"Programming" is a subsection of the larger Software Engineering discipline. In order to achieve true success in the IT industry, we have to start looking at the bigger picture. Learning the latest programming language du jour might get you a nice job, but it won't guarantee you longevity in the industry.

Perhaps it's time for Nairaland to have a "Software Engineering" section, to steer Nigerian computer technicians (those at home and abroad) in the right direction.

Peace.

1) How would you define, "software engineering"?

2) How does it differ from programming?

3) Why should it merit a separate section from programming (in other words, you need to explain better than you have above)?

No. Programming and Software Engineering are the same thing. They are used interchangably, at least on this end. As posted above, how would you differentiate the two?

"Software engineering is the application of a systematic, disciplined, quantifiable approach to the development, operation, and maintenance of software. It encompasses techniques and procedures, often regulated by a software development process, with the purpose of improving the reliability and maintainability of software systems."

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_engineering

"Programming is when Computer programmers make programs. They usually use programming languages to make their programs. Sometimes they use special software which helps them to make programs, and sometimes they use simpler software like Notepad which only gives them a place to type. After they write programs, they use compilers to turn what they've typed, called the source code, into things that they can run, called executables."

source:http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming

I see you guys' point about them being the same thing, but there is a subtle difference. Software Engineering is about Software which is, at its most basic a "Computer Program". However, the "Engineering Discipline" of Software goes beyond programming. Think about it.

Peace.

tju,

and how does this differ from programming (dictionary definition aside)?

In my opinion, the difference b/w the 2 is like the difference b/w a secretary and an administrative assistant. In other words, it's the same difference. One is just a glorified name of the other.

Well, you saying that is like saying "Integrated Circuit Building" is the same thing as "Electronic Engineering".

I cannot say what I am saying until, like me, you provide the differences in definitions. I would like to take a crack at it if I may though:

Circuit building is a subset of electronic engineering. Programming was the term used when the profession first came out. Software engineering basically applies (or attempts to anyways) best practices to the art and science of programming.

So in essence, if I can program, I can be a software engineer. I don't have to go to school to become one. However, just because I can build a circuit board doesn't necessarily mean I am good in other areas of electronic engineering. Even if there were a difference, it doesn't warrant, in my opinion a separate board. If you have any best practices to share, just post them here.

I think it's very important for us Nigerians to start looking at the bigger picture. I have met excellent Nigerian "programmers" who don't know vital things like process improvement, security, software architecture or any formal techniques (e.g. software engineering maths, specification & design, concurrency etc) that are the foundation of programming itself. Many "developers" can cut any type of Java code, but they cease to be software engineers if they are not allowed to use this very popular (and brilliant, if I may add) language.

I don't see how that compares to circuit building vs electronic engineering. Be that as it may:

Don't get into the "I am a banker (when in reality, a 'banker' is basically someone who counts someone else's money and wears a shirt and tie and not someone who owns a bank)" mentality. I graduated as a software engineer but if you ask me what I do, I say I am a web developer. Consequently, when I am in Nigeria and friends introduce me as a software engineer ("engineer" for short), I personally frown upon it. I am not into glorified names. I am basically a programmer at the end of the day.

There are software engineers who don't know certain concepts. That doesnt and shdnt take away from what they are. Likewise, there are programmers (as in have received no formal training) who know more than most software engineers.

Software engineering isn't about coding but how to make coding more efficient. So for example, a programmer might know how to code a function using 1000 lines of code. A software engineer on the other hand would know about Big O notation and try to come up with something much shorter.

my2cents, I think an Integrated Circuit Bulder can work as an Electronic Engineer. He is simply the guy on the team that builds the designs of the more senior Electronic Engineers (who see the bigger picture), you can see him as a basic technician on the team.

Likewise, a career developer who has only mastered a programming language (but is not aware of the underlying principles which are independent of the current programming language) is very much a Software Engineer, but he is only a developer as far as the team is concerned. If his skills are no longer needed (e.g. Java or VB), he ceases to be useful.

Programmer is a role, Web Developer is a role.

Software Engineering is the encompassing discipline. It doesn't make any sense to say that "Programming" is not part of "Software Engineering". In fact, it is the core skill of a Software Engineer. Program = Software.

We all have opinions, I stick with the facts.

If his skills are no longer needed (e.g. Java or VB), he ceases to be useful.

Same applies to a software engineer. You can't just make a broad statement about programmers knowing only one language. Maybe based on your experience and who you come in contact with. What is programming anyways? It's logic. If you can reason logically, you can program in any language.

Again, software engineering is about concepts in programming. Even your definition above basically says so. That by the way doesn't imply they can code in any language. When I was in school, I interacted with a professor who last line of code was in cobol in the 70s. At the time, he knew nothing about java and yet was a professor of software engineering who was to teach a class in java. He relied on teaching assistants to get the job done. Having said that, he knew enough about the principles behind programming in general such that he wasn't a total mumu. Does that take away from him being a software engineer? I don't think so.

Programmer is a role, Web Developer is a role.

Software Engineering is the encompassing discipline.

So what would you call a software engineer (Mind you, I said software engineer, not software engineering)? A role? There are job positions called "software engineer".

I have also observed that there is lot of "name glorifications" amongst Nigerians in Nigeria. People like to be called/addressed as Engr., Dr, professor, etc.  

The bottom line, a software engineer, a developer, a programmer are just the same thing. People use them interchangeably.

Heck! There is even a forum here called "webmasters". I wonder what makes someone qualify as a webmaster.

Bossman,

Exactly! It's the "I am a banker" mentality carried over courtesy of the British colonizing us. There are too many programmers. what do we do? oh my god!! Let's find another name to stand apart. Next thing you know, some people will start having "software engineer" or "webmaster" as a prefix in their names.

It's just like some pple on here say that if you build a website, you are a web designer yet if you build a web app, you are a web developer. It's ridiculous and it's crap.

A Software Engineer is a role that can involve any aspect of Software Engineering, including Programming.

I have taken a Software Engineer role in the past and I worked on requirements gathering, design as well as programming. Really, it's a tricky role to take on because then your boss can ask you to do any work under the "Software Engineering" umbrella.

However, if you are hired as a Java Developer - well, you just have to write Java Code (Programming) and maybe more "development" work such as configuration and deployment.

If people want to glorify themselves, that's their problem. I like to believe this forum is about serious business. I know many so-called Software Architects who are in fact, just Business Analysts. You're right there is a lot of confusion in the industry but this is due to the industry still being relatively new and charlatans take advantage of it.

My point is this: Software Engineering is the big picture. Programming is a (vital) piece of the puzzle.

My point is this: Software Engineering is the big picture. Programming is a (vital) piece of the puzzle.

Why does this warrant a separate board? And by the way, tell the person hiring a software engineer vs a programmer that he needs to check up on his/her hiring skills - even a programmer works based on requirements. If not, the program won't work. A Business Analyst (BA)comes up with the business/functional requirements and the programmer works off of those. If you did requirements gathering, that's the job of a BA not a software engineer.

Again, let's zoom in on your wikified definition:

"Software engineering is the application of a systematic, disciplined, quantifiable approach to the development, operation, and maintenance of software. It encompasses techniques and procedures, often regulated by a software development process, with the purpose of improving the reliability and maintainability of software systems."

Where in the above does it mention requirements gathering? As a software engineer, your role is to apply best practices to the job at hand. Again, remember what I said a few posts above. I will use an example:

for(i=0; i<50;i++) {
array = new array("a", "b", "c";
array2 = new array("A", "B", "C";
if(array.equals(array2))
(code goes on)
}

**Generally speaking**, someone with no formal training might come up with something like that but a software engineer would know that there it is inefficient to keep on declaring array and array2 inside the for loop. Best practice dictates that you declare the arrays outside the loop as they are static. In the end, both approaches work but one is more efficient than the other.

I was only trying to help shed some light but it seems opinions, not facts rule these boards. Happy Programming!

Don't give up bro just because, "it seems opinions, not facts rule these boards". At the end of the day, it's not who wins on this topic that matters to me but who learns from who. For all we know, you could be right, but you haven't convinced me. I may not have convinced you either, but hey, such is life. We would be zombies if we all thought alike. I just don't accept what anyone says without solid proof. In this case, I don't see proof. Sorry.

I have been in the field since 1999. Based on both personal and professional experience, you haven't shed any light on the issue to help me see clearer. Again, sorry.

Bottomline IMHO, there is no need to create a separate board for the 2. If you have anything to share, just do what others have been doing since the inception of Nairaland - share. No need creating 7 layers of separation. As a software engineer, I am sure you would agree that in and of itself is not best practice

my2cents, I appreciate your opinion.

Your angle is that not everyone sees "programming" as a sub-section of "software engineering". This is a fact, therefore I agree.

Can we then have a "software engineering" forum under "Technology" then, for those more interested in Software Engineering than Programming?

I think this would solve our problem

For a forum like NL, probably not. NL is pretty big and the moderator has his hands full moderating by himself as it is.

For a forum that is more specific to the programming community, I can see that happening. Then again, I am not the moderator of NL

If there is a thread for software engineering then,the same is going to apply to all courses. . .
Anything related to software engineering can be discussed under programming, but if u feel there should be a thread for it,then u can create one but u're going to be adding more to the admin's workload.

I see no reason for it. It will just be total duplication of postings. I will say it again, Software Engineering and programming are exactly the same thing. What topics are going to be discussed there that cannot be discussed in the programming forum? The principles that both are based on are the same. I have been in this filed for quite some time both as a consultant and employee. They are NOT differentiated on this end at all. I guess it's different in Nigeria.

tju38:


Your angle is that not everyone sees "programming" as a sub-section of "software engineering". This is a fact, therefore I agree.

Can we then have a "software engineering" forum under "Technology" then, for those more interested in Software Engineering than Programming?

@my2cents

Sorry to break this to you but your code is quite efficient ,

I see what @tju38 is saying though i don't necessarily agree it should go on a separate board ,

Software development goes beyond pure coding ,

e.g Most non-trivial apps use a database , good programmer might not necessarily be good db designer, the concepts of good db design fall under the umbrella of
SW development (or engineering , to rigid!)

concepts such as Inversion of control, RUP, Security might not even involve coding per se,

Its like the difference between a programmer and developer , (check out Sun's site)

You can happily continue to write code for years oblivious of things like distributed programming, design patterns, RUP, CORBA,STIP apps etc.,CDC,CLDC
all programmers don't know these things because they go beyond just writing code/programming


I feel you @tju38, but i think you should just post design issues in the programming section all the same, cause programming is the meat of design(bones)
and its rarely interesting to have design alone without the context code.

Bossman says:
"I will say it again, Software Engineering and programming are exactly the same thing."

LOL This is typically what would be uttered by a "programmer" lacking in academic refinement. I think you should stick to programming as I'm sure you don't know the first thing about software engineering. A good software engineer cannot get by on rhetoric alone.

Ghenghis, I totally agree with you and your suggestions are most practical.

i think programming is a unique field, and only a programmer can access a programmer that's why its easy to bamboozle management and write codes that work but are INEFFICIENT. with time and practice a programmer can write code that works, but with more knowledge he can critique his code. it is this added knowledge that differentiates
those who write CODE THAT WORKS from those who write EFFICIENT ,MAINTAINABLE CODE.
e.g what's BIG 0 NOTATION,what does a coder need it for, but if one knows of it,he'll know what data structure to use,
and the strength and weakness of different data structures , he'll knw what sorting algorithm to use ,how many programmers can differentiate between an efficient algorithms let say , bubble sort from a more efficient one, lets say,
quicksort or merge sort , most self taught guys  may settle for 'code that works' ,in the end , there's a scientific aspect to programming, and it's not as exciting to learn as 'hacking code' . its this scientific knowledge that causes i thnk the name distinction,but u dont need to go to uni to learn it, just be eager to know more, and u'll be equivalent to a SOFTWARE ENG.
E.G
 okay, who care about , depth space complexity,or  artificial intelligence, NP completeness boy,
in the every day world of the coder such thngs dont COUNT,
 a programmer for the business world may need know - java[java in 21 days ]+ some database+plus java certs and he's ready to boot.

Was just trying to get the point accross that they are used interchangably and not differentiated out there in the "real world".  I am fully aware that therritically, they are different. I happen to have a degree in Comp. Science and Mathematics. Heck! Java did not even exist when I was in college, we used ADA for the software engineering classes, data structures, etc. But, I really do not care what I am called be it a programmer, developer, or whatever.

That's fine if you think I am lacking in academic refinement or do not know anything about software engineering. After all we are all entitled to our opinions.

tju38:

LOL This is typically what would be uttered by a "programmer" lacking in academic refinement. I think you should stick to programming as I'm sure you don't know the first thing about software engineering. A good engineer cannot get by on rhetoric alone.

Sorry if I came across harsh; it's just that those who refuse to acknowledge the difference between the two are often those who slow down progress in delivering quality software in the "real world".

The real world is "Industry", the ideal world is "Academia". Academia informs Industry and not vice versa, I expect anyone with a degree in Computer Science to know this. Therefore, when discussing programming and software engineering (especially on a forum where hundreds of our Nigerian people hoping to learn might be reading), it is important that we take a formal approach to things and make concepts as clear as possible.

Academia informs Industry and not vice versa

Not always.

I expect anyone with a degree in Computer Science to know this.

You definitely have big expectations, especially among those who barely made the GPA required for graduation

No offense, but you come across as someone who shoots from the hip, then when made to realize the error in your ways, you immediately apologize. I take this from your latest, being that b/w you and Bossman. Just because someone doesn't say so doesn't mean you are to draw conclusions. As they say, never judge a book by its cover, although I must say, based on my experience, I could tell Bossman is pretty advanced based on his, "rhetoric"

^It's okay to stick up for your friend

No problems tju38.

I'd say the same about you my2cents, Thanks!.

Anyway,

For those without dogmatic in-bred beliefs about programming and who would like to find resources on the software engineering discipline, here's a very useful link:

http://www.sei.cmu.edu/

enjoy.