Ah, yes! I am in the mood for it! So many interesting discussions going on.

In this thread -

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-878904.0.html

We had a branch - off into a discussion on Ancient Aliens - which subject was mercilessly ridiculed by Martian, Pastor AIO and PA1982 i think. Plaetton however leaned towards the possibility - and I certainly do as well.

Now the subject of "Ancient Aliens" is one of the most intriguing that one can come across. It has potential to entirely redefine our understanding of ancient texts - and even our understanding of how this planet was engineered - or even our understanding of how humans came to be here.

I will like to discuss this subject - and I say at the outset to you, Martian - that if you can discount some of the instances I will mention as we go along, what conclusion will you arrive at when you take the entire body of material together? Would you see them all as coincidences?

Ok, let's go.

brb.

Okay, for an intro, I think I can not do any better than the writer of the following has done. I will thus adopt the opening part of his essay as an intro and we can take up the discussion from there.

Imagination is one of the most powerful tools in humanity’s evolutionary struggle for survival. As a race, we are hardwired to consider important concepts, such as the creation of life on Earth and the history of people on this planet. At some point, we are all presented with various explanations and theories regarding the expansion of human life on Earth. In the long history of mankind, the majority of these concepts have followed religious teachings, and the power of a spiritual God or Gods. In modern times, many people have come to challenge these claims.

The idea of evolution has been used to describe the gradual change of traits that living organisms undergo over time, which is related to the environment, but it doesn’t explain how the biological cells of human’s first ancestor were spawned. Because of the fact that everyone is interested in the creation of life on Earth, and concurrently we have been taught to believe in the power of religion and the impossibility of alien life, the idea that this article will be examining is controversial. It will be based around some concepts that have been labeled absurd by the scientific community, but let your imagination go, and have some fun with the list.

The idea surrounding ancient aliens is a basic one. It states that the human population was influenced by a group of extraterrestrials that visited Earth in the past. The aliens were directly involved in the evolution of primates, including humans. It has been suggested that this was accomplished by way of genetic engineering, cross-breeding, or a combination of both, ultimately helping in the development of human cultures, technologies and religion. The idea first gained widespread exposure with the 1968 publication of Chariots of the Gods by Erich von Däniken, but the concept has been around since the middle of the 19th century. A common variant of the idea includes proposals that deities from most, if not all, religions, including angels and demons, are actually extraterrestrials whose advanced technologies were taken by people as evidence of a divine status.

This concept is related to the religious practice of a cargo cult, which can be seen in modern day pre-industrial tribal societies. Especially during World War II, when indigenous people were contacted by soldiers with advanced equipment, such as guns and tanks. The cults subsequently attempted to obtain wealth through magic and religious rituals and practices. The ancient alien theory states that extraterrestrials purposely tricked the human population into believing they were Gods, creating religion to help people evolve more efficiently. The Fermi paradox is the apparent contradiction between high estimates of the probability of the existence of extraterrestrial civilizations and the lack of evidence for, or contact with, such civilizations.

It has been proposed that, with the current age of the universe and its vast number of stars, if the Earth was typical, extraterrestrial life should be common. In response to this paradox, the zoo hypothesis has been suggested. It states that aliens generally avoid making their presence known to humanity, or avoid exerting an influence on development, somewhat akin to zookeepers observing animals in a zoo, or experimental scientists observing a study of life. Adherents of the hypothesis feel that the Earth and humans are being secretly surveyed using equipment located on Earth, or elsewhere in the Solar System. Charles Fort’s unpublished 1915 manuscript, novel X, describes how Martian beings or Martian events control life on Earth. Fort ultimately burnt the manuscript, but one surviving quote from it is “The Earth is a farm. We are someone else’s property.”


http://listverse.com/2011/02/21/top-10-mysteries-surrounding-ancient-aliens/

Okay, I think the foregoing we can adapt as a good summary of the theory in general terms.

I will discuss along different paths - (1)Ancient Art (2) Ancient Texts. For starters.

*Pitches tent*

I brought some lemonade. Got an extra seat?

Looking forward to this debate too. Let's get it underway, shall we.

Hey DeepSight. You have to let these "Ancient Aliens" go my man. First of all, this discussion is going to be an exercise in futility because you are goin to cite guys like this
Erich von Däniken
http://www.skepdic.com/vondanik.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_von_D%C3%A4niken and listverse.com

While I cite legit people like Brian Cox and Neil Tyson.

Second, you keep thinking these ancient monuments had possible alien influence but you're wrong. The people who built the pyramids, temples etc all had the same motivation as the people who built the Sistene Chapel, the church at Notre Dame, the Kaaba, the crystal cathedral. They were all yearning for the "divine". They were all motivated by their deeply held religious beliefs. Transcendence. Superstitions. Ultimately BS.
I was watching this show yesterday and Brian Cox was talking about Light. He went to the Karnak Temple in Egypt and showed how the Temple was SPECIALLY CONSTRUCTED TO ALIGN WITH THE RISING OF THE SUN ON DECEMBER 21 EVERY YEAR". The MAGNIFICENT temple PROBABLY wasn't built or influenced by aliens but by the need for some humans yearn for eternity. They thought the Sun (Amen Ra) was the "One true" god so they built a monument based on their convictions. It's just like modern day christians who build these outlandish "Houses of God"

http://science.discovery.com/videos/wonders-of-the-universe-winter-solstice.html

Unfortunately, this is just a short clip but while you are wondering about Von Daniken's aliens, I'm watching and reading for entertainment , how Astrophysicists tell the make up of distant stars by analysing the spectra. Because every element has a unique color when it burns. I'm just saying.
Von Daniken and co and just like L ron hubbard. Sci Fi writers who some people take too seriously.

Anyway, watch the clip and see the motivation behind Karnak Temple and possibly the "Ancient Alien" influence.

Hello Martian

Thank you for taking up this insteresting discussion. Before we proceed, I wish to make a request of you: Please let us have an open minded discussion without any shades of mockery. I say this because it is customary for mainstream viewpoints to mock fringe view points as delusional - and yet you are surely aware that at several points in history the fringe viewpoints have turned out to be the right viewpoints - reference  - Galileo, Corpernicus, etc.

It has always seemed eminently absurd to the generality of thinkers that certain persons are imaginative enough to presuppose certain things. As for me, in my heart, I have no doubt that -

1. Humans on earth are not the only intelligent civilization in the universe and -

2. In the fullness of time (whether or not in our lifetimes) people who doubt the existence of extra terrestial civilizations will be rendered just as those who opposed Galileo and Corpernicus.

3. If indeed such civilizations have ever interacted with the earth, for me, it certainly does not seem wise to limit such interaction to the modern age alone: for such civilizations would have been vastly older than ours.

Thus my opening request is that you kindly do not resort to mockery: lets have an open and intelligible discussion and see what the evidence actually suggests. I already informed you that I will start with ancient art.

I consider ancient art to be a critical body of evidence in this matter. You yourself will not deny that pieces of ancient art form an imporatnt body of archaelogical study: namely that a drawing, inscription or painting that is dated to say 2000 or more years ago, and which perhaps contains clear pictures of men in aircraft - you your self will not deny that such a thing should at the very minimum provoke discussion and research into the issues that this thread addresses. Because if any archaelogist came across any painting of such an age with normal secular refernces, such a painting will be taken by mainstream science as evidence of the elements that it points to, or at least of the thought of the people who made the painting.

There are many paintings of ancient age that very clearly show aircraft of varying types, as well as depict beings in aircraft decending from the sky. There are also a great many writings that speak of gods descending from teh sky in very suggestive patterns. I will begin to list some of these and let us discuss them one at a time.

Let me say at the outset that there is a great lot of material on this and as such if I do post any artwork or text which is quack or fake, please do not mock me: simply point out the reasons why it is quack or fake and I will not dispute such: we will simply leave them and focus on those we can agree are real ancient drawings and inscriptions. Agreed?

I'll be back. Did you watch the clip?

vescucci:

I brought some lemonade. Got an extra seat? 

LOL. Nize wan

---

@Deep Sight and @Martian

This is lovely. You guys should love this. Below. Read carefully, might add some juice to your engines.

[url=http://www.class.uidaho.edu/eng207-td/Logic%20and%20Analysis/downenpyramidoutline.htm]http://www.class.uidaho.edu/eng207-td/Logic%20and%20Analysis/downenpyramidoutline.htm[/url]

InesQor:

LOL. Nize wan

---

@Deep Sight and @Martian

This is lovely. You guys should love this. Below. Read carefully, might add some juice to your engines.

[url=http://www.class.uidaho.edu/eng207-td/Logic%20and%20Analysis/downenpyramidoutline.htm]http://www.class.uidaho.edu/eng207-td/Logic%20and%20Analysis/downenpyramidoutline.htm[/url]

The original claim itself is fallacious – it is an hypothesis which cannot be tested.  The very definition of a hypothesis is something that is testable.   Also, it hinges entirely on the belief that aliens do exist.  If the audience does not already believe in the existence of extraterrestrials, they are probably not going to be very persuaded by the argument.   It seems that most of the argument is simply fanciful and shows a disregard for scientific proof and the opinions of the experts in the field. 

Whoever wrote this said everything that needs to be said about these Aliens of ours.

Okay Martian, before i begin my posts of art and ancient text, let me ask you - do you deny that there are ancient artworks containing drawings of possible aircraft and spacecraft?

If you accept that that such works exist, what do you think inspired them?

Deep Sight:

Hello Martian

Thank you for taking up this insteresting discussion. Before we proceed, I wish to make a request of you: Please let us have an open minded discussion without any shades of mockery. I say this because it is customary for mainstream viewpoints to mock fringe view points as delusional - and yet you are surely aware that at several points in history the fringe viewpoints have turned out to be the right viewpoints - reference  - Galileo, Corpernicus, etc.
It has always seemed eminently absurd to the generality of thinkers that certain persons are imaginative enough to presuppose certain things. As for me, in my heart, I have no doubt that -

Ok, I promise not to laugh like a jackal. Scout's honor!
Concerning Galileo and Copernicus. You cannot try to use them as examples of the "fringe". Why? Because they used the scientific method in coming to their conclusions. Galileo looked through the telescope while the pope was busy having @rgies talking to God.The people who were wrong were the ones who chose to go against the scientific method and who insisted that their "Alien Overlord" God created everything.
So who's right, Von daniken and his "unscientific" method a la the catholic church, or Carl Sagan and co?

Deep Sight:

Thus my opening request is that you kindly do not resort to mockery: lets have an open and intelligible discussion and see what the evidence actually suggests. I already informed you that I will start with ancient art.

I consider ancient art to be a critical body of evidence in this matter. You yourself will not deny that pieces of ancient art form an imporatnt body of archaelogical study: namely that a drawing, inscription or painting that is dated to say 2000 or more years ago, and which perhaps contains clear pictures of men in aircraft - you your self will not deny that such a thing should at the very minimum provoke discussion and research into the issues that this thread addresses. Because if any archaelogist came across any painting of such an age with normal secular refernces, such a painting will be taken by mainstream science as evidence of the elements that it points to, or at least of the thought of the people who made the painting.

There are many paintings of ancient age that very clearly show aircraft of varying types, as well as depict beings in aircraft decending from the sky. There are also a great many writings that speak of gods descending from teh sky in very suggestive patterns. I will begin to list some of these and let us discuss them one at a time.

Let me say at the outset that there is a great lot of material on this and as such if I do post any artwork or text which is quack or fake, please do not mock me: simply point out the reasons why it is quack or fake and I will not dispute such: we will simply leave them and focus on those we can agree are real ancient drawings and inscriptions. Agreed?

Ok let's see the works of art and I promise again notto say anything disparaging.

Subscribing
The weight of evidence that support the ancien alien theory is overwhelming and all around us, I would have liked to show a lot of the evidences but unfortunately I am posting with my mobile. That not withstanding I would mention a few and would appreciate if someone browsing with a computer can assist in posting pictures/ links to them. It is worthy of note the technology behind these structures remain unknown neither are we able to duplicate them thousands of years later.
* Statues of easter island.
*The stone henge
*The great pyramid of Giza
*The temple of Jupiter/ stone of the pregnant woman

And several other ancient monuments to numerous to list here. But for me the real clincher as absurd as it sounds was from the bible. Were a good number of extra terrestrial phenomena were mentioned. If we take into cognance that those who wrote the bible described things as they understood with their limited vocabulary, we might appreciate that some of the phenomena mentioned in the bible are what we would describe as extra terrestrial today. This website www.bibleufo.com sheds a lot of light on the topic.

Okay Martian. Now there's no need for me to rely on any of the authourities you are taking jibes at above - even where I never mentioned them. All I want us to do is to calmly and rationally discuss the images I post here.

We all know that art imitates life. These images are highly suggestive -

Now the first two images above are ancient models of aircraft. The precise similarity with modern aircraft is undeniably striking. But what is even more interesting is that a scaled enlargement was done of the second image - the wooden aircraft sculpture found in Egypt. The sculpture even had a ridge which had supported a tail rudder. The scaled enlargement was tested by a team of aeronautic engineers and found to be exactly flight worthy in terms of its shape and balance. It was way too exact a replica of modern aircraft as it was an exact representation of this -

Now what can we say about the helmeted figures found in Mexico and Ecuador which I have posted above? Actually I just randomly selected these two examples. In truth there are many dozens of such images made by ancients peoples all over the world. Exactly what were they trying to potray? Could it be something they had seen regularly or from time to time?

The very least that can be agreed between us is that these artefacts certainly are suggestive and at the very minimum the possibility ought to be considered that these people were making images of things that they had seen.

I just finished watching 'UFO hunters' on history channel. The number of reported UFO sightings in these modern times run into the thousands including mass sightings like the phoenix UFO sighting in 2004 which thousands of people across two towns in america saw this low flying giant size UFO. It was reported to be about a mile long. Any one in doubt should google 'phoenix ufo' to verify. The report was carried by all the major news media at that time.

^ When the governor of the state left office, he later admitted on TV that it was an object completely unknown to the Governments operations, that he saw it as well (thousands saw it) and that it was clearly other-worldly. He also stated that there were official pressures on him not to say this while he was in office.

But lets keep to Ancient Aliens for now. We will see as we go along where the modern becomes relevant to the ancient and vice versa.

Here is an extracted analysis of the Wooden airplane sculpture found in Egypt -

By Lumir G. Janku

"This object (shown in sketch) was found in 1898 in a tomb at Saqquara, Egypt and was later dated as having been created near 200 BCE. As airplanes were unknown in the days when it was found, it was thrown into a box marked "wooden bird model" and then stored in the basement of the Cairo museum.

It was rediscovered by Dr. Khalil Messiha, who studied models made by ancients. The "discovery" was considered so important by the Egyptian government that a special committee of leading scientists was established to study the object.

As a result of their findings, a special exhibit was set up in the center hall of the Cairo museum, with the little model as its centerpiece. It was even labelled as a model airplane. 

To elucidate the reasons for the decision of the committee, almost unprecedented in the field of archeology, let's consider some aspects of the model. The model has the exact proportions of a very advanced form of "pusher-glider" that is still having "some bugs ironed out". This type of glider will stay in the air almost by itself—even a very small engine will keep it going at low speeds, as low as 45 to 65 mph., while it can carry an enormous payload. This ability is dependent on the curious shape of wings and their proportions. The tipping of wings downward, a reversedihedral wing as it is called, is the feature behind this capability. A similar type of curving wings are implemented on the Concorde airplane, giving the plane a maximum lift without detracting from its speed.

In that context, it seems rather incredible that someone, more than 2,000 years ago, for any reason, devised a model of a flying device with such advanced features, requiring quite extensive knowledge of aerodynamics. There were no such things as airplanes in these times, we are told by archeologists and historians. But this case seems to be an exception, living in the midst of the rather unimaginative and rigid paradigm of contemporary science. It is also necessary to point out that Egyptians are known to have nearly always made scale-models of projects and objects which they planned to create or build."

Extracted Analysis of the Precolombian Airplane Models

By Lumir G. Janku, 1996

Is the concept of an airplane limited to Egypt? That doesn't seem to be the case. Gold trinkets were found in an area covering Central America and coastal areas of South America, estimated to belong to a period between 500 and 800 CE, but since they are made from gold, accurate dating is impossible and based essentially on stratigraphy which may be deceptive. However, we can safely say that these gold objects are more than 1000 years old.

Whatever this object is supposed to be or represent, its remarkable resemblance to a modern aircraft or spacecraft is uncanny.

As seen from the pictures, the shape of the sample object is rather ambiguous. The archaeologists labelled these objects as zoomorphic, meaning, animal shaped objects. The question is, what animal do they represent? When we compare these with other objects from the same cultures depicting animals, a curious facet of the comparison would be obvious: the other objects are recognizable, rendered usually with a great accuracy and attention to realistic detail.

There are several types of animals which fly—birds, insects, and several mammals, such as bats and some gliders, for instance flying squirrels, oppossums, and then there are some lizards; there are also some fish which for brief periods glide through the air. There are water animals which seem to fly through the water, such as rays, skates and some selachians. But how does the depicted object compare with these choices? All its features taken into a consideration, we have no match. Seen from above, the object obviously has no fish features, but seems to show rather explicitly mechanistic ones.

The structures just in front of the tail are strongly reminiscent of elevons (a combination of ailerons and elevators) with a slight forward curve, but they are attached to the fuselage, rather than the wings. In any case, they look more like airplane parts than like the claspers of a fish. If the two prominent spirals on the wings are supposed to be a stylized version of the eyes of a ray, then what are the two globular objects positioned on the head supposed to represent? To complicate the identification even more, the spirals on the wings have their copies positioned on the nose of the object, in the opposite direction. When the object is viewed in profile, the didsimilarity to anything from the animal kingdom is even more pronounced. If the zoomorphic explanation is supposed to hold, then why did the artist cut the head off almost three quarters from the body? And why is the nose is practically rectangular and the cut tilted forward, with eyes positioned at either side, when fish eyes are usually more near the center of bodyline and far forward on the head?

What we can make of the semicircular grooves on the inside of the cut? What is it supposed to be—fishwise? And what about the scoop, forward and under the cut? It is a scoop, not just a ridge for drilling a hole through to place the object on a necklace chain. Then there is another rectangular feature, positioned further back at the approximate center of gravity under the fuselage. The wings when viewed from the side are perfetly horizontal, but when seen from the front, they curve slightly downward. The elevators, which are right behind the wings, are positioned on a slightly higher horizontal level and are square-ended, thus a definite geometric shape. Above them is another rectangular shape, with a relief which may be reminiscent of knobs. The tail is equally intriguing. No fish has only a single, upright and perpendicular flange. But this tail fin has an exact shape of fins on modern airplanes. There are also some markings on the tail which are hard to identify, but it does not seem to be anything related to animals, either.

When all the features are taken into an account, the object does not look like a representation of any known animal at all, but does look astonishingly like an airplane. The photos and enlarged outline of the object has been submitted for an analysis to several people from the field of aerodynamics. One of them was Arthur Young, a designer of Bell helicopters and other aircraft. His analysis confirmed that the object contains many features which would fit the airplane hypothesis, but there were several ones which would not fit that scenario. Wings do seem to be in the wrong place—they should be further forward so that their 1/4-chord coincides with the center of gravity. The nose is not like anything on airplanes, as well. So, while the object is suggesting an airplane, some features would not seem to support this hypothesis.

But let's entertain several possibilities. If we imagine that the separation after the windshield is not a cockpit and that the pilot and the cargo were located somewhere in the main fuselage body, then we can envision the nose as something else. Let's assume that the nose is actually a jet. If the machine needs to slow down, the jet flow directed against the path of flight would accomplish just that. But how to redirect the jet into the opposite direction? If we envision the nose as a movable part of the plane, turning around the point located where the nose and fuselage meet, thus pivoting the nose downward to tuck it under the fuselage, that would enable the desired effect. What's more, it will re-adjust the center of gravity and the wings would be just in the right place for a high powered flight. Another problem, though, will appear and that is the drag which would be created by the back of the nose now positioned in front. But that can be attributed to artistic license. That seems to be the case, because several other similar planes feature the back part of the nose tilted more forward, so the angle of the back of the nose when pivoted is more corresponding to aerodynamic principles.

All things considered, the object seems to represent a convertible type of craft, with two possible configurations—one for ascent when the nose is facing backwards, and the other for descent with the nose facing forward. One unsolved item remains—the spirals on the both wings and the nose. According to Amerindian iconography, these spirals have discernable meaning—they represent ascending and descending, depending on whether they are right-oriented or left-oriented, respectively. As the spirals are not only on wings but also on the nose, the meaning is fairly obvious—the wings and the nose (as much) were the features which were directly involved in ascent and descent.

There are other cultures which mention flying vehicles of some sort or another. The most known of these sources are Indian epics, especially the Mahábhárata and other Védic sources as Bhágavata Purána and Rámáyana. The flying devices were called vimánas and were extensively discussed in Vaimánika Shástra, describing multitude of machines with different purposes and capabilities.

Other source of information about flying machines may be considered, such as the Bible and some apocryphal works. The book of Ezekiel seems to be describing the close encounter of a man from a non-technological culture with a device which to him must have been miraculous. We have to put ourselves into his shoes to comprehend his astonishment and the otherworldness of his encounter. The limited scope of knowledge of the world around him, his primitive environment, dictated the language and conceptual framework with which he tried to capture his encounter for fellow tribesmen. For him it seemed that he encountered The God, with his suite of angels, because in his simple world, there was no other interpretation. It is not necessary to reach for an alien type of scenario to explain the encounter; we can entertain a possibility that a remnant of an advanced civilization was still present, in a limited scope, at the time of Ezekiel. But for some, the encounter bears uncanny similarity to the modern-day encounters with UFO's. Another source of similar material is the Book of Enoch, particularly the Slavic version, which contains some parts which the Greek version is missing. The book not only describes flying in the air, but also through outer space, including the relativistic effects mentioned—Enoch spent several days on a spacecraft, but when he returned to Earth, several centuries had passed by.

There is no shortage of descriptions of flying machines in ancient sources. If we try to extract the core of myths of different provenience and remove the embellishments, we discover to our surprise that flying in ancient times seems to be the rule, not the exception.

^ But eating amala is not supported by the bible na?

And yet Elijah was taken to eat amala, abi I lie?

FXKing2012:

Stop deceiving yourselves there is no such thing as aliens from other planets, such assertion is not supported in the Bible.

There is much more to life than the myths and legends found in the bible. . . .The bible supports stories like talking donkeys, a man living inside a fish for 3 days, stars fighting along side humans, man parting the sea with a stick, sun standing still etc. . .

Interesting topic, but its difficult to differentiate reality from conspiracy theories when it comes to topics like this. . .

What has conspiracy theories got to do with this topic, mazaye?

mazaje:

There is much more to life than the myths and legends found in the bible. . . .The bible supports stories like talking donkeys, a man living inside a fish for 3 days, stars fighting along side humans, man parting the sea with a stick, sun standing still etc. . .

Interesting topic, but its difficult to differentiate reality from conspiracy theories when it comes to topics like this. . .

Hey, deep sight, i am waiting for the analysis of the Pumapunku Ruins. You dare not omit that in here.

Which one is pumapunku ruins again? I haven't come across that yet.

Deep Sight:

Okay Martian. Now there's no need for me to rely on any of the authourities you are taking jibes at above - even where I never mentioned them. All I want us to do is to calmly and rationally discuss the images I post here.

Deep Sight:

The idea surrounding ancient aliens is a basic one. It states that the human population was influenced by a group of extraterrestrials that visited Earth in the past. The aliens were directly involved in the evolution of primates, including humans. It has been suggested that this was accomplished by way of genetic engineering, cross-breeding, or a combination of both, ultimately helping in the development of human cultures, technologies and religion. The idea first gained widespread exposure with the 1968 publication of[b] Chariots of the Gods by Erich von Däniken[/b], but the concept has been around since the middle of the 19th century. A common variant of the idea includes proposals that deities from most, if not all, religions, including angels and demons, are actually extraterrestrials whose advanced technologies were taken by people as evidence of a divine status.

He is the source.

Deep Sight:

Now the first two images above are ancient models of aircraft. The precise similarity with modern aircraft is undeniably striking. But what is even more interesting is that a scaled enlargement was done of the second image - the wooden aircraft sculpture found in Egypt. The sculpture even had a ridge which had supported a tail rudder. The scaled enlargement was tested by a team of aeronautic engineers and found to be exactly flight worthy in terms of its shape and balance. It was way too exact a replica of modern aircraft as it was an exact representation of this -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saqqara_Bird
Messiha built a model of the Saqqara Bird to test for its aerodynamic efficiency. His model was six times larger than the dimensions of the original in an attempt to maintain its proportional aerodynamic efficiency,[7] and was given a horizontal tailplane to act as a stabilizer, which Messiha believed is a missing part of the original model. Messiha insisted that he was able to make his model fly.[8]

In an attempt to discover whether claims of aerodynamic properties of the Saqqara Bird were correct, Martin Gregorie, a builder and designer of free flight gliders, built a replica of the Saqqara Bird made of balsa wood. After testing this replica, Gregorie concluded: "the Saqqara Bird never flew. It is totally unstable without a tailplane…Even after a tailplane was fitted the glide performance was disappointing."[9] He added: "the Saqqara Bird was probably made as a child's toy or a weather vane."[9]

Who is Lumir G Janku? Notice how he took the picture of the "wooden aircraft" from the back? This source is therefore unreliable and dishonest so he is going to see ancient astronauts in everything.

Pastor Kun:

I just finished watching 'UFO hunters' on history channel. The number of reported UFO sightings in these modern times run into the thousands including mass sightings like the phoenix UFO sighting in 2004 which thousands of people across two towns in america saw this low flying giant size UFO. It was reported to be about a mile long. Any one in doubt should google 'phoenix ufo' to verify. The report was carried by all the major news media at that time.

Can we please leave these "ufo, alien," etc shows out of it? There is a show called "Finding BigFoot", are we now to start discussing big foot? what about the lochness monster?

Deep Sight:

Extracted Analysis of the Precolombian Airplane Models

By Lumir G. Janku, 1996
There are several types of animals which fly—birds, insects, and several mammals, such as bats and some gliders, for instance flying squirrels, oppossums, and then there are some lizards; there are also some fish which for brief periods glide through the air. There are water animals which seem to fly through the water, such as rays, skates and some selachians. But how does the depicted object compare with these choices? All its features taken into a consideration, we have no match. Seen from above, the object obviously has no fish features, but seems to show rather explicitly mechanistic ones.

The structures just in front of the tail are strongly reminiscent of elevons (a combination of ailerons and elevators) with a slight forward curve, but they are attached to the fuselage, rather than the wings. In any case, they look more like airplane parts than like the claspers of a fish. If the two prominent spirals on the wings are supposed to be a stylized version of the eyes of a ray, then what are the two globular objects positioned on the head supposed to represent? To complicate the identification even more, the spirals on the wings have their copies positioned on the nose of the object, in the opposite direction. When the object is viewed in profile, the didsimilarity to anything from the animal kingdom is even more pronounced. If the zoomorphic explanation is supposed to hold, then why did the artist cut the head off almost three quarters from the body? And why is the nose is practically rectangular and the cut tilted forward, with eyes positioned at either side, when fish eyes are usually more near the center of bodyline and far forward on the head?

But this tail fin has an exact shape of fins on modern airplanes. There are also some markings on the tail which are hard to identify, but it does not seem to be anything related to animals, either.

There are other cultures which mention flying vehicles of some sort or another. The most known of these sources are Indian epics, especially the Mahábhárata and other Védic sources as Bhágavata Purána and Rámáyana. The flying devices were called vimánas and were extensively discussed in Vaimánika Shástra, describing multitude of machines with different purposes and capabilities.

There is no shortage of descriptions of flying machines in ancient sources. If we try to extract the core of myths of different provenience and remove the embellishments, we discover to our surprise that flying in ancient times seems to be the rule, not the exception.

I wish i could ask Mr. Janku how many Bird power these flying machine had.

The most amazing of ancient ruins in latin american country of Bolivia, i think. Just google it or utube it up.

Pastor Kun:

Which one is pumapunku ruins again? I haven't come across that yet.

@ Jenwitemi
Thanx I have already googled it, perhaps Martian would be able to give us a 'rational' explaination as to how the ancients cut with precision and moved over large distances stone blocks weighing hundreds of tonnes.

Arguing with Martian is like hitting your head against a rock until blood gushes out!