dalaman:


Learn to read. This is the opinion of a professor based on a 2009 poll conducted by Israel Democracy Institute that contradicts the latest Gallop poll.Israel Democracy Institute poll in 2009 said that 80 percent of Israeli-Jews believe in God. The Gallop poll was conducted in 2016.




This is a person that is just giving his OPINION of the poll. He was not part of the people that conducted the poll, he was just giving his own opinion on how he assumed people answered the questions which may or may not be true.

These are Rabbis and professors who actually live in Israel and understand their own people . It is rational to accept what the experts say while you are just making noise . Non-religiousity in Israel is actually different from what being non-religious means . There are official religious categories which if you are not part of in Israel , you'd be seen as non-religious


Its similar with Shintoism in Japan , the adherents say that they are not religious simply because they don't see Shintoism as an organized religion . Some Confucians in China would say that are not religious because they see Confucianism as a lifestyle not a religion .

Just the other day a twitter follower said that she isn't religious and when I asked if she was a deist , she said "no" that she isn't deep into religion but maintained that she is a Christian . That means the non-religious to her is someone who holds religious beliefs with less ardor than usual .

Dalaman , there is no generally accepted meaning of non-religious in fact .

You have no serious argument again .

Pele

urahara:



Loool

Even my uncle that has been to Israel affirmed that those people no get time for bibeli

Loool

My aunty that has been to Israel affirmed that those people get plenty time for bible

Daviddson:
It's alright. But never forget that the purest motivation should be the glory of God and winning over the souls of these precious ones whose mind and intellect satan is playing cards with.

I fully understand that bro . Thanks a lot

That aside, do you about Ray Comfort, Ravi Zacharias, and Andy Bannister?

I know Ray Comfort and Ravi Zacharias but not Andy Bannister .

tintingz:
When I was a Muslim, I use to argue as a religious heresy like Kingebukasblog(rejecting many Quranic and Hadith practices), now I'm skeptic, it's just a matter of time for him to openly accept and declare his skepticism.

Everyone is expressing some kind of skepticism . The people who believe in the allegorical interpretation are skeptical of the literal interpretation . Many theological positions in Christianity arose through skepticism of the already existing positions .

Nothing much here bro .

dalaman:


Will you keep quiet. I just showed you research from some of the most reputable polling firms that show that Israel is one of the least religious countries and you are still spewing thrash.

Majority of people in Israel are NON religious. They do not believe in any Religion and do not practice any religion. Chew on that and stop sounding like a person that can no read.

Those that believe in the bible are a minority in Israel today.

Even you link shows you don't know what you are saying.

Please read this article and understand the report and stop arguing abeg

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Gallup-Israel-one-of-least-religious-countries-398823

They made a survey and the data were drawn from people who responded to it . Are you saying that 8.5 million of Israeli-Jews responded to it ?
Please tell me you are indeed joking .


Excerpts from the article .



Prof. Yedidia Stern, the vice president of research at IDI.

Aside from those who are self-identified as either religious or secular,

“the rest are traditional but not necessarily religious by self declaration,” he explained.

“Eighty percent believe in God.

Are they secular or religious? If we are speaking about [halachic observance], then many are not.

But if you ask if they believe God [is] relevant to Israeli life and they believe in it, then Israelis are a very religious kind of country,” he said.


According to Uri Regev, a Reform rabbi and head of the religious pluralism NGO Hiddush, Israel’s “religious politics and established, coercive, rabbinate are the main forces responsible for undermining Israelis’ Jewish identity.”

Those who replied that they are not religious were “mostly expressing their dissociation from those who claim to represent the only authentic and binding Judaism, and from their interpretation of Judaism,” he said.


Asked about the WIN/Gallup International poll, Dan Ben-David, president of the Shoresh Institution and an economist at Tel Aviv University, agreed, stating that it appeared to present “a binary distinction [i.e., yes or not religious] rather than one of degree – so maybe most people abroad believe in God, and thus consider themselves religious.”

“Here, on the other hand, the religious ‘categories’ are already taken by the entire spectrum from traditional to ultra-Orthodox, so even if you believe in God but do not count yourself in one of the officially religious categories, then your tendency in Israel may be to say that you are not religious.”

Here are explanations of what it means to be non-religious in Israel by Rabbis and professors . You didnt read the article and you are jumping up and down with excitement ;

TomHagen:
Ogbeni you are not a Christian.

You know I always said you were going to leave Christianity.
It only remains to make it official like Phillipe Coutinho.

You are too sophisticated for religion.

I don't know anything to be too sophisticated for religion . I'm nowhere near my mentors who were/are fervent Christians . Did you see the people I mentioned in the post preceding this ? Those are excellent intellectuals whose contributions have shaped our understanding of Christian theology!

Daviddson:
I reject it for him in Jesus' name. Amen.

But on a serious note, Kingebukasblog, too much sophistication and learning (in order to match atheists) is trying to knock you off somehow.
Check Luke 22:32

To match the atheists ? You only try to match someone who is better than you are .

I'm trying to match our great Christian theologians and Philosophers like Isaac Newton , Thomas Aquinas , St Augustine , George Berkeley , Immanuel Kant , John Calvin , Luis de Molina , Martin Luther and the others .

It won't knock me off . It would just make me have ideas that would be considered unconventional or unorthodox in this modern era .

Daviddson:

Let me assume I understand your point. Thank you.

Lol .. bro , I can explain further if you want me to .

Kai! That guy? I'd rather run for my life faith than be brainwashed by him.

I mentioned the President himself as an example of a Christian who doesn't take everything in the bible literally . Its not that we are being affected by atheists or deists or whoever .

Daviddson:
@KingEbukasBlog
Sorry to say, but you're beginning to sound like an atheist, deist, etc. Those prolonged arguments with atheists on Nairaland seem to be taking some subtle toll and influence on you bro.

Sorry David , I mistook you for @Davidgrey . I don't know why . That's why my response was not elaborate .

The arguments have never taken a toll and influence on me . I've had the idea of different interpretations of the bible since I was 13 with Duke's Annotated Bible and I was already a progressive creationist at that age . So no , its just that I have become more open to other interpretations of the bible and I have concluded that I would withhold judgement and never get intransigent with any particular view or interpretation . It has nothing to do with the discussions or arguments here . These atheists are not saying anything now Come on !

Example : Here is my view as a progressive creationist 3 years ago

https://www.nairaland.com/2305535/dealing-misconceptions-10-things-bible

dalaman:


You don't know what you are saying. According to Pew research non religious Jews constitute the largest percentage of people in Israel.

http://www.pewforum.org/2016/03/08/israels-religiously-divided-society/pf_2016-03-08_israel-01-01/

As you can see the the Hiloni constitute the largest percentage.


From.Wikipedia:

Hiloni (Hebrew: חִלּוֹנִי‬), plural hilonim (Hebrew: חִלּוֹנִים‬), derived from the Hebrew word hulin, meaning "secular" or "mundane," is the term used in Israel for non-religious Jews, some of whom identify with Jewish secularism and secular Jewish culture.[1]

Most Jews living in Israel are non religious.

From one of the leading Israeli newspapers.


Israel Among the Least Religious Countries in the World


Only 30% of Israelis say they are religious, survey finds; Thailand is most religious country in the world and China is the least.


https://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.651616?v=150EF83CD4A46B2F18DD7E0CB6522268


From the Jerusalem post another leading news paper in Israel. It also says Israel is one of the least religious countriesin the world


http://m.jpost.com/Israel-News/Gallup-Israel-one-of-least-religious-countries-398823

Where does it say they don't believe in the bible ?

Surveys only cover a little percentage of the population and then extrapolations are made .

People who identify as secular are mostly adherents of modern orthodox Judaism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Orthodox_Judaism

Stop spreading lies

dalaman:


Most mordern day Jews don't believe in the bible anymore. But hell as a place of eternal fire is not a Jewish tradition. It has never been. There is no hell in the OT, it is a new testament tradition.

What kind of dirty lie is this ? The Jews that I've conversed with all believe in the bible. Some Jews are even Christians. One of the best and most educated theists on the internet @AStratelates on twitter is a bible-believing Jew.

The Modern Jews are the ones who obsessed with bible prophecies and their fulfilments. Only 8 percent of Israeli-Jews are anti religious . Stop telling lies .

Daviddson:
But you mustn't subscribe to those view if you find them contrary to the Scriptures; should you?

If there's no hell then why is this your post of any importance? : According to no-literal-hell belief, there's nothing to fear about after-death then? No judgement for evil doing. No reason for believing in God then. Is this not what unknown to you you're almost trying to say?

I never said I was right . I said I don't agree with the literal fire - it could be indeed literal fire . Judgement comes in different forms , who says it must be in after life . People who believe in reincarnation say that you pay for what you do in the next life (karmic baggage) .

MrPresident1 has a good knowledge of it . He'll explain it better

dalaman:


Let me just agree with you about objective morality. Pls can you show how God made and establish objective morality and how every body that sees or agrees to it will know that it is God given?

I'll answer this later sir . Can't type it

Can morality be objective without God? Aagain how is God the source and being that establishes objective morality?

You can watch Dr Craig vs Sam Harris' debate video on YouTube . Sam Harris was expected to provide a basis for objective morality without God and he ended up embrassing himself .

To save you time because Sam Harris was bloviating as usual , here is why it's senseless to say you can have objective morality without God . And apparently, I was wrong about universal moral truths , universality isn't objectivity

https://youtube.com/watch?v=cDQzijl6El4


This is the second time I'm showing how unreasonable Sam Harris has been with the things he says and there are many of them yet Nigerian atheists hold him in high esteem .

Please watch the video , it answers so many questions.

Daviddson:
@KingEbukasBlog
Sorry to say, but you're beginning to sound like an atheist, deist, etc. Those prolonged arguments with atheists on Nairaland seem to be taking some subtle toll and influence on you bro.

How can you say you don't take Bible literally? So Jesus Christ who spoke about hell describing it vividly made a mistake?
And you also said the Creation account in the Bible is not as it is. These kind of views are mostly expressed by deists and their ilks.
This is what I warned you guys about in one of my threads last year but you said you're arguing for fun. When did Christian apologetics turn to fun?

Many church fathers like St Augustine didn't take the creation story literally and that was about 1700 years ago .

Others took Noah and the ark story , the book of Job etc allegorically.

I'm not saying anything new . These views have been expressed thousands of years ago .

hakeem4:
sorry, if incest is a sin in Israel but it isn’t a sin in India are you telling thar people who commit incest will go to hell fire ?

You are just trying to ask what happens if societal moral standards are not congruent with God's moral standards. The answer is that anyone who conforms to societal standards which are not congruent with God's will face the condign punishment .

johnydon22:
I understand the perspective KingEbukasblog is addressing the problem from.

And I also understand that of Dalaman.

KingEbukas argument on this is valid, if morality is subjective on what basis do you accuse God of evil?

Because based on a particular subjective moral outlook God may be evil but on a different outlook that evil is good.

I think a definition is needed here.

What is morality?

If you say morality is objective, that is just a vague statement. What makes something moral?

Is it objectively moral because it is just like that without reason or is it objectively moral because there are elements/tenets or effects that makes it so?

We must define morality.

Once a definition is coined, subjectivity and objectivity comes second place

Well then

+ dalaman

Morality is concerned with our senses or beliefs about what is right or wrong behaviour.

Then for objective morality : What is morally wrong or right does not depend on our personal views of right or wrong behaviour . More like universal moral truths .

Subjective morality : What is morally wrong or right depends on our personal views and we can agree or not agree personally on what is right or wrong .

johnydon22:


Apostasy and evolution?

About evolution, same thing with my view of Hell . It's not definitive, I accept that it is rational that God allowed for the gradual formation of life for a long period of time . The creation story has myriads of interpretations and there is no reason to stick with a literal interpretation.

Apostasy in Christianity is a big deal . Because you are denying that Jesus whom you once confessed is your lord and saviour is now being renounced . And if you die as an apostate , oyo for you .

I don't have a fixed or definitive view of Hell . But I lean towards it being a state or condition of human experience whereby He is not in line with the will of God or being completely obliterated and not given the opportunity to resurrect after death . Burning fire ? I don't think I agree with that. Pagan influence in the Catholic Church may have affected our view of Hell. Because Judaism didn't even address such things at all . The view of burning fire and eternal torment is consistent with paganism .

Dohgon:


You will never convince a god lover that evil is the fault of his god. He will either tell you that misfortune is the fault of the unfortunate for choosing to live outside the grace and protection of his god or he will tell you that evil is a test of faith. If he is smart enough he might also convince you that your non-belief is also a test from his god for him. You are just a pawn life Lucifer. Either way, you will end up in a catch 22 paradox. But don’t we all love the exercise?

Didn't I destroy your weak arguments the last time we argued? Oh yeah it's you who made a ludicrous argument : Intelligence can exist without a mind . Laughable!

The Dystheist believes God is evil and of a morally depraved nature . You are not making any serious argument just like your friend .

dalaman:


Morality doesn't have to be objectively good for it to be appreciated. The Muslim's endearment to sharia is an example I've always used to show prove that to you. To the avatar muslim the sharia is the perfect and objective moral system as prescibed by the creator of the universe and humanity as a whole. His objective moral principles are stated in the sharia. Do you agree with the sharia as an objective source of morality? No you don't but you and a muslim can live in the same society and agreed on many things together as morally good or evil despite the fact that you DO NOT SHARE THE SAME VIEWS AND IDEAS ON OBJECTIVE MORALITY.

We do not have to agree that morality is objective to know that gratuitous evil exist in our world. Even if morality is objective then it is humans that made it so because humans are the creators of every moral systems and not God. Name one moral principle that was made by any God on its own without human input, when it was made by such a God and how it was made by such a God on its own without any human input. Go ahead am waiting.

I can see that you want to feign ignorance.

With subjective morality an atheist rapist could argue that he has done good just like the serial rapist Ted Bundy tried justifying why he rapes nd murders women To him, God has permitted good .

You have no serious argument Mr.Dalaman

AnonyNymous:
KingEbukasBlog its too bad you opened the competition to atheists only. Well, I also noticed something in the opening post. . .why would YOU be the judge? You have never for once conceded that you were wrong here on Nairaland and I understand that because those are your beliefs and you'll go any length to support them. Why not bring in a neutral observer? Someone who's indifferent to both sides but yet is active on the religion section?

I have conceded that I was wrong a few times here - and the discovery was done my own self .

I don't think a neutral would have been a better judge tbh bro .

dalaman:


We've argued and argued over this things in the past. I just want you to tell me the morally sufficient reasons why your God allows all the gratuitous evil we see around us. This is not a debate on (objective) morality.

You don't get it . If there is no objective good or evil, how can you say for sure that we perceive the same evil and the same good ? There is no agreement between us that there is "evil" around us . What if I see it as good ?

dalaman:
According to KingEbukasblog, God has morally sufficient reasons for allowing evil to happen.

Can the christians here tell us the morally sufficient reasons why their God allows all the gratuitous evil we see around us?

Whats the obsession with evil sir ? If God does not exist , everything is permissible. There'd be no good or evil . How could there be evil if there is no such thing as objective morality? What you see as evil could be good to the next person . So is evil actually being permitted or what you perceive as evil - which could be perceived as good by another .

Only if you agree that there is such thing as objective good and evil, then your question would make sense !

If not , what you perceive as evil , is simply good to another .

Comprende sir ?

adepeter2027:

@bold just proved my point.

You just pick any definition of god you like to proof a point.

I don't know if you really understand the colored TEXTS


Truth eh, you're good but this ya twisting and untwisting of terms and arguments is tiring.


OP

ok

3nim

Hello dear , I'm so sorry . I saw those questions you asked and I did respond to them but my post never went through. It was a long and the thought of retyping it irked me . So , can we have a discussion next week . I'll respond to all your questions I promise.

4kings:
KingEbukasBlog your definition of atheism has been refuted.
So what's the point of number 2, are you trying to shoot yourself in the foot.

Who did and where was it refuted?

I don't know if this challenge is still on, it would have been fun to debate number 1 with you, but it might just end up in a stalemate.

Wow . I'm really busy now . Maybe next week . But seriously, what argument could you possibly bring that hasn't been refuted.

If there was any , atheists would have been singing it like it were an anthem.

I knew from the very start that NO ONE could produce anything because there is actually NO tenable argument or reason to say there is God (separate conscious entity that transcends the universe ) .

And i support budaatum request of a judge though.

No

4kings:

This "something cannot come from nothing argument" is old, weak and not so clear now when observing the quantum world.
I'm not saying i believe the universe comes from nothing but the current weirdness and inadequate understanding of quantum fields opens a possibility.

Quantum mechanics does not prove the universe came from nothing neither does it prove the universe is eternal . I'm not talking of redefined "nothing" in science ignorant atheists use to confuse people . I'm talking about utter nothingness - physically , meta-physically and even to the quantum level .

Even Sean Carroll admitted that utter nothingness existed prior to the "quantum world' .

A universe as a whole from utter nothingness is pure stupidity - the idea is being entertained because of atheists who are "scientists" are uncomfortable with the fact that a universe which has a beginning must have a transcendent cause .

And why can't a universe be eternal due to your "scientific" reasons?(I sincerely want to know this and please if it's the misunderstanding of Hawking's lecture you wanna bring as argument then don't bother.)

Not my fault you can't understand it .

Also i might be interested in learning the philosophical points too.

There cant be an infinite number of past events and infinite number of causes . The beginning of the universe has to be the first temporal event that has ever occurred.

For a universe with a beginning, we have myriads of reasons in science with actual evidence. The Borde-Vilenkin-Guth theorem is popularly used as evidence to support a finite universe .

adepeter2027:
Àtimes, you are ridiculously funny. You just choose whatever point of theism that suites ya arguments to debate forgetting other aspects.

I believe you're a theist and pantheism is a type or form of theism (I'm free/open to correction tho). More also, god is relative.

According to pantheism, god is the Universe. Now if god is the universe, do you mean to say god is not eternal as well or am I quoting out of context?

CC hopefulLandlord, dalaman and co

But God can be eternal due to religious and "kingebukological" reasons àbí?

The God I'm talking about is the separate conscious entity that transcends the universe.

Pantheism doesn't posit that the universe is eternal . There are pantheists who believe the universe has a beginning. Deifying an entity does not make the entity eternal .

"pan" in pantheism means everything. A pantheist can believe that everything including the creator of the universe is God .

3nim:


I don't think anyone can provide irrefutable evidence for that....but how exactly do you explain the existence of a creator or his role in the creation of the universe?

Something cannot come from nothing or Nothing produces Nothing (Ex nihilo nihil fit )

Something has to be eternal

The universe cannot be eternal due to philosophical and scientific reasons

And since all evidence points to a finite universe (one that has a beginning )

Then the universe was caused to exist , the agent behind its existence is itself uncaused .

The agent= God

The great Thomas Aquinas and Leibniz presented it in a better way though ..lol

Then Kalam's Cosmological Argument for God's existence presents this in a syllogistic form

1. Whatever begins to exist must have a cause
2. The universe began to exist
3. Therefore , the universe has a cause

The cause of the universe is beginless , uncaused , non-physical , immutable etc .

The fact that science can not and might never be able to provide a concrete answer doesn't make the existence of a creator any more credible than the big bang theory

The Big Bang was a procedure used to bring the universe into being sort of . The Big Bang is not an agent .

TheHistorian:
Amen Sir,and you too.
Can I send you a PM?
I need your contact - whatsapp,email,mobile e.t.c.

Thank you .
Sure you can send me a PM . I'll send it there

rhektor:
Happy new year

KingEbukasBlog
Felixomor
Petera1
Olu317
4everGod
This year will be a better year

Happy New Year bro . A happy and prosperous new year to you and all those mentioned . God bless you all