Kobojunkie:
Check the reference again.

Apologies, the correct reference is Galatians 4 v 21-31. It speaks of two covenants and that believers in Christ are partakers of the new covenant.

Kobojunkie, it’s mutually exclusive a believer in Christ cannot partake of the old and new Covenant. The old covenant is done away with.

OkCornel:
1. Zero correlation. You earlier admitted not only Jews would be killed in the great tribulation. However in Revelation 7 v 9-10 & 13-14, it clearly mentioned the multitude is every believer that came out of the great tribulation, and this multitude will serve God day and night in his temple.

2. Are you now telling us the multitude which represents saints that came out of the great tribulation are only Jews?Is this a joke?

1. So you are insinuating that Isaiah was wrong in insisting that the ones who return from all Nations to the temple of God at Jerusalem where they worship God are not in fact sons and daughters of Israel?

2. What is not said of the multitude in the context of Revelations 7 is that they are God's holy people aka Priests.

14 I answered, “You know who they are, sir.”
And the elder said, “These are the ones who have come out of the great suffering. They have washed their robes[a] with the blood of the Lamb, and they are clean and white.
15 So now these people are before the throne of God. They worship God day and night in his temple. And the one who sits on the throne will protect them.
16 They will never be hungry again. They will never be thirsty again. The sun will not hurt them. No heat will burn them.
17 The Lamb in front of the throne will be their shepherd. He will lead them to springs of water that give life. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” - Revelations 7 vs 14 - 17

That assumption seems wholly yours.

Also they came out of the great suffering doesn't necessarily mean they all experienced the great suffering now, does it?

Again, about your ideas of the great tribulation, that is a topic for another day. Let's simply focus on what is in fact written instead.

OkCornel:
Apologies, the correct reference is Galatians 4 v 21-31. It speaks of two covenants and that believers in Christ are partakers of the new covenant.

Kobojunkie, it’s mutually exclusive a believer in Christ cannot partake of the old and new Covenant. The old covenant is done away with.

And to that, I remind you that God and Jesus Christ made it abundantly clear that God's Covenants are eternally binding meaning that both are still alive even to this day.

The Old Covenant is the Constitution of the Nation of Israel formed by God in the land of Canaan. If indeed that Covenant has been done away with by God, then there would be no Israel and no Jerusalem and no temple for God in the future to lay claims to.

Kobojunkie:
1. So you are insinuating that Isaiah was wrong in insisting that the ones who return from all Nations to the temple of God at Jerusalem where they worship God are not in fact sons and daughters of Israel?

2. What is not said of the multitude in the context of Revelations 7 is that they are God's holy people aka Priests.
That assumption seems wholly yours.

Read Isaiah 60 slowly, the scene of that prophecy is on earth at the start of the millennial reign of Christ.

Revelation 7 v 9-14 happens in heaven. All the tribulation saints who paid with their lives are standing before the throne of God, the lamb, the four living creatures and the 24 elders.

Isaiah isn’t wrong, you are the one trying to correlate unrelated events.

Kobojunkie:
And to that, I remind you that God and Jesus Christ made it abundantly clear that God's Covenants are eternally binding meaning that both are still alive even to this day.

Does the old covenant apply to believers in Jesus Christ for redemption ? Yes or no.

OkCornel:
Does the old covenant apply to believers in Jesus Christ? Yes or no.

The Old Covenant is the Constitution of the Nation of Israel formed by God in the land of Canaan. If indeed that Covenant has been done away with by God, then there would be no Israel and no Jerusalem and no temple for God in the future to lay claims to. God would have absolutely no right to lay claims of Israel or Jerusalem if that law has been done away with.

As to your question... those who were formerly of the Old Covenant, and have been redeemed from it by Jesus Christ in this life, are no longer under the Old Law. However, they retain full ownership of the promises/reward of the Old Law given they have through Jesus Christ fulfilled the requirements of the Law and are hence to receive the reward that awaits all those who fulfilled the Law.

OkCornel:
Read Isaiah 60 slowly, the scene of that prophecy is on earth at the start of the millennial reign of Christ.

Revelation 7 v 9-14 happens in heaven. All the tribulation saints who paid with their lives are standing before the throne of God, the lamb, the four living creatures and the 24 elders.

Isaiah isn’t wrong, you are the one trying to correlate unrelated events.

Revelations 7 happens right here on earth. The temple referenced is the same temple in Jerusalem on this earth, and yes, it happens during the millennial reign.

Kobojunkie:
The Old Covenant is the Constitution of the Nation of Israel formed by God in the land of Canaan. If indeed that Covenant has been done away with by God, then there would be no Israel and no Jerusalem and no temple for God in the future to lay claims to. God would have absolutely no right to lay claims of Israel or Jerusalem if that law has been done away with.

As to your question... those who were formerly of the Old Covenant, and have been redeemed from it by Jesus Christ in this life, are no longer under the Old Law. However, they retain full ownership of the promises/reward of the Old Law given they have through Jesus Christ fulfilled the requirements of the Law and are hence to receive the reward that awaits all those who fulfilled the Law.

And is the old covenant Israel’s constitution today?

Are people stoned to death for crimes?

Kobojunkie:
Revelations 7 happens right here on earth, the temple referenced is the same temple in Jerusalem on this earth.

One second, you’re telling me the multitude that no one could count in Revelation 7 was standing before the throne of God on earth? Is this a joke?

And by the way, there’s also a temple in heaven which will come down after the millennial reign of Christ.

OkCornel:
And is the old covenant Israel’s constitution today? Are people stoned to death for crimes?

It remains the Constitution that God gave to His people even to this day and time. Men may have moved on from it, and even redrawn then boundaries to suit them, but God hasn't as, again, His Covenant/Constitution and agreement with Israel in the Land of Canaan, is an everlasting Covenant - Deuteronomy 30 vs 15 - 20 & Matthew 5 vs 17 - 19.

Kobojunkie:
It remains the Constitution that God gave to His people even to this day and time. Men may have moved on from it, and even redrawn then boundaries to suit them, but God hasn't as, again, His Covenant/Constitution and agreement with Israel in the Land of Canaan, is an everlasting Covenant - Deuteronomy 30 vs 15 - 20 & Matthew 5 vs 17 - 19.

Is that law obsolete today? Yes or No.

I’ll bring up Galatians 4 v 21-31

OkCornel:
One second, you’re telling me the multitude that no one could count in Revelation 7 was standing before the throne of God on earth? Is this a joke?

If In Isaiah 66 vs 1, you are told by God that Heaven is His throne room and the earth His footstool, what makes you think those who will worship before His Throne have to be in Heaven to do so?

No Joke at all. It is right here on earth that the multitude will serve God from, just as indicated in that very same chapter to you.

OkCornel:
Is that law obsolete today? Yes or No.

Again, God said in Deuteronomy 30 vs 15 - 20 that the law is eternally binding. Jesus Christ also repeated that the Law will not pass away even after Heaven and earth have passed away - Matthew 5 vs 17 - 19. Isn't the answer to your question more than obvious? Or do not believe the Word of God is at all binding?

Galatians 4 v 21-31;

21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says?

22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.

23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.

24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar.

25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children.

26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.

27 For it is written:

“Be glad, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
shout for joy and cry aloud,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.”

28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise.

29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now.

30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”

31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman

OkCornel:
I disagree, John’s vision relates to events that’ll happen in heaven.

Isaiah’s prophecy relates to events that’ll happen on earth at the start of the millennial reign of Christ.

That's not what John told you but instead what you assume of his visions instead.

Kobojunkie:
Again, God said in Deuteronomy 30 vs 15 - 20 that the law is eternally binding. Jesus Christ also repeated that the Law will not pass away even after Heaven and earth have passed away - Matthew 5 vs 17 - 19. Isn't the answer to your question more than obvious? Or do not believe the Word of God is at all binding?

The old covenant (figuratively represented as Hagar) is for those in spiritual bondage. Believers in Christ are not under spiritual bondage.

Galatians 4 v 21-31 makes it clear.

Kobojunkie:
That's not what John told you but instead what you assume of his visions instead.

So according to you, the four living creatures and the 24 elders whom the multitude was standing with are also on earth right?

God’s throne and the lamb are on earth, not in heaven right?

The souls of those killed in the great tribulation are on earth rather than heaven right?

I’m coming.

OkCornel:
Galatians 4 v 21-31;
21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says?
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.
23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.
24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar.
25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children.
26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.
27 For it is written: “Be glad, barren woman, you who never bore a child; shout for joy and cry aloud, you who were never in labor; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband.”
28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise.
29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now.
30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”
31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman

But nowhere in this context does Paul tell you that the Old Covenant has been done away with. Instead, he makes an attempt here to convince his Jewish brethren that they are of a better covenant than the Old Covenant Law of Moses.

OkCornel:
The old covenant (figuratively represented as Hagar) is for those in spiritual bondage. Believers in Christ are not under spiritual bondage.
Galatians 4 v 21-31 makes it clear.

Spiritual bondage?

This is why I say folks need to pay attention to what God says and not what men say so they do not get overly carried away with crock. Paul, in that context, makes instead what I consider a shoddy attempt at convincing his fellow Jewish brethren that they have a better deal in Jesus Christ than in staying with just the Old Covenant. How you came to take that to mean that God's Old Covenant, the Constitution He purposefully crafted and gave to Israel, His very inheritance and portion on this here earth, is beyond me.

Kobojunkie:
That's not what John told you but instead what you assume of his visions instead.

Start from Revelation 4.

Where is God’s throne, the four living creatures and the 24 elders located?

See the screenshot below for the hint.

Then explain how God’s throne, the four living creatures and the 24 elders relocated to earth in Revelation 7.

OkCornel:
So according to you, the four living creatures and the 24 elders whom the multitude was standing with are also on earth right?

God’s throne and the lamb are on earth, not in heaven right? The souls of those killed in the great tribulation are on earth rather than heaven right?

I’m coming.

Pay attention, please. The passage says the people will worship God day and night in His temple. Does not state that the four living creatures and 24 elders also worship God in the temple along with the people. The temple is here on earth - the day and night reference kind of gives that away.

How can God's throne be on earth if God Himself told you in Isaiah 66 vs 1 that Heaven is His throne room, and the earth His footstool?
And why would the Lamb who is said to sit on the right side of God be on earth? Is the right hand side of God's Throne on earth?

Kobojunkie:
But nowhere in this context does Paul tell you that the Old Covenant has been done away with. Instead, he makes an attempt here to convince his Jewish brethren that they are of a better covenant than the Old Covenant Law of Moses.

What does get rid of the bond woman which I highlighted in red mean in the context of what Paul explained?

OkCornel:
Start from Revelation 4. Where is God’s throne, the four living creatures and the 24 elders located?

See the screenshot below for the hint. Then explain how God’s throne, the four living creatures and the 24 elders relocated to earth in Revelation 7.

You are the one to explain that portion to me cause I have no idea where you get that idea from.

Kobojunkie:
Pay attention, please. The passage says the people will worship God day and night in His temple. Does not state that the four living creatures and 24 elders also worship God in the temple along with the people. The temple is here on earth - the day and night reference kind of gives that away.

How can God's throne be on earth if God Himself told you in Isaiah 66 vs 1 that Heaven is His throne room, and the earth His footstool?
And why would the Lamb who is said to sit on the right side of God be on earth?

Was the multitude standing before the throne of God in Revelation 7? Yes or No.

Where is this throne located? See screenshot for hint

They will serve as Priests in God’s temple when they’re resurrected (Revelation 20). There’s no day or night in heaven. They are standing before the throne prior to their resurrection, not serving in the temple yet as they’re yet to be resurrected. That’s their souls standing before God, not their resurrected bodies.

OkCornel:
What does get rid of the bond woman which I highlighted in red mean in the context of what Paul explained?

You would have to directly probe paul's mind for that. I instead suspect he meant that they abandon the Old Covenant for the New so they can enjoy the freedom that comes with the New Covenant along with the benefits of the Old.

Paul was speaking here to the individual Jewish believer, not on behalf of the Kingdom of God as you folks like to assume. He was not a lawgiver - not a god but just a man. He was just a follower of Jesus Christ like you or any other follower out there.

Kobojunkie:
You are the one to explain that portion to me cause I have no idea where you get that idea from.

You said Revelation 7 would happen on earth. Without reading that chapter in context.


The multitude are standing before God’s throne isn’t it?

That multitude standing before God’s throne and singing. Was this multitude in heaven singing before God? Or was this multitude on earth?

OkCornel:
1. Was the multitude standing before the throne of God in Revelation 7? Yes or No.
2. Where is this throne located? See screenshot for hint
3. They will serve as Priests in God’s temple when they’re resurrected (Revelation 20). There’s no day or night in heaven.
4. They are standing before the throne prior to their resurrection, not serving in the temple yet as they’re yet to be resurrected. That’s their souls standing before God, not their resurrected bodies.

1. According to Revelations 7 vs 9, the multitude stood before the throne of God, yes.
2. The Throne of God is in Heaven, and the earth is His footstool - Isaiah 66 vs 1.
3. Wrong! Nowhere in the context are you told that the multitude will serve as Priests to God. Instead, you are told they will worship God day and night in His temple.
4. Prior to their resurrection? Where did you get that from? Souls? bodies? what are you talking about now?

OkCornel:
1. You said Revelation 7 would happen on earth. Without reading that chapter in context.
2. The multitude are standing before God’s throne isn’t it?
3. That multitude standing before God’s throne and singing. Was this multitude in heaven singing before God? Or was this multitude on earth?

1. What I made clear as indicated in Revelations 7 vs 15 is that the multitude will worship God from here on earth.
2. Are the multitude standing on God's head or before His feet which according to God, the earth is His footstool - Isaiah 66 vs 1?
3. The multitude were obviously worshipping God and according to one of the elders, worship God day and night in His temple.

Kobojunkie:
1. According to Revelations 7 vs 9, the multitude stood before the throne of God, yes.
2. The Throne of God is in Heaven, and the earth is His footstool - Isaiah 66 vs 1.
3. Wrong! Nowhere in the context are you told that the multitude will serve as Priests to God. Instead, you are told they will worship God day and night in His temple.
4. Prior to their resurrection? Where did you get that from? Souls? bodies? what are you talking about now?

3. I can see you’re struggling with the difference between worship and serve. What do Priests do in the temple? What do worshippers do in the temple. Read it again slowly.

4. Yes, that’s the soul of those slain in the great tribulation. They are standing before the throne of God in heaven. Whilst their physical bodies are on earth awaiting resurrection (their souls and transformed bodies shall be made one again)

Revelation 6 v 9 makes it clear;
9. When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.

OkCornel:
Kobojunkie, perhaps we should also have a look at Revelation 7 v 9-10 & 13-14 too.

9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

10 And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore,
“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence

FYI tctrills

We should be done with old discussions. Let's not be regurgitating the same talking points.

Kobojunkie:
1. What I made clear as indicated in Revelations 7 vs 15 is that the multitude will worship God from here on earth.
2. Are the multitude standing on God's head or before His feet which according to God, the earth is His footstool - Isaiah 66 vs 1?
3. The multitude were obviously worshipping God and according to one of the elders, worship God day and night in His temple.

Nope, the multitude were before the throne of God in heaven saying “salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne and to the lamb”

You agreed the throne of God is in heaven. The multitude is standing before God in heaven.

Revelation 7 v 9;

9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands

Isaiah 60 is an event that’ll happen on earth and has no correlation with Revelation 7 v 9.

Unless you’re telling us the multitude no man could number standing before God are only Israelites.

OkCornel:
3. I can see you’re struggling with the difference between worship and serve. What do Priests do in the temple? What do worshippers do in the temple. Read it again slowly.

4. Yes, that’s the soul of those slain in the great tribulation. They are standing before the throne of God in heaven. Whilst their physical bodies are on earth awaiting resurrection (their souls and transformed bodies shall be made one again)

Revelation 6 v 9 makes it clear;
9. When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.

3. I am afraid I am not the one experiencing this difficulty which you claim at all.

Much the same as the people, the priests serve God in the same way the worshipers do which is by obeying given commandments from God. Priests serve God by obeying rules specific to their priesthood whereas those you consider worshippers also obey rules specific to their office in the land. They are all of them pretty much just people obeying the commandments given to them by God.

4. Soul ke? Revelations 7 makes no mention of the multitude being composed of souls, so let us not attempt to jumble this up abeg!