nyiamfrank:
Mr. Reno, can you link the fruitfulness of a tree to human attributes?
Is the pastor not bearing children?

Church growth? Financially or in population?

When some people left Jesus as he was preaching, did he drag them back? He even turned to the disciples and asked why they remained with him!

Winners must not mention money in that letter. Be fair, man.

. Reno Omokri I know you're defending Winners church because the owner of the church is a friend to you paymaster Goodluck Ebele Jonathan. Reno Omokri Jesus Christ did not say by fire by force we much follow him or accept his doctrine, it's by choice. In the book of Mathew chapter 10 verse 12- 14 And when ye come into an house, salute it. 13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy,let your peace return to you. 14 And whoseever shall not receive you,nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Reno knewv that Oyedepo sacked those pastors because of low income of revenue from these affected church branches. Why do we like deceiving ourselves in this country for God sake? Oyedepo did not sacked those pastors because they did not win souls but he sacked them because they did not generate more money has expected. Do you think Oyedepo loves Jesus to that extent? If truly he loves Jesus Christ not the money he wouldn't sack those pastors. Salvation is not by fire by force. Some Catholic Church parishes don't have more than 50 members in some parishes in rural areas still Rev Father will still go there to preach the words of God to them during the service period. Church supposed not to be about population. Pentecostal churches are private business. You can never hear this rubbish from Orthodox churches. Nigeria's Pentecostal have done bad to the body of Christ than good. All what is in the brain of these so called church owners is tithes and offerings. Jesus is Lord.

Reno is very wrong on this. Church Growth and money goes together. Even if the church was not growing and good income was coming, he will not sack the Pastors.

When a Pastor is not doing well, you make effort to retrain him. Or put him under a Pastor who is doing well to learn. You can only sack him if he is unwilling to learn.

It is completely heartless to sack anyone at this difficult moment in this country. Bishop Oyedepo has not displayed any empathy. How does he expect the family to feed. He missed it on this.

ImaIma1:


But when he reacts to a topic and it appeals to you, you won't wonder if he's bored.

you don't get ma point

nyiamfrank:
Mr. Reno, can you link the fruitfulness of a tree to human attributes?
Is the pastor not bearing children?

Church growth? Financially or in population?

When some people left Jesus as he was preaching, did he drag them back? He even turned to the disciples and asked why they remained with him!

Winners must not mention money in that letter. Be fair, man.

I will never Defend living faith for personal reasons. I'm not their fan.
But in this case, many speaking up against them is only speaking against Christianity in general.
The later did mention " Growth ", it's only you people that is giving monetary interpretation to it. That's judgement by assumption which is wrong.
What would you do as a person, if you have a church of 300 members, and you placed a pastor over them, and after sometime, you audit(sorry for the choice of word) and then find out you have just 100 or less members left, no good explanations like deaths of members, relocation etc given to justify the decline or stagnancy. What will you do? What action will you take? Even in the secular world, is it not common sense to change the management of a company if they are not performing well?
Well, I'm happy for the poor growth shaa! It means Revival is truly taking place and holiness gaining weight, because the doctrines of these Pentecostal churches esp living fai5h and Christ embassy is taking many to hell.

I wouldn't be surprised to see that majority of the comments against Winners'Chapel will be by 'so-called' Christians.

Christians of this age are so full of **it.

You will never see any post on nairaland or any social media where Moslems openly criticize their imams and alfas but when it comes to the church, Christians are quick to bash the pastors and the church.

It's just that my faith is not in men but God, this sort of thing can trigger a rethink of one's faith and commitment to the Church.

Christians should know that no one is perfect, even that church leader. So pray for them instead of castigating them and going against the Church of Jesus Christ.

This matter is too high for me. I'd rather keep my mouth shut.

#Shalom

Wiseandtrue:
[b] I wasn't going to comment on this topic until Oyedepo himself address this issue!

But Reno, got this all wrong!

You guys have become fishers of money and not fishers of men chai! God must be a patient God oooo!

Be honest. Check your mind. Anyone observant can tell you aren't a fan of Winners or Bishop Oyedepo.

Now if the growth you are talking about is the physical growth:

Did the apostles win souls for Christ when He was with them I mean they were always going about with Jesus

Let's discuss scriptures. Someone rightly answered you that Jesus called his disciples to make them fishers of men. That was clear enough.

The three and half years you are speaking about here was the time he spent training them. Even at this moment, he still sent them out to preach(i.e Matt 10).

But note that after Jesus died and ressuurrected, He formally gave them what we call the great commission (Mark 16:15-16, Acts 1:. The account of Matthew makes it even clearer:

Matthew 28:19-20
[19]Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
[20]Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The original expression "teach all nations" implies discipling all nations... It is the responsibility of the church. To disciple people properly is to grow and expand.

Isn't this what we see the Apostles do? They literally carried out Jesus' assignment. THEY GREW CONSTANTLY!

Acts 2:41
[41]Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Acts 2:46-47
[46]And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
[47]Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Acts 5:14
[14]And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)

Acts 6:1
[1]And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied...

Acts 6:7
[7]And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly...

I can give you several more instances in scriptures. The responsibility Jesus gave is clear. He trained his disciples for it. And the disciples ran with it!

And if the monetary aspect, many of the disciples STOPPED working when they met Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ has been taking care of every of their needs! Go and read Matthew 4:18–22, Mark 3:16-20 and Luke 5:1–11 , John 1:35–51!

So if BISHOP Oyedepo is really like Christ and is doing the work of Jesus Christ why can't he take care of his pastors need Or is God Almighty not a great provider againIs Oyedepo now God Stop making mockery of God's name all in the name of looking for money!

You shifted the goal post totally. The first three and half years that Jesus spent with His disciples was a training period. He was of course going to send them into the mission field soon!

In Acts of the Apostles, it wasn't Jesus multiplying bread and fish to feed them. It was the church they labored over caring for their needs.

BTW, Winners did not sack those pastors because of money. How ridiculous is it for people to sharply believe that!

The letter clearly indicated that the sack bordered on church growth. Church growth it stated. It is only fair to not bear false witness against another person. If you have no proof of an accusation, don't jump into conclusion. It's unfair to do that!

The church did not mention money. The letter they wrote did not mention money. Where is the money narrative coming from? A bearer of false witness would not bother to investigate this. He'll be quick to condemn.

No Christian would be quick to condemn another human being, talk more a church.

Modified:

Did you read at all

Did Oyedepo ordained these men without hearing from God

God cannot contradict Himself!

Who is Oyedepo to sack those who wish to serve God

Did Jesus hear from God before choosing Judas, a man who betrayed Him and commited suicide?

Did Apostle Paul hear from God before choosing Alexander who betrayed him (2 Timothy 4:14)? or before relating with Demas who forsook him (2Timothy 4:10)?

Man has a free will. God doesn't compel men to hear and obey him! God can call a man and the man chooses not to do what God called him to do. That's normal. It doesn't mean God made a mistake.

A man of God can hear from God to ordain a person into ministry. But the person can choose to either carry out that ministry or not. Part of the instruction to Timothy was that he should work towards making full proof of his ministry.

2 Timothy 4:5
[5]But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

So, a man can choose to either do ministry or not. It doesn't mean God didn't call him as a pastor or that the person who ordained him didn't ordain him rightly. It just means the man has a free will to make a full proof of his calling.

If he doesn't, Jesus express what he'll do in clear terms:

John 15:2
[2] Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

This is what Jesus would do. This is what Winners did.

They didn't stop them from serving God. They only removed them as pastors of Winners church. They can serve God as soul winners or just regular church leaders.

Even when the apostles were trying to stop those worshipping God simply because they are not part of them

Jesus Christ said "leave them! If they are not against us, they are with us!

Lol. That portion is unrelated. Those Jesus were referring to there are people who believe in Jesus and were validly using His name. The disciples thought they only had the authority to use the name of Jesus. That's why Jesus said that.

It's unrelated to what we're discussing now!

How do you sack a pastor who is not stealing, going diabolical As a pastor, was he not prayerful Is he found wanted as a leader at home

Common!

I already addressed this in details... Let me post that scripture verse again

John 15:2
[2] Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

You get? Praise God!

thesicilian:
But should "church growth" only be measured by the number of new comers in the church? If a church has 20 members and they're all growing spirituality through the teachings and guidance of the pastor, isn't that worthy of commendation as well?

those people don't care about spiritual growth, bro. All what they care about is having the largest worship auditorium and highest number of followers. You want your pastors to bring in more members to the church, the question is; from where? From another church I guess. I want to believe no man has power over another's man heart, you can't force people to believe in Jesus or come to your church. Even Jesus warned his disciples in Luke 10:5-6, same way Apostle Paul explained in 1corinth 3:6
"I planted the seed in your hearts, and Apollos watered it, but it was God who made it grow."

MT:


Nice submission. Maybe all this complexity would have been resolved if Oyedepo has not sat on church money from day 1. Maybe if Oyedepo has an identifiable business from the day he founded the church and not earning salary from the church but just preach and go to his regular job, maybe it would have been better.

So in a way we both align in our perspective that this is a business gone wrong between the pastor and Oyedepo.

Exactly...so if oyedepo is so hardworking that he could build his business that much, I don't see any reason why he should tolerate any other lazy employee. Therefore, oyedepo didn't do anything wrong in sacking an unproductive employee.. case closed

Innoxxacs:
what happens when people have refused to read and understand their bibles

I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase
-1cor 3:6
God Is responsible for growth and “he makes it beautiful in his time” sacking a pastor because of ‘church growth’ only points to one thing...

I don’t like to drag religion but 99% are fakes

When you plant and water, God makes it grow.

What if you don't plant or water?

Let's learn to think critically before jumping into judgement.

pafra:


Your unit asking you for contributions 1500.
Is not a must you be in the department.

It was not a contribution. It was for a vest I was already given to enable me move around the church without being harassed by the security. When I was given the vest, I was not informed that I would have to pay. Later they started harrasing me that I owe the church N1,500.

Go back and tell your pastor. Let's apply for funds for the children church.

This incident happened about 8 years ago. I have never gone back to the church since. My still attends though.

I repeat no where in winners the local assembly undertakes a major project. Met your LCC. IT is a law the consequences is the pastor will be sacked

Maybe the law came in effect recently. In those days of "Double Double" they were collecting donations for everything - both minor and major. There was even a crisis when they told people to start paying N100 for the free transportation for Sunday services. Most people in my estate got angry and stopped attending winners then. The main pastor had to come to the estate to apologize to each member before some returned to the church.

The Local assembly must get an approval from the head quarters. Approval comes with release of funds.

As I said. This was my experience about 8 years ago. I would not know if things have changed.

Do you do more than one offering in a service apart from Thanksgiving offering once in a month?

This donation for the children church, is it offering done separately from the main offering.?

We did the main offering every sunday, then after that there was the children's church building offering. In addition they often asked people to donate building materials like cement, roofing sheets, etc.

Which branch of winners?

Ikorodu branch.

emmyileri:

You are wrong brother. Spiritual aspect of life cannot be compared to the worldly way of doing things. This are men who are dedicated to serve God not oyedepo or winners. Winners is just a platform that God is using them. Let God be the judge 1 Corinthians 312-13NIV:If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13
NIV:their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.....these people didn't commit adultery or fornication.

How you guys come to equate call for accountability is worldly to me is baffling when the bible is full evidences that shows God demands accountability from us.
I have refused to go into the critique of Pastors and I will resist every attempt to do that. Let's just take it that he didn't achieve the church growth target and he was released/sacked. He should take his disappointment and find the brighter side of life.

Kondomatic:
You people supporting the church are hypocritical elements, starting with Reno.

Don't pretend like you don't know what is going on, and if truly you don't then ask questions instead.


Ask yourself why pastors (especially RCCG) open churches in every street.... It's not to win souls for God, it's to generate revenue for church.

Ask yourself why a Christian will come to preach to you and invite you to their own church even though you made it clear that you're already a Christian and belongs to a church.
It is to generate revenue for the church.

Now on this particular issue, I am using RCCG as a reference because that's where I have first hand experience. Pastors are given targets just like marketers but the different is that target is directly money not members.... This is why they hit on paying tithe, sowing seed bla bla bla.

Some unfortunate Pastors use their own personal money to augment what was raised in the church and send to the state head quarters. Sue me and I will come with evidence.

Until we start being honest to ourselves and tell these CEO of churches that Christ is disappointed in them, things will never get better in Christiandom.

Look around you, why does it seem like Satan is winning every battle? Because Christians have deviated and lost their power.

Stop defending rubbish, those pastors were sacked because they're not remitting the required amount.

Bro I still don't see rubbish in demanding accountability. I am a Christian, I will certainly not bring Church to ridicule on the Social media and allow those who are against the faith to have benefit of insulting the church again especially in this instance

pafra:


Money don't fall form from haven the the soul bring the money.

Should we leave the souls because they bring the money?
Or we forget the money because the soul bring the money?

Zeph: 1:17 : my city through prosperity will be spread abroad.

God don't through money from heaven.

It seems you like to ramble

If the main concern for the Church is the winning of souls and not money, why bother at all whether they the souls bring or don't bring money?

Why not focus on the job God has called you to do and let him reward you with prosperity

Or are you God's Chief accountant to take account of his finances ?

MemoriesAndMe:

How does a church measure performance by number of "souls in the Kingdom of God" a pastor brings? What technique is used to dig into the souls to know their contents? So if every member of their churches speak in tongues but do not donate tithes and offerings, the pastors won't be fired?
Bro, thier performance yardstick is revenue, nothing else.

If the population of Christians In winners chapel are real Christians , I’m sure Nigeria would be a great place to live in.

Besides, church is seen at every corner,
Is he expecting his managers to go and drag out people from where they are already worshiping to join them.
If it wasn’t about money, they wouldn’t be bothered how many people they have brought to church but they should be bothered about how many people that have given their lives to Christ., not minding where the person is worshiping.

We worship one God.

They should stop building churches everywhere, it’s not necessary.

Lifestone:

How you guys come to equate call for accountability is worldly to me is baffling when the bible is full evidences that shows God demands accountability from us.
I have refused to go into the critique of Pastors and I will resist every attempt to do that. Let's just take it that he didn't achieve the church growth target and he was released/sacked. He should take his disappointment and find the brighter side of life.

Let ask you this question; would Jesus drive any disciple from his ministry because because they did not meet his growth target? I had thought Christianity means Christ Like and not Oyedepo Like

ijaw1stson:
you don't get ma point

I get your point and I have wondered the same thing. He reacts to every major news here.

Satan the Devil keeps deceiving millions through false religion. The wild beast is warming up for you all, It won't be long. One morning like the usual ones boom! Devastation and tribulations await.

#Gullible followers.

helpee:
You are very correct. Only that Christ did not pay anybody to look for the lost sheep. This pastor don't need oyedepo to save a soul for Christ. You don't expect another man to pay you for doing God's work. He was sacked from collecting salary...not sacked from working for God. If money is not his motivation, I can't see any issue here. He should continue with that one genuine worshipper for God and God will bless him . Oyedepo has done nothing wrong here

Oyedepo the businessman has done nothing wrong.

And Oyedepo the businessman is the one I am familiar with.

The only problem I have with him is twisting the Scriptures to fit his business plans.

BluntTheApostle:


Oyedepo the businessman has done nothing wrong.

And Oyedepo the businessman is the one I am familiar with.

The only problem I have with him is twisting the Scriptures to fit his business plans.

All you need to do is to start your own church based on untwisted scripture and then win back the souls of the lost from the businessman. That will serve Christianity more than regular attack on his millions of followers. As a blunt apostle, you need to step up your game or remove apostle from your name.

nyiamfrank:
Reno Omokri wrote on his Facebook page


https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=310019004236878&id=111647580740689

We have to know the index or rather the KPI that was given to the pastor because the letter says church growth index.

helpee:
All you need to do is to start your own church based on untwisted scripture and then win back the souls of the lost from the businessman. That will serve Christianity more than regular attack on his millions of followers. As a blunt apostle, you need to step up your game or remove apostle from your name.

This is not a game.

We should be honest, .....we should know the church in Nigeria today needs to repent and go back to our Bethel and Kingdom basics,.... we've got our KPIs (Key Performance Indicators) before Christ all wrong.

Enemies without everywhere... character failures within all over..... How long, O Lord our God?

It's very saddening to read this kind of news in public spaces. How did we come to this?

seunayantokun:
We should be honest, .....we should know the church in Nigeria today needs to repent and go back to our Bethel and Kingdom basics,.... we've got our KPIs (Key Performance Indicators) before Christ all wrong.

Enemies without everywhere... character failures within all over..... How long, O Lord our God?

It's very saddening to read this kind of news in public spaces. How did we come to this?

The Church is long overdue for a Revival.

Like Lieutenant Waters (Bruce Willis) said in Tears of the Sun "God already left Africa"

BluntTheApostle:


The Church is long overdue for a Revival.

Like Lieutenant Waters (Bruce Willis) said in Tears of the Sun "God already left Africa"

The wolves and foxes eating us up have seen that the power of His Presence has been largely withdrawn.

But I know Him: He will turn to us if we genuinely turn to Him.

triplechoice:


It seems you like to ramble

If the main concern for the Church is the winning of souls and not money, why bother at all whether they the souls bring or don't bring money?

Why not focus on the job God has called you to do and let him reward you with prosperity

Or are you God's Chief accountant to take account of his finances ?

You keep calling "ramble" new found word?
You asked a question, I gave you an answer.

Will the reward of prosperity fall from God in heaven? Mr ramble

Angeles don't keep finances human keep finance. Do God have chief account? I am just human. May be you should tell me how

advanceDNA:


I don’t think this is about money..

In winners, the main duty of resident pastor is church growth i.e in numbers of people...

the fact is...no pastor can force people to give...Increase in number of people doesn’t necessarily translate to increase in money...

For example...if number of women( mothers are on the increase in a particular month. Automatically that’s double or triple because mothers will come with kids... but that won’t mean increase in offering or tithe...as children don’t give...

A pastor can’t drag rich people to church or force them to give so really he has no control over increase in money....

My opinion shaa

You are on point bro. The so called sacked pastors are mischievous. I wonder if they have the spirit of God in them. The church growth agenda is a mandate and they know it. The drive has been there since 2015.

BluntTheApostle:


The Church is long overdue for a Revival.

Like Lieutenant Waters (Bruce Willis) said in Tears of the Sun "God already left Africa"

Yes o . He has relocated to America to start gay Churches.

MT:


Men don't win soul, it is God that does that. Your own is to preach and leave.

When is church growth measured by crowd. Even angels rejoice in heaven over just ONE soul that gives his life to christ on earth.

There is no way you will take up evangelism as a real business that God will not give you soul, the vines is ripe.

You don't just preach and go like that. U pray for utterance, direction, courage, energy etc before you can change people. With the kind of world we live now you need take it up as business and not just sit somewhere and they call you pastor whereas your congregation is reducing every Sunday

wirinet:

It was not a contribution. It was for a vest I was already given to enable me move around the church without being harassed by the security. When I was given the vest, I was not informed that I would have to pay. Later they started harrasing me that I owe the church N1,500.


This incident happened about 8 years ago. I have never gone back to the church since. My still attends though.


Maybe the law came in effect recently. In those days of "Double Double" they were collecting donations for everything - both minor and major. There was even a crisis when they told people to start paying N100 for the free transportation for Sunday services. Most people in my estate got angry and stopped attending winners then. The main pastor had to come to the estate to apologize to each member before some returned to the church.


As I said. This was my experience about 8 years ago. I would not know if things have changed.


We did the main offering every sunday, then after that there was the children's church building offering. In addition they often asked people to donate building materials like cement, roofing sheets, etc.



Ikorodu branch.

Thanks bro for your reply. I appreciate

Humanoid01:

You win souls to GOD, not to YOUR LOCAL CHURCH. Evangelism is not an exercise to bring people to your local church, it is the act of reaching out to people with the gospel of Christ so that they can be saved. They don't need to attend your local church to grow, there are other churches where they can do that.

This is what I've been looking for in all the comments, it should be pinned on top of all threads about this sack brouhaha...

You win souls to God, not to your local Church period!

Thank you brother

Hmmmm, does he know what he takes to bear fruits, he should know bearing fruits is not by our own power but by the holy spirit.

Wetin Ekaette no go see for Afang soup