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To The Theists, Who Determines/control Destiny, Man Or God? - Religion - Nairaland

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To The Theists, Who Determines/control Destiny, Man Or God? by Nobody: 9:30pm On Jun 12, 2010
I heard Pastor Rod Parsley speaking on TBN, that destiny is determined by Man&not God.He spoke extensively on this with relevant quotes from the bible.I believe on one hand&dnt on the other.
God said to Jeremiah in chapter1vs5 of his that he knew him right from the womb.Jesus was qouted in john6vs38 that he came to do the will of God that sent him.Meaning christs destiny was determined/planned by God from A-Z. Also in deut 30 vs15&19, moses charged the israelites to choose their destinies.Also Joshua in 24vs15 did same. As christians should we be in charge or allow God to be the determiner?
Re: To The Theists, Who Determines/control Destiny, Man Or God? by noetic16(m): 9:44pm On Jun 12, 2010
One needs to know what context he was speaking (before saying he is right or wrong) because for a fact man has freewill but destiny is written and determined by God.

I would go into details of my submission in a bit . . ,
Re: To The Theists, Who Determines/control Destiny, Man Or God? by Nobody: 10:00pm On Jun 12, 2010
noetic16:

One needs to know what context he was speaking (before saying he is right or wrong) because for a fact man has freewill but destiny is written and determined by God.

I would go into details of my submission in a bit . . ,

He spoke on giving,salvation&getting to top positions in life,that man is the designer of what he becomes/becomes of him.
Looking at the bible from genesis to revelation,we would see that destines were determined by God&man.but then one out of the two must be distinguished from the other.Nigeria Pastors have divergent views.Some says man is the architect,others say its God/luck.
Re: To The Theists, Who Determines/control Destiny, Man Or God? by jesus3: 7:35am On Jun 13, 2010
@op, man has be given freewill by God,therefore man determines his destiny. More reasons later
Re: To The Theists, Who Determines/control Destiny, Man Or God? by Image123(m): 12:21pm On Jun 13, 2010
OP
Both i.e God and man.
Re: To The Theists, Who Determines/control Destiny, Man Or God? by KunleOshob(m): 12:36pm On Jun 13, 2010
My two cents; whilst God has given man free will, influence of others, personal capabilities, environmental factors and pure chance have always played a role in determining one's destiny.
Re: To The Theists, Who Determines/control Destiny, Man Or God? by InesQor(m): 1:00pm On Jun 13, 2010
The way I understand from the scriptures, destiny is like the vast woods, a forest linking two places and you as a man are moving from one end to the other. The way you move across the forest will determine the state in which you get to the other side. You may run, walk, or crawl but you will advance ONLY at 60 seconds per minute.  grin You may decide to make a road in the grassland as you move along so that you wont have to deal with wild creatures or wade in tall grass where snakes crawl, or you may decide to cross in a zigzag fashion. Either way, ultimately, you get to the other end. God knows the path entirely, he was there before the forest grew from an ordinary open plain, and he knows the habitats of the wild creatures in it, he knows the safe parts and he knows where you need to climb a tree and rest. Good enough, there is mobile reception in the forest and you have a phone, and he is always online.  cool grin cheesy You can give him a call anytime, and he is eager to help you across the forest of destiny.  cheesy Of course, you can still choose to go against his advice and do it your way. Ignorance will be no excuse for such a traveller when he takes a wrong turn, bursts into trouble and the wild animals feast on him! 


In essence I believe there are three components that control destiny:

1. God's design
2. Man's choices (available options) and decisions (what he does about the options)
3. Systems and laws


The 3rd component above: systems and laws, is one reason why "godless" people appear to prosper as well. They diligently follow systems and laws, and the laws will work for them because it is an unbiased jungle. But success is not guaranteed, and their destinies are still very much as stake.

Man may discover some of these systems and laws by himself and work with them, but he definitely cannot encompass all of the laws at once or know when they will conflict. He will need the guidance of God who designed the systems, the laws, and effectively presented the choices to man.

It will be wrong to say God controls our destiny without giving us any say, because if this is so then there will never be any judgment. But we can't also say that man controls his own destiny without God's influence because if that were so, one single man's wickedness could have snuffed out existence with no intervention from God. Last of all, the systems and laws do not control destinies on their own because even when a man refuses to make a decision and he stands still, God is still at work.

Every man is an architect of his own destiny, but just like with architects of buildings, there are constraints you need to work with. An architect has to consider the systems and laws of the place where he will build a house; is it in the tropics or a temperate region? Is it close to the sea? What about Winds? What kind of material can I use, even though I have fanciful ideas? The architect has freewill to develop his ideas, but he works within the constraints of systems. And there are faculties like the Town Planning folk, the local geographers guide, and so on (compare with God's part) that he needs to revert and submit to in order to better research, get advice and understand how to beat the constraints of his choices and make excellent decisions (which is his own part as an architect).
Re: To The Theists, Who Determines/control Destiny, Man Or God? by KunleOshob(m): 1:18pm On Jun 13, 2010
^^^
@inesqor
Wld you say Goodluck Jonathan is the architect of his own destiny? Same goes for OBJ who has ruled this country twice without planning for it.

Ps: I forgot to include "divine intervention" as a determinant of destiny in my previous post.
Re: To The Theists, Who Determines/control Destiny, Man Or God? by InesQor(m): 1:33pm On Jun 13, 2010
@KunleOshob: Yes I will say so. I maintain that all of us are architects of our own destinies. Goodluck Jonathan and OBJ made decisions out of available choices, even when the choices were hard. Even when they knew people would hate them, whatever. They stayed the course that the systems and laws had charted out for them, and they made hard decisions.

I do not believe in luck. What people call luck is either an appropriation of an understanding of how natural and spiritual laws and systems work, or it means the person simple aligned with God's pre-established will in that case, willingly or unwillingly. If such a person had not aligned with the will of God, he MAY have still obtained results too, by the way, but it wont be the same measure or kind of result. That's my 2 cents.
Re: To The Theists, Who Determines/control Destiny, Man Or God? by Nobody: 1:50pm On Jun 13, 2010
If man is to determine destiny, why is the case of jeremiah&paul different? Did paul warrant to be an apostle after his evil deeds. He was on his way to damascus&never planned what be-fell him. Isnt that God
Re: To The Theists, Who Determines/control Destiny, Man Or God? by InesQor(m): 1:56pm On Jun 13, 2010
@toba: I didn't say man determines destiny. I said he is the architect. Man participates in the description of his destiny, he does not do it single-handedly. For instance, if Saul had not been so passionate and running to Damascus to do evil, he would not have met his Damascus experience. The same passion with which he persecuted the church (his decisions based on choices available) is the SAME passion with which he preached and taught after his conversion.
Re: To The Theists, Who Determines/control Destiny, Man Or God? by 5solas(m): 2:13pm On Jun 13, 2010
God.
Re: To The Theists, Who Determines/control Destiny, Man Or God? by 5solas(m): 3:29pm On Jun 13, 2010
toba:

I heard Pastor Rod Parsley speaking on TBN, that destiny is determined by Man¬ God.He spoke extensively on this with relevant quotes from the bible.I believe on one hand&dnt on the other.
God said to Jeremiah in chapter1vs5 of his that he knew him right from the womb.Jesus was qouted in john6vs38 that he came to do the will of God that sent him.Meaning christs destiny was determined/planned by God from A-Z. Also in deut 30  vs15&19, moses charged the israelites to choose their destinies.Also Joshua in 24vs15 did same. As christians should we be in charge or allow God to be the determiner?


They charged the Israelites to choose the way of the Lord, not their destinies! This distinction is important.
Re: To The Theists, Who Determines/control Destiny, Man Or God? by 5solas(m): 3:37pm On Jun 13, 2010
I am often irked when ''I hear some preachers say,''You Can Change Your Destiny!'' It is totally misleading. One can change the circumstances they

find themselves by applying truths they learn, but it does not amount to them changing their destinies. Again we should know that we can achieve what we set out to achieve (if we have the ability), provided God does not will otherwise. If He willed otherwise, no amount of effort or wisdom will give us those achievements.
Re: To The Theists, Who Determines/control Destiny, Man Or God? by viaro: 3:49pm On Jun 13, 2010
Perhaps a good place to start is to look at what each one of us all mean by that nebulous word 'destiny'.

Inbetween all the points of reference, there seems to be a silverline cutting neatly through it all.
Re: To The Theists, Who Determines/control Destiny, Man Or God? by InesQor(m): 3:51pm On Jun 13, 2010
^^^ I agree about the silver line, viaro. By my WordWeb dictionary,

Destiny(n): Your overall circumstances or condition in life (including everything that happens to you).

which defines it as an all-encompassing set of experiences. This is yet another reason why, IMO, every entity or agent involved in your life has a part to play in your destiny, including yourself.
Re: To The Theists, Who Determines/control Destiny, Man Or God? by 5solas(m): 3:57pm On Jun 13, 2010
toba:

As christians should we be in charge or allow God to be the determiner?

W e do not even know what our destinies are, so even if we wanted to be in charge, we cannot.We however know those things God would have us do, doing those things would give us the blessings of God. We should do that and leave the results to God.

In truth, nothing happens without God's determination.
Re: To The Theists, Who Determines/control Destiny, Man Or God? by viaro: 4:14pm On Jun 13, 2010
5solas:

In truth, nothing happens without God's determination.

Well, it all depends. For example, we know that God has not 'determined' the perdition of anyone (2 Peter 3:9 and 1 Timothy 2:4).

One reason why I suggested that we each take a look at what we might mean by 'destiny' is because it appears it is used to mean different things to any speaker in reference. As InesQor pointed out, while it may mean the 'overall circumstances or condition in life' of any person, to other thinkers it might leave open the question as to who ultimately determines such "overall circumstances"?

Some feel strongly that man determines the "overall circumstances"; others feel it must be God who determines it. However, what can we say for definite about the verse that says "time and chance happeneth to them all" (Eccl. 9:11)??
Re: To The Theists, Who Determines/control Destiny, Man Or God? by 5solas(m): 4:21pm On Jun 13, 2010
viaro:

Perhaps a good place to start is to look at what each one of us all mean by that nebulous word 'destiny'.

Inbetween all the points of reference, there seems to be a silverline cutting neatly through it all.

Destiny:
1.  somebody's preordained future: the apparently predetermined and inevitable series of events that happen to somebody or something
Microsoft® Encarta® 2008. © 1993-2007 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Please show us, so I may perhaps sheathe my dagger. grin

Quite a long time Viaro, I have been missing you, your humour and posts.
Re: To The Theists, Who Determines/control Destiny, Man Or God? by Nobody: 5:12pm On Jun 13, 2010
5solas:


They charged the Israelites to choose the way of the Lord, not their destinies! This distinction is important.


No way.
If destiny is about future,then that said they should choose life is talking about their future&destinies. Kindly re-read deuteronomy in the context of the definition of destiny.
Re: To The Theists, Who Determines/control Destiny, Man Or God? by Nobody: 5:21pm On Jun 13, 2010
Viaro&everyone.
the definition i like to stick with on destiny is that it talks about future/what becomes of a man now and at the end.
Solomons end i.e his destiny was determined by God,but by solomon himself. God gave him a path to work with i.e wisdom in 1kings 3&there after the idols&women wasnt given by God to solomon.Solomon choose his destiny&not God.
Re: To The Theists, Who Determines/control Destiny, Man Or God? by viaro: 5:32pm On Jun 13, 2010
5solas:

Quite a long time Viaro, I have been missing you, your humour and posts.

Well, I miss you guys and NL but was unable to post for a few weeks/days due to NL's software. Anyways, glad to be back now.

5solas:

Destiny:
1.  somebody's preordained future: the apparently predetermined and inevitable series of events that happen to somebody or something
Microsoft® Encarta® 2008. © 1993-2007 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Please show us, so I may perhaps sheathe my dagger. grin

Haha. . . well, from Wikipedia this one about 'destiny' and the various ways it is used by different people:

Wikipedia: Destiny may be seen either as a fixed sequence of events that is inevitable and unchangeable, or that individuals choose their own destiny by choosing different paths throughout their life.

As from the above, it is either of two consequences:

[list](a) that it is fixed and inevitable [and in this instance, 'predetermined' for people so that there's nothing anyone could do about it][/list]

[list]and (b) that individuals choose different paths [and as such are able for themselves to determine outcomes thereto].[/list]

This seems to have been recognized in the yester-years by a variety of English speakers, such as we find in the Webster dictionary of 1913:

Webster, 1913:
. . . predetermined state; condition foreordained by the Divine or by human will; fate; lot; doom.
[1913 Webster]

The point at the crossroads here is that, while destiny has been used to include the idea that conditions and outcomes could be determined by human will, other sources define or use it to mean 'a predetermined course of events considered as something beyond human power or control' - which in this case denies that human will has anything to do with one's destiny.

Hence, bewteen all points of references is the underlying thought that it may be argued in some instances (depending on context) that God determines the 'destiny' of people or individuals - and there are loads of verses to argue this to a nonstop; on the other hand, others may argue that man chooses his 'destiny' - thus, this is where "human will" comes into the mix.

However, one has to think deeper when reflecting on Eccl. 9:11 about time and chance happening to us all. The questions are: (a) what is meant by 'time and chance'? and (b) who determines this 'time and chance'?

Time and chance leads us to consider the idea of "luck" being suggested by some other sources/references. But how does God come into "luck"? Or, how does "luck" determine anybody's 'destiny'? Yes, the CEV (Contemporary English Version) reads "bad luck" into Eccl. 9:11, as does the GNB (Good News Bible) - the paraphrased version GW (God's WORD) says in that verse that "time and unpredictable events" overtake us all.

This is what informs my concerns at the beginning that we ought to slow down for a minute or two and ask ourselves what we might mean by 'destiny'. Does it mean "bad luck", or "unpredicatble events". . . or something which we are helpless about and have no say or control whatsoever - or, at the very least, could it be that ultimate outcomes are set before us which invite our human participations at some point?
Re: To The Theists, Who Determines/control Destiny, Man Or God? by Nobody: 5:34pm On Jun 13, 2010
I said in the OP that on one hand its God&on the other its man.
@inesq in the case of paul,he had no part in determining how he became a theist,but God determined it for him.If he never choose to go to damascus,God would have still arrested him. I will disagree with u that its because of his journey to damascus that God caught him.1corin15 is clear from Paul that it Gods grace  
InesQor:

@toba: I didn't say man determines destiny. I said he is the architect. Man participates in the description of his destiny, he does not do it single-handedly. For instance, if Saul had not been so passionate and running to Damascus to do evil, he would not have met his Damascus experience. The same passion with which he persecuted the church (his decisions based on choices available) is the SAME passion with which he preached and taught after his conversion.
Re: To The Theists, Who Determines/control Destiny, Man Or God? by InesQor(m): 5:41pm On Jun 13, 2010
@toba: You misunderstand me, I think. I did not mean that it was BECAUSE he went to damascus that God arrested him. Look at what Jesus said when he caught him, "Why do[b] you[/b] persecute me?". This should clarify my point, Saul had a hand in his own destiny. If he had not been such an active participant, his conversion experience may not have worked out the way it did, IMHO. God chose him for the mission because of the way in which he had previously taken the contrary mission. By grace? True and yes. But Grace does not just jump out in anyone's directions. I hope you see my point.
Re: To The Theists, Who Determines/control Destiny, Man Or God? by viaro: 5:45pm On Jun 13, 2010
Hello toba,

It's a bit difficult to follow you on this subject. It seems to me that on the one hand you agree with some posts; but on the other hand, you're questioning what you agree with. A few examples:

toba:

If destiny is about future,then that said they should choose life is talking about their future&destinies.
. . .it seems that you're disagreeing that destiny is about the future; but then you seemed to have agreed here:
toba:

Viaro&everyone.
the definition i like to stick with on destiny is that it talks about future/what becomes of a man now and at the end.

Anyways, I think we're pointing to the same thing: that destinies are about the future - which is what I meant by "outcomes".
Re: To The Theists, Who Determines/control Destiny, Man Or God? by nuclearboy(m): 5:51pm On Jun 13, 2010
Since I believed, the following has stuck in my mind and when I saw Inesqor's statement "I do not believe in lcuk", it came back

Eccl 9:11 -"I have seen something else under the sun: The race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong. Nor does food come to the wise or wealth to the brilliant or favor to the learned; but time and chance happen to them all"

I believe most of us have had experiences that made us feel there was something out there controlling issues to our favor and atimes disfavor (which many later found out to again be favor). We said "we were lucky". I have heard prophecies that came to pass even though it seemed like the person(s) involved fught against the fulfillment.

Hoe does one explain the above in terms of "luck" and "destiny"?
Re: To The Theists, Who Determines/control Destiny, Man Or God? by InesQor(m): 5:59pm On Jun 13, 2010
@nuclearboy: My understanding of "time and chance" a.k.a "luck and misfortune" is expressed as point 3 i.e. Systems and Laws in post #6 above.

I believe that just like Agricultural and Scientific Laws will work whether you key into them or not, there are laws in operation on earth: spiritual, social, physical laws, with relative tangibility or intangibility. See, for instance, the case of a prehistoric farmer who "mistakenly" plants in cognizance of the crop's natural cycle, nurtures it and fertilizes it and he gets a bountiful harvest. he is amazed and he thinks it's his luck, but in truth it's just his will in line with systems and laws that God had declared from the earth's foundation.

I believe these systems and laws are there, and they respect no one. And only God can bend them, but it won't be something that can be trivialized and expected to happen everytime: God is not a magician. e.g. I won't cast all my money into a lottery and pray for luck.
Re: To The Theists, Who Determines/control Destiny, Man Or God? by viaro: 6:09pm On Jun 13, 2010
^^ Lol, but it seems that you're presenting a case for definiteness and certainties - that is the nature of  'systems' and 'laws'. The only 'systems' I can presently think of that is not defined as a certainty or 'definteness' is the system of randomness (or random systems and stochastic geometry).

However, when you even mention "luck" (whether it appertains to fortune or misfortune), the question is: how does anyone think about the definiteness or certainties of "luck" such as to be classed as a law or system? What would determine "luck" as following any set of laws or systems - be they spiritual, social or physical laws/systems?
Re: To The Theists, Who Determines/control Destiny, Man Or God? by Nobody: 6:17pm On Jun 13, 2010
@viaro hi, i ought to greet first,long how body?
May be its the way i put,but i was implying samething that destiny is about future,end,outcome etc.
I gave biblical examples of God&man determining destiny.
now in our present life what is responsible for destiny man,God,luck or chance? The scope is widening to include ecclesiastes 9:11. In verse one&two of the chapter solomon is saying God determines destiny. When solomon ended badly can that be attributed to God?
Re: To The Theists, Who Determines/control Destiny, Man Or God? by InesQor(m): 6:19pm On Jun 13, 2010
@Viaro: What I meant is that there is a definiteness, a certainty, for the systems. BUT to one who does not know, he thinks it's luck. See this:

Proverbs 16:33
"We may throw the dice, but the Lord determines how they fall"

That is absolute definiteness if you ask me! So, say I WANT a 6 when I throw the dice, but God had determined to allow a 6 as well (at that moment) because it would set in motion a particular string of events (something or the other happens as an upshot of my throwing), I think I am lucky, but I am not. I have simply keyed in to some system that I don't fully understand at the time.

I do not believe luck exists, and I am yet to find support for luck in the Bible.
Re: To The Theists, Who Determines/control Destiny, Man Or God? by nuclearboy(m): 6:22pm On Jun 13, 2010
@Inesqor:

Some disagreement comes to mind instantly.

Races are usually won by the fastest. They are the ones who key into your laws of operation on earth. But sometimes they do not win.
Battle is usually also to the strong - would you normally expect Israel to have won the 6 day war?
Favor usually is to the learned who knows the "principles" to receiving favor and being self-serving, would utilize such.

I remember walking into a storeroom 2 years back in which there was a 7+ foot Spitting Cobra. It just lay there not reacting and I had to remind myself (2ce) that I would be very stupid to touch it since I was dazed that it didn't react. When (shaking like a leaf) I went back a few minutes later with 2 chaps weilding machetes, it changed into one of the most fearsome things I ever saw. That was not normal cos they're more aware than we are.

The reality of life shows often that very often, things happen "against" the grain and I suspect God does the "miracle" thing more often than we know. However He usually masks it and so we say luck.

Re: To The Theists, Who Determines/control Destiny, Man Or God? by Nobody: 6:30pm On Jun 13, 2010
I believe theres luck in almost everything. Scientist believes in luck so do atheist. The atheist who never believe in God can tell his luck didnt come from God but by chance.How will u reconcile that with u saying God masks luck nuclearboy?

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