₦airaland Forum

Just continue to rejoice my brother because many i tell you are out there suffering and deceived day and night for what JEHOVAH has drawn you to come and enjoy {John 6:44} so let your heart be joyful always my brother, you are on the road to everlasting life {Isaiah 30:21 compare to Matthew 7:13-14}
I was a Muslim and a soldier for that matter but i wanted PEACE because that's what we were trained to bring not to destroy. What continue to bother me is the way people die when we go out for peace keeping, because we want opposing sides to surrender BY FORCE whereas each is fighting for his right!
So it was from one Catholic priest that i first heard of the word "CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS" though i wasn't a Christian but i know Jesus never taught his followers to fight talkless kill so i keep laughing at the phrase.
But when i came in contact with JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES i was totally confused because this people are going around the world and doing what soldiers were trained to do without the use of force, weapons or threat of fallen casualties.
What i mean is we force the opposing side to surrender their weapons by using a more powerful weapon, whereas JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES only go to people with their Bibles and the next thing is you'll find people from all races surrendering weapons of war, settling all racial prejudice, forgoing politics and vowing never to raise weapons against anyone forever! Isaiah 2:2-4
Now JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES are doing this like soldiers, because we move batch by batch at the battle front, we mark places where we've conquer and keep some of our boys their to continue keeping the peace. Everything soldiers do is exactly what JWs are doing with just the exception of weapons and force!
That's what convinced me totally that this are truly the followers of the Prince of Peace! Isaiah 9:6

needanswer:
Hmmmm. I am feeling motivated. My lifestyle though. I need to work on it, that's the hardest part. The message is easy for me to understand.

MaxInDHouse:
Just continue to rejoice my brother because many i tell you are out there suffering and deceived day and night for what JEHOVAH has drawn you to come and enjoy {John 6:44} so let your heart be joyful always my brother, you are on the road to everlasting life {Isaiah 30:21 compare to Matthew 7:13-14}
I was a Muslim and a soldier for that matter but i wanted PEACE because that's what we were trained to bring not to destroy. What continue to bother me is the way people die when we go out for peace keeping, because we want opposing sides to surrender BY FORCE whereas each is fighting for his right!
So it was from one Catholic priest that i first heard of the word "CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS" though i wasn't a Christian but i know Jesus never taught his followers to fight talkless kill so i keep laughing at the phrase.
But when i came in contact with JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES i was totally confused because this people are going around the world and doing what soldiers were trained to do without the use of force, weapons or threat of fallen casualties.
What i mean is we force the opposing side to surrender their weapons by using a more powerful weapon, whereas JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES only go to people with their Bibles and the next thing is you'll find people from all races surrendering weapons of war, settling all racial prejudice, forgoing politics and vowing never to raise weapons against anyone forever! Isaiah 2:2-4
Now JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES are doing this like soldiers, because we move batch by batch at the battle front, we mark places where we've conquer and keep some of our boys their to continue keeping the peace. Everything soldiers do is exactly what JWs are doing with just the exception of weapons and force!
That's what convinced me totally that this are truly the followers of the Prince of Peace! Isaiah 9:6

I enjoyed your touching story. Never would have guessed you were a Muslim or a soldier. Look how far you have come . Thanks for sharing. I will work harder to meet the requirements where I am lacking.

needanswer:
I dont quite get that MEDIATE part. Do you mean in prayer, cause if its prayer, they end every prayer with JESUS NAME.

If it is also bible I know they study Jesus life and ministry with me, especially his kingdom message, even the Easter that just past they spoke about jesus and the importance of his sacrifice.

So I dont quite get the mediate part.

A mediator stands between 2 groups of people. A mediator is one who mediates, that is, one who acts as an intermediary to work with opposing sides in order to bring about a settlement. A mediator attempts to influence a disagreement between two parties with the goal of resolving a dispute.

In the new dispensation, the mosaic law is not longer in force, between God and humanity today, Jesus stands as the mediator. The differences and similarities can be seen when you compare the worship arrangement in the old law covenant and the new covenant.

Old Law Covenant
Animals blood were sacrificed
Animals died
Shed blood leads to forgiveness of sins (temporary)
Frequent/Yearly sacrifice needed
Levites were priest of God
Moses was the mediator (between God and men)
Old Covenant in force
Old covenant based on law
Old covenant leads to death
Old covenant written in stone tablet

New Christ Covenant
Jesus blood is sacrificed
Jesus died
Shed blood leads to forgiveness of sins (Permanently)
Sacrificed done once for all time
Jesus is priest
Jesus is the mediator (Jesus is the mediator between God and all men)
New Covenant in force
New covenant based on love (the law of love)
New Covenant leads to life
New Covenant written in hearts

The above listed (new covenant) are the basis of Christianity. All facets of the new covenant apply to all true Christian. It is true JWs pray through Jesus, ask for forgiveness through Jesus among other things. These are in obvious acknowledgement that Jesus is that mediator that acts between God and all men. So that even when I show some of their belief of this, they vehement declare Jesus is their mediator which is a good thing.

This is where the issues are. When you look at all the facets of the new covenant, it applies to all person (or all who accept the Christian faith, Jws inclusive). They offer prayer through Jesus, do not offer animal sacrifice, believed Jesus died for them to be save (they often use the term "grateful for the ransom", believe Jesus is that high priest that presented his blood to God in the most holy (as the high priest in the old law covenant did) etc.

You remember that they have 2 class reward system, where they said some Christians (anointed 144,000) will go to heaven while the remaining will be here on earth. Now, because of this 2 class reward system, and because the bible specifically said that Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant (He 9:15), they are now forced to say that Jesus is not the mediator for all men (against the bible teaching of 1 Ti 2:5) because their believe in the 2 class system says only 144,000 are in the new covenant.

Here is what Hebrews 9:15 says: “For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that He has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.” It is through the new covenant that the ransom is made to free humans from sins, so how are millions of Christians not in the new covenant?

Here is the conundrum facing them... if Jesus is the mediator of all men, it then means that all true Christians (all who accept the Christian faith etc) are Christ brothers, would be with him in heaven (against their traditional belief that only 144,000 would go to heaven). So the leadership created a belief system where Jesus is only a mediator of just 144,000 people but is high priest for all people. By virtue of this one teaching (i.e the 2 class heaven/earth reward system), it forces them to teach that the new covenant is only for 144,000 where Jesus mediates but the benefit of Jesus ransom is applicable to all. This begs the question, if the new covenant does not apply to all Christian or millions of people, why then are they not sacrificing animals, yearly or weekly? Because if you are not bound by the new covenant, then you are bounded by the mosaic law (which is not the case).

So there is this situation where because of one false doctrine (2 class reward system), you are forced to make a series of other false doctrine just to protect it to an extent of saying the new testament (Christian Greek scriptures) was written to only the anointed Christians (144,000 people), so why are millions of people reading it, obeying it and applying it in their lives?

Now, chances are, this old JW couple are unaware of the doctrine on mediating of Jesus. Most JWs are not aware of it, until they are posed with the question. I was not aware of it until I started making my own independent research. The link below explains the topic further

https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/mediator.php

Side Note:
The other downside is this - if Jesus is not mediating for millions of people, who is? You will see how this creates an avenue for the leadership to be secondary mediators, making them more important, casting a big shadow in the eyes of the followers. Here is the reality, they tell members that they need to identify Christ brothers (those called anointed Christians) and to associate with them (eventually as we discuss further, you will see how this is linked with their insistence that you have to belong to a group, most especially their group ).

But here is the reality, when congregations have those Christ brothers within them ( those claim the heavenly hope in their local groups or congregations), they do not fully trust them to be called Christ brothers; they do not talk about stuffs like heavenly hope, how they had the calling, etc, in fact, anything related to heaven is not discuss among them (usually living these ones isolated). These are clearly forbidden, in fact, if these ones with the heavenly hope talks about these things, they will distrust the person more and more, believing he/she is proud and likely does not have such calling. There is this feeling of uneasiness around them. So in reality, the only ones they actually consider to be "truly Christ brothers" are the leadership, the governing body.

So when they the admonition is made to identify and associate with Christ brothers, it is actually a call to identify and stay loyal to the leadership making them indispensable to their faith. Basically masters of their faith they become. A Jw will believe what their leadership says more than what they read or see from the bible, they are train to distrust themselves.


You can find more discussion on the subject here
https://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-mediator.html

rottennaija:
A mediator stands between 2 groups of people. A mediator is one who mediates, that is, one who acts as an intermediary to work with opposing sides in order to bring about a settlement. A mediator attempts to influence a disagreement between two parties with the goal of resolving a dispute.

In the new dispensation, the mosaic law is not longer in force, between God and humanity today, Jesus stands as the mediator. The differences and similarities can be seen when you compare the worship arrangement in the old law covenant and the new covenant.

Old Law Covenant
Animals blood were sacrificed
Animals died
Shed blood leads to forgiveness of sins (temporary)
Frequent/Yearly sacrifice needed
Levites were priest of God
Moses was the mediator (between God and men)
Old Covenant in force
Old covenant based on law
Old covenant leads to death
Old covenant written in stone tablet

New Christ Covenant
Jesus blood is sacrificed
Jesus died
Shed blood leads to forgiveness of sins (Permanently)
Sacrificed done once for all time
Jesus is priest
Jesus is the mediator (Jesus is the mediator between God and all men)
New Covenant in force
New covenant based on love (the law of love)
New Covenant leads to life
New Covenant written in hearts

The above listed (new covenant) are the basis of Christianity. All facets of the new covenant apply to all true Christian. It is true JWs pray through Jesus, ask for forgiveness through Jesus among other things. These are in obvious acknowledgement that Jesus is that mediator that acts between God and all men. So that even when I show some of their belief of this, they vehement declare Jesus is their mediator which is a good thing.

This is where the issues are. When you look at all the facets of the new covenant, it applies to all person (or all who accept the Christian faith, Jws inclusive). They offer prayer through Jesus, do not offer animal sacrifice, believed Jesus died for them to be save (they often use the term "grateful for the ransom", believe Jesus is that high priest that presented his blood to God in the most holy (as the high priest in the old law covenant did) etc.

You remember that they have 2 class reward system, where they said some Christians (anointed 144,000) will go to heaven while the remaining will be here on earth. Now, because of this 2 class reward system, and because the bible specifically said that Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant (He 9:15), they are now forced to say that Jesus is not the mediator for all men (against the bible teaching of 1 Ti 2:5) because their believe in the 2 class system says only 144,000 are in the new covenant.

Here is what Hebrews 9:15 says: “For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that He has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.” It is through the new covenant that the ransom is made to free humans from sins, so how are millions of Christians not in the new covenant?

Here is the conundrum facing them... if Jesus is the mediator of all men, it then means that all true Christians (all who accept the Christian faith etc) are Christ brothers, would be with him in heaven (against their traditional belief that only 144,000 would go to heaven). So the leadership created a belief system where Jesus is only a mediator of just 144,000 people but is high priest for all people. By virtue of this one teaching (i.e the 2 class heaven/earth reward system), it forces them to teach that the new covenant is only for 144,000 where Jesus mediates but the benefit of Jesus ransom is applicable to all. This begs the question, if the new covenant does not apply to all Christian or millions of people, why then are they not sacrificing animals, yearly or weekly? Because if you are not bound by the new covenant, then you are bounded by the mosaic law (which is not the case).

So there is this situation where because of one false doctrine (2 class reward system), you are forced to make a series of other false doctrine just to protect it to an extent of saying the new testament (Christian Greek scriptures) was written to only the anointed Christians (144,000 people), so why are millions of people reading it, obeying it and applying it in their lives?

Now, chances are, this old JW couple are unaware of the doctrine on mediating of Jesus. Most JWs are not aware of it, until they are posed with the question. I was not aware of it until I started making my own independent research. The link below explains the topic further

https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/mediator.php

Side Note:
The other downside is this - if Jesus is not mediating for millions of people, who is? You will see how this creates an avenue for the leadership to be secondary mediators, making them more important, casting a big shadow in the eyes of the followers. Here is the reality, they tell members that they need to identify Christ brothers (those called anointed Christians) and to associate with them (eventually as we discuss further, you will see how this is linked with their insistence that you have to belong to a group, most especially their group ).

But here is the reality, when congregations have those Christ brothers within them ( those claim the heavenly hope in their local groups or congregations), they do not fully trust them to be called Christ brothers; they do not talk about stuffs like heavenly hope, how they had the calling, etc, in fact, anything related to heaven is not discuss among them (usually living these ones isolated). These are clearly forbidden, in fact, if these ones with the heavenly hope talks about these things, they will distrust the person more and more, believing he/she is proud and likely does not have such calling. There is this feeling of uneasiness around them. So in reality, the only ones they actually consider to be "truly Christ brothers" are the leadership, the governing body.

So when they the admonition is made to identify and associate with Christ brothers, it is actually a call to identify and stay loyal to the leadership making them indispensable to their faith. Basically masters of their faith they become. A Jw will believe what their leadership says more than what they read or see from the bible, they are train to distrust themselves.


You can find more discussion on the subject here
https://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-mediator.html

Thanks for your detailed response. I'll be brief though. Still stressed for now.

I learnt from my study that jesus said that the righteous will live both in heaven and on earth, matt 5: 3,5.

Jesus also said that of all men born from women, John the Baptist was the greatest but the least person in heaven is greater than John the Baptist, Luke 7:28. Why is that so? I learnt that was because John did not take part in the lord's last supper as such is not born again to enter into the heavens. His portion is on earth.

I learnt that David did not ascend to heaven with the saints despite been righteous, acts 2:34. And this was said during the time of the apostles.

I learnt jesus death frees us from sin and death giving us the opposite which Adam lost and that is everlasting life on earth. Jesus taking some to rule in heaven is to bring about that paradise earth.

Jesus death gives us everlasting life, that was what Adam lost and that was what he restored.

needanswer:
I'll look up those books and see the knowledge they contain, but I doubt they will provide me any valuable information on organized religion, like which is the best, if anything like that exist.

I reached out to you mainly because I thought you must have found a better alternative by now. I'll appreciate that if you can, if not what are the alternatives?

I feel personal religion is living in denial, cause when it comes to religion, you are either fully into it or you are not into it at all. Those sitting on the fence should just be atheist and that has its flaws, many of them.

So now I am like this

I once read in a website that there is nothing like a true religion, that the very concept of religion is based on human making. When it comes to human and its organization, you are likely going to see that they will be so invested in their organization surviving even when it means continuing a false belief. We see this all too often in government organizations, companies, movies ... religion is no different.

Like I said in my first second response to you, I try as much as possible to avoid big organized groups or religion. For me, the fewer the better, because when few people see they made an error, they will very likely correct it. But when big organization see it, correcting such might likely bring unpleasant consequences, especially an organization that is highly invested in it's image. In such organization, truth does not matter, only being consistent matters.

needanswer:
I feel personal religion is living in denial, cause when it comes to religion, you are either fully into it or you are not into it at all. Those sitting on the fence should just be atheist and that has its flaws, many of them.

So now I am like this

On the subject of atheisms, probably dues to our indoctrination, I think we have been made to fall into a false dichotomy. If you observe the current trend, there is a growing number of people that are Christians but do not want to have anything to do with organized religion. And it is projected that such numbers will continue to grow. So it fall into a false argument that you must to belong to a religion to worship God. Often, those who make these argument are trying to preserve what they hold dear.

needanswer:
Thanks for your detailed response. I'll be brief though. Still stressed for now.

I learnt from my study that jesus said that the righteous will live both in heaven and on earth, matt 5: 3,5.

Jesus also said that of all men born from women, John the Baptist was the greatest but the least person in heaven is greater than John the Baptist, Luke 7:28. Why is that so? I learnt that was because John did not take part in the lord's last supper as such is not born again to enter into the heavens. His portion is on earth.

I learnt that David did not ascend to heaven with the saints despite been righteous, acts 2:34. And this was said during the time of the apostles.

I learnt jesus death frees us from sin and death giving us the opposite which Adam lost and that is everlasting life on earth. Jesus taking some to rule in heaven is to bring about that paradise earth.

Jesus death gives us everlasting life, that was what Adam lost and that was what he restored.

Do you want my response to each of these or can forget about them?

rottennaija:
I once read in a website that there is nothing like a true religion, that the very concept of religion is based on human making. When it comes to human and its organization, you are likely going to see that they will be so invested in their organization surviving even when it means continuing a false belief. We see this all too often in government organizations, companies, movies ... religion is no different.

Like I said in my first second response to you, I try as much as possible to avoid big organized groups or religion. For me, the fewer the better, because when few people see they made an error, they will very likely correct it. But when big organization see it, correcting such might likely bring unpleasant consequences, especially an organization that is highly invested in it's image. In such organization, truth does not matter, only being consistent matters.

On the subject of atheisms, probably dues to our indoctrination, I think we have been made to fall into a false dichotomy. If you observe the current trend, there is a growing number of people that are Christians but do not want to have anything to do with organized religion. And it is projected that such numbers will continue to grow. So fall into a false argument that you to belong to a religion to worship God. Often, those who make these argument are trying to preserve what they hold dear.

Very good observation there.

rottennaija:
Do you want my response to each of these or can forget about them?

If you will be concise then I am open to it.

rottennaija:
I once read in a website that there is nothing like a true religion, that the very concept of religion is based on human making. When it comes to human and its organization, you are likely going to see that they will be so invested in their organization surviving even when it means continuing a false belief. We see this all too often in government organizations, companies, movies ... religion is no different.

Like I said in my first second response to you, I try as much as possible to avoid big organized groups or religion. For me, the fewer the better, because when few people see they made an error, they will very likely correct it. But when big organization see it, correcting such might likely bring unpleasant consequences, especially an organization that is highly invested in it's image. In such organization, truth does not matter, only being consistent matters.

On the subject of atheisms, probably dues to our indoctrination, I think we have been made to fall into a false dichotomy. If you observe the current trend, there is a growing number of people that are Christians but do not want to have anything to do with organized religion. And it is projected that such numbers will continue to grow. So it fall into a false argument that you must to belong to a religion to worship God. Often, those who make these argument are trying to preserve what they hold dear.

To your conclusion, I think the answer is simple. People are social beings as such they follow current trends whether intentionally or subconsciously. It's simply the trend to be a free thinker these days, but that doesnt change the facts or what is right.

Just the way it is unnatural for man and man or woman and woman or humans and objects to have romantic relationships even marriage, it is a trend that is on the rise today, still doesnt make it natural or right but it's becoming the norm.

To the other part, if you truly believe religion is a concept of man then religion is falsehood in itself. JW and every other religion should be castigated by you seeing they are all falsehood and a figment of human imagination. But I dont believe this to be true myself.

Evolution, the only other natural way of explaining life is a very faulty theory, i have dismantled it severally to atheist and they couldn't answer. It turns out you still need BLIND FAITH TO BELIEVE MANY ASPECT OF IT, even though mathematical, experimental and scientific data cannot confirm it. Evolution turns out to be just another figment of man's imagination but it's a convenient take for theist deniers.

needanswer:
To your conclusion, I think the answer is simple. People are social beings as such they follow current trends whether intentionally or subconsciously. It's simply the trend to be a free thinker these days, but that doesnt change the facts or what is right.

Just the way it is unnatural for man and man or woman and woman or humans and objects to have romantic relationships even marriage, it is a trend that is on the rise today, still doesnt make it natural or right but it's becoming the norm.

To the other part, if you truly believe religion is a concept of man then religion is falsehood in itself. JW and every other religion should be castigated by you seeing they are all falsehood and a figment of human imagination. But I dont believe this to be true myself.

Evolution, the only other natural way of explaining life is a very faulty theory, i have dismantled it severally to atheist and they couldn't answer. It turns out you still need BLIND FAITH TO BELIEVE MANY ASPECT OF IT, even though mathematical, experimental and scientific data cannot confirm it. Evolution turns out to be just another figment of man's imagination but it's a convenient take for theist deniers.

I happen to believe that Religion- a system of faith and worship- is falsehood particularly since it is simply man's way of exerting control over his fellow men.. it is all man made.

As I mentioned in previous posts, Jesus Christ is a contract between God and individual men. There is no place for third parties in that contract and this Truth established by God over 2000 years ago - independent of today's trends. But look around you, that Contract, still true to this day, mind you, is majorly ignored so that the religions of men can dominate and grow over the Truth of God.

Kobojunkiee:
I happen to believe that Religion- a system of faith and worship- is falsehood particularly since it is simply man's way of exerting control over his fellow men.. it is all man made.

As I mentioned in previous posts, Jesus Christ is a contract between God and individual men. There is no place for third parties in that contract and this Truth established by God over 2000 years ago - independent of today's trends. But look around you, that Contract, still true to this day, mind you, is majorly ignored so that the religions of men can dominate and grow over the Truth of God.

Your 2 paragraphs seem to be contradictory. Christianity is a religion, there are so many others. So if you believe christianity is man made since it's a religion then you have discredited it already.

needanswer:
Your 2 paragraphs seem to be contradictory. Christianity is a religion, there are so many others. So if you believe christianity is man made since it's a religion then you have discredited it already.

Yes, Christianity is a religion created by men as a way of "controlling" the access of other men to God and the things of God.

Jesus Christ never gave you "Christianity", though. Instead, what He gives each and every man is a contract, direct access to God for individual use.

From the very beginning, God made it known to man that what He wants is a direct relationship with man, and all He asked and continues to ask is that we each trust and obey the terms of the agreement between Himself and individual man.

Yes, humans are social creatures but God isn't human and so should not be made subject to our nature and ways of perceiving our existence. He is God and God wants nothing else but a one-on-one relationship with man.

It's like he's having a tough time getting you to think like him so let me help him!

Jesus is the Highpriest who takes the sacrifice into the Most Holy in heaven, just as the Highpriest in ancient Israel is the one and only person who can enter the Most Holy inside the Temple.

But while all Israelites know the Highpriest in Israel and can speak to him, all his sacred duties in the temple is with the other priests no Israelite comes to present his/her gift directly to the Highpriest, their sacrifices comes into the Temple through the Levites though the highpriest himself is a levite by birth.

So the same way it happens after Jesus (the new Highpriest) came to establish the new covenant, whatever anyone wants to offer as sacrifice of praise inside this spiritual temple must pass through the spiritual Levites (144,000) that's why all other religions are not organized and orderly in their worship because each religionst feels that since he/she has direct access to Jesus' name and can approach God's throne personaly then they can also determine the mode of worship that pleases them, this is what makes JW organization differ totally from all others.

Satan continue to blindfold them by assisting them with fruitless, worthless and purposeless signs and wonders {Revelations 13:13, 16:14, 19:20} as if whatever mode of worship they choose is OK!

So Jesus was referring to the disorderliness that this people will practice in his name while performing their so called miracles when he said "many will say to me 'Lord, Lord we performed so many miracles in your name' then i will say to them 'i never knew you, get away from me you workers of LAWLESSNESS (INIQUITY)'"

Their Iniquity is what is causing confusion among them so even when they're claiming worshipers of the same God, they find it difficult to come to terms on mode of worship!

So just like the Israelites of old who has no right to perform any sacred service unauthorized by the priests {1Samuel 13:9-14} Jehovah's Witnesses know that the mode of worship must be in line with what the 144,000 born again teaches the great crowd, because Jesus is working directly with them not just everyone calling his name! Revelations 14:4

needanswer:
Thanks for your detailed response. I'll be brief though. Still stressed for now.
I learnt from my study that jesus said that the righteous will live both in heaven and on earth, matt 5: 3,5.
Jesus also said that of all men born from women, John the Baptist was the greatest but the least person in heaven is greater than John the Baptist, Luke 7:28. Why is that so? I learnt that was because John did not take part in the lord's last supper as such is not born again to enter into the heavens. His portion is on earth.
I learnt that David did not ascend to heaven with the saints despite been righteous, acts 2:34. And this was said during the time of the apostles.
I learnt jesus death frees us from sin and death giving us the opposite which Adam lost and that is everlasting life on earth. Jesus taking some to rule in heaven is to bring about that paradise earth. Jesus death gives us everlasting life, that was what Adam lost and that was what he restored.

Kobojunkiee:
Yes, Christianity is a religion created by men as a way of "controlling" the access of other men to God and the things of God.

Jesus Christ never gave you Christianity, though. Instead, what He gave each and every man is a contract, direct access to God for each individual to have, complete in itself.

From the very beginning, God made it known to man that what He wants is a direct relationship with man, and all He asked and continues to ask is that we each trust and obey the terms of the agreement between Himself and individual man.

Yes, humans are social creatures but God isn't human and so should not be made subject to our nature and ways of perceiving our existence. He is God and God wants nothing else but a one-on-one relationship with man.

And you knew about jesus who lived more than 20 centuries ago from where? You meet him at home?

Was it not through the bible you knew him. Was it not his disciples that wrote half of that book? Was it not those same disciples the spoke with in flesh and later in spirit when he ascended to heaven?

Was it not all those information that was compiled in the book called the bible that you read about jesus from, including books directed to churches like romans etc?

2 Tim 3:16,17 tells you the source of the entire bible which is from God.

MaxInDHouse:
It's like he's having a tough time getting you to think like him so let me help him!

Jesus is the Highpriest who takes the sacrifice into the Most Holy in heaven, just as the Highpriest in ancient Israel is the one and only person who can enter the Most Holy inside the Temple.

But while all Israelites know the Highpriest in Israel and can speak to him, all his sacred duties in the temple is with the other priests no Israelite comes to present his/her gift directly to the Highpriest, their sacrifices comes into the Temple through the Levites though the highpriest himself is a levite by birth.

So the same way it happens after Jesus (the new Highpriest) came to establish the new covenant, whatever anyone wants to offer as sacrifice of praise inside this spiritual temple must pass through the spiritual Levites (144,000) that's why all other religions are not organized and orderly in their worship because each religionst feels that since he/she has direct access to Jesus' name and can approach God's throne personaly then they can also determine the mode of worship that pleases them, this is what makes JW organization differ totally from all others.

Satan continue to blindfold them by assisting them with fruitless, worthless and purposeless signs and wonders {Revelations 13:13, 16:14, 19:20} as if whatever mode of worship they choose is OK!

So Jesus was referring to the disorderliness that this people will practice in his name while performing their so called miracles when he said "many will say to me 'Lord, Lord we performed so many miracles in your name' then i will say to them 'i never knew you, get away from me you workers of LAWLESSNESS (INIQUITY)'"

Their Iniquity is what is causing confusion among them so even when they're claiming worshipers of the same God, they find it difficult to come to terms on mode of worship!

So just like the Israelites of old who has no right to perform any sacred service inside the temple, Jehovah's Witnesses know that the mode of worship most be in line with what the 144,000 born again teaches the great crowd, because Jesus is working directly with them not just everyone calling his name! Revelations 14:4

Thanks for the input too.

needanswer:
And you knew about jesus who lived more than 20 centuries ago from where? You meet him at home?

Was it not through the bible you knew him. Was it not his disciples that wrote half of that book? Was it not those same disciples the spoke with in flesh and later in spirit when he ascended to heaven?

Was it not all those information that was compiled in the book called the bible that you read about jesus from, including books directed to churches like romans etc?

2 Tim 3:16,17 tells you the source of the entire bible which is from God.

I bet even the pharisees and the many other shepherds of Old, all of them men of the established religion of the day, offered a similar rebuttal when Ezekiel announced to then in Ezekial 34 that God declared Himself against them and their establishment.

Recall that all knowledge of good and evil belongs to God, not religion or men. That there ought to clue you into the truth of God which is that ALL knowledge, not just that found in your Bible, belongs to and hence is iNSPIRED BY God. Yes, even the the knowledge and Word of God stored up in your Bible today does not belong to any man but to God. So, if God wants to use it to teach anyone of His, it is His to use as He chooses.

That said, I didn't first know God through the Bible... I came to know Him by following that tiny voice inside of me to finding Him. He then led me to reading books, most of them extrabiblical.

Kobojunkiee:
I bet even the pharisees and the many other shepherds of Old, all of them men of the established religion of the day, offered a similar rebuttal when Ezekiel announced to then in Ezekial 34 that God had declared Himself against them all.

Recall that all knowledge of good and evil belongs to God, not religion or men. So, even the the knowledge and Word of God stored up in your Bible today does not belong to any man but to God. So, if God wants to use it to teach anyone of His, it is His to use as He chooses.

That said, I didn't first know God through the Bible... I came to know Him by following that tiny voice inside of me to finding Him. He then led me to reading books, most of them extrabiblical.

Those extrabiblical books are why we cant agree. 2 Tim 3:16,17 already tells you not to doubt any part of the bible and it is from God including parts you may not want to accept like how the early churches were formed and how the apostle were going from places to places to strengthen those churches.

Read more of the bible, maybe then we can agree on something.

needanswer:
Those extrabiblical books are why we cant agree. 2 Tim 3:16,17 already tells you not to doubt any part of the bible and it is from God including parts you may not want to accept like how the early churches were formed and how the apostle were going from places to places to strengthen those churches.

Read more of the bible, maybe then we can agree on something.

The extrabiblical books have nothing to do with this. So, please spare us the lazy attempts at an excuse.

When Paul wrote his letter to Timothy, a mere letter that you now consider scripture, many of those extrabiblical scripture that are not found in your bible today, were considered, and read by even paul himself while he was a pharisee. What you call "the Bible" did not exist at that time either.

Now extrabiblical knowledge not restricted to scripture also belongs to God as is established for you beginning in the book of Genesis. You are told there that God is the owner of all knowledge, meaning all knowledge is inspired by Him. Paul telling you that scripture is inspired by God does not negate the fact that All knowledge of good and evil, including that which is extrabiblical , is all inspired by God.

Now, God does not tell you to put your trust in the bible or in any book. He instead tells you to put your Trust in Him and in His Word. It would be obvious to anyone who in fact reads the bible that the book does not only contain the declarations of God alone. You find the words and opinions of men in there, evil men as well including words of demons and Satan too. Does all that constitute the Word of God? No, instead the Word of God refers to the Words directly attributed to the person of God(Jesus Christ also). This idea of believing in the bible- doctrines that teach holiness and inerrancy of the book alone- has no bearing in scripture as it is a product of religion that has helped enslave the minds of so many. Of course religion has to package all these lies in name of God in order to deceive the gullible and ignorant out there.

Kobojunkiee:
The extrabiblical books have nothing to do with this. So, please spare us the lazy attempts at an excuse.

When Paul wrote his letter to Timothy, a mere letter that you now consider scripture, many of those extrabiblical scripture that are not found in your bible today, were considered, and read by even paul himself while he was a pharisee. What you call "the Bible" did not exist at that time either.

Now extrabiblical knowledge not restricted to scripture also belongs to God as is established for you beginning in the book of Genesis. You are told there that God is the owner of all knowledge, meaning all knowledge is inspired by Him. Paul telling you that scripture is inspired by God does not negate the fact that All knowledge of good and evil, including that which is extrabiblical , is all inspired by God.

Now, God does not tell you to put your trust in the bible or in any book. He instead tells you to put your Trust in Him and in His Word. It would be obvious to anyone who in fact reads the bible that the book does not only contain the declarations of God alone. You find the words and opinions of men in there, evil men as well including words of demons and Satan too. Does all that constitute the Word of God? No, instead the Word of God refers to the Words directly attributed to the person of God(Jesus Christ also). This idea of believing in the bible- doctrines that teach holiness and inerrancy of the book alone- has no bearing in scripture as it is a product of religion that has helped enslave the minds of so many. Of course religion has to package all these lies in name of God in order to deceive the gullible and ignorant out there.

Now I see why we cant agree on the bible. You rely so heavily on extrabiblical books that are not from God, only the bible is.

Only Paul was called an apostle to the gentiles (none jews) and through him the message of christianity spread through Europe and down to us all and you are discrediting him and his missionary work because you dont agree with what God directed him to write in 2 Tim 3:16,17?

I believe, you believe you are more of a Christian than Paul and you are better than him, seeing how you rubbished him. He died as a martyr for jesus in the bible preaching to the Romans and he died for the word.

Read your extrabiblical books all you like but dont pretend you are fighting for the faith of christianity if you can rubbish Paul and the words God directed him to write to prove a point, which isn't even biblical or in the word of God.

The highlighted reminds me of an Iman who wanted to establish the use of hijab (veil) in the Bible.
I was dumbfounded when this man quoted Paul.
Why? Because he taught us back then that Paul didn't know Jesus so his writing is NOT INSPIRED!
It was later when i became one of JWs that i realized there is no verse from Genesis to Revelation where anyone can quote to back the hijab apart from Paul's letter!

needanswer:
Now I see why we cant agree on the bible. You rely so heavily on extrabiblical books that are not from God, only the bible is.

Only Paul was called an apostle to the gentiles (none jews) and through him the message of christianity spread through Europe and down to us all and you are discrediting him and his missionary work because you dont agree with what God directed him to write in 2 Tim 3:16,17?

I believe, you believe you are more of a Christian than Paul and you are better than him, seeing how you rubbished him. He died as a martyr for jesus in the bible preaching to the Romans and he died for the word.

Read your extrabiblical books all you like but dont pretend you are fighting for the faith of christianity if you can rubbish Paul and the words God directed him to write to prove a point, which isn't even biblical or in the word of God.

needanswer:
Now I see why we cant agree on the bible. You rely so heavily on extrabiblical books that are not from God, only the bible is.

Only Paul was called an apostle to the gentiles (none jews) and through him the message of christianity spread through Europe and down to us all and you are discrediting him and his missionary work because you dont agree with what God directed him to write in 2 Tim 3:16,17?

I believe, you believe you are more of a Christian tha Paul and you are better than him, seeing how you rubbished him. He died as a martyr for jesus in the bible preaching to the Romans and he died for the word.

Read your extrabiblical books all you like but dont pretend you are fighting for the faith of christianity if you can rubbish Paul and the words God directed him to write to prove a point, which isn't even biblical or in the word of God.

That I have read extrabiblical idea does not imply that I rely on extrabiblical items. So stop quipping about what you know nothing of.

I instead rely on God Himself to teach me His truth, just as He declared of His New Covenant, that He would. God declared through His prophets Isaiah, Ezekial, Jeremiah and others that in His New Covenant, He alone will be Teacher/Shepherd/Father/Master/Comforter/Counselor/Helper, etc. to all those who belong to Him. He has been my one and only teacher, that is why you and I can't agree because I don't see God from religions point of view but from the point of view I have been given by God Himself.
For example, your religion tells you that only Paul was called to the gentiles, but anyone with an open eye would realize that this is not true at all since Jesus Christ Himself already commanded His disciples, after He rose from the grave- his resurrection of great significance to this, by the way - into the world to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom to all . P.s. the world was not filled, even at that them with just jews.

I don't need to be a Christian more than Paul. I am simply a follower of Jesus Christ just like Paul and the others were - we are all equal in the Kingdom of God.

Kobojunkiee:
That I have read extrabiblical idea does not imply that I rely on extrabiblical items. So stop quipping about what you know nothing of.

I instead rely on God Himself to teach me His truth, just as He declared of His New Covenant, that He would. God declared through His prophets Isaiah, Ezekial, Jeremiah and others that in His New Covenant, He alone will be Teacher/Shepherd/Father/Master/Comforter/Counselor/Helper, etc. to all those who belong to Him. He has been my one and only teacher, that is why you and I can't agree because I don't see God from religions point of view but from the point of view I have been given by God Himself.
For example, your religion tells you that only Paul was called to the gentiles, but anyone with an open eye would realize that this is not true at all since Jesus Christ Himself already commanded His disciples, after He rose from the grave- his resurrection of great significance to this, by the way - into the world to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom to all . P.s. the world was not filled, even at that them with just jews.

I don't need to be a Christian more than Paul. I am simply a follower of Jesus Christ just like Paul and the others were - we are all equal in the Kingdom of God.

As long as you deny 2 Tim 3:16,17 which is part of the bible and every bible in the world from the 1st century till date then I can tell you you dont actually hold the word of God in high esteem.

To deny one part of the bible is to deny all parts of the bible. The concluding part of Revelation says do not add or subtract from the word, take it as it is.

So that's my message for you. I wish you the best.

MaxInDHouse:
The highlighted reminds me of an Iman who wanted to establish the use of hijab (veil) in the Bible.
I was dumbfounded when this man quoted Paul.
Why? Because he taught us back then that Paul didn't know Jesus so his writing is NOT INSPIRED!
It was later when i became one of JWs that i realized there is no verse from Genesis to Revelation where anyone can quote to back the hijab apart from Paul's letter!

I agree with you. Its is distasteful for anyone to deny Paul as not been inspired of God in his writings. He wrote the most part of the new testament.

needanswer:
As long as you deny 2 Tim 3:16,17 which is part of the bible and every bible in the world from the 1st century till date then I can tell you you dont actually hold the word of God in high esteem.

To deny one part of the bible is to deny all parts of the bible. The concluding part of Revelation says do not add or subtract from the word, take it as it is.

So that's my message for you. I wish you the best.

But I don't deny any part of the Bible, not even what Paul wrote in his letter to Timothy. You are the one who assumes that I do.

I simply see it for what it is ...something religion has blinded those of you who subscribe to it and its many doctrines, to.

Jesus Christ warned you against the doctrines and traditions of men, what He declared were lies, that had the consequences of drawing those who imbibe and follow after them away from God and His Truth. Your religions are built in exactly those -doctrines and traditions of men- and as Jesus Christ said, they lead away, not towards God.

Kobojunkiee:
But I don't deny any part of the Bible, not even what Paul wrote in his letter to Timothy. You are the one who assumes that I do.

I simply see it for what it is ...something religion has blinded those of you who subscribe to it and its many doctrines, to.

Jesus Christ warned you against the doctrines and traditions of men, what He declared were lies, that had the consequences of drawing those who imbibe and follow after them away from God and His Truth. Your religions are built in exactly those -doctrines and traditions of men- and as Jesus Christ said, they lead away, not towards God.

There is no point twisting words, as you can tell I am straight forward, I have told you what I have for you. Do with it as you please, no need to be beating around the Bush with me.

I am not in that frame of mind yesterday and today. Thanks

needanswer:
Thanks for your detailed response. I'll be brief though. Still stressed for now.

I learnt from my study that jesus said that the righteous will live both in heaven and on earth, matt 5: 3,5.

Matthew 5:3-5 New International Version
3. “Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need,+ since the Kingdom of the heavens belongs to them.
5 “Happy are the mild-tempered,+ since they will inherit the earth.+

This is what JWs think they believe. Here is the reality in simple concise way, all true Christians are conscious of their spiritual need. That is why they accepted to have faith in Jesus and his blood to cleanse their sins for salvation. Any body who believes in God, Jesus, bible, etc are conscious of their spiritual needs. The original greek word for Mt 3:3 means poor (beggar) in spirit. It shows the idea of a destitute condition where you depend on others to fill that need. In this case, an individual understands his destitute situation, in need of a higher assistance for salvation since all are sinners.

All JWs are conscious of their spiritual needs. That is why they pray, read the bible, beg for forgiveness of sins etc. Mt 5:3 says, those conscious of their spiritual needs are happy since the kingdom of the heavens belong to them. It is that simple. All baptized Christian are conscious of their spiritual needs.

Matthew 5:3-5
5 “Happy are the mild-tempered,+ since they will inherit the earth.+

I will keep this very simple. Mild tempered ones are happy because they will inherit the earth. Take note of these words, "inherit the earth" Mt 5:5, "belong to them" Mt 5:3. If I might ask you, who inherit what? Can a servant inherit what belongs to sons or daughters? No. Or in the context of Mt 5:3, can a servant claim ownership of what does not belong to them? Only sons and daughters own, inherits what, not servant or hired hands.

Here is my point. Mt 5:5 applied principally to Jesus and to his anointed brothers. (Most JWs quoting the passage are not aware of but it is there in their publications). As the preeminent mild-tempered one, it is Jesus whom God has appointed “as heir of all things”. It is to Jesus whom his father has willed to nations as “his inheritance, and the ends of the earth his possession”. (He 1:2, Ps 2:8 )

Jesus’ followers, by virtue of their faith in him and his blood, are adopted as sons of God. (Jn 1:12; 1 Jn 5:1-4; Ga 3:26) As sons, they are also heirs of God, joint heirs with Jesus (Ro 8:17). As joint heir, they share in his inheritance, including the earth, which belongs to Jehovah and which he has willed to his son (Ps 24:1; 1 Co 10:26).

So how can those who are not Christ brothers share in inheriting the earth? It is like asking, how can tenant (who are not related to the family) share in inheriting the properties? It simply is not possible, unless it has been willed to them. These are what JWs do not know. They cannot inherit the earth unless they are anointed ones, christ brothers.

Here is another interesting point. In my previous response, I had said that because of creating a false 2 class system, it has force them to exclude millions from the new covenant and Jesus mediating role. Now, it gets even more interesting. Take a survey into JWs publications, you will see that in their mention and trying to apply Mt 5:5 to those whom they say will live on earth, in each of such references, the inherit of Mt 5:5 is always enclosed in double quote. Why? Because the verse does not apply to the supposed earthly class but to Jesus and his anointed brothers, basically those going to heaven.

Jesus also said that of all men born from women, John the Baptist was the greatest but the least person in heaven is greater than John the Baptist, Luke 7:28. Why is that so? I learnt that was because John did not take part in the lord's last supper as such is not born again to enter into the heavens. His portion is on earth.

This another interesting verse but nothing in that verse suggest John is not going to be in heaven. Saying the least in my father's house is greater than those living in his property does not in anyway suggest they do not live in the said property. There is no where in Lu 7:28 (same with Mt 11:11) that say John is not going to heaven. He simply said the least in that Kingdom is greater than him.

You can also keep in mind that this was made about him at a time when John was still living and evidently as relating to his human life and career, what he was as a man. No human, no matter how great on earth, is equal to any of those forming Christ’s heavenly kingdom, possessing the likeness of their kingly Head. But the comparative inferiority of John’s human, earthly career, certainly would not preclude John’s becoming one of those in that heavenly kingdom. While that is so, it may well be that Jesus was actually focusing on quite a different aspect of matters, as indicated by the context, dealing with the matter of prophets. Even John’s work of preparing the way for Christ is not equal to the superior privilege of having accepted him, placing faith in, and bearing witness to, his death and resurrection as a Ransomer, etc. The JWs interpretation is heavily conditioned by circular reasoning and is simplistic, essentially ignoring the context and reality of the existing circumstances.

I want to believe that in your bible study with them, they never opened up verse like He 11:14-16 which specifically said those ancient servant of God will be in heaven as God had prepared a place for them. Or Mt 8:11 where Jesus was very specific that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would be in heaven? Or Re 19:1 which says multitudes are in heaven?

I learnt that David did not ascend to heaven with the saints despite been righteous, acts 2:34. And this was said during the time of the apostles.

Yes. David did not ascend to heaven. Note the use of the past tense, "did" not "will" (future tense) It was true when it was written that David did not ascend. But in view of He 11:14-16; Mt 8:11; Re 19:1; Re 7:9-15, these people will be in heaven with Jesus.

I learnt jesus death frees us from sin and death giving us the opposite which Adam lost and that is everlasting life on earth. Jesus taking some to rule in heaven is to bring about that paradise earth.

Jesus death gives us everlasting life, that was what Adam lost and that was what he restored.

These are what you learnt, you learnt them from JWs books, their doctrine, their beliefs. When you read the bible alone, you get a different perspective.

Here are the fact, there is nowhere in the bible where Jesus promised to make the earth into a paradise. Restoration prophecies where Judaism believes, and it was in relation to their homeland. Jesus death gives us everlasting life, that was what Adam lost and that was what he restored. In the bible, after their deliverance from Egypt, God had promised the Israelite that if they obeyed him, followed him, he was going to make them a kingdom of priest and a holy nation (Ex 19:3-6). Take note that this was a promised to be fulfilled at a future time predicated on their obedience to him.

This promise was never fulfilled as the nation of Israel (under the mosaic law) kept disobeying him. So God made plans for a new dispensation, a new covenant. This new covenant brought on many changes, no animal sacrifice, law of love, faith in Jesus leads to salvation not obedience to the mosaic law etc. How many Israelite would have been Kings and priest of God if they had been obedience and loyal? 100s of 1000s? Millions? Being a kingdom of priest and a holy nation means all members of the kingdom are priest and kings (that is where the idea Kingdom of priest comes from).

But here is an interesting twist, since the nation of Israel where not faithful to God, rejected the Christ and killed him, the priestly kingdom which came into effect with the new covenant was now on a spiritual nation of Israel, called the Israel of God. Any one from anywhere can be a part of the Kingly priesthood by virtue of their faith in Jesus. In the mosaic law covenant, none Israelite could have inheritance or share sonship, in the new covenant arrangement, non Israelite could be sons of God and share in sonly inheritance.

Jesus came to save men, bring them to God, reconcile relationship between God and men, invite many who previously were outsides into that relation. He told his disciples that in his father's house, there are many houses, he will go, prepare a place and be back to carry them. This is consistence with He 11:14-16; Mt 8:11; Re 19:1; Re 7:9-15. Nowhere did he promise to make the earth a paradise for his disciples to live in. All true Christians are sons of God.

What you learnt from Jws is a mixture of part Judaism, part Christianity. I may add, I came to see that the very reason why the majority of the Christian community have beliefs that are basically unchanged for 100s of years is because they are stated so in the bible. Reading the bible on your own, you see this things too. But Jws have beliefs that are reviewed and revised every 10 to 15 years. I came to see reason being these beliefs, on the most part are invented by people inside bethel, mostly sensational when introduced but with the passage of time, it becomes obvious they would not make sense so they get reviewed, revised, changed, abandoned.

rottennaija:
Matthew 5:3-5 New International Version
3. “Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need,+ since the Kingdom of the heavens belongs to them.
5 “Happy are the mild-tempered,+ since they will inherit the earth.+

This is what JWs think they believe. Here is the reality in simple concise way, all true Christians are conscious of their spiritual need. That is why they accepted to have faith in Jesus and his blood to cleanse their sins for salvation. Any body who believes in God, Jesus, bible, etc are conscious of their spiritual needs. The original greek word for Mt 3:3 means poor (beggar) in spirit. It shows the idea of a destitute condition where you depend on others to fill that need. In this case, an individual understands his destitute situation, in need of a higher assistance for salvation since all are sinners.

All JWs are conscious of their spiritual needs. That is why they pray, read the bible, beg for forgiveness of sins etc. Mt 5:3 says, those conscious of their spiritual needs are happy since the kingdom of the heavens belong to them. It is that simple. All baptized Christian are conscious of their spiritual needs.

Matthew 5:3-5
5 “Happy are the mild-tempered,+ since they will inherit the earth.+

I will keep this very simple. Mild tempered ones are happy because they will inherit the earth. Take note of these words, "inherit the earth" Mt 5:5, "belong to them" Mt 5:3. If I might ask you, who inherit what? Can a servant inherit what belongs to sons or daughters? No. Or in the context of Mt 5:3, can a servant claim ownership of what does not belong to them? Only sons and daughters own, inherits what, not servant or hired hands.

Here is my point. Mt 5:5 applied principally to Jesus and to his anointed brothers. (Most JWs quoting the passage are not aware of but it is there in their publications). As the preeminent mild-tempered one, it is Jesus whom God has appointed “as heir of all things”. It is to Jesus whom his father has willed to nations as “his inheritance, and the ends of the earth his possession”. (He 1:2, Ps 2:8 )

Jesus’ followers, by virtue of their faith in him and his blood, are adopted as sons of God. (Jn 1:12; 1 Jn 5:1-4; Ga 3:26) As sons, they are also heirs of God, joint heirs with Jesus (Ro 8:17). As joint heir, they share in his inheritance, including the earth, which belongs to Jehovah and which he has willed to his son (Ps 24:1; 1 Co 10:26).

So how can those who are not Christ brothers share in inheriting the earth? It is like asking, how can tenant (who are not related to the family) share in inheriting the properties? It simply is not possible, unless it has been willed to them. These are what JWs do not know. They cannot inherit the earth unless they are anointed ones, christ brothers.

Here is another interesting point. In my previous response, I had said that because of creating a false 2 class system, it has force them to exclude millions from the new covenant and Jesus mediating role. Now, it gets even more interesting. Take a survey into JWs publications, you will see that in their mention and trying to apply Mt 5:5 to those whom they say will live on earth, in each of such references, the inherit of Mt 5:5 is always enclosed in double quote. Why? Because the verse does not apply to the supposed earthly class but to Jesus and his anointed brothers, basically those going to heaven.



This another interesting verse but nothing in that verse suggest John is not going to be in heaven. Saying the least in my father's house is greater than those living in his property does not in anyway suggest they do not live in the said property. There is no where in Lu 7:28 (same with Mt 11:11) that say John is not going to heaven. He simply said the least in that Kingdom is greater than him.

You can also keep in mind that this was made about him at a time when John was still living and evidently as relating to his human life and career, what he was as a man. No human, no matter how great on earth, is equal to any of those forming Christ’s heavenly kingdom, possessing the likeness of their kingly Head. But the comparative inferiority of John’s human, earthly career, certainly would not preclude John’s becoming one of those in that heavenly kingdom. While that is so, it may well be that Jesus was actually focusing on quite a different aspect of matters, as indicated by the context, dealing with the matter of prophets. Even John’s work of preparing the way for Christ is not equal to the superior privilege of having accepted him, placing faith in, and bearing witness to, his death and resurrection as a Ransomer, etc. The JWs interpretation is heavily conditioned by circular reasoning and is simplistic, essentially ignoring the context and reality of the existing circumstances.

I want to believe that in your bible study with them, they never opened up verse like He 11:14-16 which specifically said those ancient servant of God will be in heaven as God had prepared a place for them. Or Mt 8:11 where Jesus was very specific that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would be in heaven? Or Re 19:1 which says multitudes are in heaven?



Yes. David did not ascend to heaven. Note the use of the past tense, "did" not "will" (future tense) It was true when it was written that David did not ascend. But in view of He 11:14-16; Mt 8:11; Re 19:1; Re 7:9-15, these people will be in heaven with Jesus.



These are what you learnt, you learnt them from JWs books, their doctrine, their beliefs. When you read the bible alone, you get a different perspective.

Here are the fact, there is nowhere in the bible where Jesus promised to make the earth into a paradise. Restoration prophecies where Judaism believes, and it was in relation to their homeland. Jesus death gives us everlasting life, that was what Adam lost and that was what he restored. In the bible, after their deliverance from Egypt, God had promised the Israelite that if they obeyed him, followed him, he was going to make them a kingdom of priest and a holy nation (Ex 19:3-6). Take note that this was a promised to be fulfilled at a future time predicated on their obedience to him.

This promise was never fulfilled as the nation of Israel (under the mosaic law) kept disobeying him. So God made plans for a new dispensation, a new covenant. This new covenant brought on many changes, no animal sacrifice, law of love, faith in Jesus leads to salvation not obedience to the mosaic law etc. How many Israelite would have been Kings and priest of God if they had been obedience and loyal? 100s of 1000s? Millions? Being a kingdom of priest and a holy nation means all members of the kingdom are priest and kings (that is where the idea Kingdom of priest comes from).

But here is an interesting twist, since the nation of Israel where not faithful to God, rejected the Christ and killed him, the priestly kingdom which came into effect with the new covenant was now on a spiritual nation of Israel, called the Israel of God. Any one from anywhere can be a part of the Kingly priesthood by virtue of their faith in Jesus. In the mosaic law covenant, none Israelite could have inheritance or share sonship, in the new covenant arrangement, non Israelite could be sons of God and share in sonly inheritance.

Jesus came to save men, bring them to God, reconcile relationship between God and men, invite many who previously were outsides into that relation. He told his disciples that in his father's house, there are many houses, he will go, prepare a place and be back to carry them. This is consistence with He 11:14-16; Mt 8:11; Re 19:1; Re 7:9-15. Nowhere did he promise to make the earth a paradise for his disciples to live in. All true Christians are sons of God.

What you learnt from Jws is a mixture of part Judaism, part Christianity. I may add, I came to see that the very reason why the majority of the Christian community have beliefs that are basically unchanged for 100s of years is because they are stated so in the bible. Reading the bible on your own, you see this things too. But Jws have beliefs that are reviewed and revised every 10 to 15 years. I came to see reason being these beliefs, on the most part are invented by people inside bethel, mostly sensational when introduced but with the passage of time, it becomes obvious they would not make sense so they get reviewed, revised, changed, abandoned.

The Bros says Psalms 37:29, Rev 1:1. 21:1-5 and 2 Peter 3:13, Matthew 6:9-10 is not true.
Na fable for him Bible

rottennaija:
Matthew 5:3-5 New International Version
3. “Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need,+ since the Kingdom of the heavens belongs to them.
5 “Happy are the mild-tempered,+ since they will inherit the earth.+

This is what JWs think they believe. Here is the reality in simple concise way, all true Christians are conscious of their spiritual need. That is why they accepted to have faith in Jesus and his blood to cleanse their sins for salvation. Any body who believes in God, Jesus, bible, etc are conscious of their spiritual needs. The original greek word for Mt 3:3 means poor (beggar) in spirit. It shows the idea of a destitute condition where you depend on others to fill that need. In this case, an individual understands his destitute situation, in need of a higher assistance for salvation since all are sinners.

All JWs are conscious of their spiritual needs. That is why they pray, read the bible, beg for forgiveness of sins etc. Mt 5:3 says, those conscious of their spiritual needs are happy since the kingdom of the heavens belong to them. It is that simple. All baptized Christian are conscious of their spiritual needs.

Matthew 5:3-5
5 “Happy are the mild-tempered,+ since they will inherit the earth.+

I will keep this very simple. Mild tempered ones are happy because they will inherit the earth. Take note of these words, "inherit the earth" Mt 5:5, "belong to them" Mt 5:3. If I might ask you, who inherit what? Can a servant inherit what belongs to sons or daughters? No. Or in the context of Mt 5:3, can a servant claim ownership of what does not belong to them? Only sons and daughters own, inherits what, not servant or hired hands.

Here is my point. Mt 5:5 applied principally to Jesus and to his anointed brothers. (Most JWs quoting the passage are not aware of but it is there in their publications). As the preeminent mild-tempered one, it is Jesus whom God has appointed “as heir of all things”. It is to Jesus whom his father has willed to nations as “his inheritance, and the ends of the earth his possession”. (He 1:2, Ps 2:8 )

Jesus’ followers, by virtue of their faith in him and his blood, are adopted as sons of God. (Jn 1:12; 1 Jn 5:1-4; Ga 3:26) As sons, they are also heirs of God, joint heirs with Jesus (Ro 8:17). As joint heir, they share in his inheritance, including the earth, which belongs to Jehovah and which he has willed to his son (Ps 24:1; 1 Co 10:26).

So how can those who are not Christ brothers share in inheriting the earth? It is like asking, how can tenant (who are not related to the family) share in inheriting the properties? It simply is not possible, unless it has been willed to them. These are what JWs do not know. They cannot inherit the earth unless they are anointed ones, christ brothers.

Here is another interesting point. In my previous response, I had said that because of creating a false 2 class system, it has force them to exclude millions from the new covenant and Jesus mediating role. Now, it gets even more interesting. Take a survey into JWs publications, you will see that in their mention and trying to apply Mt 5:5 to those whom they say will live on earth, in each of such references, the inherit of Mt 5:5 is always enclosed in double quote. Why? Because the verse does not apply to the supposed earthly class but to Jesus and his anointed brothers, basically those going to heaven.



This another interesting verse but nothing in that verse suggest John is not going to be in heaven. Saying the least in my father's house is greater than those living in his property does not in anyway suggest they do not live in the said property. There is no where in Lu 7:28 (same with Mt 11:11) that say John is not going to heaven. He simply said the least in that Kingdom is greater than him.

You can also keep in mind that this was made about him at a time when John was still living and evidently as relating to his human life and career, what he was as a man. No human, no matter how great on earth, is equal to any of those forming Christ’s heavenly kingdom, possessing the likeness of their kingly Head. But the comparative inferiority of John’s human, earthly career, certainly would not preclude John’s becoming one of those in that heavenly kingdom. While that is so, it may well be that Jesus was actually focusing on quite a different aspect of matters, as indicated by the context, dealing with the matter of prophets. Even John’s work of preparing the way for Christ is not equal to the superior privilege of having accepted him, placing faith in, and bearing witness to, his death and resurrection as a Ransomer, etc. The JWs interpretation is heavily conditioned by circular reasoning and is simplistic, essentially ignoring the context and reality of the existing circumstances.

I want to believe that in your bible study with them, they never opened up verse like He 11:14-16 which specifically said those ancient servant of God will be in heaven as God had prepared a place for them. Or Mt 8:11 where Jesus was very specific that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would be in heaven? Or Re 19:1 which says multitudes are in heaven?



Yes. David did not ascend to heaven. Note the use of the past tense, "did" not "will" (future tense) It was true when it was written that David did not ascend. But in view of He 11:14-16; Mt 8:11; Re 19:1; Re 7:9-15, these people will be in heaven with Jesus.



These are what you learnt, you learnt them from JWs books, their doctrine, their beliefs. When you read the bible alone, you get a different perspective.

Here are the fact, there is nowhere in the bible where Jesus promised to make the earth into a paradise. Restoration prophecies where Judaism believes, and it was in relation to their homeland. Jesus death gives us everlasting life, that was what Adam lost and that was what he restored. In the bible, after their deliverance from Egypt, God had promised the Israelite that if they obeyed him, followed him, he was going to make them a kingdom of priest and a holy nation (Ex 19:3-6). Take note that this was a promised to be fulfilled at a future time predicated on their obedience to him.

This promise was never fulfilled as the nation of Israel (under the mosaic law) kept disobeying him. So God made plans for a new dispensation, a new covenant. This new covenant brought on many changes, no animal sacrifice, law of love, faith in Jesus leads to salvation not obedience to the mosaic law etc. How many Israelite would have been Kings and priest of God if they had been obedience and loyal? 100s of 1000s? Millions? Being a kingdom of priest and a holy nation means all members of the kingdom are priest and kings (that is where the idea Kingdom of priest comes from).

But here is an interesting twist, since the nation of Israel where not faithful to God, rejected the Christ and killed him, the priestly kingdom which came into effect with the new covenant was now on a spiritual nation of Israel, called the Israel of God. Any one from anywhere can be a part of the Kingly priesthood by virtue of their faith in Jesus. In the mosaic law covenant, none Israelite could have inheritance or share sonship, in the new covenant arrangement, non Israelite could be sons of God and share in sonly inheritance.

Jesus came to save men, bring them to God, reconcile relationship between God and men, invite many who previously were outsides into that relation. He told his disciples that in his father's house, there are many houses, he will go, prepare a place and be back to carry them. This is consistence with He 11:14-16; Mt 8:11; Re 19:1; Re 7:9-15. Nowhere did he promise to make the earth a paradise for his disciples to live in. All true Christians are sons of God.

What you learnt from Jws is a mixture of part Judaism, part Christianity. I may add, I came to see that the very reason why the majority of the Christian community have beliefs that are basically unchanged for 100s of years is because they are stated so in the bible. Reading the bible on your own, you see this things too. But Jws have beliefs that are reviewed and revised every 10 to 15 years. I came to see reason being these beliefs, on the most part are invented by people inside bethel, mostly sensational when introduced but with the passage of time, it becomes obvious they would not make sense so they get reviewed, revised, changed, abandoned.

Thanks for the feedback.

So I read all your quoted scriptures, and I have a question for you. Jesus christ said unless one becomes born again he cannot inherit the kingdom of God, John 3:3.
So were David, abraham etc born again?

I learnt from my study that to be born again, God's spirit will have to choose you, you cant choose yourself, Roman's 8:16.

And to cement that calling all those who are born again of the spirit must eat the holy communion, without that you havent sealed the calling. Did David, abraham, John the Baptist do any of this?

So they arent born again according to the word, so how then do they go to heaven. Is there a back door?

As for the nation of kings and priest. I believe that has been fulfilled to the Jews firstly, cause they have kings and tribes of priests. It's just like saying God promised to give them a land flowing with milk and honey, was that fulfilled?

Did the jews literally have their land pouring with milk and honey everywhere? No but with what I know God gave them all they needed. They never lacked as long as they were on his side. Same with the nation of priests and kings. He didnt say he will make them all kings and priests but their nation of priests and kings, the ALL absent and they were a nation of kings and priests.

As for what man lost, man lost perfect life on earth. It makes logical sense that that was what will be regained and not that in heaven. Unless the ransom doesnt really add up. If God wanted us as Angel's he should just have made us so, everybody going to heaven to live eternally doesnt add up with what Adam lost.


And a great multitude in heaven, I know the Angel's make a great multitude already, add that with those going to heaven and your large number is complete.

Whenever i listen to a JW comment i always feel that touch of competency in their handling God's word aright.

With the way you're commenting you're confusing me the more unless you're another Maximus because i completed my studied with JWs and started dodging the preaching aspect due to carrying of bags from house to house.
But even the elders in any congregation i go often ask me again "are you sure you're yet to baptise?" a circuit overseer one called me "the unbaptized elder"
My brother, with what i'm seeing so far your name is safe in JEHOVAH'S memory book {Malachi 3:16} may His underserved kindness keep your feet and make you firm on the path of righteousness.
I'm off the thread my brother,
See you in PARADISE!

needanswer:
Thanks for the feedback.

So I read all your quoted scriptures, and I have a question for you. Jesus christ said unless one becomes born again he cannot inherit the kingdom of God, John 3:3.
So were David, abraham etc born again?

I learnt from my study that to be born again, God's spirit will have to choice you, you cant choice yourself, Roman's 8:16.

And to cement that calling all those who are born again of the spirit must eat the holy communion, without that you havent sealed the calling. Did David, abraham, John the Baptist do any of this?

So they arent born again according to the word, so how then do they go to heaven. Is there a back door?

As for the nation of kings and priest. I believe that has been fulfilled to the Jews firstly, cause they have kings and tribes of priests. It's just like saying God promised to give them a land flowing with milk and honey, was that fulfilled?

Did the jews literally have their land pouring with milk and honey everywhere? No but with what I know God gave them all they needed. They never lacked as long as they were on his side. Same with the nation of priests and kings. He didnt say he will make them all kings and priests but their nation of priests and kings, the ALL absent and they were a nation of kings and priests.

As for what man lost, man lost perfect life on earth. It makes logical sense that that was what will be regained and not that in heaven. Unless the ransom doesnt really add up. If God wanted us as Angel's he should just have made us so, everybody going to heaven to live eternally doesnt add up with what Adam lost.


And a great multitude in heaven, I know the Angel's make a great multitude already, add that with those going to heaven and your large number is complete.

MaxInDHouse:
Whenever i listen to a JW comment i always feel that touch of competency in their handling God's word aright.

With the way you're commenting you're confusing me the more unless you're another Maximus because i completed my studied with JWs and started dodging the preaching aspect due to carrying of bags from house to house.
But even the elders in any congregation i go often ask me again "are you sure you're yet to baptise?" a circuit overseer one called me "the unbaptized elder"
My brother, with what i'm seeing so far you're saved in JEHOVAH'S memory book, may His underserved kindness keep your feet and make you firm on the path of righteousness.
I'm off the thread my brother,
See you in PARADISE!

this made me laugh so hard Max. I ask so many questions, my questions can be annoying.

My moniker says it all. That's who I am and that is why I know a little too much, that's also why I am even asking the OP the questions I am, to know if I missed something, but it's good to learn I am on track.

We will see ourselves in paradise, Jah will help me walk the walk and not just me talking .

needanswer:
Hello, so I have this elderly JW couple studying with me for some months now, do you think they are a bad idea? If they are what religion do you associate with currently?

Hello, so I have this elderly JW couple studying with me for some months now, do you think they are a bad idea?

Since when has someone studying the scripture with another fellow become a bad idea?


If they are what religion do you associate with currently

What religion is pure and undefiled from God's standpoint based on what you have studied so far from the elderly people you have been studying with?

The two questions above have answers embedded in them. I only hope your knowledge and study of the scriptures as stated here in your post can pick them out.

Kobojunkiee:
But I don't deny any part of the Bible, not even what Paul wrote in his letter to Timothy. You are the one who assumes that I do.

I simply see it for what it is ...something religion has blinded those of you who subscribe to it and its many doctrines, to.

Jesus Christ warned you against the doctrines and traditions of men, what He declared were lies, that had the consequences of drawing those who imbibe and follow after them away from God and His Truth. Your religions are built in exactly those -doctrines and traditions of men- and as Jesus Christ said, they lead away, not towards God.

You have discussed at length with him. I don't think he really understand what point you are trying to make, even what the extrabiblical mean?