TenQ:

Sorry bro: it's not my fault you cannot cope!

TenQ:

Using your argument, matter can only exist in 3D, therefore even the hypothetical person in 1D or 2D cannot even exist!

TenQ:

So many things point in this direction in our physical realm
+The Law of Entropy forbid infinite regress of cause and effect
+ The natural laws have not always existed
+ Matter had not always existed

Even if their are higher dimensions, the Creator Himself must be the Highest so that everything/other dimensions exist only in Him.

Maynmann:

Read slowly; if there’s no dimension there can’t be matter hence there can’t be a person.

Wilgrea7:

Infinite regress isn't necessarily violated, but the conscious effort of the specific creation isn't also attributed to the "first creator"

This is another way i see it

HellVictorinho6:
why do u still think ours is the only one?

TenQ:

Christians have always thought that a human being is a Trinity of
A Body: Which is the physical biological self
A Soul: Our Consciousness defined by our Will, Emotion and Intellect
A Spirit: Which is the component of our being able to interact with the higher dimensions eg God. The only thing is that we all were born with a defective Spirit (like in comatose)

Each of these component is fully US in three different dimensions.
-With our Body, we interact with the Physical Environment
-With our Spirit, we interact with the Spiritual Environment
-With our Soul, we interact with our Internal/Personal Environment

With our Spirit, we have
1. Conscience: Innate ability to distinguish between write and wrong, good and evil.
2. Intuition: Spontaneous knowledge/awareness which has nothing to do with learning or processing

Why all these background?
Depending on how damaged or healthy our spirit is, we are made available to the spirit environment good or bad.


In other words, even though you are correct in your submission, it is not impossible to interact with the higher spiritual dimensions. Unfortunately, it is ALWAYS at a subjective level

This is exactly the Problem:
An Agnostic is first an atheist looking for a TANGIBLE evidence (usually physical evidence)

This is not impossible, but not everyone is given the favour. Many Atheists for instance has abandoned atheism because they had a compelling Near Death Experience (NDE). Unfortunately , even this is a SUBJECTIVE experience of the person who had the NDE.

Even without any compelling experience, logic tells me that the multilayers of interdependent SYSTEMS that make up our existence as the apex biological being cannot be a spontaneous accident which just happened to evolve us and Programmed every thing.

No problems: fastest way to read a book.
LOL!


There are too many things the limitations of our 3D spatial dimensions will not allow us to know. The statistical odds of a planet like earth is staggering to say the least.
The statistical odds (in 3D) for the Programming of Living things is impossible.

It's like saying, given several sets of the complete alpha numeric characters AND an infinite number of times to randomly juggle them up, is it possible to arrive at the complete C/C++ code with required header to print on a VDU "Hello World!"?
Even if it is possible, the code is not useful until there exists a language Interpreter or Compiler.
+Our DNA is such a complex code complete with its compiler/interpreter
+Our Soul is such a complex code complete with its compiler/interpreter

It is impossible for me to think that thede all happened by accident: I point to One higher than my Dimension as the author.

Maynmann:


Only what?

HellVictorinho6:
only reality

Maynmann:

What’s reality?

HellVictorinho6:
stop deceiving urself

LordReed:


And it's not my fault you want to wallow in ignorance.

Maynmann:

Read slowly; if there’s no dimension there can’t be matter hence there can’t be a person.

TenQ:

You don't get it!?
I am agreeing with you

LOL!

TenQ:

3D to 4D, who is the one in ignorance?
Sorry, step up!

Maynmann:

Define reality.

HellVictorinho6:
i dont know.

Wilgrea7:


Yes, you are correct. However, what I'm trying to avoid, is making the same mistake you mentioned earlier. that even if a 2d being had complete understanding of the 2d plane, it wouldn't equate to an understanding of higher dimensions.

These things you've listed are things we understand about OUR dimension. If reality includes higher dimensions, then it is entirely possible that these constraints may simply not exist there.

Wilgrea7:

Depends on what you mean by creator. Let me explain.

Bill gates is known as the creator of microsoft. However, bill gates is not eternal. He was also created, i.e, given birth to. I don't think anyone would logically refer to Bill gates' parents as the conscious creators of microsoft. Sure you can credit them indirectly, but the ideas, innovation and effort that went into making microsoft was the conscious effort by Bill gates, not his parents.

Similarly, I think it is fully possible for a creator to also have a beginning. If higher dimensions exist, and beings in the higher dimensions possess something similar to what we call consciousness, then they can, on their own volition, if they have the ability, create other beings.

Infinite regress isn't necessarily violated, but the conscious effort of the specific creation isn't also attributed to the "first creator"

This is another way i see it

Maynmann:

stop deceiving urself

Wilgrea7:


While I do think your explanation of the body, spirit and soul are quite interesting, I feel like they seem to fail in taking several things into account.

But before I continue on this point, I want to make sure I'm not mischaracterizing or misrepresenting your position. So please correct me if I'm wrong. Are you saying that the spirit and soul, in addition to the body, make us somewhat more than just 3-dimensional beings?

That by the alleged existence of these things, we are perhaps 4th dimensional beings, experiencing multiple 3-dimensions at once, just as a cube can be seen as a collection of multiple slices of a square?

Wilgrea7:

I think NDEs are also interesting. And if someone chooses to follow a certain religion after an NDE, then good for them. However, from my knowledge of NDEs, they seem incredibly skewed in favor of information the recipient already knows. For example, I'm yet to see an atheist or another theist who had never heard about Jesus or Christianity, have an NDE and come back to talk about him.

NDEs seem heavily reliant on the information the individual already knows (not necessarily believes) at the point of death.

As far as evidence goes, there's no other credible form of evidence we can really turn to. So it becomes a tricky situation. Very similar to elements A and B in the flatland example I gave earlier. So basically, it becomes a case of "we don't know", and "there's no way for us to know right now".

I've never made the claim that reality or our existence happened by "accident"

Wilgrea7:

I agree with you that complexity exists, and this is something that does plague my mind. I will try to rephrase it this way.

1. Something exists (matter, laws of physics, dimensions, everything that is not nothing)
2. This something is incredibly complex

The question isn't resolved by pointing to a higher dimension. Because then we need to ask why a more complex and higher dimension would exist.

Even if you point to a God, a god is technically the highest level of complexity. Something we are not supposed to be able to fathom, but something nonetheless. So why is there something rather than nothing? And why is this something the way it is?

That's the real question. Higher dimensions, gods, and so on don't solve the question. they just push them a step further. But the fundamental question still remains.

HellVictorinho6:
what is reality?

LordReed:


You obviously since you don't even know what dimension means.

Maynmann:

I never made mention of 3D
“ Using your argument, matter can only exist in 3D, therefore even the hypothetical person in 1D or 2D cannot even exist!”

Matter needs a dimension to exist whether one or 100, it doesn’t matter.

TenQ:

I am agreeing with you can't you see?

TenQ:

I think we just have to get to a point where we conclude that it is impossible to comprehend with our existing facilities our present reality because it seems we are just a tiny subset of something infinitely higher than us.

I guess as Christians, we have resolved this totality of higher dimensions to be from God the Creator and Source of Everything.
Atheists on the other hand seem to believe that everything can be resolved within our present realities with more knowledge.

Who's stance is wrong and who's stance is right? Except if it can be proved that it is impossible to have a higher dimension AND it can be shown that we can attain a complete knowledge of our 3D space, I think the stance of the Christians is reasonable!


At least in our 3D spatial dimension, we know that infinite regress of Cause and Effect is impossible. It would be nativity to try to comprehend a higher dimension by what exist in our own dimension. Why?
1. Our existence is strictly a minor subset of the higher dimensions
2. Things that exist in a higher dimension may be completely absent in our own dimension.
Eg
In our dimension, Nothing can come into existence from nothing
However,
It is possible that Nothing come out into existence in our dimension from nothing if such thing is brought into our existence from a higher dimension.

Maynmann:

HellVictorinho6:
why must we say the universe or everything is related to things when everything cannot be mentioned?

Maynmann:

Look up “formless matter”.

TenQ:

The discussion about Formless matter is higher than what I speak about. It is a thought philosophical question about the possibility of higher spatial dimensions existing other than the 3D space we are conversant with. Except in 3D space, objects Dimensions is zero except in the direction allowed by their constraining spatial dimension

HellVictorinho6:
what is everything?

Maynmann:

You don’t know what “formless matter” mean then.
Before talking about higher dimensions, you should first check what dimension means.
And also we call it 3D because that’s what we can observe, length, height and distance.
How are you sure that higher dimensions also have this same exact length, height and distance?
It could be another thing, so what’s dimension?

TenQ:

I have been talking only about SPATIAL DIMENSIONS since the beginning of this!

Are you saying unequivocally that we cannot have a higher spatial dimension that 3D? How do you know?