Dybala11:

That scenario is wrong nao, selling old notes for new is all shades of wrong. What I meant by my question is that POS agents help to do transaction in the same currency and they get paid for that e.g Say I want to withdraw money from my account, if I place a withdrawal of 10k at a POS terminal of course the POS agent will deduct some token from the 10k. That's like giving in 10k to get say 9,500.

That can be categorized as the cost of service rendered. Although it is expensive, one can only imagine the stress the POS agent also went through to get those cash. The POS agents are ordinary Nigerians like me and you. They don't own a bank nor do they print the money. It is well, may the Lord help our country.

izaq:


That can be categorized as the cost of service rendered. Although it is expensive, one can only imagine the stress the POS agent also went through to get those cash. The POS agents are ordinary Nigerians like me and you. They don't own a bank nor do they print the money. It is well, may the Lord help our country.

Amen o, cos only God can save this country like this. Money is scarce, fuel is scarce and highly expensive, the financial life of many average Nigerians is at a standstill.

izaq:


Okay let me help you understand. If you go to a bank or a POS merchant, are you going there to exchange your Naira (pre naira swapping period) or going to seek the use of a service. Services in the case of a POS merchant could be helping you to send funds to your account or that of another person or withdrawing funds from your account. In the case of banks, well you can imagine that yourself. If collects charges for using their services it doesn't equate to trading same currency.

Pls, we all need to be educated and embrace what is called "cultural relativisms". Muslims should respect the religion of others, and others should respect Islam as well.

This is a quote from the OP:
‘ But when the deal is concerning the same type of currency, such as selling one dollar for two dollars, that is not permissible because it is a type of riba.’

Any deal that involves me getting less or more than my monetary investment is riba.

A POS merchant collects funds from my bank account and gives me an amount lesser than the amount he has collected. That is riba according to this definition.

A bank collects cash from me as deposits but gives me access to a lesser amount. That too is riba.

Any deal (including services) should return my exact amount to me else it turns into riba.

That is the clear interpretation from the OP’s post.

Even in islamic banking, it is seen as riba to collect interest (which is a service charge for lending out) so your justification holds no water.

In relation to cultural relativism, i am using islam to explain islam and not using another culture. If islam says something is riba, why are you trying to say itnis not riba?

Bintabisiriyu2:
Muslims are fools, one day fucking your wife would be prohibited, then your foolish imam can now secretly bang her for you

How so? There are foolish people everywhere and in every religion. The other day a pastor recommended 30 or 60 days of fasting for his followers and also told the married among them not to have sex within that period.

I don't understand his reasoning may you can be of help. What I know is it okay to abstain from food and drink and even sex in the recommended days. What of the evening when you break your fast, when you eat and drink. Can't you have sex with your wife at that time too?

truthCoder:


This is a quote from the OP:
‘ But when the deal is concerning the same type of currency, such as selling one dollar for two dollars, that is not permissible because it is a type of riba.’

Any deal that involves me getting less or more than my monetary investment is riba.

A POS merchant collects funds from my bank account and gives me an amount lesser than the amount he has collected. That is riba according to this definition.

A bank collects cash from me as deposits but gives me access to a lesser amount. That too is riba.

Any deal (including services) should return my exact amount to me else it turns into riba.

That is the clear interpretation from the OP’s post.

Even in islamic banking, it is seen as riba to collect interest (which is a service charge for lending out) so your justification holds no water.

In relation to cultural relativism, i am using islam to explain islam and not using another culture. If islam says something is riba, why are you trying to say itnis not riba?

You get it wrong in my opinion, like you said the POS merchant withdraws for you or whatever thing they do. it is a service, not a trade. They helped you to withdraw with the POS machine. That's a service, my respected friend.

truthCoder:
lol

I deposit 50k into my Nigerian bank account, they charge me different charges. At the end of the day, i am able to only access 49,800.

This happens in islamic banks too as bank charges in the grouse of sms alerts, stamp duties, maintenance charges, atm withdrawal charges etc are all general.

Banks are business organization and people create them to make profit. So these charges are allowed as they are money collected for providing a service. Same with a person who does ajo, he/she would collect a percentage for providing a service to you.
Islam is not against this, what Islam is against is interest rate collected from paying loans.

Also on the concept of 'hand-to-hand', permit to explain if the MD of the banks must be the person to hand over the cash to all customers or the ATM machine (which was not existing when your assumptions were made)?

How do you plan on handing over BTC and USDT 'hand-to-hand'? I am sure your founders never imagined a day would come when money would become virtual.

Cheers

Using hand to hand there doesn't literally mean that there has to be physical contact but what it means is that the bank manager shouldn't ask me to pay more to get the new note.

Like I said earlier, trading doesn't have to be done in physical contact but that doesn't mean that you are to cheat or add interest to what you are trading.

For example if I want to get BTC, I should get it for the price it is worth in the market with my USDT, if the seller is adding interest, then it is haram. same way I should get yhe price of dollars for what it is worth in the market.

truthCoder:
lol

I deposit 50k into my Nigerian bank account, they charge me different charges. At the end of the day, i am able to only access 49,800.

This happens in islamic banks too as bank charges in the grouse of sms alerts, stamp duties, maintenance charges, atm withdrawal charges etc are all general.

Banks are business organization and people create them to make profit. So these charges are allowed as they are money collected for providing a service. Same with a person who does ajo, he/she would collect a percentage for providing a service to you.
Islam is not against this, what Islam is against is interest rate collected from paying loans.

Also on the concept of 'hand-to-hand', permit to explain if the MD of the banks must be the person to hand over the cash to all customers or the ATM machine (which was not existing when your assumptions were made)?

How do you plan on handing over BTC and USDT 'hand-to-hand'? I am sure your founders never imagined a day would come when money would become virtual.

Cheers

Using hand to hand there doesn't literally mean that there has to be physical contact but what it means is that the bank manager shouldn't ask me to pay more to get the new note.

Like I said earlier, trading doesn't have to be done in physical contact but that doesn't mean that you are to cheat or add interest to what you are trading.

For example if I want to get BTC, I should get it for the price it is worth in the market with my USDT, if the seller is adding interest, then it is haram. same way I should get yhe price of dollars for what it is worth in the market.

This is the little I know.

For example if I want to get BTC, I should get it for the price it is worth in the market with my USDT, if the seller is adding interest, then it is haram. same way I should get yhe price of dollars for what it is worth in the market.

This is the little I know.[/quote]

You have spoken well, except here. Look the hadith said like for like, USDT and BTC aren't the same. So it is okay if a seller want to sell at his or her price so far you are not forced to buy from him or her. Please read the hadith again.

Also the concept of hand-to-hand is a subject for possession like you explained. So far the possession of the traded items have changed from the seller to the buyer and vice verse.

This is my understanding of the subject matter

3ple9iner:

Banks are business organization and people create them to make profit. So these charges are allowed as they are money collected for providing a service. Same with a person who does ajo, he/she would collect a percentage for providing a service to you.
Islam is not against this, what Islam is against is interest rate collected from paying loans.



Using hand to hand there doesn't literally mean that there has to be physical contact but what it means is that the bank manager shouldn't ask me to pay more to get the new note.

Like I said earlier, trading doesn't have to be done in physical contact but that doesn't mean that you are to cheat or add interest to what you are trading.

For example if I want to get BTC, I should get it for the price it is worth in the market with my USDT, if the seller is adding interest, then it is haram. same way I should get yhe price of dollars for what it is worth in the market.

This is the little I know.

A bank must not charge interest or service fees if they follow this principles.

Islamic banking was set up to go provide an alternative to the status quo although its concepts are at best deceptive in that they dont charge interest via percentages but charge fees on profits.

Anybody who charges any extra on same currency is haram based on this concept.

If you give a bank 1m, the bank must give you 1m back. No charges whatsoever. Any charge reduces your 1m and is therefore haram.

BTC or USDT withdrawals involves transaction costs and this is technically haram if we follow this concepts.

We cannot call some items haram and try to excuse others especially when they are both similar in parameters

izaq:


You get it wrong in my opinion, like you said the POS merchant withdraws for you or whatever thing they do. it is a service, not a trade. They helped you to withdraw with the POS machine. That's a service, my respected friend.

Semantics aside, any exchange is both a service and a trade.

Anything that involves you giving value for another value is a trade and this occurs in a POS transaction.

You give the person a credit into their account and they in return give you physical cash.

Following this laws, they should not charge you anything extra.

Any extra charge is an haram/riba

truthCoder:


A bank must not charge interest or service fees if they follow this principles.

Islamic banking was set up to go provide an alternative to the status quo although its concepts are at best deceptive in that they dont charge interest via percentages but charge fees on profits.

Anybody who charges any extra on same currency is haram based on this concept.

If you give a bank 1m, the bank must give you 1m back. No charges whatsoever. Any charge reduces your 1m and is therefore haram.

BTC or USDT withdrawals involves transaction costs and this is technically haram if we follow this concepts.

We cannot call some items haram and try to excuse others especially when they are both similar in parameters

Yes collecting extra charges for same currency is haram, I never doubted that but collecting charges for performing transactions is halal. These are two different things one is me providing a service to you which I have to be paid for while the other is me trading same currency with you which is haram.

The difference between conventional banks and Islamic banks is that while the conventional banks make money through interest Islamic banks makes money through investment in asset and also the share of profit and loss.

truthCoder:


Semantics aside, any exchange is both a service and a trade.

Anything that involves you giving value for another value is a trade and this occurs in a POS transaction.

You give the person a credit into their account and they in return give you physical cash.

Following this laws, they should not charge you anything extra.

Any extra charge is an haram/riba

You are confusing the words trade and providing service. If you want me to help you go withdrawal money from your account and I ask for money, would you also call this riba or me taking interest?

When you go to get dollar from banks you say you want to buy dollars right? but do you tell POS people you want to buy naira?

These are two different things and you should stop misusing them.

3ple9iner:

You are confusing the words trade and providing service. If you want me to help you go withdrawal money from your account and I ask for money, would you also call this riba or me taking interest?

When you go to get dollar from banks you say you want to buy dollars right? but do you tell POS people you want to buy naira?

These are two different things and you should stop misusing them.

No i am not.

In this context, the semantical differences don’t matter.

If naira is to be exchanged for naira, it should not be done for profit.

The only profit allowed is when you are changing from naira to another currency.

Any other attempt at reinterpreting this interpretation is just a deception.

Attempts at reimagining meanings to simple texts always amuse me.

3ple9iner:

Yes collecting extra charges for same currency is haram, I never doubted that but collecting charges for performing transactions is halal. These are two different things one is me providing a service to you which I have to be paid for while the other is me trading same currency with you which is haram.

The difference between conventional banks and Islamic banks is that while the conventional banks make money through interest Islamic banks makes money through investment in asset and also the share of profit and loss.

In the context of this text, a conventional bank commits haram by charging anything to give me value on the same currency.

The invention of islamic banking wherein they claim to charge on profits instead of on interest has been subjected to scholarly review by finance experts and found to be the same way of calling six or half a dozen. If you take any charge whatsoever for lending me money, it is interest, irrespective of what the lender chooses to call the arrangement

truthCoder:


In the context of this text, a conventional bank commits haram by charging anything to give me value on the same currency.

The invention of islamic banking wherein they claim to charge on profits instead of on interest has been subjected to scholarly review by finance experts and found to be the same way of calling six or half a dozen. If you take any charge whatsoever for lending me money, it is interest, irrespective of what the lender chooses to call the arrangement

I don't understand you oo keeping money in bank is different from asking for a loan and I don't see reason why bank collecting charges for providing a service which is keeping your money haram.

3ple9iner:

I don't understand you oo keeping money in bank is different from asking for a loan and I don't see reason why bank collecting charges for providing a service which is keeping your money haram.

Did you read the OP’s post at all?

If you give me 1 naira, i must give you 1 naira back. Anything different is haram.

How is this hard to understand?

Rashduct4luv:


We ask Allah to guide our leaders and us aright!
We ask Allah to give us the best of the incoming ones who would benefit us most in this world and in the next!

Thanks

Truetalkisreal:
that means all POS operators are sinners 😅 funny people

POS operators are not sinners. Don't get it twisted.
POS operators render mini banking services, it's halal for them to charge Cost of Service.

But selling money, the same denomination, at a fee, is haram.
May Allah guide you.

ogify1:


Tell that to dem Bill Gates.. Dey play

Bill gates sells software not currency.

beardedboy:

Bill gates sells software not currency.

Lol 😆. *software* okay

Dybala11:

So all POS operators are going to hell right??

Only Allah can determine who goes there! We can only be certain those changing new notes for old notes with interests are big-time sinners!

OgwuEgo:
What kind of yeye username do you bear? Hope you are not a fanatic

I can be to you. Who is a fanatic?