Bronze casting was practiced in many areas of West Africa; the most famous examples only come from a few locations.


Chyz, if you are saying that only Ife in Yorubaland developed bronze casting, you'd be incorrect. The Ogboni society, among others, used bronze casting heavily. However the naturalistic bronzes were produced solely in Ife (naturalistic terracottas were also found in Owo).

lakal:

Bronze casting was practiced in many areas of West Africa; the most famous examples only come from a few locations.


Chyz, if you are saying that only Ife in Yorubaland developed bronze casting, you'd be incorrect. The Ogboni society, among others, used bronze casting heavily. However the naturalistic bronzes were produced solely in Ife (naturalistic terracottas were also found in Owo).

The society was put together way after the ife claim. I never saif ife was the only yoruba place to practice bronze casting. I asked if ife wss the only area in yorubaland practicing bronze casting at the time. Owo has major bini influence btw, google them.

@ Negro Nations, the notion that the Kings of Benin were buried in Ife was quite literally due to the work of Percry A. Talbot, a European, in the 1920s. It is therefore interesting to read that you don't think much of the accounts of Europeans when they recorded earlier traditions.

 

Just because he recorded the story does not make him the authority on it.  Let us trace the transmission link. Where did the European Talbot get the story from; who was the authority or source that this literal work should be credited to?

Egharevba read Talbot's work (among other sources) and he changed his earlier work to reflect that tradition.

Egharevba's initial work must either have been founded on a false footing or he lacked confidence in his own ability to challenge Talbot's credibility.

However, since you claim they were buried in Ife, can you tell me how members of the Okaeben buried the king of Benin in Ife? Or if not them, can you tell me who was responsible for this? Also can you tell me where in Ife they were buried?

I dont know any of these beside of course saying Orun Oba Ado.

Please don't say Orun Oba Ado, because the dates for that site are much earlier (6th-10th century) than the dates suggested for the Obas of Benin, and nothing has been found from excavations there to link it with Benin. There are other places in Yorubaland called Ado, anyway.

First, dating by who?  These datings are approximates and are not error-proof.  Has the burial grund for Lagos Obas in Bini been excavated to prove that Ado was there, or Guabaro was there or if Akinsemoyin was there?  What kind of prospect is this you are theorizing?

I have preached repeatedly that the descendants of Lamarudu are AfroAsiatic but people are stubborn and too sunk into European ideology to relate to the meaning in my message.  It will take a European writing it or showing a documentary of the facts before people shift in their belief.

Ado, Oba Ado, Olorogun Ado, Ologun Ado, Ita Ado. . . . . ADO is common amongst all Oduduwa children but what does it mean?  ADO means Lord.  Back in the days when the monarch was also regarded as God"s deputy on earth, the King enjoyed attributes belonging to God.  ADO is derived from semitic ADON; which in turn derived from ADONAI.  Same applies with AKIN, AKEN, AKHEN, such as Akinsemoyin, Akhenzua, Akinsuwa, Akinade. . . . all derived from AKHENATEN.   ATEN itself is crown or ADE.

Permit me while I digress but close enough to score a point on the topic of this post.  Tpia was right when she said the art is not just for entertainment, they have purpose and function.  It is surprising no one has asked the meaning of the discs sitting on the third eye of the Ife bronze heads.   This crown can be regarded as a classic masterpiece.  We have Egyptologists.  If we had Yorubalogists many mysteries would have been awakened and their emergence would conclusively have settled the matter once and for all where Yoruba came from.   This crown on Ife head is that of a king in the cult of Akhenaten - The Egyptian pharaoh who used the cosmic sun as a centerdness for awakening consciousness and enlightenement.

And I do not think you answered the one question (your interpretation) that I requested that you answer.

You mean if Iguegha is a Yoruba name?  I dont know if it has a equivalent in Yoruba or not but in the form and tone of its spelling, no doesnt sound likeone.

Chyz*:

Owo has major bini influence btw, google them.

well they were under the benin  kingdom at one point, so maybe through influential or political power but cultural I doubt it because the bini's were actually influenced by the Owo's as well when it comes to sculpting.[b]

"In their oral tradition, Owo traces its origins to the ancient city of Ile-Ife, the cradle of Yoruba culture.[2] Oral tradition also claims that the founders were the sons of the Yoruba deity Odudua, who was the first ruler of Ile-Ife. The early art-historical and archaeological records reinforce these strong affiliations with Ife culture.[2] Owo was able to maintain virtual independence from the neighboring kingdom of Benin, but was on occasion required to give tribute.[3] The transmission of courtly culture flowed in both directions between the Benin and the Owo kingdoms. The skill of Owo's ivory carvers was also appreciated at the court of Benin. During the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, Benin's rulers increasingly utilized insignia made from ivory, and imported Owo's art objects and recruited its artisans for their own royal workshops.[4] there were othe notable artworks that can be evidently support[5]ed

Owo came under British rule in 1893. After Nigeria declared independence in 1960, it was part of the Western Region until 1967 when it became part of the Western State.Owo and its indegenes played significant roles in the politics of the first Republic, in Nigeria. In 1976, it became part of the newly created Ondo State.

The present-day town is an agricultural center involved in the growing and trade of yams, cassava, maize, okra, peppers, cocoa, and cotton. There are however other meaningful commercial activities in the town including but not limited to, timber and sawmilling, Soya beans procesing plant and blockmaking industries. The town is ditted with branches of some of the foremost banks like,First Bank Plc,Skye Bank Plc,(former Omega Bank Plc) etc. The city is now witnessing a dramatic change and beautification due to expansion of its road network,particularly dualization of the main road beginning from Emure junction up to Iyere exit.A new Ultra-modern market is now opened in Owo."[/b]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owo,_Nigeria

1. Actually, I checked my source again. Talbot is not the source of the "burial of Benin kings in Ife" claim. He's the source of the "bronze casting from Ife to Benin" claim and Egharevba read his work and altered his story about Iguegha to fit this. As for the "burial in Ife" claim, the story originates with Egharevba, after he modified his original story where Oba Eweka was buried in Usama in Benin to state that Oba Eweka was buried in Ife and every third Oba after him as well. What prompted him to modify his story is unstated, but there is no other support for the story in tradition. My sincerest apologies for the misstatement earlier. Anyway, the "burial in Ife" claim has yet to be supported by anything in Benin tradition.

2. The Oba of Benin dynasty is unlikely to have been contemporaneous with Orun Oba Ado (the dates for the Orun Oba Ado site were obtained by radiocarbon dating). I'm saying this because in order to stretch the Oba of Benin dynasty back to that time, the length of the reigns of many Obas would have to be inflated considerably.

3.Where are the Obas of Lagos buried in Benin? What was the placed called? I haven't heard of this tradition and I would like to know where it was first stated and by who.


4. My question about Iguegha was this: If you accept that this "Iguegha" from Benin tradition was indeed an Ife court artist who came to Benin, then what does that say about the Ife court? I don't accept the modification that makes his origin Ife, but for those that do, I can't see how they reconcile his name - and the fact that Edo speakers don't mutilate and massively bungle Yoruba names - with the claim about what his ethnicity was.

5. As for the uses of the Ife bronzes, I have read about the theories relating to their use in funerals, but that is unrelated to the questions I posed about the burial of the king of Benin.

Negro_Ntns: I have preached repeatedly that the descendants of Lamarudu are AfroAsiatic but people are stubborn and too sunk into European ideology to relate to the meaning in my message.  It will take a European writing it or showing a documentary of the facts before people shift in their belief.

Ado, Oba Ado, Olorogun Ado, Ologun Ado, Ita Ado. . . . . ADO is common amongst all Oduduwa children but what does it mean?  ADO means Lord.  Back in the days when the monarch was also regarded as God"s deputy on earth, the King enjoyed attributes belonging to God.  ADO is derived from semitic ADON; which in turn derived from ADONAI.  Same applies with AKIN, AKEN, AKHEN, such as Akinsemoyin, Akhenzua, Akinsuwa, Akinade. . . . all derived from AKHENATEN.   ATEN itself is crown or ADE.

Permit me while I digress but close enough to score a point on the topic of this post.  Tpia was right when she said the art is not just for entertainment, they have purpose and function.  It is surprising no one has asked the meaning of the discs sitting on the third eye of the Ife bronze heads.   This crown can be regarded as a classic masterpiece.  We have Egyptologists.  If we had Yorubalogists many mysteries would have been awakened and their emergence would conclusively have settled the matter once and for all where Yoruba came from.   This crown on Ife head is that of a king in the cult of Akhenaten - The Egyptian pharaoh who used the cosmic sun as a centerdness for awakening consciousness and enlightenement.

This is interesting, although I wasn't speculating about the origin of Yoruba. Open a thread about this, or start a website, or (preferably) refer us to a book or write a book on this.

When arguments are presented in full, they are often easier to accept.


As for Akenzua it is "a kon ze uwa" (one has to appear modest (play the fool) before attaining prosperity) according to a Benin tradition recorded in the book Art, innovation, and politics in eighteenth-century Benin. I don't see the Akhenaten angle.

Chyz*:

The society was put together way after the ife claim. I never saif ife was the only yoruba place to practice bronze casting. I asked if ife wss the only area in yorubaland practicing bronze casting at the time. Owo has major bini influence btw, google them.

Why should I google Owo, when I'm from a town that has a boundary with Owo? lmao.

Cultural influences, one way or another, really has nothing to do with anything I said.

lakal:


Why should I google Owo, when I'm from a town that has a boundary with Owo? lmao.

Cultural influences, one way or another, really has nothing to do with anything I said.

It has a lot to do with it if your talking about bronze casting. And if you are from a bordering town it doesnt mean you know the place like that you probably grew up in lagos i bet.

anonymous6:

well they were under the benin  kingdom at one point, so maybe through influential or political power but cultural I doubt it because the bini's were actually influenced by the Owo's as well when it comes to sculpting.[b][color=#550000]

With Benin influencial and political power comes culture. That is something you cant escape.

Chyz*:

It has a lot to do with it if your talking about bronze casting. And if you are from a bordering town it doesnt mean you know the place like that you probably grew up in lagos i bet.

I know the place. My grandma is from there even. I know about Igogo, Orensen (Orosun) and other important Owo traditions.

I was talking about terracotta -- why would Benin influence Owo in that regard, especially if Owo terracottas look like Ife ones?

Owo terracotta:

Mythical founder of Benin Bronze tradition: Iguegha

Mythical founder of Ife Bronze tradition: Obalufon




I find it very interesting that an advance like this is attributed solely to one person. Was that really the case?

Chyz*:

With Benin influencial and political power comes culture. That is something you cant escape.

True, however not a significant as you hype it to be, but based on what I read when it comes to art sculpting the benin's were influenced by the Owo's not the other way around; so their knowledge of sculpting didn't come from benin's. Now this is not to say that benin's didn't have their own separate way of sculpting bronze art but when it comes to the discussion of Owo's when it comes to art sculpting cultural influence that was from them & maybe a influence from Ife itself

@ tpia

As for Benin, I did not claim that they invented their bronze casting a propos of nothing or that it was autochtonous, but I don't need to make up origins for them, or modify tradition to link them to places which I hold in esteem, whether it be Egypt, Ife, or wherever when simple logic would make the modifications not make sense.


I'll comment on the Benin heterogeneity a little later.

anonymous6:

True but based on what I read when it comes to art sculpting the benin's were influenced by the Owo's not the other way around; so their knowledge of sculpting didn't come from benin's

On contrary, when it comes to Ivory, that's where the yoruba influence came in.

My question is, what is the meaning behind the long streaks down the faces of these sculptures?

Chyz*:

My question is, what is the meaning behind the long streaks down the faces of these sculptures?

On part 3 of the BBC documentary three theories or explanations of the meaning of the long streaks down the face of the sculptures came up:

1. It was believed that two dynasties lines came from Ife and in order to make a differentiation or identification between the two; one dynasty line had the streak markings on the face while the other dynasty line didn't have these streak markings

2. The streaks represented a beaded veal meaning to cover or shield the face of the ife king from the public; to show his power.

3. Visual trick to cut down the shininess of the freshly bronze, to make it look more natural

Physics,

No need for apology on misstatement, you are discussing with a broadmind and I overlook such minor errors.

1. Anyway, the "burial in Ife" claim has yet to be supported by anything in Benin tradition.

Bini is caught in individualism struggle and seems it is trying to exorcise itself from underneath the Oduduwa family tree, particularly on subject of heirarchy.  The silence in Bini does not in anyway indicate it did not happen.

2. The Oba of Benin dynasty is unlikely to have been contemporaneous with Orun Oba Ado (the dates for the Orun Oba Ado site were obtained by radiocarbon dating). I'm saying this because in order to stretch the Oba of Benin dynasty back to that time, the length of the reigns of many Obas would have to be inflated considerably.

In tradition with everything else we are revising, we will soon realize that some radiocarbon datings are indeed Best Practice process and not fool-proof  and must then be revised - similar to the argument on fingerprinting vs DNA evidence. A lot of innocent lives were lost to fingerprinting evidence connecting them to crimes that they were posthumously exonerated from by discovery in DNA sampling.

3.Where are the Obas of Lagos buried in Benin? What was the placed called? I haven't heard of this tradition and I would like to know where it was first stated and by who.

I dont know Bini to tell you where but I know Lagos history enough to confirm that for you.  All Oba of Lagos were buried in the palace - Idungaran - only beginning with Akintoye.  His predecessors were taken to Bini for burial. Akintoye was the 9th Oba.

4. My question about Iguegha was this: If you accept that this "Iguegha" from Benin tradition was indeed an Ife court artist who came to Benin, then what does that say about the Ife court? I don't accept the modification that makes his origin Ife, but for those that do, I can't see how they reconcile his name - and the fact that Edo speakers don't mutilate and massively bungle Yoruba names - with the claim about what his ethnicity was.

I do not accept that Iguegha was Ife court artist.  I have realized that Bini has different name for Yoruba identities - example like the meaning you just gave for Akenzua.  Like Ekhaladeran.  Is Iguegha another one of such double names?

5. As for the uses of the Ife bronzes, I have read about the theories relating to their use in funerals, but that is unrelated to the questions I posed about the burial of the king of Benin.

Those are theoretical accounts by Western researchers who in their backwardness think that if a head cast in Bantu is used for funeral then a Ife head must also be used for funeral.  

As for Akenzua it is "a kon ze uwa" (one has to appear modest before attaining prosperity) according to a tradition. I don't see the Akhenaten angle.

Physics, if you were not a Bini man I'd be upset with you for the blasphemy on Akenzua.  No Prince of an Empire need modesty to attain his birthright.  Names are attributes of the person.  Akin means Braveheart.  It is reserved for men of calvary - warriors and heroes.  Kings were also warriors and led their men to war.  So you will also find princes bearing Akin, in addition to Ade - crownhead.  If you say Aken in Bini does not mean braveheart, then I dispute the meaning you gave to it, knowing that it is most unbefitting of an attribute to give to a son whose birthright to prosperity is ordained by noble blood.  You want a crown prince to be bold and brave, not modest and aspiring to prosperity.

obi of onitsha dancing with the bini royal sword eben and the olowo of owo posing with the bini royal sword eben. that leaves me wondering why the supposed bini cultural influences always have to come from the yoruba side and not the igbo side?

exotik:

obi of onitsha dancing with the bini royal sword eben and the olowo of owo posing with the bini royal sword eben. that leaves me wondering why the supposed bini cultural influences always have to come from the yoruba side and not the igbo side?

That is why it is said that the bini culture is not homogeneous.

For example the word BINI is from   the[b] Itsekhiri's "Ubinu"[/b].

I was talking about terracotta -- why would Benin influence Owo in that regard, especially if Owo terracottas look like Ife ones?

well, dats simple. the owo are yoruba-speaking people abi? and the ife are yoruba-speaking people. so why would owo terracotta look like dat if bini who are not yoruba-speaking people? even though we can all draw with pencil on paper today, which is clearly a european influence, would you draw the olowo of owo  who is ethnically yoruba to look like prince charles who is ethnically english? no!

emmatok:

That is why it is said that the bini culture is not homogeneous.

For example the word BINI is from   the[b] Itsekhiri's "Ubinu"[/b].

of course, i know it is not homogenous coz no group has a homogenous culture. but why are the supposed influences always claimed to come from the yoruba side? what were the others doing? sleeping? i have even read attempts where yorubas would claim dat the beautiful bini hair style worn by the oba's wives may have been a yoruba influence because some yorubas who were under bini wear it too, but forgeting that some igbos also wear that hair style?

and btw, "ubinu" was always said to be a yoruba word meaning so-called "land of vexation" because oranmiyan could not rule bini due to the angry nature of the people. so when he was leaving, he called  it ile ubini -- the land of vexation. LMAO!! it is only recently i have been reading dat it is actually an itsekiri word and not a yoruba word. so wot does ubinu mean in itsekiri? cos i take it you are itsekhiri?

Gosh you are d.umb.

^ is that the only word u know? shut up!

exotik:

of course, i know it is not homogenous coz no group has a homogenous culture. but why are the supposed influences always claimed to come from the yoruba side? what were the others doing? sleeping? i have even read attempts where yorubas would claim dat the beautiful bini hair style worn by the oba's wives may have been a yoruba influence because some yorubas who were under bini wear it too, but forgeting that some igbos also wear that hair style?

and btw, "ubinu" was always said to be a yoruba word meaning so-called "land of vexation" because oranmiyan could not rule bini due to the angry nature of the people. so when he was leaving, he called  it ile ubini -- the land of vexation. LMAO!! it is only recently i have been reading dat it is actually an itsekiri word and not a yoruba word. so wot does ubinu mean in itsekiri? cos i take it you are itsekhiri?

Actually the correct phrase is "ile ibinu."  Ubinu and ibinu look to be variations of the same word --- especially since Itsekiri is a derivative of the Yoruboid languages.

lakal, twas a typo. so it no longer came from oranmiyan, ryt? or oranmiyan was itsekhiri?

exotik:

well, dats simple. the owo are yoruba-speaking people abi? and the ife are yoruba-speaking people. so why would owo terracotta look like dat if bini who are not yoruba-speaking people? even though we can all draw with pencil on paper today, which is clearly a european influence, would you draw the olowo of owo  who is ethnically yoruba to look like prince charles who is ethnically english? no!

There are other aspects of Owo culture that show a Benin influence.  I'm just saying the terracottas do not appear to be one of them.

exotik:

of course, i know it is not homogenous coz no group has a homogenous culture. but why are the supposed influences always claimed to come from the yoruba side? what were the others doing? sleeping? i have even read attempts where yorubas would claim dat the beautiful bini hair style worn by the oba's wives may have been a yoruba influence because some yorubas who were under bini wear it too, but forgeting that some igbos also wear that hair style?

and btw, "ubinu" was always said to be a yoruba word meaning so-called "land of vexation" because oranmiyan could not rule bini due to the angry nature of the people. so when he was leaving, he called  it ile ubini -- the land of vexation. LMAO!! it is only recently i have been reading dat it is actually an itsekiri word and not a yoruba word. so wot does ubinu mean in itsekiri? cos i take it you are itsekhiri?

The English name comes from a Portuguese transcription (Benin) of a local corruption (Bini) of the Itsekiri form (Ubinu) of the Yoruba Ile-Ibinu ("Home of Vexation", a name bestowed on the Edo capital by the irate Ife oba Oranyan in the 12th century.

Note

The Itsekiris speak a language very closely akin to Yoruba and Igala but which has also been significantly influenced by other languages particularly Portuguese, Edo (Benin), English and a few borrowings from neighbouring Ijo and Urhobo languages.


The Olu (king) of Warri is the head of the Itsekiri people. See list below.

Start                      End Ruler
                                        Abejioye
                                        Akenjioye
1710                          Omagboye
1710 c. 1735         Akengboye
1735                  Atogbuwa (Manuel Otobia)
1807                             Erejuwa (Sebastião Otobia)
1807 14 June 1848  Akengbuwa (João) (d. 1848)
1848 1848             Ejo
1848 1851            Iye Idolorusan (Regent)
1851                    Eri (Regent)
                                            Atsego (Regent)
16 Jan 1921                     Okorofianyegbe (Regent)
13 Sep 1917 24 Sep 1932 Dogho Numa (d. 1932)
16 Jan 1921 1929     Vacant
1929 7 Feb 1936     Olagbemi Ewolufu (Regent)
7 Feb 1936              Ginuwa II (Gbesimi Emiko)
2 April 1987             Ogiame Atuwatse II

Notice any Yoruba Names?

exotik:

lakal, twas a typo. so it no longer came from oranmiyan, ryt? or oranmiyan was itsekhiri?

You're not making any sense. What kind of leap of logic is that??

The English name comes from a Portuguese transcription (Benin) of a local corruption (Bini) of the Itsekiri form (Ubinu) of the Yoruba Ile-Ibinu ("Home of Vexation", a name bestowed on the Edo capital by the irate Ife oba Oranyan in the 12th century.

so it was not an itsekiri word? coz from wot u wrote, everybody had their own transcription of the word. so how did it become an itsekiri word when the origin is from oranmiyan who is yoruba?  

and some of those names you posted are a bit edoid

For example the word BINI is from the Itsekhiri's "Ubinu".

lakal:


You're not making any sense. What kind of leap of logic is that??

well, the guy said it was an itsekhiri word only to later say it was a yoruba word. so why cant u guys come up with one story? is it a yoruba word or an itsekhiri word?

There are other aspects of Owo culture that show a Benin influence.

mind sharing? i would genuinely want to know.

exotik:

For example the word BINI is from   the Itsekhiri's "Ubinu".

well, the guy said it was an itsekhiri word only to later say it was a yoruba word. so why cant u guys come up with one story? is it a yoruba word or an itsekhiri word?

Is omo a Yoruba word or an Edo word?

Is biko an Igbo word or an Urhobo word?

Seeing as Yoruba and Itsekiri are very closely related (some Yoruba dialects are extremely similar to Itsekiri), why couldn't it mean the same thing in both?    "Ibinu" in Yoruba simply means "vexation."


You just like to argue.

exotik:

so it was not an itsekiri word? coz from wot u wrote, everybody had their own transcription of the word. so how did it become an itsekiri word when the origin is from oranmiyan who is yoruba?  

and some of those names you posted are a bit edoid

You still don't get it.

The Itsekiris speak a language very closely akin to[b] Yoruba and Igala[/b].

Example the word OLU is a Yoruba name.

But the Olu of Warri is the ruler of the The  .

Notice the first generation Olu of Warri are Yorubas .

Eweka I(son of Oronmiyan) was the first 'Oba   of the Benin Empire.

Most  Itsekiris are are Yorubas, just like the Egun and Ilaje poeple.

^ no, you are the one who dont get it. and i dont care what the itsekhiri speak if it they are yoruba or not. the olukumi speak what is yoruboid but they are igbo.