Abagworo:
Ogene is Nri, Anambra State. The Nri crowns both Oba Bini and Atta Idah

Please provide sources and evidence

SlyDev:
Earliest Yoruba lived in the middle belt with nupe and others. Tao have trashed this issue already

Earliest Niger Congo people lived at the Niger Benue Confluence so that includes igbo, Bini, Ijaw all of them their origin is there.

Abohboy:


I also read that terracotta in Ife has cross symbols but there's no evidence for this please kindly provide images and it still doesn't make sense that it took over a year to go from Benin City To Ife a time of 5 months would make more sense even if they're moving slowly in any case I read a journal on Jstor and it says ambassadors normally wer egiven cat whisker markings after visiting the Oghane and terracotta like this has on;y been sighted once in Ife meanwhile in Nupe and igala land it is used and seen a lot more i'm not disputing that it's not the Ooni but I just want to look at every single possibility

It's Ogane not Oghane. This small details matters.

There are numerous Benin artworks depicting messagers with whiskers wearing crosses around their neck.

I haven't seen similar Ife artworks depicting messagers with whiskers wearing crosses.

The Benin artifacts depicting messagers with whiskers wearing crosses actually goes against the narrative in the story.

The Benin artworks are obviously not depicting Benin messagers because Benin people didn't have whiskers.

The Benin artworks depicting messagers with whiskers are depicting messagers who are not from Benin but from somewhere outside Benin, possibly Igala, Nupe or somewhere else.

The story says Benin messagers are sent to the east Ogane, the messager is gifted a cross, the Benin artworks says the opposite, it's the foreign messagers that came to Benin that have crosses around their necks.

I can't upload any images now. But simply Google Benin artworks with messagers wearing crosses and compare them to Ife.

PS: Benin depicted themselves and others they encountered including the Europeans in their artworks in remarkable details. Messagers with whiskers that are wearing crosses depicted in Benin artworks were not Benin messagers.

Abohboy:


Earliest Niger Congo people lived at the Niger Benue Confluence so that includes igbo, Bini, Ijaw all of them their origin is there.

I'm talking about 18 century, the real Yoruba were still around middle belt.

SlyDev:


I'm talking about 18 century, the real Yoruba were still around middle belt.

The story was told in the 15th century not 18th century. Typical Ife artworks didn't depict the messagers seen in Benin artworks with whiskers and wearing crosses around their neck.

The Ogane story told by the Benin ambassador to the European in 1485 could have been an allegory of the spiritual journey that every new Oba of Benin took.

The bible is filled with such allegories. The story of Job is one of such. I wouldn't be surprised if most Nigerians literally believe the story of job as an event that happened.

samuk:
The Ogane story told by the Benin ambassador to the European in 1485 could have been an allegory of the spiritual journey that every new Oba of Benin took.

The bible is filled with such allegories. The story of Job is one of such. I wouldn't be surprised if most Nigerians literally believe the story of job as an event that happened.

That's exactly what I proposed but it seems we will never truly know due to the lack of written documents by Africans and the dying out of traditional culture and history

@samuk. @abohboy

Feell free to look at other possibilities but be realistic.

There are two things to note here as to why it is the Ooni

1. Who is ogane. "ogane" is obviously a Portuguese corruption of the name of a ruler given to João Afonso d'Aveiro by the Binis
The question now is what ruler in Bini language is called something similar to "ogane"?
We know of "Oghene" which only the Ooni is called so.. Infact "Oghene" as I've said before is Bini corruption of "Oghone" which is a SEY variation of "Ooni"

What other ruler do we know the Binis call something similar to "ogane"??

2. The Ogane mentioned by João Afonso d'Aveiro, is someone who the Oba of Benin had reason to hold in high esteem and one who he seeks blessings from before ascending the throne.
Who apart from the Ooni would have enjoyed such patronage from the Oba of Benin? especially in the late 15th century, a period when Benin had started to grow into an empire

----------------------

By all means suggest any other ruler to the east of Benin, since you are particularly interested in the mention of "east".

You talk about Nupe or Igala, however,
- Nupe is not east but north. that eliminates it leaving Igala.
- Every reference to Igala in Edo state is also pointing their location as North. Even the Akoko Edo people who are north of Bini still point to Igala as north. But let's excuse this seeing as if we want to be exact, it would be northeast.
But the question is - What connection or history points us to any reason a 15th century Omonoba would need to send emissaries to the Atta of Igala?
For ife, we can look to the fact that the oba of Benin traces his ancestry to the ruler of ife. But to the ruler of Igala? Why?
Perhaps Benin was conquered by Igala and that's an omitted backstory to the Benin-Igala war??
Highly unlikely though as I said earlier this was when the Ọba of Benin was growing in power. 1486 should have been after Ewuare's reign or at best towards the end of his reign... Are you saying Ewuare or his sons Ezoti, Olua and Ozolua were sending emissaries to Attah of Igala who had no ancestral connection with them?
And isn't the Atta known also as "Atta" in Bini language? I don't know but if the attah isn't known in Bini with a name similar to the Portuguese "ogane" then doesn't that also eliminate Igala?

samuk:
The Ogane story told by the Benin ambassador to the European in 1485 could have been an allegory of the spiritual journey that every new Oba of Benin took.

The bible is filled with such allegories. The story of Job is one of such. I wouldn't be surprised if most Nigerians literally believe the story of job as an event that happened.

Whether it is allegory o, or a drunkards tale or actual facts

The best candidate for that name "ogane" and the relationship shared between ogane and the oba of Benin is the Ooni

macof:


Whether it is allegory o, or a drunkards tale or actual facts

The best candidate for that name "ogane" and the relationship shared between ogane and the oba of Benin is the Ooni

Firstly, you assume that Ogane is a corruption of Oghene.

Secondly, the location doesn't fit. Ogane is east whilst Ooni is west.

Thirdly, the travelling time from Benin to Ife couldn't have been almost 2 years.

Fourthly, the history of Oduduwa/Ife from where Ooni is derived started as a myth in the 1800s, some Yoruba historical accounts even says Oduduwa was a female deity. In early history of the Yoruba as told by the likes of Samuel Johnson, C. C. Law, Oduduwa is heavily conflicting. No evidence that he actually lived as human.

Fifthly, there are no concrete evidence that Benin/Ife relationship goes early than 1897.

Benin history of her relationship with Oduduwa, Oranmiyan and Ife are not in agreement with Yoruba claims.

Benin is claiming Oduduwa as a Benin prince, whilst Yoruba history is either claiming Oduduwa as a Saudi Arabia, Egyptian/middle eastern prince or recently as 2010 a native of Ife.

samuk:


Firstly, you assume that Ogane is a corruption of Oghene.

Secondly, the location doesn't fit. Ogane is east whilst Ooni is west.

Thirdly, the travelling time from Benin to Ife couldn't have been almost 2 years.

Fourthly, the history of Oduduwa/Ife from where Ooni is derived started as a myth in the 1800s, some Yoruba historical accounts even says Oduduwa was a female deity. In early history of the Yoruba as told by the likes of Samuel Johnson, C. C. Law, Oduduwa is heavily conflicting. No evidence that he actually lived as human.

Fifthly, there are no concrete evidence that Benin/Ife relationship goes early than 1897.

Benin history of her relationship with Oduduwa, Oranmiyan and Ife are not in agreement with Yoruba claims.

Benin is claiming Oduduwa as a Benin prince, whilst Yoruba history is either claiming Oduduwa as a Saudi Arabia, Egyptian/middle eastern prince or recently as 2010 a native of Ife.

I assume "ogane" is oghene because we know that "ogane" is a Portuguese corruption of what they heard in Bini
So what ruler is known by a name similar to "ogane" - I can bet the only one you can mention is Oghene

You have a brain, you can deduce things by being logical, you don't have to be told everything word for word before you know what is what

So unless there's another ruler somewhere known by a name similar to "ogane" you have nothing to say samuk.

Oh, 20 months journey from Benin to the domain of Ogane too long to be Ife but you can entertain the idea that it is Igala? Even though Idah is closer to Benin city? Lol. Yoruba paranoia

@bold. You are just contradicting yourself

macof:


I assume "ogane" is oghene because we know that "ogane" is a Portuguese corruption of what they heard in Bini
So what ruler is known by a name similar to "ogane" - I can bet the only one you can mention is Oghene

You have a brain, you can deduce things by being logical, you don't have to be told everything word for word before you know what is what

So unless there's another ruler somewhere known by a name similar to "ogane" you have nothing to say samuk.

Oh, 20 months journey from Benin to the domain of Ogane and back to Benin seems too long to be Ife but you can entertain the idea that it is Igala? Even though Idah is closer to Benin city? Lol. Yoruba paranoia

@bold. You are just contradicting yourself

Benin name, Oghene 'n' uhe (god of Ife people) for the Ooni of Ife only came into Benin lexicon after 1897 when Benin came into contact with Ife. There is no evidence that Benin had anything to do with Ife before 1897.

samuk:


Benin name Oghene 'n' uhe (god of Ife people) for the Ooni of Ife only came into Benin lexicon after 1897 when Benin came into contact with Ife. There is no evidence that Benin had anything to do with Ife before 1897.

Lol

Make Sure to Read Every Single Word:

I find that there is a huge gap between you and those from Benin on here. Why is that so? Anyways, I would carry on because you get what I’m saying. Lol.

But before proceeding to address each question you raised, I would point out that the journal you read on jstor is Ryder(1965). I have also read it — many times.

As at the date of his publication, Ryder buttresses his case also with some iconographic arguments.

However such arguments, are by their very nature a tentative one — that is, they fail immediately a next find turns up whatever wasn’t available to him at the time of his writing.

In any case, your approach (which even you may not have noticed) has been that, if A.F.C. Ryder provides information on finds (even without any photos — as there are no photos in the article) then such finds, in your judgement, must be true based on his scholarly and academic integrity. And I agree with that for any scholar and scholarly peer-reviewed work.

But your inconsistency is that if others like (R. Horton, F. Willett, S. P. Blier, etc.) all say that, since 1967, there has been certain finds from Ife, then such — to you — is probably not true unless you see a photo.

At this juncture, you must have gotten the point I am making about inconsistency. You should actually fix it going forward.

In any case, if you had asked for photos just for the sake of photos (to please the eyes, etc. rather than as the evidence in and of itself), that would have been a separate story. Anyways, I have been able to lay my hands on some of such photos. Now to the actual points raised.

Abohboy:
I also read that terracotta in Ife has cross symbols but there's no evidence for this please kindly provide images

Like I noted earlier, the presence of cross symbols in Ife art is NOT fundamental to the identification of the Ogane as Ooni. Why? Because their dispatch was not from Benin to Ife, but the other way round.

However, I agree that the knowledge of such symbols in Ife would bolster the evidence on ground for Ooni as the Ogané — but its absence does not undermine it in any way. I hope you get this.

However, we read from Robin Horton’s work as cited earlier that “we now have several examples of the Maltese-cross symbols on terracotta materials excavated at Ife.*”

And Robin Horton cited the works in which the finds have turned up, viz. Frank Willett’s “New Light on the Ife-Benin Relationship,” African Forum, Vol. 3, No. 4/ Vol. 4, No. 1, 1970., etc.

But for the sake of pleasing your eyes, one of such is attached in the 1st screenshot below. This can be seen in page 161 of Suzanne. P. Blier’s “Art and Risk in Ancient Yoruba (2015)”.

and it still doesn't make sense that it took over a year to go from Benin City To Ife a time of 5 months would make more sense even if they're moving slowly

Your suggestion here is based purely on your subjective inclination. It is not rooted in any objectivity whatsoever, and I would explain why.

If you turn your pages of Ryder’s article to p.27., you would find that based on traditional informants it took an average of 5 months for people — in the past — to journey from Uromi in Ishan to Benin city over a course of some 50 miles.

With such information, you must then pause & reason that their trekking convention must thus have been different from whatever you’re imagining at the time of typing that comment.

So, if you start with this traditional information about an Uromi-Benin trip (which as expected incorporates traditional trekking conventions), you will necessarily reach the inevitable conclusion of roughly 20 moons for a Benin-Ife trip.

So, do the Math yourself. Uromi-Benin and Benin-Ife can not both be a 5 months journey traditionally.

Moreover, the footnote 10 of that same article you read shows the result of a relatively modern-day interview conducted with the Binis by Bradbury during his field-work.

And what they remember of any such ancient trip to Ife as passed down to them by traditions is that it took some 3 years round trip.

Here we have another separate confirmation (a direct one at that) for the timespan mentioned in the source material vis-a-via the Ogané.

in any case I read a journal on Jstor and it says ambassadors normally were given cat whisker markings after visiting the Oghane

No, the article doesn’t say anywhere that they were given cat whisker markings after visiting.

Before clarifying what the article says, I should clarify that there is no mention of cat-whisker at all in any of the source materials we’re looking at (e.g. the one you posted which is the ‘only’ detailed one).

Now, Ryder was simply suggesting (a very logical one) that the messengers to the Ogane from Benin must have been people with the cat’s whisker marks.

His reason for this suggestion makes sense, however he then on the basis of this said that messengers from the Ogane to Benin may have had such marks too. He had no evidence for this second part.

In any case, whether or whether not the messengers from Benin had cat’s whisker marks as suggested by Ryder, that the messengers are from Benin isn’t to be debated. The primary source is clear on that.

As such, his search for such check marks in Ife arts is NOT fundamental to the identification of the Ogane as Ooni whatsoever. The messengers aren’t said to be from Ife.

However, I would readily agree that the knowledge of such marks in classical Ife would bolster the evidence on ground for Ooni as the Ogané — but its absence does not undermine it in any way. I hope you get this.

More so, we read from R. Horton’s work cited earlier that “Again, we now have several examples of the “cat’s-whisker” facial mark on terracotta heads excavated at “classical” Ife sites. And the presence of this mark vitiates yet another [of Ryder’s] argument.*”

And Robin Horton cited the works in which the finds have turned up, viz. Frank Willett’s Ife in the History of West African Sculpture, London 1967., etc.

But for the sake of pleasing your eyes, two of such are attached in the 2nd and 3rd screenshots below.

These can be seen in page 80 of Blier’s “Art in Ancient Ife (2012)”; & page 239 of her “Art and Risk in Ancient Yoruba (2015)” respectively, etc.

and terracotta like this has only been sighted once in Ife meanwhile in Nupe and igala land it is used and seen a lot more

A.F.C. Ryder’s tentative statement has been set aside by finds that subsequently came to light as seen in the attached.

i'm not disputing that it's not the Ooni but I just want to look at every single possibility

I understand, and your questions is now answered.

In any case, look again at each of the details given in the primary source, and then query (in the light of the evidence here and on page 1) where all (not one/two) are met simultaneously.

Only in Ife and its king, the Ọɣọni (Ọghẹnẹ in Bini from where the Portuguese transcribed as Ogané).

Peace!

Cc: Blakjewelry, macof

macof:

Lol

Are you aware that there are alternatives Benin historical accounts that traces Uhe which you guys now call Ife to the Niger Benue Confluence.

macof:

Lol

So your justification is base on name similarities.....

TAO11:
Make Sure to Read Every Single Word:

I find that there is a huge gap between you and those from Benin on here. Why is that so? Anyways, I would carry on because you get what I’m saying. Lol.

But before proceeding to address each question you raised, I would point out that the journal you read on jstor is Ryder(1965). I have also read it — many times.

As at the date of his publication, Ryder buttresses his case also with some iconographic arguments.

However such arguments, are by their very nature a tentative one — that is, they fall once subsequent finds turn up whatever wasn’t available to him at the time of his writing.

In any case, your approach (which even you may not have noticed) has been that if A.F.C. Ryder provides an information on finds (even without any photos as there are no photos in the article), then such finds, in your judgement, must be true based on his scholarly and academic integrity. And I agree with that for any scholar and scholarly peer-reviewed work.

But your inconsistency is that if others like (R. Horton, F. Willett, S. P. Blier, etc.) all say that, since 1967, there have been certain finds from Ife, then such — to you — is probably not true unless you see a photo.

At this juncture, you must have gotten the point I am making about inconsistency. You should actually fix that going forward.

In any case, if you had asked for photos just for the sake of photos (to please the eyes, etc. rather than as the evidence in and of itself), that would have been a separate story. Anyways, I have been able to lay my hands on some of such photos. Now to the actual points raised.


Like I noted earlier, the presence of cross symbols in Ife art is NOT fundamental to the identification of the Ogane as Ooni. Why? Because their dispatch was not from Benin to Ife, but the other way round.

However, I agree that the knowledge of such symbols in Ife would bolster the evidence on ground for Ooni as the Ogané — but its absence does not undermine it in any way. I hope you get this.

However, we read from Robin Horton’s work as cited earlier that “we now have several examples of the Maltese-cross symbols on terracotta materials excavated at Ife.*”

And Robin Horton cited the works in which the finds have turned up, viz. Frank Willett’s “New Light on the Ife-Benin Relationship,” African Forum, Vol. 3, No. 4/ Vol. 4, No. 1, 1970., etc.

But for the sake of pleasing your eyes, one of such is attached in the 1st screenshot below. This can be seen in page 183 of Suzanne. P. Blier’s “Art and Risk in Ancient Yoruba (2015)”.

Your suggestion here is based purely on your subjective inclination. It is not rooted in any objectivity whatsoever, and I would explain why.

If you turn your pages of Ryder’s article to p.27., you would find that based on traditional informants it took an average of 5 months for people — in the past — to journey from Uromi in Ishan to Benin city over a course of some 50 miles.

With such information, you must then pause & reason that their trekking convention must thus have been different from whatever you’re imagining at the time of typing that comment.

So, if you start with this traditional information about an Uromi-Benin trip (which as expected incorporates traditional trekking conventions), you will necessarily reach the inevitable conclusion of roughly 20 moons for a Benin-Ife trip.

So, do the Math yourself. Uromi-Ishan and Benin-Ife can not both be a 5 months journey traditionally.

Moreover, the footnote 10 of that same article you read shows the result of a relatively modern-day interview conducted with the Binis by Bradbury during his field-work.

And what they remember of any such ancient trip to Ife as passed down to them by traditions is that it took some 3 years round trip.

Here we have another separate confirmation (a direct one at that) for the timespan mentioned in the source material vis-a-via the Ogané.

No, the article doesn’t say anywhere that they were given cat whisker markings after visiting.

Before clarifying what the article says, I should clarify that there is no mention of cat-whisker at all in any of the source materials we’re looking at (e.g. the one you posted which is the ‘only’ detailed one).

Now, Ryder was simply suggesting (a very logical one) that the messengers to the Ogane from Benin must have been people with the cat’s whisker marks.

His reason for this suggestion makes sense, however he then on the basis of this said that messengers from the Ogane to Benin may have had such marks too. He had no evidence for this second part.

In any case, whether or whether not the messengers from Benin had cat’s whisker marks as suggested by Ryder, that the messengers are from Benin isn’t to be debated. The primary source is clear on that.

As such, his search for such check marks in Ife arts is NOT fundamental to the identification of the Ogane as Ooni whatsoever. The messengers aren’t said to be from Ife.

However, I would readily agree that the knowledge of such marks in classical Ife would bolster the evidence on ground for Ooni as the Ogané — but its absence does not undermine it in any way. I hope you get this.

More so, we read from R. Horton’s work cited earlier that “Again, we now have several examples of the “cat’s-whisker” facial mark on terracotta heads excavated at “classical” Ife sites. And the presence of this mark vitiates yet another [of Ryder’s] argument.*”

And Robin Horton cited the works in which the finds have turned up, viz. Frank Willett’s Ife in the History of West African Sculpture, London 1967., etc.

But for the sake of pleasing your eyes, two of such are attached in the 2nd and 3rd screenshots below.

These can be seen in page 80 of Blier’s “Art in Ancient Ife (2012)”; & page 262 of her “Art and Risk in Ancient Yoruba (2015)” respectively, etc.


A.F.C. Ryder’s tentative statement has been set aside by finds that came to light as seen in the attached.

I understand, and your questions have been answered.

In any case, look again at each of the details given in the primary source and ask (in the light of the evidence here and on page 1) where all (not one/two) is met simultaneously.

Only in Ife and its king, the Ọɣọni (Ọghẹnẹ in Bini from where the Portuguese transcribed as Ogané).

Peace!

Cc: Blakjewelry, macof

This week I will focus specially on this Ryder of a guy and his works and while most of your references are from the the period of 1950 to present

KingOKON:
This week I will focus specially on this Ryder of a guy and his works and while most of your references are from the the period of 1950 to present

This one has no clue what’s going on. Lol. By the way, Ryder was arguing in your favour — although he also expressed doubts over his own arguments.

But his arguments have been respectfully set aside by the consensus of historical scholarship in the world today — due to major howlers.

FYI: There is no ongoing debate today (among experts the world over) on the identity of the Ogané.

The Ogané has been unanimously identified today by scholars as the Ooni of Ife — based on evidence.

And there are no historical research in Nigeria in the 1800s. There is no university then sef. Traders, et al. who visited are not historians. They only obtained statements from the locals.

And the statements they got from the locals are only recently being examined by historians the world over.

Peace!

TAO11:

This one has no clue what’s going on. Lol. By the way, Ryder was arguing in your favour.

But his arguments have been respectfully set aside by the consensus of historical scholarship in the world today — due to major howlers.

FYI: There is no ongoing debate today (among experts the world over) on the identity of the Ogané. The Ogané has been unanimously identified today by scholars as the Ooni of Ife.

And there are no historical research in Nigeria in the 1800s. There is no university then sef. Traders, et al. who visited are not historians.

They only collected & gathered statements from the locals. And the statements they gathered from locals are only recently being examined in modern times by historians all over the world.

Peace!

Scholars will come and teach me my history, scholars ni scholars ko!

I am focusing on him with open mind, you don't have to be vindictive and negative all the time

KingOKON:
Scholars will come and teach me my history, scholars ni scholars ko!

I am focusing on him with open mind, you don't have to be vindictive and negative all the time

You are right, and facts are wrong. Lol. /s

Does that help you sleep?

Peace.

KingOKON:


So your justification is base on name similarities.....

there are only 2 details that make us know that João Afonso d'Aveiro was not making it up

1. He mentions a recognisable name
2. He describes the shape of one of the gifts (the brass Cross) which has been seen on Benin art depictions and Ife excavation

Every other thing is secondary compared to these two

So if I were you, I would do well to take name drops seriously

samuk:


Are you aware that there are alternatives Benin historical accounts that traces Uhe which you guys now call Ife to the Niger Benue Confluence.

Mr. Man forget alternative accounts. Focus on traditional accounts
This is how you youth have been misled, you focus on stories and not the pieces that make up or compliment stories, hence you cannot and do not know when a story is traditionally accurate or just a recent fabrication.

KingOKON:


Scholars will come and teach me my history, scholars ni scholars ko!

I am focusing on him with open mind, you don't have to be vindictive and negative all the time

I believe he was one of those that said Benin/Ife relationship is a recent narrative that is strange to early Europeans who visited Benin.

The primary source for this kind of argument is the Palace which is still in existence. There is nothing in Benin oral history to support the story. If Benin used to make this trip to Ife, when and why did it stopped.

The main reason Yoruba people are going to find it difficult to convince unbiased minds is the location. It's completely in the opposite direction.

Excerpt From The Above Reply To @Abohboy:

“••• Moreover, the footnote 10 of that same article you read shows the result of a relatively MODERN-day interview conducted with the Binis by Bradbury during his field-work.

And what they remember of any ancient trip to IFE as passed down to them by traditions is that it took some 3 years round trip.

Here we have another separate confirmation (a direct one at that) for the timespan mentioned in the source material vis-a-via the Ogané. •••”

PS — The Logic/Math:
(1) Round trip (per modern interview) took 3years.

(2) 3years are equivalent to 1095.75days (i.e. 3years * 365.25days per year).

(3) 1095.75days are equivalent to 40.11moons (i.e. 1095.75days / 27.322days per moon).

(4) 40.11moons round trip is equivalent to 20.1moons’ Benin-Ife trip (i.e. 40.11moons / 2ways).

This information from a modern-day Benin interview also confirms the 1400s interview & the earlier Math.

IFE is indeed the Ogane’s place from where dawn/sun-rise comes — ibi [tí] ojúmọ́ ti ń mọ́ wá.

Peace!

samuk:


Firstly, you assume that Ogane is a corruption of Oghene.

Secondly, the location doesn't fit. Ogane is east whilst Ooni is west.

Thirdly, the travelling time from Benin to Ife couldn't have been almost 2 years.

Fourthly, the history of Oduduwa/Ife from where Ooni is derived started as a myth in the 1800s, some Yoruba historical accounts even says Oduduwa was a female deity. In early history of the Yoruba as told by the likes of Samuel Johnson, C. C. Law, Oduduwa is heavily conflicting. No evidence that he actually lived as human.

Fifthly, there are no concrete evidence that Benin/Ife relationship goes early than 1897.

Benin history of her relationship with Oduduwa, Oranmiyan and Ife are not in agreement with Yoruba claims.

Benin is claiming Oduduwa as a Benin prince, whilst Yoruba history is either claiming Oduduwa as a Saudi Arabia, Egyptian/middle eastern prince or recently as 2010 a native of Ife.

Oduduwa as an egyptian or middle eastern comes much later in the 1900s Oduduwa as a native of Ife or a God is proper history from the Odu Ifa meanwhile the relationship between Benin and Ife is clear because specific garments and crowns worn in Ife are seen in benin artworks as well and such a link cannot be made without physical contact and trade between the two groups

TAO11:
Make Sure to Read Every Single Word:

I find that there is a huge gap between you and those from Benin on here. Why is that so? Anyways, I would carry on because you get what I’m saying. Lol.

But before proceeding to address each question you raised, I would point out that the journal you read on jstor is Ryder(1965). I have also read it — many times.

As at the date of his publication, Ryder buttresses his case also with some iconographic arguments.

However such arguments, are by their very nature a tentative one — that is, they fail immediately a next find turns up whatever wasn’t available to him at the time of his writing.

In any case, your approach (which even you may not have noticed) has been that, if A.F.C. Ryder provides information on finds (even without any photos — as there are no photos in the article) then such finds, in your judgement, must be true based on his scholarly and academic integrity. And I agree with that for any scholar and scholarly peer-reviewed work.

But your inconsistency is that if others like (R. Horton, F. Willett, S. P. Blier, etc.) all say that, since 1967, there has been certain finds from Ife, then such — to you — is probably not true unless you see a photo.

At this juncture, you must have gotten the point I am making about inconsistency. You should actually fix it going forward.

In any case, if you had asked for photos just for the sake of photos (to please the eyes, etc. rather than as the evidence in and of itself), that would have been a separate story. Anyways, I have been able to lay my hands on some of such photos. Now to the actual points raised.


Like I noted earlier, the presence of cross symbols in Ife art is NOT fundamental to the identification of the Ogane as Ooni. Why? Because their dispatch was not from Benin to Ife, but the other way round.

However, I agree that the knowledge of such symbols in Ife would bolster the evidence on ground for Ooni as the Ogané — but its absence does not undermine it in any way. I hope you get this.

However, we read from Robin Horton’s work as cited earlier that “we now have several examples of the Maltese-cross symbols on terracotta materials excavated at Ife.*”

And Robin Horton cited the works in which the finds have turned up, viz. Frank Willett’s “New Light on the Ife-Benin Relationship,” African Forum, Vol. 3, No. 4/ Vol. 4, No. 1, 1970., etc.

But for the sake of pleasing your eyes, one of such is attached in the 1st screenshot below. This can be seen in page 183 of Suzanne. P. Blier’s “Art and Risk in Ancient Yoruba (2015)”.

Your suggestion here is based purely on your subjective inclination. It is not rooted in any objectivity whatsoever, and I would explain why.

If you turn your pages of Ryder’s article to p.27., you would find that based on traditional informants it took an average of 5 months for people — in the past — to journey from Uromi in Ishan to Benin city over a course of some 50 miles.

With such information, you must then pause & reason that their trekking convention must thus have been different from whatever you’re imagining at the time of typing that comment.

So, if you start with this traditional information about an Uromi-Benin trip (which as expected incorporates traditional trekking conventions), you will necessarily reach the inevitable conclusion of roughly 20 moons for a Benin-Ife trip.

So, do the Math yourself. Uromi-Ishan and Benin-Ife can not both be a 5 months journey traditionally.

Moreover, the footnote 10 of that same article you read shows the result of a relatively modern-day interview conducted with the Binis by Bradbury during his field-work.

And what they remember of any such ancient trip to Ife as passed down to them by traditions is that it took some 3 years round trip.

Here we have another separate confirmation (a direct one at that) for the timespan mentioned in the source material vis-a-via the Ogané.

No, the article doesn’t say anywhere that they were given cat whisker markings after visiting.

Before clarifying what the article says, I should clarify that there is no mention of cat-whisker at all in any of the source materials we’re looking at (e.g. the one you posted which is the ‘only’ detailed one).

Now, Ryder was simply suggesting (a very logical one) that the messengers to the Ogane from Benin must have been people with the cat’s whisker marks.

His reason for this suggestion makes sense, however he then on the basis of this said that messengers from the Ogane to Benin may have had such marks too. He had no evidence for this second part.

In any case, whether or whether not the messengers from Benin had cat’s whisker marks as suggested by Ryder, that the messengers are from Benin isn’t to be debated. The primary source is clear on that.

As such, his search for such check marks in Ife arts is NOT fundamental to the identification of the Ogane as Ooni whatsoever. The messengers aren’t said to be from Ife.

However, I would readily agree that the knowledge of such marks in classical Ife would bolster the evidence on ground for Ooni as the Ogané — but its absence does not undermine it in any way. I hope you get this.

More so, we read from R. Horton’s work cited earlier that “Again, we now have several examples of the “cat’s-whisker” facial mark on terracotta heads excavated at “classical” Ife sites. And the presence of this mark vitiates yet another [of Ryder’s] argument.*”

And Robin Horton cited the works in which the finds have turned up, viz. Frank Willett’s Ife in the History of West African Sculpture, London 1967., etc.

But for the sake of pleasing your eyes, two of such are attached in the 2nd and 3rd screenshots below.

These can be seen in page 80 of Blier’s “Art in Ancient Ife (2012)”; & page 262 of her “Art and Risk in Ancient Yoruba (2015)” respectively, etc.


A.F.C. Ryder’s tentative statement has been set aside by finds that came to light as seen in the attached.

I understand, and your questions have been answered.

In any case, look again at each of the details given in the primary source and ask (in the light of the evidence here and on page 1) where all (not one/two) is met simultaneously.

Only in Ife and its king, the Ọɣọni (Ọghẹnẹ in Bini from where the Portuguese transcribed as Ogané).

Peace!

Cc: Blakjewelry, macof

Good to see a cross from Ife and yes there is a need for the crosses to be found in Ife because they were made there and given to messengers it would only make sense that where they're given would also be where they're produced if they're not produced in Ife then where were they produced and why is this information not provided?

Abohboy:
Good to see a cross from Ife and yes there is a need for the crosses to be found in Ife because they were made there and given to messengers it would only make sense that where they're given would also be where they're produced if they're not produced in Ife then where were they produced and why is this information not provided?

Cool!

But the point I was making was that if they were made for that sole purpose — that is, for the sole purpose of confirming Benin kings; then their non-usage in Ife is consistent. The Ooni doesn’t have to use the same symbol used by his dependency.

That’s the point I was making earlier. In any case, their presence at IFE [as “several examples” are now found since the 1960s, one photo of which I’ve shown) simply adds to the evidence already on ground for IFE as the place of the Ogané — and Ọɣọni as the Ogané.

However, it’s good to see that you’re glad to see photo rather than ‘trust’ scholars after Ryder who note that “several examples” of such finds turned up at Ife. But I was just curious that you didn’t hold Ryder to same “photo” standard when he said there is a cross symbol on a Nupe (Tada) art as you claimed he said.

In any case, I am pleased to find that your contentions were answered to your satisfaction.

In other words, each of the details given in that source material you posted is simultaneously met in no other place/ruler than IFẹ̀/Ọ̀ɣọ̀ni throughout the ‘Guinea’.

IFẹ̀, ibi [tí] ojúmọ́ ti ń mọ́ wá. Peace.

Cc: Blakjewelry
—————
Screenshot Reference:
Adam Knobler, 2016.

[

Abohboy:


Good to see a cross from Ife and yes there is a need for the crosses to be found in Ife because they were made there and given to messengers it would only make sense that where they're given would also be where they're produced if they're not produced in Ife then where were they produced and why is this information not provided?

Guy I swear you be questionnaire, Once the story don dae get K leg know it is probably not right.

Let me shock you of all the Edo and Edoids groups who use Oghene to refer to Almighty God, Benin is the Only one that use it also in reference to Ife(that is if it was probably gotten from Eastern yorubaland, it should be in the lexicon of other Edoids in reference to the Ooni, this already destroyed the fact it was borrowed alongside with the widespread of usage among Edoids groups, one don't need a soothsayer to know it is indigenous to Edoids groups and was not borrowed. It is used by Urhobo/Isoko, Bini, Etsako and I think Esan.

This one is not even shocking enough but to think that a group like Esan that is closest to Bini and many of their clans migrated from her during this present dynasty (Ewuare and Esigie's reign)can't even relate to the Bini/Ife tale in their Orals at all is even more shocking to show you how recent the concocted tale is, (when we make mention of this tale we sound strange to them.it is was probably an allegory or something, If it is true they should be able to relate with it as most of their clans migrated during the present dynasty . Their plan is to tie strongly to that tale just to gain prominence

Abohboy:


Oduduwa as an egyptian or middle eastern comes much later in the 1900s Oduduwa as a native of Ife or a God is proper history from the Odu Ifa meanwhile the relationship between Benin and Ife is clear because specific garments and crowns worn in Ife are seen in benin artworks [/b]as well and such a link cannot be made without physical contact and trade between the two groups

Sorry, you got this completely wrong, I am sure [b]TAO11 will not even make this claim. I challenge her to contradict me.


Oduduwa written historical accounts


If what I have written below are new to you, then, you still have a lot of readings to do on Yoruba history and I am afraid you are going to be easily misled here on nairaland due to what I see as huge gaps in your historical knowledge.

Follow me:

One of, if not the earliest written accounts of Oduduwa wasn't even by the Yoruba, it was by Sultan Bello in early 1800s, I believe around 1824, and he traces Oduduwa origin to the middle east/Saudi Arabia.

One of, if not the first Yoruba to document the history of Yoruba is Samuel Johnson in 1897, he also traces Oduduwa to the middle east but argued in the direction of Egypt.

Oduduwa being a native of Ife was written around 2010 and it's the most recent of the three accounts, even the Benin version of Oduduwa being a Benin prince, documented in the 1970s, is older in documentation than Oduduwa being a native of Ife.

Odu Ifa is myths subject to native interpretations, are we discussing history or myths. Incase you are new here, we don't dwell so much on myths and oral accounts here because of the ways the stories can easily be manipulated and misrepresented.

If you want to use odu Ifa to find the answer to your question, search no further because someone will soon come out to give the odu IFA answer.

I call on TAO11 and macof to contradict my claims above. because it seems you guys have been mis informing Abohboy[/b

[b]specific garments and crowns worn in Ife are seen in benin artworks

Were did you get the above from, which garments and crowns worn in Ife are seen in Benin artworks. Come back with answers.

Are you saying there are Ife artworks that depicts similar garments and crowns as Benin artworks? What exactly are you saying, again I call on TAO11 and macof to help Abohboy to answer these questions.

PS: It was the Fulani that conquered parts of Yoruba that were one of, if not the earliest Nigeria writers of Yoruba/Oduduwa history. It was after Yoruba learned how to read and write, they started reversing their history and also started stealing and incorporating Benin history into their history. This Ogane is one of such attempts to suggest that Benin was one time under a none existent Ife kingdom.

@Abohboy,

Please let me know if you need any clarification vis-a-vis the laughable comment right above me and right below me so I could clarify and expose the comments for the crap that they are.

If not, then I would take it that you’re also aware that the comments are nothing but the crap that they are.

But I’m glad you got clarification as requested earlier as per the Ogané subject. ✌

Cheers.
Cc: macof

I am waiting patiently for the lady above me to contradict my claims

Anyone out there can independently confirm for themselves what I have written about Oduduwa history, Google is your friend. You can start your search by typing Sultan Bello history of Oduduwa. Do the same for Samuel Johnson and the rest.

You don't have to rely on anyone to mis inform you.

The Fulani Sultan Bello used his history of Oduduwa being from the middle east/Saudi Arabia to convert millions of Yoruba including countless Yoruba Obas to Islam. There are probably more Yoruba muslims today than Yoruba Christians.

The Fulani used force in place like Ilorin to bring Yoruba under their rule and used religion and their early history of Oduduwa being from Saudi Arabia to convert other parts of Yoruba land to Islam.

Today the Sultan of Sokoto remains the spiritual leader of more than half the population of Yoruba and their Obas. The Sultan of Sokoto is the one that have to sight the moon before every Muslim in Nigeria can start Muslim festivities.

The Sultan of Sokoto is the spiritual leader of more Yoruba than the Ooni is. How many of Yoruba worship Ifa today? The Ooni is the spiritual leader of IFA and less Yoruba worship ifa, Yoruba are mostly Muslims under the Sultan of Sokoto.

Yoruba muslim Obas have to wait for the Sultan of Sokoto to sight the moon and give instructions and go ahead before they can start their muslims festivities.

How many Yoruba Obas take spiritual directives from the Ooni.

macof:
there are only 2 details that make us know that João Afonso d'Aveiro was not making it up

1. He mentions a recognisable name
2. He describes the shape of one of the gifts (the brass Cross) which has been seen on Benin art depictions and Ife excavation

Every other thing is secondary compared to these two

So if I were you, I would do well to take name drops seriously

.

Really...
I will like to know from you if 1. Joao Afonso d'Aveiro mentioned any said location and
2. was he the only persons that mentioned a * RECONIZABLE name and GIFTS depicting Benin Ife cross symbol up until 1895