Was Jakuta retired?
Who represented thunder and lightening before Sango ascended to the throne as the 3rd/4th? Alaafin of Oyo?

The text below seems to indeed portray Esu as the devil
http://destee.com/index.php?threads/getting-started-with-ifa.59403/page-2


When OLODUMARE ordered AJALAMO to mould man, He also ordered ELA to supervise AJALAMO's work. This infuriated ESU to whom ELA was junior, as ESU thought he had been by-passed in favour of a junior. ESU and his followers then levied war against ELA, on a day known as QJO ETI, i.e., the day of (attempting) the impossible; ESU lost, and he and his followers were chucked out of Heaven. QJO ETI corresponds to our Friday. With ESU removed, ELA became the senior of all the Heavenly Powers, and next only to OLODUMARE. Then OLODUMARE instructed ELA to go down to Earth to put things in order; at that time, the whole Earth was one vast mass of water and sky, with chaos everywhere. ESU got to know of this plan, and he and his followers took three alternative decisions: (a) either to prevent ELA from gaining a foothold on Earth, or failing that; (b) to prevent ELA from carrying out OLODUMARE's instructions, or failing that; (c) to ensure that ELA was unable to return to Heaven to report back to OLODUMARE; this is known as the day of the Three Tries; QJO ABAMETA, corresponding to our Saturday. ELA and his followers descended to Earth on OJO AIKU - the Day of not-dying, or of survival, corresponding to our Sunday (presumably implying that ESU was unable to prevent ELA 's descent; anything in parenthesis like this are the writer's comments, for which he alone is responsible).

On the day of ELA 's descent, the whole Earth was convulsed by terrible upheavals. Arriving on Earth, ELA first had to break ESU 's power; terrible battles followed, and the goddess AJE was sent down by OLODUMARE from heaven to assist ELA against ESU; hence the day is known as OJO AJE, or AJE's day; it corresponds to our Monday. ELA gained a decisive victory over ESU by establishing order; thus the day is known os OJOBO -- the Day of the return (of things to normal), or the Day of Restoration, corresponding to our Thursday. ELA then stayed on Earth for two more days, Friday -QJO ETI and Saturday -- QJO ABAMETA, and returned to Heaven on the same day he descended from Heaven, i.e. on OJO AIKU -- Sunday. Hence, the YORUBA believe that every person dies on the day of the week he was born; and that where this is not so, either the person died on somebody else's day (as an unconscious substitute) or that he had actually died on that day of his birth, but had enough energy left in him to last out a little longer before collapsing altogether.

For some time, things went on fine, mankind was fruitful and multiplied, and the Earth was populated; order was everywhere. When ESU saw this, he called his followers together, and was able to attract some of mankind to his band of followers. Trouble began again; women became barren, those with child had miscarriages or difficult births, the sick remained sick, and similar wicked things were done by ESU and his followers. Again OLODUMARE instructed ELA to go down to Earth to restore order, but this time to take on human flesh. (In the original Script, two Stanzas of IFA -- one from EJIOGBE, the other from IROSUN-ATERE -- were quoted in connection with this event. There seems no need to quote them here, due to space consideration). This was the first of six times that ELA came to the Earth as a human being, making seven times in all, if we include his very first visit as The Great Spirit ELA, as recounted above. OLODUMARE always sent him as ORUNMILA to the particular place where there was greatest need. He had different parents each time. On one of these incarnations, his father was OPERTI, his mother was OGIDI, and his place of birth was Oke Itase.


Which Esu was king of Ketu and when?

I got this from Wande Abimbola's website:

There are two hundred and fifty-six Odu or books of Ifá. Each Odu or book is supposed to contain eight hundred stories yielding a total of 256 multiplied by 800 which equals 204 800 stories. Each of these stories contains the experiences of the peoples of West Africa throughout the whole range of their history and mythology. In other words even though most of the peoples of West Africa were not literate they developed the ability to preserve the salient aspects of their culture and history. What is even more they developed a rigorous system for the study codification transmission and dissemination of this vast body of literature and knowledge.


If so, how is it that the Ifa priests seem to ignore Sungbo Eredo, as if they know next to nothing about the queen?
Is it that the Ifa literary corpus makes no mention of Sungbo Eredo?

Please, i need babalawo assistant. anyone there?

Africa is the cradle of humanity, civilization, philosophy, physical sciences, commerce, metarlurgy, agriculture,  Pretty much all the core recipes of civility.

The greatest mistake the war mongering crusaders made was assuming that if they attempted to get rid of the evidence of black African history then they'll be free to create it themselves. This assumption was admitedly witty but more importantly was always doomed for failure.


It has been revealed that many Greeks use to pilgramage to Egypt as students of the great minds of that time and Pythagoras was no exception. The killing evidence of this was found somewhere in the continent and the shocking thing is that the scripts pre-dates even pythagoras himself; the same goes for Hippocrates that the Greeks claim to be the father of medicine - LIES

A famous Roman once said if you could write a book of a thousand pages, you couldnt fit the names of the Greeks that visited Egypt.


Much of West African philosophy remains undiluted because West Africans existed way before the communities in Europe became. And please dont confuse literacy with intelligence because they're both completely different notions. However, some good for nothing nitwits have tried to westernize this, the text that amor4ce is a typical example. We all know that ESu has nothing in common with the christian character known as Satan; as this Satan character is a mere figment of imagination.

In my opinion, the text in the article http://destee.com/index.php?threads/getting-started-with-ifa.59403/page-2 has NO credibility whatsoever.

If we educate ourselves in our own dialect and NOT a foreogn one like English, French, Spanish e.t.c my point would become much clearer. Because much (not all) of West Africans were'nt literate during and prior to the Egyptian dynaties doesnt mean that they were not intelligent. Intelligence is a state of the mind and has little to do with ones ability to express this in on papyri.

Talking of papyrus; this was invented in the African continent.

btw the timeline of Sungbo Eredo needs to be microscopically examined by Nigerians and NOT Europeans to determine the TRUE carbonprint of this significant historical monument. There's such alot of work to do and we sidetrack ourselves with nonsensical jargons lwhen we have our own history to put together. You, me and everyone else has to chip in, we need to operate as if Our world has been stolen and we NEED to take it back.

can some1 fumi toto

amor4ce:

I got this from Wande Abimbola's website:

There are two hundred and fifty-six Odu or books of Ifá. Each Odu or book is supposed to contain eight hundred stories yielding a total of 256 multiplied by 800 which equals 204 800 stories. Each of these stories contains the experiences of the peoples of West Africa throughout the whole range of their history and mythology. In other words even though most of the peoples of West Africa were not literate they developed the ability to preserve the salient aspects of their culture and history. What is even more they developed a rigorous system for the study codification transmission and dissemination of this vast body of literature and knowledge.


If so, how is it that the Ifa priests seem to ignore Sungbo Eredo, as if they know next to nothing about the queen?
Is it that the Ifa literary corpus makes no mention of Sungbo Eredo?

which queen are you talking about? Queen of Sheba?

There are always two sides to legendary - the old(which is the original) and the new(the contemporary version with some adulteration). That we have seen in many of the stories. They never changed the real objects behind the whole stories.

I belive we had some kind of writing system before total colonization

rgp922:

I belive we had some kind of writing system before total colonization

It wouldnt suprise me, but we need hard evidence; please if you have insight of this enlighten us.

The restoration has already started, believe me when i say things will never be the same again.

We are in the process of literally ripping up the record books and re-writting history. . . African history.

From an African prespective (this is not an attempt to replace fiction with fiction) but to salvage the little pieces of evidence we have been able to recover (infact with are in communication with various museums and galleries) in an attempt to re-construct our history to project as TRUTHFULLY as humanly possible a picture of how things were before the European Invasion.

The truth is that none of our archaeologists are even bothered to look into places for sites of ancient history, I haven't come across a milestone of excavations (I know they are there) carried out in this great cultural part of the earth.

Now on topic, Yoruba mythology is a hit in South America and the Caribbean. In my oipnion there needs to be a bridge buit that can reach out to these people; not in an attempt to overwhelm them with how we think they got their versions wrong but just to connect with their souls.

Many of these people call themselves Yoruba (and rightfully so) but we dont even recognise that they exist; i think this has to change.

all4naija:

The truth is that none of our archaeologists are even bothered to look into places for sites of ancient history, I haven't come across a milestone of excavations (I know they are there) carried out in this great cultural part of the earth.

How can most of our archaeologists be bothered to look into places for sites of ancient history, when most of them are either waiting for a white man to descend from the skies and rapture them or a pilgrimage to Israel; whilst some are busy trying to learn arabic or a pilgrimage to Mecca.

But it IS our job to WAKE THEM UP! The bridge of the intellectual divide has to cease to exist in that form; the form of their NOT being a bridge. It is imperative that we see things from the same scope regardless of our differences.

However, there are archaeologists, anthroplogists and geophysicists and authorities in many other disciplines of relevance that are willing to be a part of thisd project for what its worth. The ball has already started to roll and its pace is not determined by no man/woman but by the conscience of people; the conscience that yearns for the TRUTH.

Rgp92:

A white man visits Ífè, the sacred city of the Yórubas, and asks to hear the history of the place. The Órní, the religious head of Yórubaland, begins, and directs the Babaláwo Arába, the chief-priest of Ífa to continue.

I. THE BEGINNING.

The Órní of Ífè speaks:
Oíbo, you have asked to hear our lore,
The legends of the World's young hours—and where
Could truth in greater surety have its home
Than in the precincts of the shrines of Those
Who made the World, and in the mouths of priests
To whom their doings have been handed down
From sire to son?
Arámfè
reigns in
Heaven;        Before this World was made
There reigned Arámfè in the realm of Heaven
Amidst his sons. Old were the hills around him;
The Sun had shone upon his vines and cornfields
Since time past reckoning. Old was Arámfè,
The father of the Gods: his youth had been
The youth of Heaven. . . Once when the King reclined
Upon the dais, and his sons lay prostrate
In veneration at his feet, he spoke
tells his
sons of the
creation of
Heaven;   Of the great things he purposed:
     "My sons, you know
But fair things which I made for you, before
I called your spirits from the Dusk: for always
p. 14 Your eyes have watched the shadows and the wind
On waving corn, and I have given you
The dances and the chorus of the night—
An age of mirth and sunrise (the wine of Heaven)
Is your existence. You have not even heard
Of the grey hour when my young eyes first opened
To gaze upon a herbless Mass, unshaped
And unadorned. But I knew well the heart
Of Him-Who-Speaks-Not, the far-felt Purpose that gave
Me birth; I laboured and the grim years passed:
Streams flowed along their sunny beds; I set
The stars above me, and the hills about;
I fostered budding trees, and taught the birds
Their song—the unshapely I had formed to beauty,
And as the ages came I loved to make
The beautiful more fair. . . All went not well:
A noble animal my mind conceived
Emerged in loathsome form to prey upon
My gentle creatures; a river, born to bask
In sunlit channels and mirror the steep hills,
Tore down its banks and ravaged field and plain;
While cataract and jagged precipice,
Now grand with years, remind me of dread days
p. 15 When Heaven tottered, and wide rifts sundered my young
Fair hills, and all seemed lost. Yet—I prevailed.
Think, now, if the accomplished whole be Heaven,
How wonderful the anxious years of slow
And hazardous achievement—a destiny
For Gods. But yours it has not been to lead
Creation by the cliff's-edge way from Mass
To Paradise." He paused on the remembrance,
And Great Orísha cried: "Can we do naught?
What use in godhead without deeds to do?
Where yearns a helpless region for a hand
To guide it?" And Old Arámfè answered him:
sends them
to make the
World.   "My son, your day approaches. Far-off, the haze
Rests always on the outer waste which skirts
Our realm; beyond, a nerveless Mass lies cold
'Neath floods which some malign unreason heaves.
Odúwa, first-born of my sons, to you I give
The five-clawed Bird, the sand of power.1 Go now,
Call a despairing land to smiling life
Above the jealous sea, and found sure homesteads
For a new race whose destiny is not
The eternal life of Gods. You are their judge;
p. 16 Yours is the kingship, and to you all Gods
And men are subject. Wisest of my sons,
Orísha, yours is the grateful task to loose
Vague spirits1 waiting for the Dawn—to make
The race that shall be; and to you I give
This bag of Wisdom's guarded lore and arts
For Man's well-being and advancement. And you,
My younger sons, the chorus and the dance,
The voice of worship and the crafts are yours
To teach—that the new thankful race may know
The mirth of Heaven and the joys of labour."
Then Odúwa said: "Happy our life has been,
And I would gladly roam these hills for ever,
Your son and servant. But to your command
I yield; and in my kingship pride o'ersteps
Sorrow and heaviness. Yet, Lord Arámfè,
I am your first-born: wherefore do you give
The arts and wisdom to Orísha? I,
The King, will be obeyed; the hearts of men
Will turn in wonder to the God who spells
Strange benefits." But Arámfè said "Enough;
To each is fitting task is given. Farewell."
The Gods
leave
Heaven.   p. 17 Here the Beginning was: from Arámfè's vales
Through the desert regions the exiled Gods approached
The edge of Heaven, and into blackness plunged—
A sunless void o'er godless water lying—1
To seize an empire from the Dark, and win
Amidst ungoverned waves a sovereignty.

Odúwa
steals the
bag and
causes War
on Earth.   But by the roadside while Orísha slept
Odúwa came by stealth and bore away
The bag Arámfè gave. Thus was the will
Of God undone: for thus with the charmed sand
Cast wide on the unmastered sea, his sons
Called forth a World of envy and of war.

Of Man's Creation, and of the restraint
Olókun2 placed upon the chafing sea,
Of the unconscious years which passed in darkness
Till dazzling sunshine touched the unused eyes
Of men, of War and magic—my priest shall tell you,
And all the Great Ones did before the day
They vanished to return to the calm hills
Life in Ífè
is as it was
in the time
of the Gods   p. 18 Of Old Arámfè's realm . . . They went away;
But still with us their altars and their priests
Remain, and from their shrines the hidden Gods
Peer forth with joy to watch the dance they taught,
And hear each night their chorus with the drum:
For changeless here the early World endures
In this first stronghold of humanity,
And, constant as the buffets of the waves
Of Queen Olókun on the shore, the song,
The dance of those old Gods abide, the mirth,
The life . . . I, too, am born of the Beginning:
Odúm’la
speaks for
the Gods;   For, when from the sight of men the Great Gods passed,
They left on Earth Órní Odúm’la1 charged
To be a father to a mourning people,
To tend the shrines and utter solemn words
Inspired by Those invisible. And when
Odúm’la's time had come to yield the crown,
To wait upon the River's brink,2 and cross
To Old Arámfè—Ífa,3 in his wisdom,
and lives
for ever in
the person
of the
Órní.   p. 19 Proclaimed that son with whom Odúm’la's soul
Abode. Thus has it ever been; and now
With me that Being is—about, within—
And on our sacred days these lips pronounce
The words of Odudúwa and Orísha.

Could you provide the date of this happening? Thanks

alj_harem: Elegguá
Elegguá is the owner of the roads and doors in this world. He is the repository of ashé. The colors red and black or white and black are his and codify his contradictory nature. In particular, Elegguá stands at the crossroads of the human and the divine, as he is child-like messenger between the two worlds. In this role, it is not surprising that he has a very close relationship with the orisha of divination, Orunmila. Nothing can be done in either world without his permission. Elegguá is always propitiated and called first before any other orisha as he opens the door between the worlds and opens our roads in life. He recognises himself and is recognised by the numbers 3 and 21.

Nice images, great work, well apreciated

Could you do me a favour and replace the image depiction that you connect to this divinity with an African model?

The picture reflects the UNTRUE notion that Esu is synomynous to Satan. I can assure you that this NOT the case.

Thank-You in advance

The chronology of most of these historical accounts is going to be a great hurdle in the quest. Not until our archaeologists face the facts and start acting as capable hands many of the interesting parts might be lost forever.

all4naija:

The chronology of most of these historical accounts is going to be a great hurdle in the quest. Not until our archaeologists face the facts and start acting as capable hands many of the interesting parts might be lost forever.

I agree.

What use to be a problem is now yesterdays news; as in we have now been able to split our material into two main classes:

Historical Truth
Religious History

1921

@rgp922 thanks well apreciated

Amujale:


Much of West African philosophy remains undiluted because West Africans existed way before the communities in Europe became. And please dont confuse literacy with intelligence because they're both completely different notions. However, some good for nothing nitwits have tried to westernize this, the text that amor4ce is a typical example. We all know that ESu has nothing in common with the christian character known as Satan; as this Satan character is a mere figment of imagination.

In my opinion, the text in the article http://destee.com/index.php?threads/getting-started-with-ifa.59403/page-2 has NO credibility whatsoever.

I know that Yoruba don't do things for nothing. What then is then is the reason for the names of the weeks and months in the Yoruba solar calendar? Certainly the names are not for decoration. Also, why call your fellow men nitwits? Did you create them?

"African" history is very much in the Bible, it is as if some of these crusaders tried to blot it out - kind of like Gentiles using what is yours against you.

rgp922:

1921

Fantastic thread

Amujale:

Now on topic, Yoruba mythology is a hit in South America and the Caribbean. In my oipnion there needs to be a bridge buit that can reach out to these people; not in an attempt to overwhelm them with how we think they got their versions wrong but just to connect with their souls.

Many of these people call themselves Yoruba (and rightfully so) but we dont even recognise that they exist; i think this has to change.

+100

Excellent contributions on this thread.


Alj Harem,

Lovely posts on the first page.

Amujale:


Nice images, great work, well apreciated

Could you do me a favour and replace the image depiction that you connect to this divinity with an African model?

The picture reflects the UNTRUE notion that Esu is synomynous to Satan. I can assure you that this NOT the case.

Thank-You in advance

would do just that

Katsumoto:

Fantastic thread

+100

Excellent contributions on this thread.


Alj Harem,

Lovely posts on the first page.

Thanks. Lng time bro

Why does this thread keep coming back to esu?

Lets stop it plz.

Its things like this which make discussions about ATR in its entirety unacceptable to many people.

The thread is not about esu or the devil- its about yoruba mythology in general. Why are people trying to give esu prominence here unless there's more to it.

None of the statues so far are correct representations of the entity in question.

I checked some old accounts and the esu described centuries ago was not an actual statue but rather a collection of objects and its implications were fully understood by the worshippers.

This type of argument i'm seeing on nl seems to be another of the internet based fads which make the rounds every now and then, backed by some questionable characters on ground.

Lets not abandon wisdom in the name of being anti-western plz. Ironically enough, all the anti-westernism doesnt seem to apply when most of you are talking about women. Thats when we hear lectures on open mindedness.

tpia@:

Why does this thread keep coming back to esu?

Lets stop it plz.

Its things like this which make discussions about ATR in its entirety unacceptable to many people.

The thread is not about esu or the devil- its about yoruba mythology in general. Why are people trying to give esu prominence here unless there's more to it.

None of the statues so far are correct representations of the entity in question.

I checked some old accounts and the esu described centuries ago was not an actual statue but rather a collection of objects and its implications were fully understood by the worshippers.

This type of argument i'm seeing on nl seems to be another of the internet based fads which make the rounds every now and then, backed by some questionable characters on ground.

Lets not abandon wisdom in the name of being anti-western plz. Ironically enough, all the anti-westernism doesnt seem to apply when most of you are talking about women. Thats when we hear lectures on open mindedness.

Hehe.

Guys we need to spread our mythology on. We cant just import everything, we need to export too

Katsumoto:

Fantastic thread

+100

Excellent contributions on this thread.


Alj Harem,

Lovely posts on the first page.

Great you are here observing and not chiming in with your copy and paste 4 pounds like you usually do. You seem to be learning fast.

Like my signature said, I will keep you on a very very very short leash. Be warned.


BTW, Tryna make friends, the Dale Carnegie way or is this another Far Eastern philosophy you 'is' trying to use on Alj Harem and co? I have you well figured out.  Just watch as I take over the throne!


[size=4pt]PS: If you like interpret it literally like a simpleton that you are, na you sabi.[/size]

arsenefc:

Great you are here observing and not chiming in with your copy and paste 4 pounds like you usually do. You seem to be learning fast.

Like my signature said, I will keep you on a very very very short leash. Be warned.


BTW, Tryna make friends, the Dale Carnegie way or is this is another Far Eastern philosophy you 'is' trying to use on Alj Harem and co? I have you well figured out. Just watch as I take over the throne!


[size=4pt]PS: If you like interpret it literally like a simpleton that you are, na you sabi.[/size]

Still de laff. I think say na Sagamite be your enemy, wetin Katsumoto do you na?.

tpia@:

Why does this thread keep coming back to esu?

Lets stop it plz.

Its things like this which make discussions about ATR in its entirety unacceptable to many people.

The thread is not about esu or the devil- its about yoruba mythology in general. Why are people trying to give esu prominence here unless there's more to it.

None of the statues so far are correct representations of the entity in question.

I checked some old accounts and the esu described centuries ago was not an actual statue but rather a collection of objects and its implications were fully understood by the worshippers.

This type of argument i'm seeing on nl seems to be another of the internet based fads which make the rounds every now and then, backed by some questionable characters on ground.

Lets not abandon wisdom in the name of being anti-western plz. Ironically enough, all the anti-westernism doesnt seem to apply when most of you are talking about women. Thats when we hear lectures on open mindedness.

The unaccomplished anthropologist. Is this how you are leading your failed anthropology dream? On NL?

Great job BTW. It is not my thing to beat up on a woman, a fugly one for that matter, when she is already pu/c/c/y up.

Andre Uweh:

Still de laff. I think say na Sagamite be your enemy, wetin Katsumoto do you na?.

You seem to not really understand. Anyone gallivanting around like they are bigger than they really are is my enemy.

Anyone can study IT and have great skill at using google, but they should never try to take any credit for what they dont know.



Sagamite has stopped claiming to be smart, intellectual and all those crapp that used to be his trademark, so few people now worship him and he is getting boring so there is not point going after him. Katz still has followers and even though I have reduced it by 50% in the past few weeks and demystified him to my hearts content, I think I can still do more.

Anyway, enjoy the show as Mr. Katz unravel in the coming weeks.

arsenefc:


You seem to not really understand. Anyone gallivanting around like they are bigger than they really are is my enemy.

Anyone can study IT and have great skill at using google, but they should never try to take any credit for what they dont know.



Sagamite has stopped claiming to be smart, intellectual and all those crapp that used to be his trademark, so few people now worship him and he is getting boring so there is not point going after him. Katz still has followers and even though I have reduced it by 50% in the past few weeks and demystified him to my hearts content, I think I can still do more.

Anyway, enjoy the show as Mr. Katz unravel in the coming weeks.

Thanks for educating me. Please forgive them.

tpia@:

Why does this thread keep coming back to esu?

Lets stop it plz.

Its things like this which make discussions about ATR in its entirety unacceptable to many people.

The thread is not about esu or the devil- its about yoruba mythology in general. Why are people trying to give esu prominence here unless there's more to it.

None of the statues so far are correct representations of the entity in question.

I checked some old accounts and the esu described centuries ago was not an actual statue but rather a collection of objects and its implications were fully understood by the worshippers.

This type of argument i'm seeing on nl seems to be another of the internet based fads which make the rounds every now and then, backed by some questionable characters on ground.

Lets not abandon wisdom in the name of being anti-western plz. Ironically enough, all the anti-westernism doesnt seem to apply when most of you are talking about women. Thats when we hear lectures on open mindedness.

The reasons why attention was given to emphases on those two deities was because of how they were erroneously represented in day world with something else. They were absolutely different and needed better clarification. However, the South Americans have been adulterating these gods with different images perhaps with different story lines.

What does Yoruba mythology say about:
(1) the Yoruba solar (12-month) calendar?
(2) the warning from Ela?


Was Jakuta retired by Sango?