not even yet king in status. Do you know how many Obas have been created or those elevated as Oba in last 50 years alone in Yorubaland. They all now have Oba title and praise name. It does not take long to be rooted. Just replace "Baale" in proverb with Oba. grin
Yes, power of Oba was important before 1897 is important before others in sphere of Benin influence could not just take Oba title like that. I have shown that even Yoruba rulers under Benin influence didn't even use Oba title.

Titles like Ojomo, Sagwe, Ero, Owangwe, Osere, Bajuaye and Sasere used in Yorubaland were adopted from Benin's Ezomo. Osague, Ero, Esere, Bazuaye and Iyase. You have them now in Ilesa and most of Eastern Yorubaland. In 100 years, people will swear that that they are not from Benin.


Ero, Oliha, Edohen, and Eholo were in Benin by 40BC. Do you have all these titles in all Delta Aristocracy? You don't believe that some words disappear if not used in separated languages?

The Benin/Edo Language I used to hear people speak growing up is different from the one I hear now. Never mind after 600 to 700 years.

It's the yoruba and other group that copied from Benin as you have just explained. As of today, no one is disputing the Benin Origin of the titles you just mentioned but don't be surprised when the story changes in another 100 years. The confusion with the Oba title is because whilst it was restricted to the Oba of Benin for centuries, the yoruba have domesticated and popularize it in the last 50 years, that it's Benin origin is now in doubt amongst some.

The reason scholars such as Ryder had difficulties with the Benin/Ife connection was because the two dynasty and artistic culture were very different from the material evidences they studied.

Benin as a center of culture and a melting pot have changed and continues to change over the centuries because of the exchange of cultures between various groups within the city. People from the hinterland such as Ugo, Urhonigbe whose culture have remained largely unchanged for centuries may confused the amalgamation of cultures in Benin city as foreign to them.

This confusion is why some is ascribing the origin of obaship to yoruba because the title is now shared between Benin and Yoruba. I am sure none of these guys can point to Ife monarch using the Oba title until recently, how can people argue that Benin got the Oba title from Ife when history cannot show us evidence of kingship in Ife until recently.

At best the Ooni was said to be a chief priest and the spiritual leader of the yoruba people, not the King. It was the Alaafin that the Europeans met on ground in 1824 as the king of the yoruba people, he was also the one that signed the treaty with the British on behalf of his yoruba people.

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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by davidnazee: 9:36am On Feb 05, 2023
RedboneSmith:


Nawa oh. The English that Ryder wrote is quite clear na. Why are you people reading something else there? 😳 It's rather weird.

Let me provide further quotes from that same chapter "The Benin Kingdom" written by AFC Ryder. It is chapter 6 in the book Groundwork of Nigerian History edited by Professor Obaro Ikime, for anyone who wants to check it out for themselves.

On page 110, Ryder wrote: "At the end of the 15th century, the first Portuguese visitors to Benin were told that the Ọba received investiture and regalia from a distant potentiate whom the Edo knew as Ogane; this 'suzerain' may have been the Oni of Ife. Before 1897 parts of the body of a dead Ọba were sent to Ife for burial. But although there are good grounds for accepting some ritual and dynastic relationship between Benin and Ife, exactly how it was established is hard to determine. "

Further down on page 112, after mentioning that Benin chiefs told Captain Roupell in 1898 that Benin people sent to Ife in the Yoruba country for a king and Eweka was sent to them, Ryder wrote this in conclusion: " The most that one can safely conclude from this evidence is that Eweka was probably the first Ọba to rule in Benin, and that he was probably of Yoruba origin, though not necessarily first-hand from Ife."

There are "maybes" and "probablys" in Ryder's submission, because, of course, when you're working with oral tradition (and even written evidence in some cases) there is nothing like 100% certainty. But it is clear from the chapter that you derived your initial misquote from that Ryder was actually leaning towards a Yoruba (if not specifically Ìfẹ́) origin for the Eweka Dynasty.

Let me reiterate that I do not necessarily agree or disagree with what Ryder had to say. I don't care one way or another. My entire point is simply: Don't misquote a scholar in order to make a point.

Also, I see a screenshot flying around from a paper Ryder wrote where he pointed to the Niger-Benue area. The screenshot comes from a paper Ryder wrote in 1965 called "A Reconsideration of Ife-Benin Relationship". The predominant view in Nigerian historiography until 1965 was that the Eweka Dynasty was of Yoruba (Ife) origin. In 1965, Ryder came up with an interesting new theory which he published in that paper. It was really interesting and sparked off a conversation in scholarly circles. JK Thornton building on that even wrote his own paper, where he argued that the Ogane was the Ata of Igala. In any case, both Ryder's and Thornton's theories never really caught on in academic circles. It even appears that Ryder himself came to question his theories later in his career, because in this chapter (that I have quoted and you have misquoted) that he wrote for the book Groundwork of Nigerian History in 1980, he did not mention his 1965 hypothesis at all, but seems to have reverted to the traditional orthodoxy of a Yoruba (even if not specifically Ife) origin for the Eweka Dynasty.

Peace. Happy Sunday ✌️

You have more sense than that Ugbe boy, but your post once again is full of assumptions. we don't learn about history using assumptions or unfounded claims by one group. And I can see you are only picking pages from Ryder's work that suits your narrative. However Ryder's work was never about advocating and proving an Ife/Benin relationship but instead it was about all the inconsistencies and different narratives about the supposed relationship, and He cast a doubt wether such relationship existed.

When the Portugese wrote about Ogane, they could as well have said Ife or whatever name it was known by at that time. The Portugese in their writings mentioned names of places they visited and also names of places the natives told them existed even if the Portugese never saw those places, yet Ife wasn't mentioned anywhere because it didn't exist or had no significance to Benin.

No chiefs ever told Captain Roupell in 1897 about Ife sending a ruler to Benin. Roupell only wrote about a tale he heard of an Eweka coming to Benin. He never mentioned he came from Ife.

Ryder also mention a research done in 1830 by a European on Benin history. He said the eurpoean was told about a white man who came over the great water being the founder of Benin monarchy. My point and Ryder's point here is that even in 1830 Ife wasn't mentioned.

I am not misquoting Ryder's work, it is you that do not understand the purpose of Ryder's work.

Happy Sunday to you too.
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by UGBE634: 9:45am On Feb 05, 2023
davidnazee:


You have more sense than that Ugbe boy, but your post once again is full of assumptions. we don't learn about history using assumptions or unfounded claims by one group. And I can see you are only picking pages from Ryder's work that suits your narrative. However Ryder's work was never about advocating and proving an Ife/Benin relationship but instead it was about all the inconsistencies and different narratives about the supposed relationship, and He cast a doubt wether such relationship existed.

When the Portugese wrote about Ogane, they could as well have said Ife or whatever name it was known by at that time. The Portugese in their writings mentioned names of places they visited and also names of places the natives told them existed even if the Portugese never saw those places, yet Ife wasn't mentioned anywhere because it didn't exist or had no significance to Benin.

No chiefs ever told Captain Roupell in 1897 about Ife sending a ruler to Benin. Roupell only wrote about a tale he heard of an Eweka coming to Benin. He never mentioned he came from Ife.

Ryder also mention a research done in 1830 by a European on Benin history. He said the eurpoean was told about a white man who came over the great water being the founder of Benin monarchy. My point and Ryder's point here is that even in 1830 Ife wasn't mentioned.

I am not misquoting Ryder's work, it is you that do not understand the purpose of Ryder's work.

Happy Sunday to you too.

because I am not following your school of thought, go and reread my post and see your initial fuckup, we are not mate. I had rated you more than this, you are giving the gregyboy vibe

It's like you went to Auchi too, I have emboldened the "seem" in my own interpretation in case you are sight-deficient

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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by AutomaticMotors: 9:54am On Feb 05, 2023
AreaFada2:


Okoro is not lost in Benin o. Every Prince of Benin is called Okoro. You probably have to know more to be sure of these things first.

Crown Prince is Okoro n'Okhua. Okoro meant boy child initially but became Prince. I explained Okoro matter years ago here about how Oba Erediauwa was a student at Government College Ibadan, like 80 years ago. The chat between him and his British teacher. I believe I was replying to your post back then. I know at least 12 families with Okoro surname in Benin.
I still put it to you to show me any evidence of Olu of Warri using Oba title from 1800s. Remember, the Portuguese also documented Olu of Itsekhiri quite well. Show me Oba title in it.

I can tell you at least 20 Yoruba kings that never used Oba title until 100 years ago. Olubadan is one of them. Many were still "Baale". Not even yet king in status. Do you know how many Obas have been created or those elevated as Oba in last 50 years alone in Yorubaland? They all now have Oba title and praise name. It does not take long to be rooted. Just replace "Baale" in proverbs and songs with Oba. grin

Yes, power of Oba was important before 1897 because rulers in sphere of Benin influence could not just take Oba title like that. I have shown that even Yoruba rulers under Benin influence didn't even use Oba title. One cannot just wake up and use Awujale as a royal title. It is unique. Oba was unique to Edo. While it existed in Yoruba as "King" as some point, it never was individual appellation of a king. In a Western Region Traditional Rulers meeting in Benin in the 1940s, the register of attendees uniquely bore Oba of Benin as only Oba. Others were Ooni, Awujale, Alake, Alafin, etc. He was present but nothing like Oba Adesoji Aderemi was written. It was Ooni of Ife. Today, it would not be complete without writing The Ooni of Ife, Oba Adeyeye Ogunwusi.

Titles like Ojomo, Sagwe, Ero, Owangwe, Osere, Bajuaye and Sasere used in parts of Yorubaland now were adopted from Benin's Ezomo. Osague, Ero, Esere, Bazuaye and Iyase. You have them now in Ilesa and most of Eastern Yorubaland. In 100 years, people will swear that they are not from Benin. Even 50 years from now, people will not admit that the titles came from Benin. Others will argue that because they are so widespread in Yorubaland, it must have existed in Yorubaland long before coming to Benin. cheesy grin

But each title has unique story behind it in Benin.

Oliha, Edohen, Ero and Eholo were titles in Benin by 40BC already. Do you have all these titles in all Edoid Delta Aristocracy? You don't believe that some words and positions disappear if not used in separated languages? I know Iyase title exists in many Delta Edoid people but it is fairly young. Iyase was created in about 1255 AD by Oba Ewedo of Benin. The former 4 are way older. Being old doesn't mean all separated languages must have it.

The Benin/Edo Language I used to hear people speak growing up is different from the one I hear now. Never mind after 600 to 700 years of separation from Benin.

Before Oba Olua sent his son to Iwerre in 1480, there was no high-ranking ruler there. How can Oba already documented by Europeans then become less rooted in Benin than in Iwerre? shocked

I write my epistles because of silent readers and posterity.

⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by samuk: 10:29am On Feb 05, 2023
,
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by samuk: 10:31am On Feb 05, 2023
UGBE634:
how do we now explain the Oba title and the strange gods? Can we settle for the fact that the Oba must have been an "Ekue"

Oba is Benin in Origin. Even if you were to be right in a long stretch, it's still not enough evidence that the oba of Benin is yoruba.

Today more than half of yoruba monarchs share affinity with Islamic religion, some have even adopted Islamic names and titles, does this now mean that they were no longer yoruba in origin?

In the past Oba of Benin seek the best medicine men across the land, there was no place that was too far. Benin was heavily involved in Africa religious practices and renowned native doctors and practitioners of Africa religion were invited to Benin, sometimes to the palace. Any contribution from these various tribes, Ibo, Yoruba etc, doesn't change the Benin Origin of the Oba.

If you argue that the Oba of Benin is from Ife and his title is of yoruba origin, you have to show that Ife had monarchs in the 1500s.

Don't also forget that Easter yoruba was under the cultural influence of Benin for centuries and they copied the Benin style of monarchy and not the other way round.

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