ImembaN:
...
I sent you a message...via email...
I hope you don't mind

Got it. I sent a reply.

cheruv:

Can you send me the links to these works so that I can download them?
I seem to have issues locating them online

Sure. I certainly don’t mind sharing with you. These sources have not yet entered public domain though, so you will not be able to find a digital copy of the full text. You should be able to read snippets of them on Google Books, but to read the full text, you will need to physically visit some libraries in person. Library of Congress (if you are in the U.S.) or the University of Cambridge or Oxford (if you are in the U.K).

Unfortunately, these places don’t allow you to check the books out and leave. You will have to read them within the vicinity. I don’t have any physical or digital copies myself (otherwise I’d have shared them in my DropBox for Igbo History and Language Studies). The only way I was able to read the full texts myself was when I visited the Library of Congress in the U.S.

Depending on where you went to school however, your university may have a relationship with other universities that might carry a copy of the full text. You may have to put in a request through whatever inter-university checkout system that is available to you.

Snippets of Afigbo’s Ropes of Sand work. https://www.google.com/books/edition/Ropes_of_Sand/NO4JAQAAIAAJ?hl=en

A re-published version of Talbot and Mulhall’s Physical Anthropology of Southern Nigeria. https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Physical_Anthropology_of_Southern_Ni/QTFekkFi_GkC?hl=en

Snippets of Akwaranwa’s publication on Ngwa and Ukwa politico-cultural history. https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_Politico_cultural_History_of_Ngwa_and/mpIxAAAAIAAJ?hl=en

Ekealterego:
And you know what? I understand Ngwa 100%, in fact no Igbo man from any corner of Igbo land that will not understand Ngwa, but he willfully write unnecessary twists and self-generated spellings and alphabets to trick you into thinking otherwise.

Oh boy. Here we go again. Yeah, at this point, you all aren't going to get another response from me. I am not willing to expend my stamina beyond this point.

Ekealterego:
To tackle to issues here.

1. Can you mention just one memoir from New Kalabar and Bonny between 1700 - 1810? Just one! This is except for Barbot article on "Old Calabar" in 1706?
Barbot was in Old Calabar, "Dony (Andoni), cricke/creek, Bandy (Bonny) and around the area.
Is there any other account or recorded and preserved memoir?

one laden with ethnological accounts.


2. I have referenced and uploaded all Talbot said about Ndoki and there is no place where it mentioned Ndoki being a relatively recent settlement. Talbot even being the oldest of most of the excerpts I uploaded.

ChinenyeN:
Then I implore you to indulge yourself in reading the bibliographies of these text to find the references you are looking for.

I will not get into a discussion of attrition with you all. Go and read the bibliographies.

Igboid:
Madam. Ibu ogbu oge.
Ijiro Okwu.

I maala bya agu ta i maa? It's really not that hard, my friend.

If you're patient enough to wait for me to paste screenshots, then you're patient enough to search up the digitized works by the author, dates and publication names I provided. It's not that hard. Feel free to demand as much as you want, but I won't go out of my way to provide more than what I believe I need to.

Igboid:
The Onus is for you to provide it here for us.
You are the one making the claim.
The burden of proof rests squarely on you.

I have already provided that. Unless you want to proclaim now that you do not know how the academia works. Enyi, just feel free to go and peer-review the already peer-reviewed works of these authors and see what their bibliographies list. It's not that hard.

9Pluto:
This doesn't satisfy my curiosity neither does it do justice to the debate. You oldest reference is barely 50 years ago and it mostly rely on oral history which is flawed for obvious reasons. In my opinion it comes with a lot of burden.

Then I implore you to indulge yourself in reading the bibliographies of these text to find the references you are looking for.

Ekealterego:
These are very recent publications.

Where are the historical references?

What does the phrase mean?

Who established this link ethnographically first?

All our reference here came from 1800s or before 1906.
Algoa's reference from 1970 just at the end of the war is laughable for obvious reasons that we know.
Yeah, you have other references from 2011... Do you have older references? before 1910 at least.

You can't possibly think that these references do not also base their works on other, older references as well, both administrative sources, Native Court era documentation, documentary evidence from Portuguese and Spanish traders, etc. The references I gave are due to their nature in providing the chronology and summary of the events. If you seek specific details, feel free to read the bibliographies of these texts as any normal academic would do.

Ekealterego:
1. Your first assertion is correct, Ottams were different. However, Clarke acknowledged the differences in 3 of the "districts". The ones close to the Annangs , Ibibio and the ones close to the Efiks and then the Igbo regions and the languages collected from these different places differs. The one closer to the Igbos have some Igbo elements already.

It's like we're saying the same thing here. You're simply rehashing my statement.

Ekealterego:
2. No, memoir was explored in that area within the 1700s after Barbot in 1699 and 1705. Except secondary reports from others like Captain Williams but writing from Guinea in 1730-1734.

Maybe some publications in Sierra Leone which was also vague.

The very first exploration after Barbot "onsite" ethnography was in 1823. 120 years later!! This was by Captain Adams in 1823!!

Nobody really started recording Igbos separately as sub-groups until much later. Even the "Bretches" who were considered somewhat "different" because they were notorious for planning uprising and taking over slave ships, were just titled Ichi men.

The studies of specific Igbo sub groups and the differentiations only started around 1830-1840s!!! So, I don't understand where you are getting your theories from.

The very first study of Igbos in Igboland or observation of Igbo within their native area or near their native area was Barbot in 1699. He recorded them as "Hickbaus" or "Heebaus". So, tell me how you knew the subgroups?

Although in Sierra Leone, at first they introduce each other by the name of their towns but OTHERS called them Ibos. They didn't have any choice than to come together because others knew they were the same. The sense of that national cohesion became stronger. It was recorded that the Eboes often "banded together". You think others know the difference?

It seems you misunderstand the point of my statement. The point is simply this: Europeans, due to their extensive slave trading contact with Kalabari and then Bonny, were not ignorant of which groups from the interior. In fact, the Europeans did not need to venture into the interior to get information about these communities, because they could record all they needed from their dealings at Kalabari and Bonny slave markets. Between the 16th - 18th centuries, virtually every group within the Lower Niger passed through Kalabari and Bonny slave markets. Europeans purchased them, catalogued and documented them. These documents include reports and memoirs.

Ekealterego:
3. Ndoki is not recent. At least, the very very first book that described individual dialects and places within the "Igbo country" recorded Ngwa and Ndoki clearly... They were numerous and already an old cohesive people by that time. They are not as "recent" as you are making it out to be...

I've dived into this subject multiple times here on NL and also provided recommendations for people to use in researching these points. I won't debate this with you. Rather, I'll simply make the following recommendations.

Afigbo's writings within the Ropes of Sand serialization.
Talbot and Mulhall's works on Physical Anthropology in the Lower Niger region.
Akwaranwa's publication on the politico-cultural history of the Ngwa and Ukwa regions.

9Pluto:
You have an interesting submission. But I think it would be more reasonable to provide supporting literatures.
I would soon get the actual ijaw pronunciation or spelling of the title as I came across it during my research.

From the works of Charles Ogan (1980s), Finapiri (2001), Alagoa & Fombo (1960s) and Nzewuwa (1980s), among others, it is well-established that the Amanyanabo system is a modern monarchy system that first came about in the 17th century among most Eastern Ijaw communities.

Nzewuwa (1983) showed that the House System and a feudal/factional kingship system already existed in the Elem Kalabari area. Kalabari oral traditions and documentary evidence from European traders suggests that these institutions came to be in active practice by the 17th century. Additionaly, Amakiri I (the first of the modern Kalabari monarchs), is recollected as becoming the first "overall Amanyanabo", creating the modern Kalabari dynasty and galvanizing the Kalabari kingdom. This tradition of Amakiri I becoming the first "overall Amanyanabo" suggests the presence of other feudal kings (at least some, not all) going by "Amanyanabo" (Alagoa, 1970s, 2005).

Unlike the series of events/oral traditions of Kalabari, the picture was rather different for Okrika. Charles Ogan (1980s) did a decent job in marking down a chronology for the adoption of both the House System and the Amanyanabo System within Okrika (which Charles Ogan refers to as Amanyanaboship). Charles shows that the Amanyanabo institution did not exist in Okrika prior to its adopted in the seventeeth century. The first Amanyanabo of Okrika (Ado I) was installed as part of the ongoing effort to free Okrika from Bonny's political and economic authority.

Finapiri (2001) researched and collected Bonny oral traditions which credit Perekule as having brought drastic changes to the kingship system in Bonny in the 18th century, in which Perekule was officially proclaimed as the "Amanyanabo", starting the new Amanyanabo dynasty in Bonny. For Bonny, both the House System and the Amanyanabo system were imported between the late 17th to early 18th centuries (Alagoa 1971, Oriji 2011).

Well, I find much of what the OP has written to be more or less agreeable. It's mostly rehashing the writings, journals, memoirs of traders during those days, though some of it is still debatable in some circles. Aside from the Amanyanabo bit, nothing is outlandish here. Nice work OP.

9Pluto:
It might interest you to know that the title Amanyanabo use by ijaws originated from Bonny. The igbo interpretation means, “The town/community of 2 kings/persons”.

No, this would be incorrect. It's actually well established that the Amanyanabo system in Bonny comes from Kalabari. Okrika and Bonny adopted the Amanyanabo system by the 17th century. It is an Ijaw expression, not Igbo.

Igboid:
Either this or the Ottam were another proto Cross River group Indigenous to the area currently called Ndokiland, and Bonny, and Opobo, that the Ndoki people assimilated when they arrived the area.

I was going to remark on this, but it seems you corrected yourself. This would be it. I can provide a bit more context. The Otam as a people are from the Cross River region. They were decimated during the slave trade and there would be various small pockets of them outside of their homeland in Cross River. The Otam were not Ndoki.

There are a number of things we can look at to determine this, especially by examining the reports and memoirs of various ship captains, missionaries etc.

To first thing to note, the existence of Ndoki as a community is new. You won't see this name in any reports or memoirs written before the late 18th century. Instead, you will see Ndoki acknowledged in a number of reports much later in the 19th century, and where Ndoki does show up, it is easily identified in ship reports, memoirs and missionary journals as part of the soon-to-be-identified "Ibo country".

The second thing to note is that Otam is never conflated with Ndoki in any of these writings. In fact, Otam shows up earlier in many reports, because Otam people were a heavy source or slaves shipped out of the Bight of Bonny. This means the Otam people were obviously well-known in Bonny, and we see no documentation where Bonny people confuse Otam with Ndoki or otherwise relate Otam with Ndoki.

The third thing is that as a consequence of having very intimate dealings with Bonny, Europeans also would not have confused Otam with Ndoki. In fact, I've seen someone (or some people) in thread severally post screenshots of the writings of Rev. John Clarke to talk about Otam. I do not know those who posted the screenshots actually ever read the work by him, but he distinguishes Otam from Ndoki. Some brief bio on Rev. Clarke. He actually never stepped foot on Bonny (or Nigeria for that matter, if I recall correctly). The closest he got was to Bioko (Fernando Po), but in 1840s, even he could tell the difference between Ndoki and Otam, meaning that the distinction was common knowledge.

So the excerpt that someone has used to identify Otam as Igbo people is actually a misnomer. It is likely the case of assimilation, due to having been decimated by the slave trade and needing to take refuge in other parts of the Lower Niger where they settled.

We can trace the change from Obigbo to Oyigbo and not the other way around. In 1979, Melford Okilo was elected as governor of Rivers State. It's stated that in order to decentralize the economy and not make P.H. the central economic place in Rivers state, his administration commissioned the establishment of several new "economic towns". As part of that commission, a town was also supposed to be created from land acquired/leased from the "Obigbo" migrant settlement area.

This general information is found in several sources printed between 1979 and 1985.

In 1981 (I think; this may need to be double-checked), the Rivers State Progress Reports (that were used to record the progress of developing these new towns), lists "Oyigbo". These progress reports were part of the effort to satisfy the requirements of the Third National Development Plan.

The African Guide Company published its article in 1983 and noted Oyigbo as the name of the new town from "Obigbo".

The West Africa Publishing Company Ltd also published a simliar article the year before (1982) in which they noted "Oyigbo formerly Obigbo" (directly quoted from the article).

The dates for these publications (among others) allows us to be relatively confident that the change occurred during the Okilo adminitration (and perhaps was the direct decision of the Okilo administration).

RedboneSmith:
Is there any document preceding 1987 that has the name written as Oyigbo? I'd really like to know.

So to answer your final question, yes. There is documentation showing the name written as "Oyigbo" before 1987. I don't know when "Oyigbo" was documented for the first time, but since we know the role of the Okilo administration in catalyzing this change, we can infer that no documentation of "Oyigbo" existed before 1979 (I have yet to find an documented instance of Oyigbo beforehand).

But even up to 1989, locals were very well accustomed with referring to the community as "Obigbo", as that is what the migrant settlers called it (and what everyone consequently called it) since the late 1950s.

Strange thread... ... ... Anyhow, let's examine the premise and its conclusion.

Normally, I would first want to ensure that we are aware of the disctinction between languages and people. This is an important distinction to make, because the movement (spread, adoption and innovation) of language is not exactly one-for-one with the movement of people. This is why ethnolinguistics and lexicology are fields distinct from general anthropology. But, because I'm open to general discussion, I can put this distinction aside for a bit. It is quite technical, so perhaps now is not the time to get into it. Either that, or I may not even need to get into it to begin with, because this thread offers very little by way of its supporting evidence. So I'll just address the premise and conclusion of this topic.

The Premise: Out of the 47 languages identified on the map, 42 are either Igbo, formed from Igbo or descended from Igbo in some way.

The Derived Conclusion: Because 42 of the 47 languages are related to Igbo in some way, then it means Igbo was occupying almost all of the coast (i.e. "other groups met them at the coast and were influenced by their enduring tongue" ).

I must say, this is such a wild premise. Looking at the list and using information that is peer reviewed and accepted by the academia, I can only identify the following as languages that are part of the Igbo ethnolinguistic grouping:

#334 - Igbo (4)
#391 - Ika
#392 - Ukwuani-Aboh-Ndoni
#403 - Ogba
#404 - Ekpeye
#410 - Ikwerre

That makes a total of six. Where are the remaining 36 and what is the reason for including them? Yes, I read "descended from Igbo", but how is the OP defining or identifying languages "descended from Igbo". Is the OP perhaps talking about the formation of communities and trying to make that analagous to the branching of languages? These are questions that need clarification, because otherwise, we face a faulty premise.

The fault is simply this: Only six of the 47 labels have been verified as part of the Igbo language family tree. No other languages in the Niger Delta are members of this family tree. So the claim of widespread branching is now undermined, because we cannot account for the remaining 36. This faulty premise consequently invalidates the derived conclusion that the Igbo language was occupying a greater part of the coast at one point. In other words, it amounts to nothing more than an unfounded claim.

Hm. That didn't take long. We can conclude now that this thread is BS... BUT, I am a nice person that likes to give people the benefit of the doubt, so I will extend an olive branch.

I want to understand the reasoning for why the OP ballooned the numbers for the Igbo language family from six to 42. Perhaps we can start there in understanding how they arrived at the conclusion.

Eastlink:
Ijaw man claiming Igbo. So you finally dropped your Imemba moniker? An old fox can never change it's ways. After getting smashed on Facebook (Igbo history) where you displayed your idiocy with the Imemba moniker you ran back here.
Bonny/Opobo is Igbo. History recorded it and language proves it.

Igbo nairalanders, the moniker Chinenye is not Igbo neither is he Ngwa. Dude is Ijaw and has been on several forum propagating his Igbo balkanization agenda since early 2000’s.

To say all this? You are getting desperate it seems.

BKayy:
This is the reason why there is a field called Archeology, you don't open mouth and talk rubbish because one old man that survived stroke in your area told you so like ChinenyeN normally do here.

*grins* Lol. Is that what I do?

KosiGee:
ChinenyeN…kindly translate the above in English language. I’m interested in the way you write.

Sure. It translates as “Do you mean this thing that I am writing in this thread now?”

Basically a way of saying that I couldn’t care less about the supposed “warning”.

BKayy:
"Oral history"
Lol. Ebe ka nke a si?

Why don't you help him out if you think you know anything

I am patiently waiting for you.

BKayy, are you new to Nairaland or did you have a previous handle? Because if you are new to Nairaland, it might explain why you have the misguided notion to make this sort of statement to me. If you are not new to Nairaland, then this statement makes you look foolish. Whichever the case may be, if you’re patient enough to wait, then you’re patient enough to read through my post history here on NL. It will do the talking for me. There’s no need for me to even acknowledge any demand or request from you to furnish information. It’s already all at your fingertips.

SlayerForever:
Okay. We the clowns who you enjoy watching will respond accordingly when need be.

Ga kanula! Alright. I will enjoy the show.

SlayerForever:
You can observe silently, yes. Your comments are becoming too shameless. And I don't mean it as an insult.

Insult or not, just carry on. I’ll talk when I want to and to whom ever I so choose.

SlayerForever:
Excuse me. Gerrout from here please.

Hehe. No. I came to indulge myself by viewing this symphony of madness. So please, carry on as though I’m not here.

MelesZenawi:
Stop writing this gibberish here.

You have been warned consistently.

I kanu whne ke na maa gba l’ili na gbuo?

Alabo7978, I’m surprised you’re still going at it with them for this long. This back and forth is ahistorical. And at the end of the day, it is a contest of stamina not actual traditions and history. Igbo propagandists don’t care about actual oral history and traditions and they certainly don’t care about what you may have to say. They will outlast you in this argument out of sheer hubris and call it a win for themselves.

*enters, sits and watches*

*chuckles* Igbo propagandists really love arguing about things they don’t know when it comes to Bonny, Ndoki, Ijaw, etc. You people are pathologically ahistorical.

Sigh. I guess it can’t be helped, in a way. No one has the energy to continue incessant battles day and night. Ehi odo, a kanu ke mbu ke.

That Wikipedia page needs some editing. It’s got way too much misinformation and doesn’t provide the appropriate chronology of Ngwa history and origin. It will also need references. If anything, it should at least be reverted back to the content it had originally. That original content still had misinformation, but at least it was not as intensely misinforming as what it is now.

Favour623:
speak english i might be Igbo but i don't Understand Igbo,bcoz i was not raise at Alaigbo,and am trying my best to learn it as soon as i can

Unfortunately there is a specific reason why I chose to write explicitly in Ngwa (and in the specific Ngwa that I chose). I would rather not translate to Izugbe, not to even talk of translating in English. Harawa. That said, I still want to thank you for taking the time to respond in any case. Nmanma.

Favour623:
Don't speak for us,Ngwa is Igbo.if u don't want to accept the fact then forget about It.am from Ngwa and am a proud Igbo boy

Favour623, kanu la nnine. I ji ññaa kwnata dikwa obi la whne Igbo na? M ka m ra la o nogbala odo ahu we dila anyula anyi a liile sni. O nogbala odo ahu we dila anyulayi ogwe anyi mamirni l’ahu. I gba erne la we ngadinu ijito gh kpo whne? Enyi, whnuo nma. Whne ke na we ndidisi ime ngwuru afiri chakom.

BKayy:
In conclusion, what do you want us "the real Igbo" because you have conditioned yourself personally as an inferior to do for you?

This question doesn’t even seem genuine. Why did you even waste your time typing the things in bold? Sigh. Just reread this thread if you actually want an answer to this disingenuous question of yours. I no longer have an interest in personally engaging in disingenuous discourse with Igbo propagandists.

Ekealterego:
There is no other person other than your alternative moniker on this platform. You have been on this battle for at least 10 years.
Can you name any other person other than your Sani Haruna (Osageyefo8) supporting you on your pipedreams?

Here we go again. Can you really not tall people apart?

BKayy:
4. If you are waiting for some kind of apology from me on behalf of Anambra for something I am sure is mere blackmail then I am sorry to disappoint you. I can't beg a mango tree to accept the fact the it is a mango tree, and I don't believe in coercing people to do something that is against their will. So in your next post, don't revisit those allegations but ask for suggestions on how you people can go on your independent status.

Typical. Igbo people always want someone else to take responsibility for malicious behavior done by other from their clan or ethnicity, but will never want to take responsibility themselves for the actions of their own kinsmen.

BKayy:
I suggest you first register with Abia state Government especially now that the Governor is also from Ngwa. I can help with the write up if you people want. That will also confirm that your ascertions is the mind of the majority in Ngwa.

I doubt Ngwa people want your help on this matter. Between the petitions of 1910 - 1940 and the current ongoing Aba State movement, it seems evident that those Ngwa people who truly want it are busy taking the initiative and have been doing so for a while. Thanks for your offer, but no thanks.

BKayy:
5. Like I said above, if all the lies peddled by you people is to blackmail other Igbo to beg or place you people above them as Lords then I am sorry to disappoint you once again, Mr ChinenyeN, ImembaN, Letu, Eduj and others, all I have to say is this: "IGBO esika, Igbo abụrọ anụ ana ata ekpuchi ọnụ"
I will be dammed if I grovel to anybody, any clan or any way you put it. Until you people prove to me that your decision is that of atleast 40% of Ndị Ngwá, I reserve the appropriate reciprocation to the great Igbo name you lots are messing with.

This thread is full of Ngwa people independently voicing discontent and suspicion of Igbo to vary degrees of intensity, and you want to dismiss four Ngwa people and talk about “lies peddled by you” as if they are the only Ngwa people thinking or feeling such things. This your statement above is disingenuous. At this point, I know that if I ever want to have a real discussion with an Igbo person about moving Igbo forward, it won’t be with you. You seem just as disingenuous as your fellow Igbo propagandists.