I thought we should reflect on these verses a little.
If you do sow the seed into your pastor's pocket, why not give to the poor directly.
And what is the bible justification for that.
Please lets be mature in presentation.

HERE IS MINE: opposing.

All the words of Jesus about giving reffer to giving of the poor (not the pastor).

However, because most pastors has made people to believe that when they give seed(bribe God) in the church it will be multiplied  
Greediness wont let most people give to the poor again, they just keep buying private jets for their pastors.


JESUS on how we will be judged on the last day according to how we helped the poor,

Referring to himself as all the poor people in need around us.
"For I was hungry and you gave me food,
I was thirsty and you gave me drink,
I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
I was Unclad and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’

JESUS teaching that to succeed you have to give all you have to the poor and people around you, including all your services and life!

"Whoever wants to be first must be slave of all.
For even the Son of Man did not come to be served,
but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." -Jesus

JESUS teaching that if you expect to make so much money , share the ones you have to others
"So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets." - Jesus

JESUS teaching that the second greatest commandment apart from obeying God's
commands is to help the people around you as much as you help yourself

"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets." - Jesus

Next time your pastor tells you about first seed, his pocket, his private jet and bla bla bla
Ask him what Jesus said about it.

Jesus Teaching that Twisting the Bible is damn dangerous

"I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." - Jesus

Well said, but you forgot to talk about tithes, where pastors do quote from one book in the old testament saying; pay your tithes so that there'll be meat in the house of God, Are they supposed to eat tithes too or give to the needy.

Evidently the teachings of christ is no longer taught in our churches today as it doesn't bring in money to the pastor's pocket. It has been replaced with man made doctrines invented from twisting of scripture which is then used to reap off gullible sheeple.

Thatdave:

If you do sow the seed into your pastor's pocket, why not give to the poor directly.

JESUS teaching that to succeed you have to give all you have to the poor and people around you, including all your services and life!

didn't Jesus receive money ?Why didn't he send them back

Luke 8:3
3 Joanna, whose husband Chusa was Herod's administrator; Susanna; and many other women. They provided financial support for Jesus and his disciples.

Stop using human ideologies for spiritual things. There are different kinds of givings which all have their foundations in Gids word.

It is biblical to give to men of God. And to the poor ,to parents,to God etc. It's important for us to do all.

Church money belongs to church. But whatever is given to the pastor belongs to him. These are 2different things.

Joagbaje:

didn't Jesus receive money ?Why didn't he send them back

Luke 8:3
3 Joanna, whose husband Chusa was Herod's administrator; Susanna; and many other women. They provided financial support for Jesus and his disciples.

Stop using human ideologies for spiritual things.

This verse does not in any way mean they started sowing seed periodically to Jesus disciples expecting financial multiplication.
It does not mean they started providing first fruit.

It doesnt mean they started paying one -tenth of their salary to Jesus and his disciples (instead of the poor).

It simply means that they contributed money(something like offering) for Jesus and his disciples when the need arose.

Paying offering in the church isnt wrong, it helps keep the church going and also feeds and sustains God's ministers.

But the principle of sowing of the seed, as currently twisted,First fruit, bla bla bla was invented.

Remember the Widow's Gift? Mark 12:41-43 , where offering was being collected for the building of the church.

Now see how Jesus Got angry with what men of God converted that line to be:

38.
He also said in His teaching, “Beware of the scribes, who want to go(flex) around in long robes, and who want greetings in the marketplaces,
39. the front seats in the synagogues, and the places of honor at banquets.
40 They devour widows’ houses(robbing the poor by like preaching sowing of the seed to the pastor instead of to the poor) and say long prayers just for show. These will receive harsher punishment.”

My post was based on your idea that money should rather be given to the poor instead of men of God . That's what I was clarifying . Everything has it's place . Giving to God, giving to your pastor , giving to the poor all have their places . One is not prefered above the other

Joagbaje:

My post was based on your idea that money should rather be given to the poor instead of men of God . That's what I was clarifying . Everything has it's place . Giving to God, giving to your pastor , giving to the poor all have their places . One is not prefered above the other

Mr Jo,

I totally understand giving to pastors, atleast you go see them and give them whatever you want.


However, How do you give to God? (God that posesses eveything already)

Or have you got his bank acct?

^^^^
There are several ways you can give to God. Offering is one of them. You give to God in your church.

Jesus said you give to God when you give to the poor.

The book of Proverbs says you give to God when you give to the poor.

Only false teachers and frauds (and their victims/followers) disagree and refuse to see giving to the poor as amounting to giving to God.

Joagbaje:

^^^^
There are several ways you can give to God. Offering is one of them. You give to God in your church.

Mr Jo,

Me I no like your grammatic karate oo.

You give to the church and not to God. (We both know that God dont come down to collect the money, so let common sense prevail)

The money, I assume, then go into the treasury and from the treasury- sighs-  well to the pockets of humans. Either to charity or Charlatans, either way the monies go to humans and not God.

Every giving can be termed as giving to God because it is based on the word of God. But when it comes to specifics there's difference. Giving to poor or parents or to ministers can all be termed as giving to God because it's done by the word. In a sense. Just as rendering service to humanity can be seen as unto God in that same sense. Even the discharge of your official duty is a service unto God. Every sacrifice on our part.

Giving to parents is a spiritual giving to God in that sense but Jesus made the distinction .

Mark 7:11
11 But you say it is perfectly all right for a man to disregard his needy parents, telling them, `Sorry, I can't help you! For I have given to God what I could have given to you.'

Joagbaje:

Every giving can be termed as giving to God because it is based on the word of God. But when it comes to specifics there's difference. Giving to poor or parents or to ministers can all be termed as giving to God because it's done by the word. In a sense. Just as rendering service to humanity can be seen as unto God in that same sense. Even the discharge of your official duty is a service unto God. Every sacrifice on our part.

Giving to parents is a spiritual giving to God in that sense but Jesus made the distinction .

Mark 7:11
11 But you say it is perfectly all right for a man to disregard his needy parents, telling them, `Sorry, I can't help you! For I have given to God what I could have given to you.'

Edit:



When you give to MOG, are you giving to God too?
When you give to corrupt individuals i.e fraudulent police/politician/pastors, are you giving to God too?

Therefore:

1. A person can give first fruits to God by giving it to the poor.

2. A person can give ("pay" "tithes" to God by giving it to the poor.

dare2think:

When you give to MOG, are you giving to God too?

when you give MOG you give to God in that general sense you're looking at it. because it is based on Gods word. But there is difference when it comes to specific.

For example if someone goes to a pastor to say he wants to sow a seed of money. It has to be clear what it is for. If the man says he is sowing into the pastors life ,it is different from giving to God. If it is for God , the pastor sends it to church finance, but if it's for the pastor then there's difference. Church money doesn't belong to the pastor except what an individual gives to him personally. So sowing unto God and sowing unto MOG are different.

In Mark 7, Jesus said people should not use the excuse of "giving to God" when they should be giving to their parents. So, in Jesus' eye, if one's parents are in need, one should give to them (whether it is "first fruit money" or "tithes money" and not rely on the tradition of men that one wants to "give to God" instead. The very thing that Jesus condemned is what the first fruit etc preachers are asking people to do! 

Elsewhere, Jesus made clear that if you give to the poor you give to God. He didn't say it is "general" or "specific"! In Jesus' eyes, giving to the poor is giving to God --- end of story. Jesus did not make a distinction between "church finance" or "gift to the poor". Neither did He say giving to "church finance" is 'specifically' giving to God while giving to the poor is only 'general' and not specifically giving to God.

Proverbs also says giving to the poor is giving to God ---- it does not say that is 'general' or that the 'specific' way to give to God is giving to "church finance".

Back to Jesus: Jesus' own words and emphasis are that giving to the poor is giving to God ----- no matter how much modern "pastors" want to twist things.

dare2think Why are you talking like a carnal man? the pastor is Gods representative here on earth so when you give to him you give to God.

^^^^^
Omopastor, why are you talking like a fraudster? Dont you know we are  all God's children and we dont need to give to charlatans to appease God!!!!

So giving to your parents is charlatans too?

Exodus 20:12
Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

Joagbaje:

when you give MOG you give to God in that general sense you're looking at it. because it is based on Gods word. But there is difference when it comes to specific.

For example if someone goes to a pastor to say he wants to sow a seed of money. It has to be clear what it is for. If the man says he is sowing into the pastors life ,it is different from giving to God. If it is for God , the pastor sends it to church finance, but if it's for the pastor then there's difference. Church money doesn't belong to the pastor except what an individual gives to him personally. So sowing unto God and sowing unto MOG are different.

Utter garbage!!!

Where in the bible did it say you should sow into a minister? This is fraudulent tactic!!.

Joagbaje:

So giving to your parents is charlatans too?

Exodus 20:12
Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

You are joking right?!!!!

Since when do Mog (Man of greed) become your parent?

Did he give birth to you?

dare2think:

Utter garbage!!!
Where in the bible did it say you should sow into a minister? This is fraudulent tactic!!.

Galatians 6:6
But let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.

dare2think:

You are joking right?!!!!
Since when do Mog (Man of greed) become your parent?
Did he give birth to you?

It's not about MOG becoming parent. The point is , God word says to give to parents ,and you have no problem with that . God word also says to give to MOG and you have problem with that and you say MOG is chatlatan for reviving money. That's why I asked are parents charlatans too for recieving money? . Since since both giving were taught in Gods word.

God's word does not say give first fruits to a minister or into church for that matter!

God's word does not say pay/give tithes to a minister or into church for that matter!

Therefore a person can choose how he gives his first fruits or tithes to God ------ one major way that Jesus Christ said it should be done is by giving it to the poor!

First fruit / tithes does not belong to the pastor. What belong to the pastor is what God leads individual to give him by free will

Tell me,

Where did God give the instruction to give to a self-acclaimed man of God?

I need specifics only

I gave a scripture before

And where did God say first fruits are to be given into "church" or to go into "church finances"?

And where did God say "tithes" are to be given into "church" or to go into "church finances"?


I repeat: under the Bible, whether it is first fruits or it is tithes, it can be given to God by giving it to the poor; that is what the Bible teaches.

Theres another thread on first fruits . This thread is on sowing of seeds

The two threads are associated; one is a spin off of the other and the OP was first posted on the other.

Those arguing on the other thread that first fruits cannot be given to parents and must go into "church" are those also emphasising sowing "into pastor's life" on this thread.

We also know other aspects of the false teaching from elsewhere e.g. that sowing into "pastor's life" is what brings "prosperity" to the sower with the concomitant that sowing to the poor does not bring "prosperity" though it might have its own "reward".

Point of correction, the money isn't for the pastors, it is for the expenses of the church

dare2think:

Mr Jo,

Me I no like your grammatic karate oo.

You give to the church and not to God. (We both know that God dont come down to collect the money, so let common sense prevail)

The money, I assume, then go into the treasury and from the treasury- sighs-  well to the pockets of humans. Either to charity or Charlatans, either way the monies go to humans and not God.

Joagbaje and co.

If i put you guys in the era of Jesus, He would call you guys fraudsters and drive you out of the temple with your table upon your head.

Funny thread

OPPOSING

Quote from OP

Please lets be mature in presentation.

I'll try my best.

Joagbaje:

didn't Jesus receive money ?Why didn't he send them back

Luke 8:3
3 Joanna, whose husband Chusa was Herod's administrator; Susanna; and many other women. They provided financial support for Jesus and his disciples.

Stop using human ideologies for spiritual things. There are different kinds of givings which all have their foundations in Gids word.
It is biblical to give to men of God. And to the poor ,to parents,to God etc. It's important for us to do all.
Church money belongs to church. But whatever is given to the pastor belongs to him. These are 2different things.

Joagbaje:

Every giving can be termed as giving to God because it is based on the word of God. But when it comes to specifics there's difference. Giving to poor or parents or to ministers can all be termed as giving to God because it's done by the word. In a sense. Just as rendering service to humanity can be seen as unto God in that same sense. Even the discharge of your official duty is a service unto God. Every sacrifice on our part.

Giving to parents is a spiritual giving to God in that sense but Jesus made the distinction .

Mark 7:11
11 But you say it is perfectly all right for a man to disregard his needy parents, telling them, `Sorry, I can't help you! For I have given to God what I could have given to you.'

Let's ignore your obvious contradiction.
No one's arguing if it's biblical to give to Men of God. I think these thread focuses on 'SEED' giving - a concept whereby you give expecting a return. Mr. Jo, is that giving in the actual Christian sense? Saying you're giving a seed means you expect a return. Isn't this the philosophy most pastors spread today? Is IT BIBLICALLY correct?
Money donated to a Church or given to church is surely the church's business. What we are focusing on here is the means through which the money is gotten.

TBH, I hate your style of picking specific verses and blending them to support your point. I would call it outright twisting. You are not the ONLY custodian of the Bible, Mr. Jo.

Mark 7

1 The Pharisees and some of the teachers of the law who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus
2 and saw some of his disciples eating food with hands that were defiled, that is, unwashed.
3 (The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing, holding to the tradition of the elders.
4 When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups, pitchers and kettles.[a])
5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?”
6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’

8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”
[b]9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[c] your own traditions!
10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’[d] and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’[e]
11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)—
12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother.
13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

I wouldn't like to get more involved in this arguments. I wouldn't call them pointless (I've actually learnt a lot from the religious section of NL). I will just ask Mr. Jo a simple question.

HAS 'GIVING' IN THE BIBLE BEEN HIJACKED TODAY? DO YOU BELIEVE THAT NO 'MAN OF GOD' IN NIGERIA TODAY IS A CONMAN?