I have no desire to make windows into mens souls -
Queen Elizabeth, addressing the catholic/protestant conflict of her times.

There is only one Christ, Jesus, one faith. All else is a dispute over trifles. 

(Elizabeth's response to the Catholic/Protestant divide)

Smart woman, that Elizabeth was. What is it exactly that she was afraid of within the souls of men that made her shut the window and refuse to allow her subjects to bring their religious convictions to political discussions? At the same time, across the channel, in France what Elizabeth was trying to avoid was exploding right in the face of her contemporary Queen Catherine (de Medici) of France. It would still explode in England but thanks to Elizabeth's wilyness she avoided it in her lifetime. She famously tricked all the catholic ministers into a room and locked the doors while parliament was voting over crucial reforms. After the voting finished decisively in her favour she opened the door and released them. It was too late for them to influence the proceedings.


What Elizabeth had realized early on was the bloodymindedness and irrational fervour of religious conviction and it's power to destroy a nation. She had absolutely no intention of engaging with it in any way, shape, or form. No debates, no conversations, no suggestions, nothing. If you wanted to discuss anything with her based on your religious inclination you were wasting your time, she didn't want to listen.


I am starting this thread on the Religious wars of Europe because I think that there is a good chance that Nigeria is heading towards it's own Wars of Religion and it will do us all good to acquaint ourselves with the ins and outs of such a conflict.

So we all know that Europe (western europe) was once all Roman Catholic. Eastern Europe had it's orthodox churches, but they do not come into the equation at all in this matter. We are talking only of Western Europe. Of course, we can never separate politics from any war, and there is a big political component to all these wars of religion, so it is not just religion that is the matter on the table. Similarly in Nigeria there is also a big political component to our religious conflicts and in Africa the bedrock of politics is Tribalism. Tribalism will play a big part in Nigeria's religious conflicts. Igbos are mostly Catholics. The northerners are mostly Muslims. Yorubas are split between muslim and protestant christianity with the muslims being the majority but the christians wielding a lot of power in the civil service and education. All the other tribes fit somewhere in one or the other of these camps.


So let's start at the beginning: Martin Luther, a catholic monk, wanted the catholic church to stop some of it's practices. Especially the lucrative practice of selling indulgences. Luther had no intention of breaking away from the catholic church however the Church's reaction to his edicts forced him to break away. Pope Leo sef was too hasty and greedy. He simply saw Luther as a guy that was trying to pour san' san' inside his gari and over reacted. Looking back on it, he should have just gently invited Luther to come to Rome and discuss the matter with him, then nab him when he got to Rome and torture him to death. But instead he started freaking out and issuing threats while the guy was still far away in the safety of Northern Germany.


Northern Germany, this is the political situation. All the area that we call Germany today, as well as Austria and some other lands was a political entity called the Holy Roman Empire. This is the most misnamed country that has ever existed because, as many people pointed out, It was not Holy, It was not Roman, and it was not an Empire.

As we can recall, after the fall of Rome western Europe had descended into anarchy, and out of this anarchy rose a barbarian Frankish king called Charlemagne who conquered much of western europe and established an empire. The pope at the time, in the year 800AD on christmas day, crowned him Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire whose job was to protect the Catholic church. Whether Charlemagne wanted this title or this job is a matter of debate, but certainly it wasn't politically expedient for him and quite likely the pope pulled a fast one on him.

Anyhow by the 16th century the Holy Roman emperor was still the official protector (military muscle) of the Catholic church though the empire itself was much reduced to being just the Germanic states, Austria and Spain. France was a new rising power in Europe. Meanwhile, each of the provinces in the HRE (holy roman empire) was ruled by Princes that were subject to the Emperor. Just like France was divided into Duchies ruled by Dukes who were subject to their overlord the King. In Europe in general that was how things were, there was a King, and under the King there were nobles who were subject to the King. This set the stage for political conflict as the Nobles strive to free themselves from the influence of the King.

The Princes of the northern German states were trying to free themselves from the influence of the Holy Roman Emperor and establish the right to rule their own provinces without his interference. Well, along came Martin Luther and gave them the perfect excuse to break away from the Emperor. Emperor was protector of the Catholic Church abi, so the Emperor must seek out Luther and kill him, however the Northern Princes are protecting Luther. The battle lines are drawn. The Princes claim that they have a right to determine the religion that is practiced in their provinces, while the Emperor says they must be Catholics and that Luther must stop this 'nonsense'.

Naturally they went to war and the Northern Princes won and established the principle of Cuius Regio, Eius Religio, which is Latin for 'Whose Region, His Religion'. In other words the Religion of the Prince of a region will determine the Religion that will be practiced in that Religion. Of course this was just between Lutheranism and Catholicism. The Calvinists haven't gotten involved yet.


Part II coming soon. . . . .

PAIO, it was the spambot that initially tagged/deleted your topic. Should be fine now.

Thank you o JeSoul. Let me try to put the link here and see if it will work this time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuius_regio_eius_religio

Good, but I'll have to come back tomorrow to continue.

Great stuff/

. . . contd, Okay, so at last there was peace in the HRE thanks to the cuius regio, eius religio. The german princes have wrested a certain amount of authority away from the Holy Roman Emperor. Yet the same dynamic was occurring all over the rest of Europe. That is the political shift of the provinces freeing themselves from the centralised rule of the monarch.

It is very important to consider the political aspects because even in Nigeria Religious conflicts are stoked by political leaders who use it acquire more power for themselves. There are people in Nigeria's govt that support Boko Haram. There are people who stand to gain if nigeria is destabilised by religion.

Remember that the Holy Roman Emperor whose family, the Habsburg's also rule Spain therefore also the netherlands which is a Spanish colony was probably the greatest power in Europe at that time and all the other kingdoms were afraid of them. This is the reason why I believe that a unified Germany ( the modern country we know today) is a threat to the rest of Europe just by simply existing. But that is another story for another time.

So we have 2 rising countries on the make, England and France. They are starting to build ships and to sail across the world and explore and trade. But Spain (HRE) has got there ahead of them. Spain has the greatest navy in the world at that time and has new colonies all across the new continent, America. Spain is Catholic, England is Protestant. Spain owns the Netherlands. Netherlands is just across the water from England. So naturally England is paranoid that the greatest power in Europe is its next door neighbour, plus Spain is threatening to invade England on behalf of the Pope to restore it back to Roman Catholicism. Plus England is full of Roman Catholics who would love Spain to Attack and restore england to Catholicism. You see protestantism was enforced on the English people by Henry the VIII. I don't think that the tensions from this have fully gone away yet from the C of E.

All this political tension caused Queen Elizabeth I to take a very risky gamble which luckily for her paid off. Now we are going to see the effect of foreign factors in the development of Religious wars in a country. Remember that today in Africa countries like Saudi Arabia sponsor a lot of islamic activity and terrorism. it is not just because of their religious fervour, there are also political gains.


Iconoclasm: this is an interesting event that occurs every so often in christianity that actually deserves a thread of it own. In fact I believe that it occurs in every historical process, but that is going too deep. Let us just limit ourselves to the iconoclasm of the Netherlands in the 16th century. Iconoclasm means the destruction of Images. This is when images thought to be idolatrous are destroyed in a mood of public hysteria.

In the HRE an uneasy peace was established between the Catholics and the Lutherans, Cuius Regio, Eius Religio. Each town had it's own religion and both religions could not be practiced together in any one town. However what nobody saw coming was the fact that once one faction is allowed to break away from the church it was going to open a flood gate of new theological inventions and denominations. Like I have argued so often here, the only limit to the doctrines and theologies that can be fabricated from a text based religion, is the limit of people's imaginations. If the Bible is the sole authority (SOLA SCRIPTURA) in religion then in the end there will be as many denominations of christianity as there are christians.

Step on the scene, John Calvin. Here is how he described his revelation:

God by a sudden conversion subdued and brought my mind to a teachable frame, which was more hardened in such matters than might have been expected from one at my early period of life. Having thus received some taste and knowledge of true godliness, I was immediately inflamed with so intense a desire to make progress therein, that although I did not altogether leave off other studies, yet I pursued them with less ardour.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Calvin

Or to put it in Nairalandspeak, The holy spirit spoke to him. Yes, the same holy spirit that speaks contradictory things to various christians. Now he knew the 'truth' and he pursued it was such an arduous violence that arguably surpassed the Catholics own violent attempts to subdue 'heresies'.

Anyhow, Calvinism caught on in Netherlands and many of the nobles there converted. Then they rose in an iconoclastic hysteria and went about desecrating churches and images of the Catholic church. The violence against Catholics was so intense that Spain could not just sit back and do nothing. The Pope also wanted to see something done about it. But now the Dutch nobles are saying that the King of Spain cannot tell them what to do in their own Territory. The same dynamic again of King versus Nobles, using religion to stir up the conflict.

So how does Queen Elizabeth come into this? Remember that the English are afraid of the might of Spain, and the Netherlands is just across the water from England so England is a sitting target. Politically speaking it is in England's favour if the Dutch could get rid of the rule of the Spanish, then Netherlands would just be one small independent country that was not a threat to England.
However the situation was very dicey for Queen Elizabeth who was herself a monarch with nobles under her. Anything that encouraged nobles anywhere to overthrow their Feudal master, the King, could get infectious and spread even to England. Elizabeth therefore hated the very idea of rebellious nobles. Yet the opportunity was too attractive, a chance to break the power of Spain.

In the end she decided not to send troops but to send military aid in the form of supplies and money to the Dutch nobles. This aid made all the difference in the struggle of the Calvinists against the Catholic Spanish King. When Spain realised that they were losing the Netherlands due to the aid from England they decided to nip the problem in the bud. An invasion of England.

Spain sent it's Armada, the greatest naval force in the world at that time to subdue England and bring her back to Catholicism. (remember also that there were many English folk that had been praying for this). So what exactly happened to the Armada? There are many stories, but one that doesn't ever get into the history books but actually happened involves the Occult. This is the funny thing about christianity in Europe. All the royal courts of europe had a court astrologer/ court magician etc. Many had more than one. All this while they were christians. Even the Pope had his astrologers.

Emperors and popes became votaries of astrology—Charles IV and V, and Popes Sixtus IV, Julius II, Leo X and Paul III. When these rulers lived astrology was, so to say, the regulator of official life; it is a fact characteristic of the age, that at the papal and imperial courts ambassadors were not received in audience until the court astrologer had been consulted. Regiomontanus, the distinguished Bavarian mathematician practised astrology, which from that time on assumed the character of a bread-winning profession, and as such was not beneath the dignity of so lofty an intellect as Kepler. Thus had astrology once more become the foster-mother of all astronomers. In the judgment of the men of the Renaissance—and this was the age of a Nicholas Copernicus—the most profound astronomical researches and theories were only profitable insofar as they aided in the development of astrology. Among the zealous patrons of the art were the Medici. Catherine de' Medici made astrology popular in France. She erected an astrological observatory for herself near Paris, and her court astrologer was the celebrated "magician" Michel de Notredame (Nostradamus) who in 1555 published his principal work on astrology—a work still regarded as authoritative among the followers of his art. Another well-known man was Lucas Gauricus the court astrologer of Popes Leo X and Clement VII who published a large number of astrological treatises.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_astrology

In the history of Occult one of the greatest occult masters was the English court magician called John Dee. John Dee was a very interesting character who was also an english spy. It is John Dee who originally was given the code name 007 which everybody recognises today as the codename for a certain popular fictional spy.
http://www.sirbacon.org/links/dblohseven.html

Queen Elizabeth asked John Dee to do something about the Spanish Armada coming that was certain to defeat England. John Dee then performed a ritual for raising a storm. It worked. A mighty storm arose which destroyed the greater part of the Armada and swept the rest off their course. By the time the rest of the vastly depleted fleet reached the shores of England it was small fry for Sir Walter Raleigh to sail out and defeat it. History books talk about the storm but they never mention that the storm was raised intentionally by English occultic agents.

In one fell swoop the threat of Spain was destroyed, and that was the end, not just of that episode, but of Spain's position as a naval power. And the beginning of England's reign as the longest ever naval power in the world.

Rule, Britannia! Britannia rule the Waves
England never never never shall be Slaves.

-abi o!!

Netherlands overthrew the shackles of Spain and became an independent country.

This phase of Europe's religious wars shows clearly how foreign powers can get involved in a country's domestic issues in a bid to weaken that country. Similarly in Nigeria there are many foreign elements with a lot to gain if we are at loggerheads religiously.

What about the crusades and the 30 years war

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years'_War

chukwudi44: What about the crusades and the 30 years war

They are coming, we are following the story chronologically. Next I want to talk about what happened to the French and the unfortunate reign of Catherine de Medici when the Catholics and the Huguenots nearly tore the country apart.


Then the 30 years war . . . . I don't want to talk about the Crusades because that was in medieval times and it wasn't a civil war.

Then I want to talk about what I call the Atheist Wars, which I think is very important because a lot of atheist like to go on about religion causing too much wars in history when some of the most violent wars were a result of Atheist proselytism. It is in actual fact the[b] issue of Religion[/b] that drives men to such violent fervour, not theism particularly. And the Atheists have been just as guilty and the sentiments that bring such violence about can be clearly seen in the behaviour of many of the Atheist on NL.

Of course they are not known as the atheist wars but that is what I call them. Afterall what would you call the Napoleonic wars that ravaged europe in the late 18th and 19th centuries. France overthrew the monarchy and the church and created a secular republic based on humanism. But it didn't stop there, it decided that it was it's duty to spread this irreligion to all of Europe and they had a brilliant general to do just that, Napoleon Bonaparte.

But small by small. We'll get there.

[size=64pt]THERE IS ONLY ONE SOLUTION TO END RELIGIOUS WAR IN NIGERIA. WE MUST ALL UNITE ON ONE TYPE OF RELIGION! [/size]

The solution is respect.
Until it is learned that everyone tioene hacere right to choice, and that our rights end where the rights of others begins, it will be difficult.
I do not believe that religious differences are resolved by killing people, burning churches or synagogues, or despising and sorcerers call the traditionalists, but mutual respect.
It IS posible kill a Catholic, an evangelist, a Muslim, a traditionalist, but IDEAS CAN NOT BE KILLED, JUST BECAUSE IDEAS DO NOT DIE .

Throughout history, religion has been the single greatest source of human-caused wars, suffering, and misery. In the name of God, more suffering has been inflicted than by any other manmade cause. Does that strike you as odd? And if that statement is true, does it not follow that "peace on earth, good will toward men" demands the death of God?

Unitedsatanist: Throughout history, religion has been the single greatest source of human-caused wars, suffering, and misery. In the name of God, more suffering has been inflicted than by any other manmade cause. Does that strike you as odd? And if that statement is true, does it not follow that "peace on earth, good will toward men" demands the death of God?

It's a good reason, and I may share.
But may be important to know that God we speak, because there are "gods" that have eliminated entire villages, and even destroyed all his creation (flood) ... which have spread the "theory of top race" ....
Other gods ordered burning churches, abusing women and blow themselves up killing people in his name.
Yes, I think there are gods who should die ...
top

Mr Ptolomeus u have spoken well but this blames u are pushing on the head of the god's is too heavy ! whatever that is happening in the world either Good or Evil the JOHOVAH God that the Christian bible wrote about is responsible as he's claimed to be the creator of both good and evil.

GOD should be killed first...hence he's responsible for every evil that is going on in the entire World . thanks u my dear and for your understanding.

yes jehovah and jesus destroy the world and burnt Pagan temples and killed our peoples and make us slaves.

Unitedsatanist: Throughout history, religion has been the single greatest source of human-caused wars, suffering, and misery. In the name of God, more suffering has been inflicted than by any other manmade cause. Does that strike you as odd? And if that statement is true, does it not follow that "peace on earth, good will toward men" demands the death of God?

I don't agree. And that is why I started this thread.

Pastor AIO:

I don't agree. And that is why I started this thread.

Pastor AIO:
I am starting this thread on the Religious wars of Europe because I think that there is a good chance that Nigeria is heading towards it's own Wars of Religion and it will do us all good to acquaint ourselves with the ins and outs of such a conflict.

Don't you think the death of religion in Nigeria esp, would be the death of God as we 'know' it?

musKeeto:



Don't you think the death of religion in Nigeria esp, would be the death of God as we 'know' it?

That would depend on how YOU 'know' it.

Pastor AIO:
That would depend on how YOU 'know' it.

Of course, when I say 'we', I mean in a general term...

[size=13pt]^{Honey , God is so useless in the World . each of us know that he's imaginary presence is bring so many problems enslaving people's mind not to learn about his fake identity .}[/size]

Unitedsatanist: Mr Ptolomeus u have spoken well but this blames u are pushing on the head of the god's is too heavy ! whatever that is happening in the world either Good or Evil the JOHOVAH God that the Christian bible wrote about is responsible as he's claimed to be the creator of both good and evil.

GOD should be killed first...hence he's responsible for every evil that is going on in the entire World . thanks u my dear and for your understanding.

hahahahahaha i just could'nt help myself from laughing at your ignorance.
Ask your master lucifer how he felt when Jesus christ of nazareth 2000+ years ago decended down to your master's territory and beat him up, binding him and his forces and taking from him the possesion of the key to hades and embarrased him before his demons, why could'nt he stop him from gaining the victory?
Now go tell your master lucifer that he's a loser, he has always been a loser and he will always be, Jesus has dealt him a heavy punch he can never recovver from.

And again why attcking Jehovah? Why not attack allah the god of the muslims, or i guess you know for yourself the truth that there's only one true God and Jehovah is his identity.
Hahaha i still pity you, how dare you wage war against the creator of the whole universe? Has lucifer so brainwashed you that much?

You cant even stand an angel of light, talkless of fighting aginst a born again child of God, much more God himself.

Dont get me upset else i would unleash the wrath of Jehovah on you and cut your life shut.
I guess you know the consequencies of that.

You'd better watch your tongue!

Ogaga4Luv: [size=13pt]^{Honey , God is so useless in the World . each of us know that he's imaginary presence is bring so many problems enslaving people's mind not to learn about his fake identity .}[/size]

And as for you ogaga, we all know your blabing wont change a thing and neither would it limit Jesus from being the everlasting father and prince of peace which he realy is.
Go tell lucifer he's nothing but a loser. And he knows it for himself, just that he does not admit it publicly, tell him his time is short and his reign as the God of this world are numbered. (As if he never already knew that already)

joe4christ:

And as for you ogaga, we all know your blabing wont change a thing and neither would it limit Jesus from being the everlasting father and prince of peace which he realy is.
Go tell lucifer he's nothing but a loser. And he knows it for himself, just that he does not admit it publicly, tell him his time is short and his reign as the God of this world are numbered. (As if he never already knew that already)

I can not believe what I'm reading!
joe4christ:Go tell lucifer he's nothing but a loser.

Where can we find Lucifer to say something?
If you believe that there really is Lucifer, merit tell that stupid?
Why not go yourself to the church and directly tells Lucifer that?
Ahhhh blind fanaticism!

.

When I called this thread Wars of Religion I didn't mean that you all should start a religious war on the thread. Please!!

Ptolomeus:

I can not believe what I'm reading!
joe4christ:Go tell lucifer he's nothing but a loser.

Where can we find Lucifer to say something?
If you believe that there really is Lucifer, merit tell that stupid?
Why not go yourself to the church and directly tells Lucifer that?
Ahhhh blind fanaticism!

Maybe you should ask Ogaga4luv and Unitedsatanist to tell you more about satan, and if you realy want to meet lucifer in person they can help book a meeting for the both of you, maybe then you would believe me cos i'm not sure your shallow mind could reasonably grasp the fact that we aint joking here, so dont get entangled on what you're not ready for.

PAGAN 9JA:
[size=14pt]THERE IS ONLY ONE SOLUTION TO END RELIGIOUS WAR IN NIGERIA. WE MUST ALL UNITE ON ONE TYPE OF RELIGION! [/size]

This might actually exacerbate the problem. How do you intend to bring about this 'One Type of Religion'?

joe4christ:

Maybe you should ask Ogaga4luv and Unitedsatanist to tell you more about satan, and if you realy want to meet lucifer in person they can help book a meeting for the both of you, maybe then you would believe me cos i'm not sure your shallow mind could reasonably grasp the fact that we aint joking here, so dont get entangled on what you're not ready for.

Joe, you sound like a deluded guy, but that is not an issue here. We are discussing something entirely different. Why don't you open your own thread and chase after Lucifer on that one.

Religion will always cause war and division. Most christians and muslims deny this fact.

Religion is a tool. Christianity and islam have been used to enslave people and also to free people.


The moment we accept this as a fact, we would all be better off

A wise man, whose name i cannot remember, once wrote that humankind wil never know freedom until the last king is strangled with
the entrails of the last priest.

plaetton: A wise man, whose name i cannot remember, once wrote that humankind wil never know freedom until the last king is strangled with
the entrails of the last priest.

You mean when all humankind is dead? Cos as long as there are humans, there'll be leaders.. Either by family relationship, age or societal status

musKeeto:
You mean when all humankind is dead? Cos as long as there are humans, there'll be leaders.. Either by family relationship, age or societal status

King is not equal to leaders